Help with Sword Dancer of Eilistraee build.

[Spiderguy24]

Hey! So with the release of Xanathar's guide, and reading up more on the Dark Maiden, I've been thinking of a Drow Sword Dancer character that goes around and does his best to spread the good word and help the helpless. No he isn't going to be a whiny emo bitch or a Drizzt clone, it doesn't fit with the character. With that said, I am having a hard time coming up with a build that fits with the theme! Going by AL rules, I'm limited to PHB+1, so no College of Swords/Bladesinger combo sadly. With that said though, I'm open to other alternatives though! So... any awesome ideas?

[RedMage125]

Hey! So with the release of Xanathar's guide, and reading up more on the Dark Maiden, I've been thinking of a Drow Sword Dancer character that goes around and does his best to spread the good word and help the helpless. No he isn't going to be a whiny emo bitch or a Drizzt clone, it doesn't fit with the character. With that said, I am having a hard time coming up with a build that fits with the theme! Going by AL rules, I'm limited to PHB+1, so no College of Swords/Bladesinger combo sadly. With that said though, I'm open to other alternatives though! So... any awesome ideas?

Eilistraee is the light in the darkness for the drow, but that said...she is her mother's daughter. The small surface societies dedicated to her are dominated by the clergy, who are EXCLUSIVELY female. They're more benevolent than Lolth's to be sure, but they still thought of males as inferior.

In previous editions, the sword dancers were clerics (specialty priest kit in 2e, PrC in 3.5e), and thus HAD to be female. I don't think you necessarily have to stick with that, however. But I'd say the Swords Bard is a better starting platform then the wizard, if for no other reason than which stat you're building for.

I do like the Dark Maiden, though. If you want some great reading on her, read the Lady Penitent Trilogy by Lisa Smedman. Some things are easier to understand if you've read the War of the Spider Queen series before, but it's not-strictly speaking-necessary. It might give you some inspiration, especially if your DM is on board with the Masked Lady amalgam.

[Spiderguy24]

Eilistraee is the light in the darkness for the drow, but that said...she is her mother's daughter. The small surface societies dedicated to her are dominated by the clergy, who are EXCLUSIVELY female. They're more benevolent than Lolth's to be sure, but they still thought of males as inferior.

In previous editions, the sword dancers were clerics (specialty priest kit in 2e, PrC in 3.5e), and thus HAD to be female. I don't think you necessarily have to stick with that, however. But I'd say the Swords Bard is a better starting platform then the wizard, if for no other reason than which stat you're building for.

I do like the Dark Maiden, though. If you want some great reading on her, read the Lady Penitent Trilogy by Lisa Smedman. Some things are easier to understand if you've read the War of the Spider Queen series before, but it's not-strictly speaking-necessary. It might give you some inspiration, especially if your DM is on board with the Masked Lady amalgam.

I've done my research on the Dark Maiden as well, and no the clergy do not see males as inferior. At all. Male Sword Dancers are rare yes, but they don't stomp on your **** and tell you to gtfo like a Lolth priestess would. Swords Bard is a subclass I'm leaning heavily towards, just not sure if I should multiclass into the Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, or something else to keep the theme while still being optimal. I'm going for a build that is based around support, while still being very effective as a front line fighter that wears light armor.

Edit: When I can find the time, I'll look up those novels. But if I can't find them, I did find and read this > http://www.dmsguild.com/product/1763...-and-her-Faith which has a lot of info on her and her followers. Best of all, it's free!

[RedMage125]

I've done my research on the Dark Maiden as well, and no the clergy do not see males as inferior. At all. Male Sword Dancers are rare yes, but they don't stomp on your **** and tell you to gtfo like a Lolth priestess would. Swords Bard is a subclass I'm leaning heavily towards, just not sure if I should multiclass into the Cleric, Paladin, Warlock, or something else to keep the theme while still being optimal. I'm going for a build that is based around support, while still being very effective as a front line fighter that wears light armor.

Edit: When I can find the time, I'll look up those novels. But if I can't find them, I did find and read this > http://www.dmsguild.com/product/1763...-and-her-Faith which has a lot of info on her and her followers. Best of all, it's free!

In all the novels I've read, they absolutely do see males as inferior.

Wind Walker trilogy
War of the Spider Queen series
Lady Penitent Trilogy..in which males are EXPLICITLY not even allowed to WITNESS a lot of worship ceremonies the priestesses do.

It sounds like single-classed bard is what you're looking for.

[Spiderguy24]

In all the novels I've read, they absolutely do see males as inferior.

Wind Walker trilogy
War of the Spider Queen series
Lady Penitent Trilogy..in which males are EXPLICITLY not even allowed to WITNESS a lot of worship ceremonies the priestesses do.

It sounds like single-classed bard is what you're looking for.

I haven't read the novels, but it seems like the authors have NO idea how Eilistraee even thinks if they make her act like her mother. Or maybe this was all before 4e/5e and she's changed after dying and coming back to life. *Shrugs*

Single class Bard has been on my mind. Should work out.

