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-
2022-05-01, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2020
- Location
- Moscow
- Gender
Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Welcome one and all to the Forty-First Zinc Saucier challenge!
Here Playgrounders come to test their skill in, so to say, making cupcakes of fish or T-bone steak of green beans.
What exactly do you need to do? To make a build that has the same abilities and feel as the Secret Ingredient WITHOUT actually using it!
For the forty-first round, we'll look at some obscure and hidden online SI and ask competitors to build us a Life Eater (prestige class from WotC site).
Our challengers will have about 3 weeks to build a complete build up to Effective Character Level 20 using a 32 point buy and all official WotC D&D 3.5 materials (excluding Dragon Magazine, but including any WotC online enhancements) with the abilities and feel of a Familiar without actually being it.
Entries must be submitted bySunday, 00:00 (12:00 am) GMT, May 22, 2022.Monday, 00:00 (12:00 am) GMT May 30, 2022 As usual, please submit your entries via private message to the chairman, so as not to influence the other sauciers. Extensions are available.
Judges will then have as many time as they needed to post scores for all dishes.
Contestants will be judged and awarded a score of 1 through 5 in each of 4 categories:- Innovation (Uniqueness in character concept, race, class, etc)
- Power (How powerful and versatile it is compared to the base class)
- Elegance (What can only be described as how well the build "flows", i.e not using lots of 1-2lv dips, sacrificing flavour for power or using flaws)
- Ingredient (How well the build captures the abilities and feel of the base class)
Presentation would be best in the style of how the iron chef does their presentations, however any style is allowed so long as it is clear on how the build was made.
Submission:
To standardize Entries, please use this format when sending it in:
PM: loky1109
Subject: Zinc Saucier 41, Name of your Entry
For Revisions and disputes, do the same thing. It makes it easier for me finding the entries in my mail box.
If you have questions about the contest that feel inappropriate to ask in the main thread, please PM me with "Zinc Saucier 41 Questions". Keep in mind that I am not a judge, and so questions about how acceptable X or Y might be to judges will get (at best) a guess on my part due to my somewhat limited familiarity with the competitive community.
Recommended style is as the spoilers below. The end of the second post has a link to a Google Sheet that helps show the layout, if that will help you with planning out your build.
SpoilerNAME OF ENTRY
Level Class Base Attack Bonus Fort Save Ref Save Will Save Skills Feats Class Features 1st New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 2nd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 3rd New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 4th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 5th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 6th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 7th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 8th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 9th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 10th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 11th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 12th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 13th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 14th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 15th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 16th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 17th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 18th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 19th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities 20th New Class Level +x +x +x +x Skills Feats New Class Abilities
Code immediately below (spoiler).Spoiler[table="width: 1000, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr]
[td][B]Level[/B][/td]
[td][B]Class[/B][/td]
[td][B]Base Attack Bonus[/B][/td]
[td][B]Fort Save[/B][/td]
[td][B]Ref Save[/B][/td]
[td][B]Will Save[/B][/td]
[td][B]Skills[/B][/td]
[td][B]Feats[/B][/td]
[td][B]Class Features[/B][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]New Class Level[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]+x[/td]
[td]Skills[/td]
[td]Feats[/td]
[td]New Class Abilities[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)SpoilerSpells per Day/Spells Known
Code immediately below (spoiler)Level 0lvl 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 1st - - - - - - - - - - 2nd - - - - - - - - - - 3rd - - - - - - - - - - 4th - - - - - - - - - - 5th - - - - - - - - - - 6th - - - - - - - - - - 7th - - - - - - - - - - 8th - - - - - - - - - - 9th - - - - - - - - - - 10th - - - - - - - - - - 11th - - - - - - - - - - 12th - - - - - - - - - - 13th - - - - - - - - - - 14th - - - - - - - - - - 15th - - - - - - - - - - 16th - - - - - - - - - - 17th - - - - - - - - - - 18th - - - - - - - - - - 19th - - - - - - - - - - 20th - - - - - - - - - - Spoiler[B]Spells per Day/Spells Known[/B]
[table="width: 500, class: grid, align: center"]
[tr]
[td][B]Level[/B][/td]
[td][B]0lvl[/B][/td]
[td][B]1st[/B][/td]
[td][B]2nd[/B][/td]
[td][B]3rd[/B][/td]
[td][B]4th[/B][/td]
[td][B]5th[/B][/td]
[td][B]6th[/B][/td]
[td][B]7th[/B][/td]
[td][B]8th[/B][/td]
[td][B]9th[/B][/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]1st[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]2nd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]3rd[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]4th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]5th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]6th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]7th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]8th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]9th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]10th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]11th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]12th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]13th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]14th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]15th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]16th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]17th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]18th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]19th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[tr]
[td]20th[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[td]-[/td]
[/tr]
[/table]
Please do not post details of your build on the board before it is ready, so as not to spoil the surprise for others. Similarly, please try to refrain from speculating on possible builds too much even if you don't intend to use them yourself.
