Murder Hobo advice

[MadBear]

Hi all,

So I run D&D for my school's D&D club. For teenagers, most are playing exactly as you'd expect, but I have one student who is really running around as a true murder hobo. I don't have a problem with a player going this route per se, but I do want to find a way to impose meaningful consequences for his actions without it becoming the sole focus of everything that happens. For example, they wanted to help "feed" the local dire spider, so they murdered a family living in a nearby cottage and placed the bodies in the spiders lair.

On the one hand, I could just completely ignore said behaviors, and in the other extreme I could have the guild come under attack from the formal government as they have a member committing wanton murder for fun.

What is a realistic in-between that imposes some meaningful consequences for a player who's main goal is to murder anyone/anything that gets in their way (or things that are not in their way, that they go out of the way to kill)?

[Pyrophilios]

Revenants. Revenants with diseases. Revenants that come back no matter how often you have killed them - preferably just after the players have fought another battle.

[JLandan]

Hi all,

So I run D&D for my school's D&D club. For teenagers, most are playing exactly as you'd expect, but I have one student who is really running around as a true murder hobo. I don't have a problem with a player going this route per se, but I do want to find a way to impose meaningful consequences for his actions without it becoming the sole focus of everything that happens. For example, they wanted to help "feed" the local dire spider, so they murdered a family living in a nearby cottage and placed the bodies in the spiders lair.

On the one hand, I could just completely ignore said behaviors, and in the other extreme I could have the guild come under attack from the formal government as they have a member committing wanton murder for fun.

What is a realistic in-between that imposes some meaningful consequences for a player who's main goal is to murder anyone/anything that gets in their way (or things that are not in their way, that they go out of the way to kill)?

It is most likely kids being kids. Back in the 70s we did some awful things in D&D land.

A suggestion: Start a new game with new PCs. The story line is they are hired or assigned by higher power to investigate the family's deaths and deal with the culprits. Present them with the horrible actions they've done, and see what, as new PCs, they do about it.

[MadBear]

It is most likely kids being kids. Back in the 70s we did some awful things in D&D land.

A suggestion: Start a new game with new PCs. The story line is they are hired or assigned by higher power to investigate the family's deaths and deal with the culprits. Present them with the horrible actions they've done, and see what, as new PCs, they do about it.

That's an interesting idea. I kinda like that.

It is 100% kids looking to be super edgy kids, which is why I'm looking for a way to get them to be better players without an outright "rocks fall you die" response.

Revenants. Revenants with diseases. Revenants that come back no matter how often you have killed them - preferably just after the players have fought another battle.

Hmm, I've never thought of using Revenants that way. I think I'll keep that in the back pocket for now, and use it if they insist on being pure murder hobos.

[KittenMagician]

on top of the revenants maybe one of them is taken and turned into a vengeful death knight. make the consequences for their actions be the BBEG. death knights can royally f*** s*** up.

[Yakmala]

I generally let my players know up front that most adventurers are considered heroes. But if you act like a villain, you will be treated like a villain.

Harming or killing villagers gets the town guards on your case. If you are too tough for the town guards, the town leadership will put out wanted posters both in the local village and in other nearby villages, towns and cities. Groups of good aligned adventurers of increasingly greater power level will start showing up to deal with you.

Congrats, murder hobo, you are now someone else's quest.

Alternately, you call on the popular trope from the fantasy genre that high level adventurers that survive eventually retire and open shops or taverns.
That friendly old couple running the potions shop might actually be level 20 wizards. The guy working the bar at the tavern might have once been a level 20 vengeance paladin. Harass them at your peril!

[DaPenguin]

Have the town guard investigate the missing family. Perhaps there becomes rumors around town and if they find out the PCs did it, because they were sloppy, some NPCs might be entirely unwilling to work with them as they are murderers. Perhaps they get recognized and attempted to be recruited by some evil group who wants murderers but more reputable groups like say Adventurer guilds don't allow them to get quests any longer.