[Wartex1]

Cleric/Kensei build could work.

Or College of Swords and Warlock Multiclass.

[Naanomi]

Kind of sounds like a serviceable version of Oath of Ancients tenants really

[lunaticfringe]

From what I recall of old realmslore.

Bladesinger. Maybe take Acolyte or custom up a background. I think in some version they were very close to Bladesingers.

Dex Arcana Cleric, drow come with Rapier so refluff that if you need to. Use Blade Cantrips to brawl. Take the Entertainer Background and if possible grab the Rage of Demons alternate Awesome At Being Underground Background feature.

Blade bard also seems appropriate.

[MrStabby]

Yeah, I agree - Dex oath of the ancients seems pretty sound for this.

Otherwise Dex war cleric? Fighter with a light cleric dip (or ranger).

I think there is a challenge as (from my understanding) you are dex focussed. You also want light themed spells and you want to be drow. So if you play to your theme you might be giving yourself a lot of disadvantage on attacks and all the attack type things that don't use attack rolls (shove, grapple) are strength based.

Is this AL or based on AL rules? Wondering what scope there is to tweak classes? Changing shadowmonk to a " light monk" might capture the theme well (sun soul abilities don't really seem to match so well). Swap darkness spell to daylight, swap illusion to light cantrip... This then gives you a base for a wisdom themed, light themed martial class. Add a level of light cleric to round out the theme? Of course this is only if it is loosely AL, rather than AL itself.

[Irennan]

In all the novels I've read, they absolutely do see males as inferior.

Wind Walker trilogy
War of the Spider Queen series
Lady Penitent Trilogy..in which males are EXPLICITLY not even allowed to WITNESS a lot of worship ceremonies the priestesses do.

It sounds like single-classed bard is what you're looking for.

In Windwalker the males aren't seen as inferior, far from it. In fact, one of them is even a lead figure among the priestesses of the Promenade. As for LP and WotSQ, they're among the worst material you can read to know about Eilistraee. Smedman warps her character to a deep degree, and her take on this goddess has a reputation for its many problem and inconsistencies with canon.

The example that you mention is just one of the countless cases of that author--and only her (alongside Athans, her editor)--warping Eilistraee and flat out contradicting her canon lore (keep in mind that Eilistraee is Ed Greenwood's character, not Smedman's). In fact, males not only can witness holy dances, but they take part to most rituals as well. To further expand on that example, Smedman got many rituals wrong. One of those--the Evensong--in Eilistraee's lore is basically an intimate moment of connection between the goddess and the followers. They freely let out all their emotions for Eilistraee to 'hear' them (it shows them that they're not alone in a world that has grown hostile to them, but that is their rightful home, and that the goddess is actually close to them). It's a very important ritual, that all her followers take part to (individually, generally alone), and tells a lot about their kind of faith. In Smedman's work, the Evensong magically turns into a generic chorus with fixed lyrics that only females can take part to (when in canon males take part to most rituals). Which leads to deeper alterations. Like males being effin' mutilated just for daring to watch a dance, when in truth they too can dance.

However, Smedman even goes much further, associating Eilistraee with things that are morally gross and disturbing, that diminish and completelty distort her goal, that have never belonged to her in 20+ years of existence and lore in the Realms and 10k+ years of her being a drow goddess in-universe, and that not even a deity who is vaguely non-evil would do, let alone Eilistraee (like the afore-mentioned mutilations and all the explicit misandrism). I could go on for long, if you wanted, but this thread is not the place for it, so we'll have to move it to PMs if you're interested.

Then again, Semdman's novels have been written under heavy editorial mandate to get rid of Eilistraee and make Drizzt look better (see: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19597), and her character was totally abused as a result.

It's not a case that the Lady Penitent books have completely been undone with the Sundering (Eilistraee and the other drow gods are alive again, Eilistraee no longer holds Vhaeraun's portfolio, etc...), and--before that--completely ignored (like not even a word was spent on those event after they were done).

--------------------------------

To the OP--if you like Eilistraee, I honestly recommend you to not read the LP novels. Horrible things happen in them, and you'll get a distroted idea of this goddess. If you want a novel about Eilistraee, read the Starlights and Shadows trilogy. Elaine Cunnigham's take on this goddess is subtle, but it nails her point very well in how she accompanies the main character in her journey, being there in al the important moments but never forcing anything on her.

As for the original question, I guess that a Sword College Bard would fit the flavor of a Sword Dancer of Eilistraee quite well. I also agreenwith those who mentioned a DEX oriented Oath of the Ancient Plaladin build--the Oath at the base of that subclass is a reworded version of Eilistraee's teachings.

I wrote a Sword Dancer cleric domain for Eilistraee (the one included in the document that you linked), but since you're playing AL, that's not an option. Glad that the document was of inspiration, tho.

[RedMage125]

Irennan,
Thanks for the more detailed info from other editions. I didn't know a lot of that stuff, may I ask which source you are quoting for your information? I have a massive backlog of 2e PDFs that I haven't perused yet, and I'd like to look into this myself, but don't know where to look.