Sauciers may submit up to two builds each, as we don't want to overfeed the judges.
Spoiler: Previous Challenges- Soulknife
- Bard
- Monk
- Assassin
- Barbarian
- Warlock
- Paladin *
- Warblade
- Pyrokineticist
- Ninja *
- Druid
- True Necromancer
- Dervish
- Whisperknife
- Epic Infiltrator *
- Master of Vipers
- Ranger *
- Flayerspawn Psychic
- Totemist
- Walker in the Waste
- Drunken Master
- Cleric
- Duskblade
- Psibond Agent
- Argent Fist
- Fighter
- Artificier
- Knight
- Spellthief
- Factorum no cooks submitted
- Dragonfire Adept
- Battle Dancer
- Illithid Slayer one cook submitted
- Swashbuckler
- Chameleon
- Dread Necromancer one cook submitted
- Warmage
- Kensai one cook submitted
- Dread Pirate
- Familiar
*: Classes marked with an asterisk have had their original posts updated to reflect the final results.
This competition is inspired by the Playground Iron Chef Competitions and uses mostly identical rules.Last edited by loky1109; 2022-05-23 at 01:24 PM.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
-
2022-05-01, 06:51 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2020
- Location
- Moscow
- Gender
Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt and generic classes are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars, fractional saves/BAB and LA Buyoff are forbidden, ether.
Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is.
Use of flaws to take free feats is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category (penalty for use of flaws for some other reasons is up to judges). Traits are -0.5 each. Also, excessive multiclassing that gives you XP penalty can cause lost points, too.
Please note the following: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana.
Using cross-setting sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion.
And please, please do not forget to indicate the sources.
Concerning Experience Requirements: For this round I remove XP reqs.
Definition of Power for scoring: Since this has been a point of contention, let me lay down this guideline. Since the goal is to emulate the Secret Ingredient, achieving much higher power than the Secret Ingredient is capable of is overkill and should be marked accordingly. Likewise if the build cannot match the power of the Secret Ingredient it should be marked accordingly. Individual judges can decide how much is too much for Power scoring, as each judge will have different tastes. The goal here is to prevent all entries being Wizard 20 because "they do it better."
What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.
Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes, but individual issues of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are not (except for 3.5 update of Oriental Adventures given in Dragon #318).
What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.
Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.
What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.
I know in this moment WotC archive looks shut down. You can use archive copy currently accessible via the Wayback Machine.
Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Variant class features and variant character classes are expressly permitted. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; even now that its me that is Chairing, its still extended to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.
What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while I am chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.
However, Leadership may be taken to qualify for another feat or class (such as the Great Captain feat or Legendary Leader prestige class), though a character still doesn't get its usual benefit in those cases. This is to allow characters to access unproblematic material that'd otherwise be made unavailable because of the Leadership ban.
How the heck do I even do this? Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to select a combination of race, templates, classes, alternate class features, prestige classes, skills, and feats, meld them into a single character that progresses from ECL 1 to ECL 20, that is as close as possible to the secret ingredient as possible in look, feel, class features. How you do it is up to you, I recommend you read previous competitions if you are interested in seeing how others have done it before you. Capture the essence!