This is not meant as a punishment, but as a natural reaction to those players taking evil actions, or at the very least unlawful (law of the land not the alignment) actions. They go from potential heroes on quests to wanted criminals who must hide their identities to go sell stuff or have the one member of the party who is still viewed in a positive light (because maybe they are not viewed as part of the group) has to be in charge of buying, selling, and procuring items in some cases. Some towns though may still welcome them especially if those towns are controlled by selfish oligarchs who want someone willing to commit murder without question.

Then lead them down a questionable path that slowly descends into more and more evil, after all someone willing to kill children and the innocent in many people's eyes will be willing to do just about anything for the right reason (money or otherwise).

Lean into it and make them decide what line their PC will draw and shift their alignments as nessecary.

[Jervis]

Hi all,

So I run D&D for my school's D&D club. For teenagers, most are playing exactly as you'd expect, but I have one student who is really running around as a true murder hobo. I don't have a problem with a player going this route per se, but I do want to find a way to impose meaningful consequences for his actions without it becoming the sole focus of everything that happens. For example, they wanted to help "feed" the local dire spider, so they murdered a family living in a nearby cottage and placed the bodies in the spiders lair.

On the one hand, I could just completely ignore said behaviors, and in the other extreme I could have the guild come under attack from the formal government as they have a member committing wanton murder for fun.

What is a realistic in-between that imposes some meaningful consequences for a player who's main goal is to murder anyone/anything that gets in their way (or things that are not in their way, that they go out of the way to kill)?

Easy. It’s been said already but having the kid raise as a ghost and haunt him is a great way to handle this. Most murder hobos come from a lack of player buy in and lack of consequences. Just have the kid show up with a gaping stab wound is a good approach. Likewise having some random hobo murder his favorite pet is some fair karma.

[MadBear]

Most murder hobos come from a lack of player buy in and lack of consequences.

This is definitely true of most murder hobos, but this student and his friend are a weird breed of murder hobo. His friend, I ended up doing a rocks fall you die as DM, when he decided that in the middle of the night he was going to use his knife to slash the throats of every other students characters because "My character hates humans, so he's going to murder all these humans". When I explained that he was apart of a group, and this was going to cause the entire session to end if the rest of the players were killed he just responded "so what, it's what my character would do, I'm just being true to him". At that moment, a bolt of lightning hit his character instakilling him. I then let him know his next character needed to be willing to work with the party.

Both of them, are having most their fun in purposefully being as awful as they can be. I've definitely had my fair share of teenage angst, where you make morally dubious decisions, but these two currently are explicitly killing children to feed to monsters because 1. It's fun and funny and 2. It's what my character would do.

So I think I'm gonna start with putting up some wanted posters that has his face on it, and we'll move from there. (with the end goal being their targeted by revenants, ghosts, and worse if they don't change).

[Kurt Kurageous]

IMO as a guy who did what you did (D&D Club, high school) and dealt with the appearances and playstyle of the inevitable edge lords...

You are the DM, you are the teacher. This is, I imagine, some of your the students first experience with our hobby. Do you see the un-fun on the faces of the other players at the table? Do you think this will turn them off of D&D/RPGs, perhaps forever? You have a responsibility to the players, yourself, and ultimately to the game. For the sake of the game, talk to the ones making it un-fun.

They need to know it's not fun for everyone. If they are unwilling to do that, then suggest they find/become a DM who wants to run with that kind of setting. But I assume your game is about heroes, not video game avatars living in a consequence-free world. If they don't get it, they have to go.

Not having a problem per se with that style is ignoring the context of your game. This goes way beyond the scope of simple in-game consequences.

My game attracted many socially marginalized students who needed the group to help them learn how to interact with others. They needed shelter from others who would browbeat, dominate, and assert their will over them. You are that shelter. You are the DM, you are the teacher. What kind of game are you going to allow to happen? What kind of play are you rewarding?

[Demonslayer666]

If this isn't fun for you and the type of game you want to run, discuss some limits with them outside of game, rather than trying to handle it in game.