I do, however, respectfully disagree with one of your points from the novels:

In Windwalker the males aren't seen as inferior, far from it. In fact, one of them is even a lead figure among the priestesses of the Promenade.

The ONLY reason that dude had any pull whatsoever was becayuse he was what's-her-name's consort (the high priestess at the Promenade...was it Quilue?). Anyway, that's the only novel example of a male Eilistraeean having any pull at all, and his authority came from the bedroom, which is distinctly similar to how Lolthite society works.

For my part, I like drow and find them fascinating BECAUSE they are evil. They make compelling villains-and potentially antiheroes. Which is why I liked the WotSQ series as a whole. An evil party, and a drow wizard with a sense of humor. Anyway, as far as drow deities go, I'm actually quite fond of Vhareaun.

Spoiler: Lady penitent Trilogy

Show

And yet, I was not irked at the end of LP1, because it sort of makes sense to me. Eilistraee is a dancer and a healer, yes, but she's also a fearsome warrior with a bastard sword, and Vhaeraun's plan depended on him catching her by surprise...which he did not. She knew he was coming. I do not doubt that if she had not been tiped off, he would have succeeded. I did find the Masked Lady stuff kind of interesting, particularly the influence of Vhaeraun's personality and profile on the Dark Maiden's personality (she became much more callous and ruthless). I'm also a big fan of the way Kiriansalee was taken out with Elven High Magic...probably would have failed if she had been anything more than a demigod, but it was cool. I REALLY enjoyed the appearance of Corellon at the end, though.

As for the original question, I guess that a Sword College Bard would fit the flavor of a Sword Dancer of Eilistraee quite well. I also agreenwith those who mentioned a DEX oriented Oath of the Ancient Plaladin build--the Oath at the base of that subclass is a reworded version of Eilistraee's teachings.

I wrote a Sword Dancer cleric domain for Eilistraee (the one included in the document that you linked), but since you're playing AL, that's not an option. Glad that the document was of inspiration, tho.

I'm checking that out, too. The main document (the On Eilistraee and her faith) keeps failing to download, though. Sad day.

[Irennan]

Irennan,
Thanks for the more detailed info from other editions. I didn't know a lot of that stuff, may I ask which source you are quoting for your information? I have a massive backlog of 2e PDFs that I haven't perused yet, and I'd like to look into this myself, but don't know where to look.

Demihuman Deities, The Drow of the Underdark, The Seven Sisters, just to mention some of them. Evermeet, Island of Elves (EC's novel) also includes some insinght into Eilistraee's character (and, once again, she is very warm and spontaneaous in her interaction with two males there, further pointing out that she isn't misandrist, at all). I mention a lot of sources in my document. Idk why it fails to DL for you, I just tried DLing it and it works fine :/

I do, however, respectfully disagree with one of your points from the novels:

The ONLY reason that dude had any pull whatsoever was becayuse he was what's-her-name's consort (the high priestess at the Promenade...was it Quilue?). Anyway, that's the only novel example of a male Eilistraeean having any pull at all, and his authority came from the bedroom, which is distinctly similar to how Lolthite society works.

Nothing in that novel suggests that Elkantar was in a lead position because he was Qilué's consort. I can see why you would think that, but in the book there wasn't really anything about it (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a long time). OTOH, those books definitely contain no sexism on the priestesses' side. Males are treated with respect. That said, I like that they are a matriarchy--a good example of matriarchy.

That doesn't automatically means sexism, and it doesn't absolutely mean misandrism--even more so when the difficulty that males had to become clerics (a difficulty that no longer is there) was due to Eilistraee's own nature of a mother-goddess rather than deliberate on Eilistraee's side (even in the sense of goddess of fertility, according to Ed). Males are usually given leadership when they're the best in their specialized fields (it might bery well be Ekantar's case), outside of the clergy they have the same role as females, and there's the possibility for them to become 'decision makers', even if rare.

However, keep in mind that It's also a racial thing: Eiistraeean communites tend to be led by priestesses, and drow males are far less likely to become clerics than females (or so was in 3e)--Vhaeraun and Selv being exceptions (but then, they mostly appeal to males, so it's a given that their clerics are generally males).

Eilistraee's priestesses are intended to be an extension of the goddess's mothering of the drow: warriors, yes, but also those who would care for the drow and helpo them forge their place in the world. That's not bad at all, and is what Ed Greenwood has in mind for the Dark Maiden and her followers. Smedman and Athans, however, associated them with misandrism for whatever reason.

For my part, I like drow and find them fascinating BECAUSE they are evil. They make compelling villains-and potentially antiheroes. Which is why I liked the WotSQ series as a whole. An evil party, and a drow wizard with a sense of humor. Anyway, as far as drow deities go, I'm actually quite fond of Vhareaun.