Links amusement/edification:- Handy Tips for the Iron Chef in the Playground Noob
- GitP Blank Iron Chef Entry (credit to mattie_p)
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
-
2022-05-01, 06:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2020
- Location
- Moscow
- Gender
Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Reserved for FAQ
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
-
2022-05-01, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2020
- Location
- Moscow
- Gender
Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Sorry for too long delay, I was a little busy.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
-
2022-05-06, 02:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2019
- Location
- Bear mountains! (Alps)
- Gender
Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
I'll see if inspiration hits!
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2022-05-17, 04:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
How are you doing?
It's about five days and I received a bit short of entries.
Somebody are working? Need an extension? It can get to eat more days. ;)If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-17, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
I had a look at this and like the PrC. I think I'll try making a build, I'll let you know how I go.
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2022-05-18, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
I'll look at this, no promises though.
As the red day is dawning,
And the lightning cracks the sky
They'll raise their hands to the heavens above
With resentment in their eyes
Note: if I ghost you on FFRP, you have my explicit permission to godmod me.
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2022-05-19, 10:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-19, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
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2022-05-21, 04:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
It's less than a 24 hours to initial deadline and I have single entry in my mailbox. Does anybody still work on or have an idea?
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-22, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Deadline was passed and nothing changed. I think wait at least till Monday and then take a decision.
Every willing to participate in challenge are welcome.Last edited by loky1109; 2022-05-22 at 11:01 AM.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-23, 01:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
I really don't want to release sole entry. So I'm pushing deadline to next Monday, 00:00 (12:00 am) GMT May 30, 2022 (so, it gets to eat for 29 days now) and hope to receive at least one more entry. More is better.
Geopol4r, how is your looking? (I hope this is way how to talk.)Last edited by loky1109; 2022-05-23 at 01:30 PM.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-23, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
this such a weird class designwise, you’d think the eating would come first and then get abilities from that lol
OI YOU! Join this one Discord where people talk 3.5 stuff! Also chicken infested related things! It’s pretty rad! https://discord.gg/6HmgXhUZ
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2022-05-23, 03:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Yeah, avery weird decision. I think about it for The Wolf in Sheep's Clothing! VC round, but ten levels to start devouring turned out to be too much!
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-30, 02:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Sorry for delay. I didn't do my time management well.
I have two entries for this round. Well, can be fewer.
Please don't post until I'll finish.If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-30, 03:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Drizinyon Hun'iryn
Stop, what your classes are?
Originally Posted by Drizinyon Hun'irynIf you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-30, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Mr. horny
Hungry like a barghest!
Originally Posted by Mr. hornyIf you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-30, 03:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
That's all.
Now we need a judge! Can anybody evaluate this only two entries?If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-31, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Ok. You got me. Only 2 entries and practice for the Iron Chef I've promised to judge damn soon.
To test if I thought I could do this, I went to the warmage thread, did a napkin calculation of how I'd judge the entries, came close enough in concept to what the judge actually did and figured ok, I'll give it a try.
Feel free to make all the disputes, this is a learning experience for me too.
Very briefly, judging criteria for me (before I've looked at any entries)
Innovation: Not duplicating the other entry helps your score. But this will likely hurt you both equally since there is only two of you, so it will be mostly about the building blocks of how you try to duplicate the SI, whether they seem like a "stock approach" or you came at it from a fun angle. I'm a sucker for classes considered actually bad that are made good in an innovative build, so you'll get a small bonus there if I see something like that.
Power: How well you can do what you say you can do. The role you claim matters, although since this is a SI simulation and the SI is an assassin with stealth, sneak attack and SLA support I'm going to judge this on the "Assassin" scale or "Assassin Divine Gish" scale, not whether you can break the universe (although if you can do both, you may score well). As this is a SI contest and the SI has a level 5 entry point, your power at levels 10 15 and 20 will weigh more heavily than how good your chasse is in lower levels.