"It's what my character would do" is code for "I don't want to defend my character's actions".

[KorvinStarmast]

"It's what my character would do" is code for "I don't want to defend my character's actions".

My suggestion: sit the student down, OOC, and explain what My Guy syndrome is and why it's bad behavior. I further suggest that you have them read the "making the tough decisions" article by Rich Burlew. (It's no longer on this site, it's somewhere on the wayback machine).

No character can act unless the player makes a choice for them, so you need to tell me why you are making that choice for that character.

Really, that's 90% of what a player does in a roleplaying game; he or she makes decisions. But too often, players fall into the mistaken belief that certain decisions are not really theirs to make, or are foregone conclusions. Nothing could be further from the truth.

=================

You are not your character, and your character is not a separate entity with reactions that you cannot control. I can't tell you how many times I've heard a player state that their character's actions are not under their control. Every decision your character makes is your decision first. It is possible and even preferable for you to craft a personality that is consistent but also accommodating of the characters the other players wish to play.

When you think about a situation, ask yourself, "Is this the only way my character can react to this?" Chances are, the answer is, "No." Try to refine your character so that you can deal with situations that conflict with your alignment/ethos without resorting to ultimatums, threats, etc. This will often mean thinking in terms of compromise and concession to your fellow players, or at the very least an agreement to disagree.

[XmonkTad]

My game attracted many socially marginalized students who needed the group to help them learn how to interact with others. They needed shelter from others who would browbeat, dominate, and assert their will over them. You are that shelter. You are the DM, you are the teacher. What kind of game are you going to allow to happen? What kind of play are you rewarding?

This brings up a good point. You may not have a player with the best social skills. Depending on how comfortable you feel, RPGs do have some evidence behind them for teaching social skills. I believe "clinical roll" did some work on this, but my google-fu is failing me. Of course, this should not be done at the expense of the other players.

[Kurt Kurageous]

This brings up a good point. You may not have a player with the best social skills. Depending on how comfortable you feel, RPGs do have some evidence behind them for teaching social skills. I believe "clinical roll" did some work on this, but my google-fu is failing me. Of course, this should not be done at the expense of the other players.

https://nerdarchy.com/growing-the-dd...megan-connell/

I'm thinking this is what you were thinking of.

[XmonkTad]

https://nerdarchy.com/growing-the-dd...megan-connell/

I'm thinking this is what you were thinking of.

Yes! Dr. Connell! She has done some good work, and there are some papers backing up her approach. Replicating her approach might be difficult, but might be worth the effort?

[Willowhelm]

This is definitely true of most murder hobos, but this student and his friend are a weird breed of murder hobo. His friend, I ended up doing a rocks fall you die as DM, when he decided that in the middle of the night he was going to use his knife to slash the throats of every other students characters because "My character hates humans, so he's going to murder all these humans".

The other advice here might be good but might not be practical for your situation. No idea. I don’t envy you though.

This isn’t something where strangers can’t give you a correct answer because we cannot know all the complexities of the situation and what is up with this kid.

But why not let this play out?

He tries to do his murder plan. Insta-kill doesn’t really work in 5e unless you want to. So one PC takes damage (potentially), wakes up… all PCs now awake and he is standing with a bloody knife over his party member. Equally it can be as simple as a session 0 (or now) rule saying no PC on PC fighting (for all the social reasons and also because dnd’s rules are not balanced for it).

Actions have consequences. His character would not survive and/or stay with the party… lesson learned?

The party is also going to be more suspicious and less trusting of sketchy behaviour with a new member after that so his new character would probably need to be a little better behaved etc etc.

Murder hobo game play gets murder hobo consequences. Have fun role playing your character being put in jail and sentenced to death (assuming they don’t fight the guards and die immediately) while the rest of the party goes and has an adventure.

But that’s just my approach. Lean into it, show (don’t tell) how being a **** to those around you doesn’t work out well.

