Questionable Content XVIII: "That's only sort of good news"

[Vinyadan]

OK, I find this whole milk confusion terrible. Once in a while, I read people talking about almond or soy milk as something interchangeable with actual milk. It was never meant to be. It's like treating coconut milk as milk. Unsurprisingly, Europe has forbidden selling something that isn't animal milk while calling it milk (allowing for exceptions based on language).

[Gez]

OK, I find this whole milk confusion terrible. Once in a while, I read people talking about almond or soy milk as something interchangeable with actual milk. It was never meant to be.

Well for what it's worth, I've used almond milk and chestnut milk instead of regular milk in pancake batter, and couldn't tell the difference.

[Keltest]

Well for what it's worth, I've used almond milk and chestnut milk instead of regular milk in pancake batter, and couldn't tell the difference.

Indeed. Where I live at least, it is both advertised as an alternative and able to be used as such, usually for people with allergies to cow milk.

[halfeye]

I am suspicious that Emmet is going to turn out to be male.

[Keltest]

I am suspicious that Emmet is going to turn out to be male.

Emmet is likely nonbinary at this point, but its more than a little annoying that nobody has just come out and said so.

[Wraith]

Points to Jeph for accuracy in today's strip - by which I mean, listening to teenagers describe entirely mundane and trivial things as drama is incredibly dull. Source: I have 3 teenage nieces and I worked in a school for 3 years, there is NOTHING too inconsequential to be used as an excuse for... anything.

Unsurprisingly, Europe has forbidden selling something that isn't animal milk while calling it milk (allowing for exceptions based on language).

Not quite true. We just have to specify what kind of milk it is - that goes for goat and sheep milk, as well as the vegan alternatives. There's virtually no such thing as "milk" without some kind of adjective or qualifier, but it's all "milk". Or at least, this is so from my experience in Britain.

As for using soy as a meat-milk alternative... you mostly can. I am particularly sensitive to the taste and prefer oat milk, if the real stuff isn't available, but most people don't really care unless it's for some kind of specialist diet or recipe.

Emmet is likely nonbinary at this point, but its more than a little annoying that nobody has just come out and said so.

I honestly think that Jeph might have forgotten to mention it out loud? Emmett has been referred to by everyone as 'they' since we first met them, but it's honestly tricky to tell if that was intentional or if Sam used the singular 'they' and everyone else followed suite. Emmett certainly hasn't specified, or objected, either way. Considering their shy and/or oblivious nature, they may not even have noticed.

[Radar]

Emmet is likely nonbinary at this point, but its more than a little annoying that nobody has just come out and said so.

Why would there be any need for that? Whether Emmet is a boy, girl or nonbinary has no consequences to the plot whatsoever and even if it was someone's concern in the QC-verse, disclosing such information is only up to Emmet. If they do not want to or just do not care about sharing that detail it's nobody's business.

[Willie the Duck]

Honestly, I have no idea what the 'right' way even is for an author to indicate the gender of a character if it isn't plot-relevant. If someone drops a him or her pronoun at some point, we can get a view at least to what those around them think it is. With they, it's not clear if they are nonbinary and prefer they or something else. FWIW, I don't think the way Jeph has handled it is notably good or bad.

OK, I find this whole milk confusion terrible. Once in a while, I read people talking about almond or soy milk as something interchangeable with actual milk. It was never meant to be. It's like treating coconut milk as milk. Unsurprisingly, Europe has forbidden selling something that isn't animal milk while calling it milk (allowing for exceptions based on language).

If Europe's situation is anything like the US, the forbiddance or allowance of '_____ milk' for milk-alternatives probably has more to do with the strength of dairy lobbying groups than anything else. Honestly, I never heard anyone have a problem with 'coconut milk' or even 'soy milk' when the former was mostly used in curries and the latter almost exclusively for people with milk allergies or lactose intolerance (and thus realistically weren't going to buy dairy milk anyways). I feel like it was only once the milk-alternate market exploded in variety and customer base that there was this movement to not allow the milk suffix.

That said, yes, the two aren't always completely interchangeable (for example I think there are pH and available-sugars differences, pertinent for yeast-based baking), and you do need to take that into account.

[Radar]

Honestly, I have no idea what the 'right' way even is for an author to indicate the gender of a character if it isn't plot-relevant. If someone drops a him or her pronoun at some point, we can get a view at least to what those around them think it is. With they, it's not clear if they are nonbinary and prefer they or something else. FWIW, I don't think the way Jeph has handled it is notably good or bad.