Elegance: I don't find multiclass builds inelegant, or single class builds elegant, what I like to see is a class that can do its role from L1-20, or if not, show a character growth progression that makes sense (why did you change from being a cleric to an assassin....) If your character doesn't thematically hold together just from the build, show me in the fluff how a character might make these choices rather than, say "more cleric". This is where having a weak or nonsensical low level build will hurt you, rather than in power, because the SI won't have any power till you enter it either, but you do need to fill some role that would make a party want to bring you along, even if you don't start out as "Assassin with SLAs".
Secret Ingredient: This SI has a lot of stuff (monk-save, 6 skill points with good skill list, sneak attack, poison, a bunch of SLAs, sneak attack enhancers etc). The more you have about when the SI would have it (this benchmark assumes you enter at level 11, so you have wiggle room), the better you score. I consider the CE alignment and religious affiliation important. If you're not a big fan of the SI's deity, you better follow a really close equivalent.
I have an afternoon free with nothing else going on. I'll try to do this pretty quick to leave time for disputes before I tackle the Iron Chef judging. With only two entries, hopefully it won't be terribly difficult.Last edited by Seward; 2022-05-31 at 03:45 PM.
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2022-05-31, 03:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Seward! Thank you for responding the call!
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-05-31, 07:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Yeah, I do this pretty fast. If I have the time to deep focus on it and capture it all and feel I understand the SI. That said, I might have missed something and welcome disputes. Both of the entries did a good job of emulating some pretty difficult things so well done overall.
Looking over how I score I'm fairly happy with the range a character might get in every level except Elegance, where penalties can add up quickly depending on illegal or questionable things or a really incoherent build but I am not entirely sure how people could get a score higher than 4 the way I tend to look at things. I thought the first one on the "positive" side "met expectations" and the second one was "above expectation" but I feel like I may be missing a category of thought here that I should be rating on, since now it is mostly "build coherence" on a -.5 to +.5 scale and "is it legal and described properly in the character description" on a "negative lots to 0" rating system. Suggestions for more positive things to rate on would be welcome. Perhaps I should rate +0 for a "legal but incoherent build" +.5 for "legal and meets expectations" and "+1" for "legal and exceeds expectations with the negative numbers reserved to reduce those numbers based on illegal, possibly problematic or poorly explained choices. (with that model both builds would have scored +.5 higher in elegance and overall)
As a side note, I considered Feed and Hide in Plain Sight the most difficult skills to truly emulate, so they rated as high as most of the more common martial stuff and the entire bucket of SLAs on the "How well did you match the SI" category.
Spoiler: Drizinyon Hun'iryn: 13.5
Innovation: 3.75 Going at this with lots of domains was something I anticipated, using rapid advancement to get to Destruction and Hunger Domain to simulate feed by leveraging Divine Crusader was not. +.5. Getting to 5d6 sneak attack via daring outlaw and getting all the random skill requirements out of the way via that path was also a good way to compress advancement +.25. I liked some of the ways you simulated powers via class abilities rather than just cleric spells +.25 (eg Death Delver), Contemplative -.25
Power: 2.5
Kill Stuff by Attacking Them: 3/4 bab but weak attributes till L10 and club with 8 str = not impressive even with 5d6 sneak. Cleric buffs help but don't really close the gap till the L15-20 range. You really need magic to assassinate most enemies -.5.
Do Assassin Skills: Limited skill points and only minimal investment in prereq skills (stealth and social) balanced only by disguise self. Dexterity is also unusually low for a class that is supposed to be good at stealth and social skills. High charisma balances the lack of skill points somewhat, and eventually spell slots help close the gap some but I find this only slightly better than a baseline cleric, so -.5
Do Cleric Stuff: Weaker than a cleric/rogue hybrid in 5-10 range, then gets stronger rapidly as Divine Crusader advances with all signature "Life Stealer" SLAs on schedule and with solid saves +.25 Fort/will saves significantly better than default build +.25
Don't be Mistaken for Another Role: I think the balance is ok here, you look like a martial assassin early if weak, and you lack the spell slots try to simulate a real cleric in spite of L9 spells and I feel what slots you have will be used to support the "divine assassin" role you are trying to emulate, so +0 here, reflecting that you are a fair imitation of a Life Stealer that focuses on SLAs rather than more martial abilities.