[Keravath]

This is definitely true of most murder hobos, but this student and his friend are a weird breed of murder hobo. His friend, I ended up doing a rocks fall you die as DM, when he decided that in the middle of the night he was going to use his knife to slash the throats of every other students characters because "My character hates humans, so he's going to murder all these humans". When I explained that he was apart of a group, and this was going to cause the entire session to end if the rest of the players were killed he just responded "so what, it's what my character would do, I'm just being true to him". At that moment, a bolt of lightning hit his character instakilling him. I then let him know his next character needed to be willing to work with the party.

Both of them, are having most their fun in purposefully being as awful as they can be. I've definitely had my fair share of teenage angst, where you make morally dubious decisions, but these two currently are explicitly killing children to feed to monsters because 1. It's fun and funny and 2. It's what my character would do.

So I think I'm gonna start with putting up some wanted posters that has his face on it, and we'll move from there. (with the end goal being their targeted by revenants, ghosts, and worse if they don't change).

"It's what my character would do." is probably the most well known statement used to try to justify actions that are actually totally out of character.

In your example - "My character hates humans, so he's going to murder all these humans" - how did this character wind up in a human town? Working with a party of humans? If the character hates humans so much he would have done this previously. The character would be known. Adventurers would have shared a description of someone who poses as a friend then murders their party. The actions described have little or no logic/consistency behind them and really don't align with "it's what my character would do."

You know the students better than we do but the entire scenario described above sounds like a student pushing the limits just to see how the adult reacts just for giggles if no other reason. They are probably hoping for the adult to get angry or frustrated, show some emotion, the student just wants to be disruptive for the teacher and the other students in the group, "role-playing" likely has little or nothing to do with it. The other students also get to see them taking actions counter to authority in a context where they can get away with a lot more than they could in a classroom.

Similar concepts go with killing innocents to feed monsters or murdering children. It is likely mostly for the "shock" factor, the offense to sensibilities of most of the other players - again it has nothing to do with role playing in this context.

Even explicitly evil characters, when role-played, don't usually go around murdering folks at random. Why? The main reason is that they won't survive long. This is D&D, lawful authority is often far away and adventurers become judge, jury and executioner. A character that was that bad, that murdered many innocents and betrayed or attacked their party members would simply be dealt with by the rest of the party or by a bounty hunter of some sort.

Anyway, you are in charge, you know the players to some extent, unless everyone else playing is ok with that behavior and I would guess that most aren't and just won't say anything due to peer pressure (expressing an opinion against another student/player may be seen to align the speaker with the teacher/authority figure ... teacher's pet etc (when the teacher isn't around) ... so for many students it is safer not to express their opinion about the actions of the other students).

As DM, watch for the reactions of the other students - don't pay attention to the student taking the action intended to provoke a reaction - watch how the others around the table seem to react, do they look down, do they look away, do they play with their pencil, do they look at their character sheet or phone, do their expressions change - if the other players don't feel very confident in themselves, they aren't that likely to call out another player for behavior they don't like - eventually, they might just start not showing up since they don't like the direction the game takes. None of us are there so all of our comments don't have the full context but I'd be wary of "edginess" being a bit over the top for some folks at the table and turning them off the game. The DM has a responsibility for everyone there, not just the most outrageous ones.

[someguy]

Agree with most other posters that you should think of the other players here as well. One in game thing could be that the other characters do a heroic act and restrain and turn In the murder hobo.

[animorte]

I generally have basic stat blocks prepared for just about anybody the party might encounter. I keep them within arms reach (written or printed).

I also have a huge list of names that I keep at the ready and apply randomly with a little note to organize after the session.

People have had some grand ideas here. Keep in mind that actions have consequences. What drives the party? Did someone of their past suffer a terrible fate which they are in the process of avenging? Etc... Then it would certainly make sense that someone they bring to an end would have a friend or family member whose adventure begins there, to hunt down the so-and-so to commit the deed, whether in the right or wrong. NPCs have feelings too!