Case in point: Vaarsuvius. So many years and no one has the slightest idea what their gender is. This ambiguity was used for quite a few jokes, but did this affect the plot in any particular way? Nope. To be honest, the only plot-relevant gender so far in OotS was Durkon's due to him having a son with Hilgya and only learning about it way later.

So I would say the sane way of looking at it in any fiction would be the following: try assuming different genders of a given character and think if that changes anything. If it does not, there is no reason to care about such details.

edit: awful grammar errors.

[DaFlipp]

Yeah, unfortunately online commenting has gotten to the point where people can make an argument that *any* avenue of inclusion is bad.

Characters openly address new character's pronouns/identity/etc.? "Oh look, the author's trying to include a token (insert identity here), just to win brownie points!" Characters don't make a big deal about it? "Oh look, the author's trying to have their cake and eat it too, implying without *officially* saying they're (insert identity here)!"

Of course, considering who his main (or, well, formerly-main-before-this-became-a-purely-ensemble-webcomic) character has been dating for the past few years, I'm sure Jeph's well past the point of expecting he can please everyone and is just doing what feels right for his story.

[Traab]

The way I look at it, announcing emmets preferred gender would feel cringy and forced unless it came up as plot relevant. Meanwhile sticking to preferred pronouns makes it clear enough as far as it matters to us. Like, iirc, claires status as trans only came up due to clintons over protectiveness and up till then it wasnt a factor so why would it get mentioned? Same here, emmet is they and it doesnt matter if they identify as nonbinary, or any of a dozen other non male or female headings. (I have no idea how many there are) At least not until it does matter, at which point im sure it will come up.

[Wraith]

Honestly, I have no idea what the 'right' way even is for an author to indicate the gender of a character if it isn't plot-relevant.

The consensus I have seen suggests that its "the opposite of how Tilly was introduced". The main complaints I've seen run along the lines of:

Take a brand new character and force them into a bizarre story without warning or context. Make them as obnoxious and invasive as possible, and then have them harass another popular character before putting them on a bus and firing them into space forever. Then pat yourself on the back for being inclusive because you once had a token character show up that one time.

Looking back, I don't think that a lot of this is fair - except perhaps the 'put on a bus' thing - and that too many readers have confused "an annoying character who is non-binary" for "non-binary characters are annoying". While Tilly was an unfortunate precursor to Willow for inviting themself into other peoples' business, we did have precedent for Hanners' interfering mother and 'unrealistic storylines' is hardly a reasonable criticism against QC. Having non-binary representation was similarly very important, and why not make a character with actual flaws to work on? Most of what Reddit does is complain how homogenous the cast's mentality is, I don't think it's fair to then complain when someone different comes along.

That Tilly came and went in a couple of weeks, save for one extremely brief cameo, is probably the only justifiable criticism. Being inclusive kind of only works properly if the characters stay in the comic and do something, rather than just pass through, y'know?

In comparison, Emmet's introduction was fine. They're kind of dull and other characters see unusually fond of them for only poorly explained reasons, but Jeph having a new "favourite" and trying to make sure everyone loves them is hardly a new thing.

[The Glyphstone]

I don't think Emmett is the new Designated Favorite so much as Jeph's new Raven/Emily/Etc., the Designated Wacky Comic Relief.

[Rodin]

The way I look at it, announcing emmets preferred gender would feel cringy and forced unless it came up as plot relevant. Meanwhile sticking to preferred pronouns makes it clear enough as far as it matters to us. Like, iirc, claires status as trans only came up due to clintons over protectiveness and up till then it wasnt a factor so why would it get mentioned? Same here, emmet is they and it doesnt matter if they identify as nonbinary, or any of a dozen other non male or female headings. (I have no idea how many there are) At least not until it does matter, at which point im sure it will come up.

Claire's trans status actually came up because she volunteered the information to Marten. It was an early sign she was interested in him (before there were any other shipping signs, IIRC) and was both a sign of how much she trusted him as well as her gauging his reaction. We then find out about Clinton's protectiveness when he walks in on the conversation and Claire tells Clinton that Marten knows.

It's a very natural way of doing the reveal which simultaneously provided character development for all three of them. It's Jeph's writing at its best.

Emmett has similarly felt natural - I didn't even notice the they/them pronouns until someone else mentioned.