Elegance: 2.75 I don't understand how you get spell domain rather than Travel on Seeker of Misty Isles. It doesn't matter to power or SI use (both domains are excellent for an assassin-type) and there probably is a way, but -.25 because you didn't explain it in your prereqs. While I would have liked Death Delver casting mentioned, the reason for this class was obvious so no penalty +0. This is an extremely careful jigsaw puzzle build but your story did explain that you were trying to emulate the SI without perfect knowledge of what it was an your story held together enough to satisfy me. Every level seemed to have something that fit pretty well, and had a reason, although the character is recognizably different in approach in later levels compared to mid levels. All that said, that's what I expect of an emulation build, so no penalty or bonus overall +0.
Ingredient: 4.5 Ok, I went through every single thing this SI might have and the only thing that came late was chill touch (at level 20) and the skill point weakness and relatively low bab I already dinged you for in "power" (and that's where I track the building blocks like BAB and saves, not here). So..
Martial stuff poison, sneak attack 4-6d6, bleed, draining sneak attack (death devotion) all arrive on time and at expected power levels +.5
SLA stuff All but one SLA on time, and all by the end all SLAs, and all with decent saves +.5 The late chill touch isn't exactly an important or signature skill for the class so no penalty for getting it only at L20.
HIPS Cloak of Deception is pretty close, however actually hiding with skill to back it is superior to invisibility vs many foes, especially in higher levels, and swift-action requirement is sometimes an advantage, sometimes a problem net +.25
Feed Hunger domain isn't a bad approximation. It gives "get stronger by eating" and can destroy a body, but it isn't really the same. Still you can do it on demand much like the SI's power so +.25
Spoiler: Mr Horny: 14.75
Innovation: 3.0 My default was cleric/rogue as -.5 but cleric ninja reduces that to -.25. Contemplative -.25. Hellbreaker as the backbone, that is very cool +.5 and I think adds more to the Assassin theme than just the abilities that match SI.
Power: 4
Kill Stuff by Attacking Them: 3/4 bab and solid physical attributes, plus multiple attacks eventually to leverage precision damage and native poison source, with cleric spell buffs adding to this in later levels (and precision damage on undead via gravestrike). This is a quite solid rogue-style damage inflictor just considering physical skills +.5
Do Assassin Skills: Nearly kept up on skill points, has stats to back them up and they're spent on things that a LifeStealer's supposed to be good at, with the only real weakness in the Intimidate area and just not quite enough skill points to go around when all those contemplative levels stack up (By L20 you are at L12 skill levels for a similar skillmonkey). Hellbreaker adds telepathic static and stowaway, and L5 cleric casting slots do fill in a lot of gaps (silence, divine inspiration etc) which overall tips this to slightly positive +.25.
Do Cleric Stuff: Spellcasting is a bit better than default (L5 spells rather than L3-4 max spells on a rogue/cleric hybrid) but loss of destruction SLA with nothing equivalent to replace it is a pretty hard counter on power to the higher CL+slots, so +0 on spellcasting. Saves are comparable - a little higher in will, a bit lower in fort, reflex about the same, no stat weaknesses, close enough for +0. Steal SU ability is a wildcard that I think could well be leveraged a number of ways for a divine assassin but has restrictions, +.25 for that.
Don't be Mistaken for Another Role: You convincing as a divine assassin but also clearly not a melee brute or a primary caster in spite of being able to cover these roles in some situations. +0 (this category is a penalty for getting power outside of your role that confuses party members as to what you are for)
Elegance: 3.5 Everything seems legal +0. I want to bring attention to level 3. At this point the character has committed to a Lifestealer ideal. He's got weaker forms of his later sneak attack, hide in plain sight, deathwatch, craft poisonmaking, a fairly useless defensive feat prereq similar to dodge and is good at all the assassin-skills for his level. Even saves are kinda in the "all good" ideal. As the character grows, so do the abilities and the role is recognizable from L1-20. Every level from L3 onward adds to the basic concept in ways that make sense with existing skills and powers advancing steadily and new capabilities that improve the role also arriving at a steady pace. When I say "classes don't matter for elegance" this is what I'm talking about and something I strive for in characters I play for real. Well done, +.5 for overall thematic build.