Their evil taken alone is very far-fetched, tho. The drow are an abused people. The vast majoirty of them bleeds without benefits. Their dreams are crushed when they are but children, they are denied basic elements of life, like the simple concept of genuine affection, or of choosing their own path. They are the meat of Lolth, yet they have total free will. It only makes sense for them to want to get away from that, that groups of them *will* at some point succeed and create different cultures, especially when you have deities like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun who have been there for them in Toril even before Lolth. It makes sense especially considering the history of the drow, since the Lolthite model isn't their 'natural' society. In short, you can have the bulk of them evil, but from a world-building perspective you also need nuance and variety. Especially since Ed Greenwood never meant the drow *of the Realms* to be mindlessly evil. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are his way to provide them depth and nuance.

And yet, I was not irked at the end of LP1, because it sort of makes sense to me. Eilistraee is a dancer and a healer, yes, but she's also a fearsome warrior with a bastard sword, and Vhaeraun's plan depended on him catching her by surprise...which he did not. She knew he was coming. I do not doubt that if she had not been tiped off, he would have succeeded.

It didn't make sense to me, for many reasons. 1)Vhaeraun is explicitly said to be more than willing to put differences aside to cooperate when it comes to defeating Lolth. Yet, the first thing he does in those novels is squandering resources on trying to kill his sister. 2)Vhaeraun's plan basically consisting on sneaking into Eilistraee's realm. Eilistraee's realm back then was on the broder of Arvanandor. Basically, Vhaeraun was walking into his death 3)Eilistraee is explicitly said to not hate her brother. She mourns his cruelty, but she firmly believes that good can be found even in the darkest soul, she's about compassion. She wouldn't have killed him, but tried to get him to work with her--or , in the worst case, trap him. She had all the means to: she was in her home plane, she had immediate assistance from supposedly allied deities--(in fact, Ed Greenwood then explained that she didn't, and that she merely borrowed his portfolio, before participating in a plan with Mystra to allow the survival of all 3 to what Mystra had seen coming).

I did find the Masked Lady stuff kind of interesting, particularly the influence of Vhaeraun's personality and profile on the Dark Maiden's personality (she became much more callous and ruthless).

I personally wasn't a fan of it. I would have far preferred to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun learning to smooth out their edges and work together, influencing each other, in their battle for the good of the drow. Much more character development there, rather than "BAM! Eilistraee got Vhaeraun's portfolio, things are now magically different". Glad that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are separate again in the current era, and that they have learned from each other (for example, male clerics of Eilistraee are now more frequent).

I'm also a big fan of the way Kiriansalee was taken out with Elven High Magic...probably would have failed if she had been anything more than a demigod, but it was cool.

That didn't make sense to me either. That's because that spell worked no matter the power of deity, simply because it targeted *every single being on the planet*. Really, if such a spell existed 1)why not use it on Lolth (in the worst case, it would have greatly weakened it and helped so many drow escape from her brainwashing) 2)why did a novice to high magic randomly use it, while the elves--the absolute master of high magic--didn't use it to get rid of all their enemies? 3)why not spam it?

On a side note, we learned that the spell didn't work as intended. Kiaransalee wasn't forgotten by all, since necromancers still remembered her name and invoked her to fuel their spells.

I REALLY enjoyed the appearance of Corellon at the end, though.

I found it telling of his character. He never gave a flying about his children, about helping his daughter with her cause. He never lifted a finger for her. He only came in at the very end, after doing absolutely nothing, after a misguided mage had turned a bunch of followers of Eilistraee (not even all of them, only hundreds among thousands of them) into brown elves, and merely to offer those few of them access to Arvandor (a pointless "reward" at that). In fact, that's all he did. He never proceeded to do anything about the drow when his daughter was absent, and now that Eilistraee returned, things are as she had left them.

It also was the culmination of Smedman's biggest offense to Eilistraee's character, i.e. how she warped her idea of redemption.

Spoiler: lots of text about the above

Show

Eilistraee's whole MO when it comes to the drow is based on her understanding of them. Eilistraee chose to be "one of them", to share their fate when she was but a girl, in order to be by their side in the times of need. Eilistraee can feel and understand their desire for a better life, she can still see their beauty that has been lost to darkness (even when basically all others see them as monsters), and works set that spark alight again.

She strives for the drow to experience all that they've been missing on in life. She helps them rediscover the sheer joy of existence and of freely chasing their dreams, she unconditionally loves them, and makes them understand the strength and beauty in sisterhood/brotherhood. Basically, she leads the drow out of their prison (and, weirdly, comfort zone) to make see the world, to expand their horizons, and open their eyes. She wants them to understand that a different existence is possible and fulfilling (unlike they're brainwashed), and helps them to embrace it and find their own path.

That's Eilistraee's idea of redemption for the drow, one that can only come from understanding and choice (in fact, in her lore and previous appearances, she's always gentle, even subtle: she is there in every important moment of the journey of her people, helping them in practical ways, providing comfort when they feel defeated or alone, etc... but never pressuring any choice, and letting things come naturally--you can really see this in Starlights and Shadows with Liriel, and the fact that she works to never force choices on mortals is also in the lore about this goddess. In Lady Penitent, instead, the metaphor used to describe Eilistraee's relationship with the drow is her playing chess using her people as pawns. This alone goes against so much of what makes her unique).