[Gez]

Looking back, I don't think that a lot of this is fair - except perhaps the 'put on a bus' thing - and that too many readers have confused "an annoying character who is non-binary" for "non-binary characters are annoying".

These readers should really not look at Dumbing of Age because characters that are deliberately infuriating is one of David Willis' favorite punchlines.

[DaFlipp]

See, I see Emmett less as "wacky comic relief" and more as a subversion of the ever-present "shy best friend" trope. Because when we first met them, they seemed to embody that stock character more or less perfectly, and we could predict an obvious sub-plot of them coming out of their comfort zone and seizing life for the first time, etc, especially considering their best friend fit the usual other half of that trope (the impulsive, living-life-to-its-fullest adventurous friend) to a tee.

Except nope, they're not shy because they're sheltered, they're shy because THEIR PAST IS FULL OF DANGER AND RIDICULOUSNESS and they're trying to avoid getting in any *more* trouble than they've already racked up in a surprisingly brief time. And then I think Jeph just realized combining that personality with a surprisingly chaotic past was fun and kept rolling with it, and will likely continue rolling with it until he something else strikes his fancy, as is his wont.

[theangelJean]

The way I look at it, announcing emmets preferred gender would feel cringy and forced unless it came up as plot relevant. Meanwhile sticking to preferred pronouns makes it clear enough as far as it matters to us. Like, iirc, claires status as trans only came up due to clintons over protectiveness and up till then it wasnt a factor so why would it get mentioned? Same here, emmet is they and it doesnt matter if they identify as nonbinary, or any of a dozen other non male or female headings. (I have no idea how many there are) At least not until it does matter, at which point im sure it will come up.

Exactly this. Does Emmett even have to have a preferred gender? Who's asking them about it? They are a teenager, their identity might not even be fully formed - or they might feel a certain way and not be sure of the words to describe it. It's only the rest of society that insists on putting people into a box and making them stay there. In the QC-verse that might not be the case. All that matters for our purposes is that they are interested in Sam romantically.

[Vinyadan]

All that matters for our purposes is that they are interested in Sam romantically.

That depends in how that interest is supposed to be developed, and, in that case, which tastes Sam has.

[Manga Shoggoth]

"Moose bites kan be pretti nasti"??

And of course, now I must ask: Are there Llamas?

(Monty Python and the Holy Grail has a lot to answer for...)

[Ionathus]

These readers should really not look at Dumbing of Age because characters that are deliberately infuriating is one of David Willis' favorite punchlines.

Carla is a horrible little goblin and also one of my favorite characters in DoA. Just a complete troll and jerk and egotistical mastermind. And I love that.

There's a great moment when the RA asks Carla to please stop antagonizing the floor's resident transphobe (because the RA can't effectively protect Carla herself due to Blackmail^TM), and Carla says "everyone else on this floor gets to be a jackass whenever they want. Am I supposed to be a perfect little angel just because I'm trans?"

There's a real pressure in fiction for nonconforming characters to be "better" people. And if they aren't, if they're allowed to be real people, that can often be used against them to represent their whole demographic negatively. It's kind of a minefield, but characters that manage to transcend that (like Carla) are particularly exciting from a storytelling perspective.

[Mechalich]

I hope this prompt about Clinton wanting to move is actually picked up and not immediately played off for a laugh. I mean, while the Cubetown part is kind of loopy (because everything about Cubetown is), Clinton planning to move away from Northampton following graduation makes complete sense. I mean, he's presumably getting a degree in some comp-sci adjacent field and while that should offer good job prospects, especially in an AI-saturated future, none of those jobs are likely to be found in a Western Massachusetts college town.

Of course, the dynamic here, regarding his relationship with Elliot is incredibly simple. Elliot's a baker/bouncer. He can find work anywhere and so far as we know has no strong ties to the city. Actually, now that I think about it, that's a general oddity regarding QC. It's a story that is ultimately about townies in a college town (this point was even made in-comic regarding Marten), but very few of the characters have any deep connection to the town of Northampton at all, and it seems the first major character to move away, Claire, will be one of the very few who does (Angus doesn't count as a major character).