Ingredient: 4.25 A solid attempt. The Feed is indeed quite challenging to accomplish. This is on a -.5 to +.5 scale where on low end you miss the entire category and mid is you got some of it right, high end you got it all close enough an observer probably can't tell the difference between you and the real SI.
Martial stuff All but Draining sneak attack arrive on time and you hit the 4-6d6 of sneak attack equivalent I assumed for this class at L20. Draining sneak attack is unique and important to ID you as a Life Stealer though so only +.25 rather than the +.5 for a perfect score here.
SLA stuff All but Destruction simulated with adequate saves on time. +.25 Destruction is a hit both here and in power for different reasons. Here, you can't get a perfect emulation without it, as an apparently martial assassin busting it out is a signature move for a high level version of the SI. There it actually matters for overall power (enervation would also be in this category, where death knell missing would only hurt you here, not in power)
HIPS mantle of darkness with ghost step to cover it when no shadows exist works for me. (HIPS needs cover if no concealment around, so sometimes it will be a bit better than Mantle+Ghost Step vs truesight/see invis, sometimes worse) +.5
Feed I really wanted to give a +.5 here, but the awkwardness of setting it up with planar binding+locking down the steal SU power vs just having it ready when handy reduces its utility to a +.25, even though you do in fact emulate the ability perfectly if you set it up and pay the opportunity cost.
Last edited by Seward; 2022-05-31 at 07:32 PM.
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2022-06-01, 04:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Thank you again Seward! It was really quick!
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-06-01, 05:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Seward, I have one dispute for you.
Originally Posted by Mr. hornyIf you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-06-01, 08:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Regarding feed dispute. I admit I saw "planar ally" in my brain when you wrote "planar binding" because you're a cleric and didn't notice the goof, and given what you are consciously trying to emulate when you started the relationship with that deity, having it send you barghests (and probably nothing but barghests) when using Planar Ally made sense.
I subscribe to the idea a barghest can consume the body of any humanoid it has killed at any time after it is dead, it is how I've run it as a GM (using the threat of doing so to add urgency to PC actions without automatically abandoning self-preservation to try to consume a corpse rather than miss an opportunity to feed when other threats exist), and by other GMs for similar reasons. I don't think you can feed unless you have the SU ability locked and loaded when you kill an enemy (strike the killing blow), but as you say, if you need the SU ability for some other reason that day you can swap it in and out, only loading it before you kill somebody you need to feed on. That's close enough to keep the "power" +.25 for the steal SU bonus I gave you while also considering you'd have feed when you really needed it, especially under most GM rulings you'll get statboosts/hit die boosts/etc after feeding which also boosts power. Assuming you can swap it in and out, which relies on having a friendly barghest on call.
Part of why it was only +.25 was that "power" in this challenge is "be a better divine assassin" and it's good, but you already have a lot of the stuff you might want to emulate covered one way or another with cleric casting+scroll-type WBL.
IIRC, at my table those hit die boosts would work like Inspire Greatness, except with permanent instead of temporary hitpoints and for hit dice based on amount of feeding you've done (so no skill boosts or feats but otherwise it is pretty nice) but they'd vanish if you swapped SU abilities. I imagine many other GMs would find a different balance, but you'd get something.
Now then you've described pretty well how you get to use Steal SLA to set up the assassination with one ability (the +.25 for power assumed, basically for everything except the final kill, or for sticking with feed and eating a few folks ahead of time) and then have the Feed ability lined up and ready to prevent restoration of the victim, which is the primary point of the ability for the SI (the ability to boost stats etc is, as you noted in conflicts, a bit more GM dependent but also not really impaired by having to use planar ally. You could always buy some books to get the inherent bonuses at 18+ to end up the same as somebody with the SI). A fairly obvious solution to the problem of needing to do the killing blow while needing some other Su ability to make the kill is to subdue the enemy, call in the barghest, steal feed, kill the helpless victim, eat it.
Both SI and your abilities are at will (which is why I gave you nearly full credit) but Lesser Planar Ally is not, which is why you didn't get full score.