Smedman also reduced her idea of redemption to undoing the drow equivalent of the Original Sin, which really comes out of nowhere and makes no sense, because Eilistraee doesn't care about the curse. In her lore that has never been mentioned, not once. She has a very positive attitude. The "curse" is now no longer such, but part of who the drow are, and Eilistraee acts as a mother goddess to the drow as a whole race, to help them flourish again, not force them to change their race. If she wanted to remove the curse, she'd just have worked towards it. However, she never made a move, she has never cared. In over 10k+ in-universe years (and 20+ years of existing in the published Realms), she never nudged any of her followers towards it, she never spoke about that, not even once.

She instead embraced the curse so she would be closer to her people and show them that joy can be found even amidst suffering and despair. And rightfully so, because when you are born as a drow, why would you be forced to give up on who you are? Picture any of them, after all the abuse they receive, being finally rescued and given a new chance, only to be told that they have to be "redeemed for their drow-ness" first, or it's a no-no... that would never lead any of them to choose a different path. That's absolutely not what they need, but to be given value for who they are in their entirety, and that's what Eilistraee does.

If we think about it, considering the events in the novels, that "uncursing" was actually a violence, and carried really ugly implications. Basically, those who underwent the transformation were forced to do so (the casters themselves are shown to be horrified). They were forced to give up the bodies they were born with, what they were, and the reason for that was that Corellon and the elves wouldn't accept them unless they renounced to their identity as drow. Basically, it showed them that their choice in life didn't matter, to be accepted they had to give up part of their identity.

Additionally, Smedman decided to have Eilistraee choose to abandon the vast majority of the drow (again, the very people whose battle, curse, and suffering Eilistraee chose to share) to their fate, in order to force a handful of her followers to change their appearance (in fact only hundreds of them were transformed, out of thousands), because in Semdman's mind this was her goal all along--and that, as we know, is infinitely far from being true. On top of that, the reason provided was "lol, the rest is unwilling and unredeemable, 'cuz reasons". That is very clearly something that not only would never even cross Eilistraee's mind, because it would defeat all that she has ever believed in, but also makes 0 sense, given that most of Eilistraee's followers came (and still come) from the group of drow that was labeled as "unwilling" in those novels.

Basically, WotC were pushing their 4e version of the drow, they commissioned Smedman to write them, and used Eilistraee to try to force their idea of "unredeemably evil drow except for Drizzt", even when that goddess represents the very contrary of that. It's also the reason why, even tho I'm really happy that Eilistraee (and all the drow gods) are back, I really, really want a novel that describes their return, if only to show the true face of the Dark Maiden.

[RedMage125]

Idk why it fails to DL for you, I just tried DLing it and it works fine :/

It finally worked. I'm in port in Dubai, UAE right now, and the internet is spotty.

Nothing in that novel suggests that Elkantar was in a lead position because he was Qilué's consort. I can see why you would think that, but in the book there wasn't really anything about it (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a long time). OTOH, those books definitely contain no sexism on the priestesses' side. Males are treated with respect. That said, I like that they are a matriarchy--a good example of matriarchy. That doesn't automatically means sexism, and it doesn't absolutely mean misandrism. Eilistraee's priestesses are intended to be an extension of Eilistraee's mothering of the drow, warriors, yes, but also those who would care for the drow and helpo them forge their place in the world. That's what Ed Greenwood has in mind for the Dark Maiden and her followers. Smedman and Athans, however, associated them with misandrism for whatever reason.

And yet, he's the ONLY male with any authority or respect whatsoever. He's basically got the position of "most favored male" which seems to stem from no other significant source than his relationship with Quilue.

Their evil taken alone is very far-fetched, tho. The drow are an abused people. The vast majoirty of them bleeds without benefits. Their dreams are crushed when they are but children, they are denied basic elements of life, like the simple concept of genuine affection, or of choosing their own path. They are the meat of Lolth, yet they have total free will. It only makes sense for them to have different cultures, especially when you have deities like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun who have been there for them in Toril even before Lolth, and especially considering the history of the drow. In short, you can have the bulk of them evil, but from a world-building perspective you also need nuance and variety. Especially since Ed Greenwood never meant the drow *of the Realms* to be mindlessly evil. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are his way to provide them depth and nuance.

My first drow character ever was a 3e Drow Monk who was Lawful Evil, and a Vhaeraunite. He had a personal code of "honor" (more professionalism), which was more about "staying bought" when hired to do something. But he was still evil. Had no respect for life, and valued the arts of stealth, deception, and manipulation. He resides now as a high level NPC in my home campaign world (In 3.5e, he was a Monk 11/Assassin 9, now in 5e, he'd be a multiclassed Shadow Monk/Assassin Rogue).