[Frogreaver]

Hi all,

So I run D&D for my school's D&D club. For teenagers, most are playing exactly as you'd expect, but I have one student who is really running around as a true murder hobo. I don't have a problem with a player going this route per se, but I do want to find a way to impose meaningful consequences for his actions without it becoming the sole focus of everything that happens. For example, they wanted to help "feed" the local dire spider, so they murdered a family living in a nearby cottage and placed the bodies in the spiders lair.

On the one hand, I could just completely ignore said behaviors, and in the other extreme I could have the guild come under attack from the formal government as they have a member committing wanton murder for fun.

What is a realistic in-between that imposes some meaningful consequences for a player who's main goal is to murder anyone/anything that gets in their way (or things that are not in their way, that they go out of the way to kill)?

Why might the player be engaging in that type of behavior?
Attention?
Control?
Boredom?
Wanting to tame dire spiders to use as mounts?
Testing fictional boundaries?
Just for the lols?
An alliance with the dire spiders would be beneficial to the PCs objectives?
A worldview that even the 'bad creatures' shouldn't be wantonly murdered?

Depending on why you think the player is doing that should determine your response. If you are not sure the first thing to do in game is ask the player what he hopes to accomplish by his declared actions.

As an example, new kids to D&D often test the boundaries of what's allowed in the game. That's often at everyone else's expense but they probably don't realize this. If that's what's happening a brief out of game talk about how players pick their characters actions and the goal of a cooperative RPG is for the characters to mostly cooperate to achieve shared goals as that will be fun for everyone... this would likely do a world of good IMO.

[Sigreid]

You could have demons and devils take a notice of their good work and see how they respond to that.

[CTurbo]

I've had players like this over the years. The best thing to do is talk things out with them and try to get them to understand that his in-game actions will have serious in-game consequences. The next time he attacks a "helpless" NPC, that NPC was a retired level 20 Fighter. That old man? A level 20 Monk. The little old lady? She's an ancient silver dragon in human form. If the player still doesn't get it after his character gets killed a few times, then I'd explain to him that he's not allowed to play anymore.

I used to keep a high level Vengeance Paladin on hand as a NPC "bounty hunter" that would hunt down characters for committing villainous acts.

[Sigreid]

I've had players like this over the years. The best thing to do is talk things out with them and try to get them to understand that his in-game actions will have serious in-game consequences. The next time he attacks a "helpless" NPC, that NPC was a retired level 20 Fighter. That old man? A level 20 Monk. The little old lady? She's an ancient silver dragon in human form. If the player still doesn't get it after his character gets killed a few times, then I'd explain to him that he's not allowed to play anymore.

I used to keep a high level Vengeance Paladin on hand as a NPC "bounty hunter" that would hunt down characters for committing villainous acts.

I'd advise against this, but if he's careless with his murder; word will eventually get around. Then there can be an endless stream of people seeking justice/vengeance for his actions. Possibly even some acts that are blamed on him that he didn't do. Likewise, if there's no one around that wants to challenge him, the party may find that when they get to town they roll up the sidewalk and bolt the doors because nobody wants anything to do with them.

[Frogreaver]

I'd advise against this, but if he's careless with his murder; word will eventually get around. Then there can be an endless stream of people seeking justice/vengeance for his actions. Possibly even some acts that are blamed on him that he didn't do. Likewise, if there's no one around that wants to challenge him, the party may find that when they get to town they roll up the sidewalk and bolt the doors because nobody wants anything to do with them.

IMO, most player actions that are going to tend to derail the game into territory most other players at the table aren't interested in the DM should avoid playing out via framing the next scene well past whatever the player was doing. The DM shouldn't enlist consequences by sucking the fun out of the game for everyone because of 1 player.

One thing that can sometimes work is a table vote where the players characters just leave that PC behind and the DM tells the character to roll up a new PC that his character is now an NPC.

[sambojin]

Celestials are always fun. Pick a god, any god. That family of villagers just so happened to worship them. And that god hates this sort of injustice, and just so happens to have an army of archons, couatls, and many other beings at their disposal, just for stuff like this.