[Wraith]

Of course, the dynamic here, regarding his relationship with Elliot is incredibly simple. Elliot's a baker/bouncer. He can find work anywhere and so far as we know has no strong ties to the city. Actually, now that I think about it, that's a general oddity regarding QC. It's a story that is ultimately about townies in a college town (this point was even made in-comic regarding Marten), but very few of the characters have any deep connection to the town of Northampton at all, and it seems the first major character to move away, Claire, will be one of the very few who does (Angus doesn't count as a major character).

It kind of makes sense because until now, most of the main characters moved TO Northampton from elsewhere, for various reasons. Marten following a girl (who was attending SMIF, I think?), Dora to set up her business in a place with notably cheaper rent than elsewhere, Hannelore because its relatively quiet and none-intrusive for her OCD, and Faye because it was as far removed from Hicksville, Texas and her traumatic past as geographically, culturally, and humanly different as possible.

It's only recently that the new generation of characters, all of which notably younger than Marten, Faye and Dora, have been met on the 'home turf' and their futures involve moving away, just like the A-cast did at their age. It's almost like a prequel, we're seeing the part that happened before QC The Comic started.

It will be interesting to see how the conversation between Elliot and Clinton is handled over the next couple of days, though. Claire interned in an all-female college library and then almost reluctantly became a part-time barista and everyone has spent ~50 comics telling her how great she's be as Director of IS (or whatever it turns out to be, I don't think even Cubetown really knows yet...), but Elliot actually seems shocked that Clinton - the guy with a degree in AI studies - would want to go and live in an AI-run town.

Then again, Elliot is both neurotic and not often portrayed as being very bright, so maybe it also makes perfect sense.

[Mechalich]

Dora to set up her business in a place with notably cheaper rent than elsewhere, Hannelore because its relatively quiet and none-intrusive for her OCD, and Faye because it was as far removed from Hicksville, Texas and her traumatic past as geographically, culturally, and humanly different as possible.

The problem is that these three things aren't actually true. Northampton has both higher average rents and is considerably busier than most cities of similar size because its a college town, and if Faye really wanted to get away from her rural origins she'd move to an actual city like Boston or New York.

Also, I think Dora actually is from Northampton, or at least Western Mass generally, since both her bother and parents live nearby.

It's only recently that the new generation of characters, all of which notably younger than Marten, Faye and Dora, have been met on the 'home turf' and their futures involve moving away, just like the A-cast did at their age. It's almost like a prequel, we're seeing the part that happened before QC The Comic started.

Dora actually did move away, though admittedly to a place well within commuting distance. The comic conspired to keep Marten and Faye in Northampton to preserve the plot. Easy enough in Marten's case, since inertia serves as sufficient reason give his personality, but much more forced in Faye's. Her unwillingness to follow Angus to New York (or at least date 'long distance') never really made sense in character, but facilitated the plot.

It will be interesting to see how the conversation between Elliot and Clinton is handled over the next couple of days, though. Claire interned in an all-female college library and then almost reluctantly became a part-time barista and everyone has spent ~50 comics telling her how great she's be as Director of IS (or whatever it turns out to be, I don't think even Cubetown really knows yet...), but Elliot actually seems shocked that Clinton - the guy with a degree in AI studies - would want to go and live in an AI-run town.

Actually...I think one of the few significant differences between QC and the real world is that Smif College is gender-integrated while Smith College is not, as Clinton appears to attend it. At least, he references having been in class with Emily, who we know does.

[Traab]

I see it as a sort of "Yeah, I mean, its like a computer programmer wanting to work for microsoft circa 1995, its the biggest game in town so everyone wants to aim for there. I dont have any current plans to flee the country for cube town if thats what you are asking, but the idea that claire working there could get me an in is an enticing one." sort of scenario. The diea that half the cast is going to move to cubetown where the comic will take place from now on is an odd one though. :p

[Vinyadan]

I would expect the opposite to be true: that they don't hire relatives of the workforce, to avoid nepotism. Although I can see how that would be hard for a large corporation, or whatever it is.

It's interesting that Yay said "and her skills". So the super duper smart omniscent AI thinks that Claire is actually qualified for the (or maybe a?) position in Cubetown.

[Wraith]

Northampton has both higher average rents and is considerably busier than most cities of similar size because its a college town

Fair enough. I was thinking of Veronica's comment about Northampton rents being 'laughable' compared to California. CheapER but not necessarily CHEAP.

if Faye really wanted to get away from her rural origins she'd move to an actual city like Boston or New York.

You're absolutely right, but I believe that remains the reason given by Faye?