It didn't make sense to me, for many reasons. 1)Vhaeraun is explicitly said to be more than willing to put differences aside to cooperate when it comes to defeating Lolth. Yet, the first thing he does in those novels is squandering resources on trying to kill his sister. 2)Vhaeraun's plan basically consisting on sneaking into Eilistraee's realm. Eilistraee's realm back then was on the broder of Arvanandor. Basically, Vhaeraun was walking into his death 3)Eilistraee is explicitly said to not hate her brother. She mourns his cruelty, but she firmly believes that good can be found even in the darkest soul, she's about compassion. She wouldn't have killed him, but tried to get him to work with her--or , in the worst case, trap him. She had all the means to: she was in her home plane, she had immediate assistance from supposedly allied deities--(in fact, Ed Greenwood then explained that she didn't, and that she merely borrowed his portfolio, before participating in a plan with Mystra to allow the survival of all 3 to what Mystra had seen coming).

And yet, with nothing explicitly stating that the two would cooperate, what we had was a wealth of examples of the Eilistraeans and the Cormanthor drow coming into conflict. Drow who lived on the surface and continued to murder and conquer were an impediment to what the Dark Maiden was trying to accomplish. Vhaeraun, for his part, was-I think-trying to make a bid for his sister's power in order to combat their mother.

Remember that Vhaeraun supported Aurushnee's coup attempt. Eilistraee did not.

I personally wasn't a fan of it. I would have far preferred to see Eilistraee and Vhaeraun learning to smooth out their edges and work together, influencing each other, in their battle for the good of the drow. Much more chharacter development there, rather than "BAM! Eilistraee got Vhaeraun's portfolio, she now is magically changed". Glad that Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are separate again in the current era, and that they have learned from each other.

I just found it interesting. The Masked Lady seemed more CN than CG. She seemed a blend of the two deities, rather than a Dark Maiden who just gained more power.

That didn't make sense to me either. That's because that spell worked no matter the power of deity, simply because it targeted *every single being on the planet*. Really, if such a spell existed 1)why not use it on Lolth (in the worst case, it would have greatly weakened it and helped so many drow escape from her brainwashing) 2)why did a novice to high magic randomly use it, while the elves--the absolute master of high magic--didn't use it to get rid of all their enemies? 3)why not spam it?

What makes the most sense to me is that a deity's power is based on their followers, as per Ao's Time of Troubles decree. Even an epic spell (which is what High Magic is) can still only affect a limited number of people, and even then, only for a short period. It would have only weakened Lolth for a few moments. But for a deity as limited as Kiaransalee, she had few enough followers that they were ALL affected-if only for a few minutes. All it did was make them forget her NAME. not that they served a goddess of undeath and vengeance. And that meant that-for a few minutes-she had ZERO followers, which was sufficient to destroy her. Also keep in mind the meta-game here. Kiaransalee entered the sava game, putting her very existence on the line, and agreeing to abide-for all time-by the outcome thereof.

On a side note, we learned that the spell didn't work as intended. Kiaransalee wasn't forgotten by all, since necromancers still remembered her name and invioked her to fuel their spells.

They remembered her name afterwards. Again, that exhaustive epic spell only caused them to forget her name for just long enough to destroy her. She likely only existed as a vestige afterwards.

I found him telling of his character. He never gave a flying about his children, about helping his daughter with her cause. He never lifted a finger for her. He only came in at the very end, after doing absolutely nothing, after a misguided mage had turned a bunch of followers of Eilistraee (not even all of the, only hundreds amiong thousands of them) into brown elves, and merely to offer those few of them access to Arvandor (a pointless "reward" at that). In fact, that's all he did. He never proceeded to do anything about the drow when his daughter was absent, and Eilistraee found things as she had left them after her return.

Okay, first of all, the part about it only affecting "hundreds" instead of "all" was a retcon, to make the Sundering (and thus 5e) be able to be more in tune with the previous editions. The intent, as it was written at the time, was that ALL of Eilistraee's redeemed children (and the small number of untainted drow) were converted to dark elves.
Of course he did nothing for them before. None of them EVER asked him to. We have no evidence of a drow attempting to return to the Seldarine's good graces and seeking redemption or help from them. Corellon made a deal with Eilistraee. He left the redemption of the drow to her. The Dark Maiden is many things, and one of them is headstrong. Eilistraee CHOSE to put her life on the line against Lolth. For Corellon to do anything to interfere would undermine her. She wanted to do it herself, just as she WANTED to be included in the banishment from Arvandor so that she would be in a place to do so. But, as per the boundaries of his agreement with Eilistraee, and the terms of the Descent, once they were no longer "drow", they were once again his desmene. It was not until the Descent was undone that he was even in a position to step in and do something. And, after all, once the Descent was undone for the drow who had been redeemed by his daughter (and the untainted descendants of those who never should have been included in the Descent in the first place), Corellon had no further interest in the rest of the drow as anything other than enemies. Why should he?

Yes, once you include the retcon that the undoing of the Descent was NOT, in fact, universal among those it was supposed to affect, Corellon's actions seem lax, indifferent, and ineffectual. But I don't think it's really fair to judge him that way, when the intent as written was that ALL of the redeemed or untainted drow were turned into dark elves.