However, if you go with the hour/level 600gp (or even day/level, the 6000gp isn't that expensive for L18+) planar ally at this point it is in fact a reusable ability until the barghest thinks its service is done. Likewise one L4 spell isn't a resource that will win or lose an assassination, or even several (and if it was for some reason you have the option to pay more for the day/level version). So you could go on a killing spree feeding on everything in sight, just as somebody with the SI could, and an observer wouldn't be able to tell the difference when you started feeding. Given that your planar ally has at-will blink and levitate, some disguise as relatively harmless thing (wolf or goblin) and in really dangerous situations staying dim door distance away and only coming in to power you up when it is safe and without witnesses (plus any other cleric buffs you give it) I think you do in fact come up to the standard of "an observer couldn't tell you weren't the SI" on this function, which is the only way to get a full +.5.
+.25 on use of SI for 4.5 in that category, 15 score overall.
I just have to say both entries were amazing on the emulation side. The difference in score is mostly how effective the builds are at most levels in that role.Last edited by Seward; 2022-06-01 at 09:23 AM.
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2022-06-01, 01:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Well, as I see we have only single judge, don't we?
If somebody want join us as such let he say it now or will be silent forever. Saying "now" I meantill 23:59 GMT todaymore realistically till next morning.Last edited by loky1109; 2022-06-01 at 06:03 PM.
If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-06-02, 03:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
Reveling time.
Name Alignment / Race Class Levels Chef Seward Total Place Drizinyon Hun'iryn CE Half-Drow Dirty Fighter Thug 3/Swashbuckler 2/Wilderness Drow Mimic Adventurer 2/Warblade 1/Divine Crusader 1/Death Delver 1/Contemplative 6/Mystic Wanderer 1/Divine Agent 1/Wearer of Purple 1/Seeker of the Misty Isle 1 loky1109 13.50 13.50 N/A Mr. horny CE Human Cleric 2/Contemplative 7/Hellbreaker 8/Ninja 3 ciopo 15.00 15.00 1st
Congratulations for ciopo! Gratitude for Seward!
Yeah, you see it right, Drizinyon is mine. Chair's entry.
Sorry for that, I just was strongly hit by inspiration at one moment. Plus, there was one one entry and all looked like it's all, so I decided to place my entry in.
Spoiler: Some answers for Seward.I don't understand how you get spell domain rather than Travel on Seeker of Misty Isles.
HIPS Cloak of Deception is pretty close, however actually hiding with skill to back it is superior to invisibility vs many foes, especially in higher levels, and swift-action requirement is sometimes an advantage, sometimes a problem net +.25
And, I looked at your judging. In Elegance part you was tend to give penalty, not bonuses. Maybe you should start from 4, not 3?If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.
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2022-06-02, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
I'm kind of happy I scored the chef higher than the host's last second entry, although I approve of adding your own to make it more interesting when there was only one chef.
I did it via Heretic of the Faith.
If you have access to domains, you can exchange any one domain you have with another domain outside those normally availiable to your faith.
----
Regarding Elegance, I'm going to re-read my judge criteria I stated for the Iron Chef run and also look at some prior rounds to see criteria other judges used that fall within that. I feel I'm good with negatives mostly for illegal or "table variation" types of things with a straight 0-1 range for "this is a coherent build" as mentioned above (where mid range of "meets expectations" is +.5). But yes, I think I need to find something else positive to rate it on to get the 5 point range. If I can't figure out anything else before I judge the Iron Chef round I may go to a 4 point baseline (especially if somebody really added up a lot of negatives in this area and I need the extra buffer)Last edited by Seward; 2022-06-02 at 06:55 PM.
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2022-06-13, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Zinc Saucier XLI: Every 41st Round, For 21 days, It Gets To Eat.
My next month will be very busy. Working without days off, then vacation and I see issues with competitions now, so I take the pause.
But Zinc Saucier will return with some very interesting!If you could make anything and everything welcome to the Zinc Saucier XLV: Figaro
My competition's medals.
Spoiler: For purposes of clarity1109 is September, 11 - my birthday.