Good guys fight daemons and devils and reveal their machinations.

Bad guys? Well, they still get whomped, but it's by angels. And heroes. And adventurers. And basic bits of society (lords, knights, counts, barons, any of their leiutenants or lackeys, even other evil people and their power groups) will squash stuff like that. Stopping a "bad-guy" enhances their reputation pretty well in the eyes of others, even if they are one themselves, the rest of the time. Fighting flavour-of-the-week evil pays, even if you are evil too. And there's no deeper plot involved. It was just "you were really really bad, in/justice has cometh to thee!".
And make sure the angels/ societal/ even badder-people take away some of the bad-guy PCs character's toys and/or abilities, so there's mechanical hits for the player's abilities to play like this as well. Maybe they'll even be able to redeem themselves and get their toys back? Maybe....

Problem solved.

[Mastikator]

1) Have him change his alignment to evil
2) Make sure future NPCs are more personable so the players are more likely to feel like they are people
3) Use reputation, also for the good PCs, give them rewards, explicitly tell in NPC character that Mr Murderhobo is not trusted because he's a cold blooded killer

This should help him with a) getting it out of his system and b) having some closure when you kill the PC, all murderhobo PCs should find the same ending: death.

[Burley]

Hi all,

So I run D&D for my school's D&D club. For teenagers, most are playing exactly as you'd expect, but I have one student who is really running around as a true murder hobo. I don't have a problem with a player going this route per se, but I do want to find a way to impose meaningful consequences for his actions without it becoming the sole focus of everything that happens. For example, they wanted to help "feed" the local dire spider, so they murdered a family living in a nearby cottage and placed the bodies in the spiders lair.

On the one hand, I could just completely ignore said behaviors, and in the other extreme I could have the guild come under attack from the formal government as they have a member committing wanton murder for fun.

What is a realistic in-between that imposes some meaningful consequences for a player who's main goal is to murder anyone/anything that gets in their way (or things that are not in their way, that they go out of the way to kill)?

Well, spider's want live prey. This spider probably sees this murder hobo as a threat: some other animal that's killing and leaving its own food in the spider's territory. When the murder hobo goes to check on the spider, those bodies will have been moved to another, more open location. When the PC goes to check, we find out that its a Dire Trapdoor Spider and it wants to eliminate this encroaching enemy. The idea here isn't to kill the player, but to A) scare them away, if they succeed on some escape checks/dex saves or B) to capture them, giving the rest of the party a rescue mission, while the other player thinks about his choices.

Every time the MH PC does some MH-ing, they should feel a direct consequence. It's not always the town guard, but its also not never the town guard.

[Sigreid]

IMO, most player actions that are going to tend to derail the game into territory most other players at the table aren't interested in the DM should avoid playing out via framing the next scene well past whatever the player was doing. The DM shouldn't enlist consequences by sucking the fun out of the game for everyone because of 1 player.

One thing that can sometimes work is a table vote where the players characters just leave that PC behind and the DM tells the character to roll up a new PC that his character is now an NPC.

It's really the old man is awesome thing I'd avoid. I'd be totally cool with some immediate divine justice though.

[sambojin]

Just remember, there's no CR4 or less humanoid or beast being, that a Couatl can't be. And the next person this PC "kills" just flies away as an eagle *bamf*, a few HP before death. Divine retribution is at hand...

[Slipjig]

I'd personally avoid the Hidden Badasses trope. I mean, if the PCs try to round up and massacre an entire village, maybe 1-2 residents are retired adventurers. But once it turns out that several people in a row are actually CR 15 encounters, you have to wonder why they are hiring the PCs to begin with.

The town guard or bounty hunters should be sufficient to deal with this in-game, combined with a general unwillingness by decent people to deal with the characters. Also, even if the characters attempt to be sneaky about their murders, most pre-modern societies had very low thresholds for evidence. "Strangers show up in town" followed shortly by "murders happen" will probably be enough for the Town Guard or a mob to show up with nooses already tied.