I rather enjoyed him slapping her hand with his sword, addressing her by her old name, and taking a seat opposite her. If anything, it showed-to me-that with his daughter gone, and all drow "worth saving" (by HIS metric, not Eilistraee's) already redeemed, it was now time to take a more firm and active stance of opposition against Lolth. He wasn't going to step in while it would have been stepping on his daughter's toes, and while Eilistraee wanted to keep redeeming as many drow as possible, Corellon had no reason to see them as anything other than enemies.

I'm skipping your detailed analysis of Eilistraee's outlook because I have nothing to add or discuss about it, btw, not because I don't like it.

Smedman also reduced her idea of redemption to undoing the drow equivalent of the Original Sin, which really comes out of nowhere and makes no sense, because Eilistraee doesn't care about the curse. In her lore that has never been mentioned, not once. She has a very positive attitude. The "curse" is now no longer such, but part of who the drow are, and Eilistraee acts as a mother goddess to the drow as a whole race, to help them flourish again, not force them to change their race. If she wanted to remove the curse, she'd just have worked towards it. However, she never made a move, she has never cared. In over 10k+ in-universe years (and 20+ years of existing in the published Realms), she never nudged any of her followers towards it, she never spoke about that, not even once.

She instead embraced the curse so she would be closer to her people and show them that joy can be found even amidst suffering and despair. And rightfully so, because when you are born as a drow, why would you be forced to give up on who you are? Picture any of them, after all the abuse they receive, being finally rescued and given a new chance, only to be told that they have to be "redeemed for their drow-ness" first, or it's a no-no... that would never lead any of them to choose a different path. That's absolutely not what they need, but to be given value for who they are in their entirety, and that's what Eilistraee does.

If we think about it, considering the events in the novels, that "uncursing" was actually a violence, and carried really ugly implications. Basically, those who underwent the transformation were forced to do so (the casters themselves are shown to be horrified). They were forced to give up the bodies they were born with, what they were, and the reason for that was that Corellon and the elves wouldn't accept them unless they renounced to their identity as drow. Basically, it showed them that their choice in life didn't matter, to be accepted they had to give up part of their identity.

I'll agree that the "taint" of demon blood came out of nowhere and has never been mentioned before in Realms Lore. That was a bit jarring. it was one thing when Quarlynd made the discovery by using the kiira, that makes sense. Mortals may not have known. But then it seems to be common knowledge among all the Eilistraeeans. THAT was really odd, and an inconsistency in a work that only had one author (Smedman). But the actual CURSE-that is, to say, the marking of the drow and banishment to the Underdark-has been a part of D&D Lore (in the Realms and others-see 2e's Complete Book of Elves) for years. If I remember correctly, it was in the battle between Lolth and Corellon, that when she was struck down and driven into the earth, her followers "turned their faces away from the light of the sun, preferring instead their fallen goddess" or something like that, and thus their skin was blackened, their hair turned white, and they were forever marked for their CHOICE (now that was a more setting-neutral description of the Descent, not straight FR).

But I never got from the LP trilogy at all that Eilistraee's "idea of redemption" was undoing the curse or the taint. It seemed that she considered them OBSTACLES to redemption. Remember how you mentioned Eilistraee "taking them out of their comfort zone"? Well, the very curse that made them drow also bound them to the faezress of the Underdark. So literally, their comfort WAS part of the curse. So many drow feel out of sorts, out of whack, when on the surface. Their magic doesn't always work right (Liriel comes to mind), the light of the surface is painful (even to Driz'zt), and for many, the taint of demon blood makes them ENJOY violence (even...what was Halisstra's lover's name...Ryld?). The removal of the taint and the curse were not "goals", they were STEPS towards a goal. And I think that's an important distinction when indicting the portrayal of the goddess in Smedman's work. Because I'm willing to concede that maybe Smedman was a little too free with the misandry in her portrayal of Eilistraee, but I disagree with your assessment of "her ideas of redemption".

Additionally, Smedman decided to have Eilistraee choose to abandon the vast majority of the drow (again, the very people whose battle, curse, and suffering Eilistraee chose to share) to their fate, in order to force a handful of her followers to change their appearance (in fact only hundreds of them were transformed, out of thousands), because in Semdman's mind this was her goal all along--and that, as we know, is infinitely far from being true. On top of that, the reason provided was "lol, the rest is unwilling and unredeemable, 'cuz reasons". That is very clearly something that not only would never even cross Eilistraee's mind, because it would defeat all that she has ever believed in, but also makes 0 sense, given that most of Eilistraee's followers came (and still come) from the group of drow that was labeled as "unwilling" in those novels.

Again, before the retcon, it was ALL of her followers, and those who were innocent of the demon's taint (and were thus descended from those who never even sided with Lolth during the Crown Wars) who got changed. Ultimately, the change to make them no longer drow WAS part of Eilistraee's original plan. The plan she conceived when she volunteered to be cursed with her mother and sister, so that she could be a light of redemption for them. That was how she and her followers originally looked, after all. You seem to think that Eilistraee somehow embraces the black skin and white hair that marks all drow, but you forget that she was born with brown skin and black hair, and that such is how she ORIGINALLY views herself and all of her beloved followers. She never forgot that their current appearance was not only a mark of shame, but the mark of evil, the mark that said that THEY WERE NOT WELCOME in Arvandor (as a whole). It was a visible mark that said that they were UN-ELVEN. Drow are NOT considered "Tel-Quessir", which, if you remember, means "the people". To the elves, drow are NOT PEOPLE.