Also, I think Dora actually is from Northampton, or at least Western Mass generally, since both her brother and parents live nearby.

For some reason, I thought her parents were Swedish and the family moved to NH when she was a young adult. Either I'm thinking of a different comic, or I'm thinking of a different blond woman with a son named Sven

Actually...I think one of the few significant differences between QC and the real world is that Smif College is gender-integrated while Smith College is not, as Clinton appears to attend it. At least, he references having been in class with Emily, who we know does.

Smif was referred to as an all-girl's college when Marten first got a job there. Then again, Clinton is 22 years old so he would likely be in his 4th year of college, when Marten has only been working there for ~2 years in-universe - it might just be a plot hole, or a shared facility, or something. Clinton isn't even the only masc-presenting person in the class.

I would expect the opposite to be true: that they don't hire relatives of the workforce, to avoid nepotism. Although I can see how that would be hard for a large corporation, or whatever it is.

Different companies have their own specific protocols, but in general it's not forbidden by law or anything. Usually you have to write a formal declaration of the relationship and, if there is potential for conflict of interests, sign a contract that says you won't abuse the position for personal/familial/whatever gain under penalty of mutual dismissal.

This is something that gets tracked by HR at recruitment, and given that Moray is HR for Cubetown, it almost certainly wouldn't be a problem.

It's interesting that Yay said "and her skills". So the super duper smart omniscent AI thinks that Claire is actually qualified for the (or maybe a?) position in Cubetown.

"Skills" isn't the same as "Qualifications". Say what you want about having limited job experience, she's good at organising, and getting involved in different projects and steering them towards a suitable conclusion.

The AIs need her to be their Mom and/or baby-sitter, in other words.

[Keltest]

I would expect the opposite to be true: that they don't hire relatives of the workforce, to avoid nepotism. Although I can see how that would be hard for a large corporation, or whatever it is.

It's interesting that Yay said "and her skills". So the super duper smart omniscent AI thinks that Claire is actually qualified for the (or maybe a?) position in Cubetown.

I know this one! A big company or corporation will generally prohibit family members from working directly with each other, but if Clinton was hired as, say, the gardener, and didnt directly interact with Claire on a professional level, that would probably be allowed.

[tomandtish]

Elliot's a baker/bouncer. He can find work anywhere and so far as we know has no strong ties to the city.

Maybe? We don't know enough about Cubetown and the community to know what jobs they might have/need. Looking at the picture from comic 4871, the freighter (avg. length 1000 feet assuming large) looks like 4 might fit on a side. So 4000 feet by 4000 feet, or about 6/10th of a square mile. So it isn't huge.

We have no idea at present what the ratio of AI to humans works out to, or how densely populated the place is (or how many levels the community is). But if there's a place Elliot COULDN'T find a job, this place is certainly a possibility simply because it is so small.

I know this one! A big company or corporation will generally prohibit family members from working directly with each other, but if Clinton was hired as, say, the gardener, and didnt directly interact with Claire on a professional level, that would probably be allowed.

Yeah, a lot depends on the company and their rules. Also whether it is private, private with government contracts, or public.

For example, I work for the state of Texas, and my wife worked in the same office i did until she became disabled. When I became a supervisor she couldn't be in my unit. When I became a program director she couldn't be in any of the units below me. And if I had ever gone for commissioner level and gotten it she would have had to leave (they would have worked her in elsewhere in the agency).

But as someone above mentioned earlier, there are no laws (in the US anyway) that make nepotism illegal.

[theangelJean]

But as someone above mentioned earlier, there are no laws (in the US anyway) that make nepotism illegal.

IANAL, but I am guessing any law making nepotism illegal would prevent family businesses from being a thing, so they are probably rare. Of course small businesses can have different laws to large corporations, so who knows.

[Mechalich]

Maybe? We don't know enough about Cubetown and the community to know what jobs they might have/need. Looking at the picture from comic 4871, the freighter (avg. length 1000 feet assuming large) looks like 4 might fit on a side. So 4000 feet by 4000 feet, or about 6/10th of a square mile. So it isn't huge.

4000 x 4000 is 16 million square feet. That's not huge if you're measuring landforms, but it's absolutely huge if you're measuring structures. 16 million square feet (370 acres) is almost the exact size of the Tesla Fremont Factory site, a facility that employs 22,000 people.

But in any case, Cubetown is part of the Greater Halifax Metro Area. Elliot finding a job there would be trivial.