So yes, I absolutely believe that Eilistraee would have been in favor of that transformation for her followers-with the caveat that they were given a choice. I think a lot of her followers would want to continue to LOOK like drow for the purposes of redeeming more drow. Easier to convince someone to listen to you if they think you're one of them, after all.

But I agree that Eilistraee would not have written any of them off. Corellon would, which is why I above specified that HIS metric was different than hers, but at that point her metric was moot because she was dead.

Basically, WotC were pushing their 4e version of the drow, they commissioned Smedman to write them, and used Eilistraee to try to force their idea of "unredeemably evil drow except for Drizzt", even when that goddess represents the very contrary of that. It's also the reason why, even tho I'm really happy that Eilistraee (and all the drow gods) are back, I really, really want a novel that describes their return, if only to show the true face of the Dark Maiden.

I do recognize that LP was done to "clean up" the drow pantheon. But I never knew it was about "highlighting Driz'zt". I saw it as a part of the overall goal of reducing the RIDICULOUS number of deities FR had. I really LIKED that 4e went away from deities being solely racial. In core 4e, Corellon is worshipped by many elves and eladrin, but he is the god of music, creativity, and summer for ALL races. Moradin is the god of creation for ALL races, although dwarves feel special kinship with him, Bahamut is the god of protection and guardianship for everyone, and so on. I saw the LP trilogy as cleaning up the overstuffed pantheon to make way for THAT design goal of deities. Interesting to see the devs admit that it was all about Driz'zt. Gross.

[Spiderguy24]

While there was a bit of a hijack, I say keep it going! More and more people need to know that you can make a good Drow that isn't Drizzt, but also that Eilistraee is very interesting!

In terms of suggestions, keep them coming as well! Sure it's made my job a tiny bit harder due to how well they fit the concept, but they are still very good ideas! Question. Would a Paladin (Ancients) X/Bards (Swords)5 multiclass be a good option?

[Irennan]

And yet, he's the ONLY male with any authority or respect whatsoever. He's basically got the position of "most favored male" which seems to stem from no other significant source than his relationship with Quilue.

True, but--as I said--Matriarchy=/= sexism. I've already talked about the role of the priestesses in such a system, and that's not based on abuse, discrimination, or the likes, but on nurturing and protecting the drow. Matriarchy is not an inherently bad things, and the followers of Eilistraee are meant to be an example of that. Besides, Elkantar was a skilled warrior/tactician, so assuming that it was just a bedroom thing is jumping to conclusions.

I can understand some sexism being present among the followers of the goddess, given that some are converts (and that's in fact canon), but when misandrism is the norm, even in long-standing communities that have built their own culture, you're not portraying Eilistraee, but Lolth lite (and for sure misandrism isn't a trait that belongs to Eilistraee herself, who chose to be a mother to *all* drow).

And yet, with nothing explicitly stating that the two would cooperate, what we had was a wealth of examples of the Eilistraeans and the Cormanthor drow coming into conflict. Drow who lived on the surface and continued to murder and conquer were an impediment to what the Dark Maiden was trying to accomplish. Vhaeraun, for his part, was-I think-trying to make a bid for his sister's power in order to combat their mother.

There is lore that says that the two would cooperate if that meant getting rid of Lolth. Or, at least, that the two would be more likely to cooperate that bickering when so much is at stake. Of course they would come to conflict in a different situation, but that was a particular one. Vhaeraun walking into certain death is also still there, and very OOC.

Remember that Vhaeraun supported Aurushnee's coup attempt. Eilistraee did not.

Both of them see Lolth as a greater enemy, tho. Vhaeraun flat out hates her.

I just found it interesting. The Masked Lady seemed more CN than CG. She seemed a blend of the two deities, rather than a Dark Maiden who just gained more power.

In the books there are scenes where we see that Eilistraee is still Eilistraee at her core. Ed Greenwood also confirmed that. Vhaeraun's portfolio was leading her to act in different ways. An interaction between brother and sister would have been far more interesting than "magic happens" for that, that was my point.

What makes the most sense to me is that a deity's power is based on their followers, as per Ao's Time of Troubles decree. Even an epic spell (which is what High Magic is) can still only affect a limited number of people, and even then, only for a short period. It would have only weakened Lolth for a few moments. But for a deity as limited as Kiaransalee, she had few enough followers that they were ALL affected-if only for a few minutes. All it did was make them forget her NAME. not that they served a goddess of undeath and vengeance. And that meant that-for a few minutes-she had ZERO followers, which was sufficient to destroy her.

The spell is said to be powerful enough to delete the name of an entity from the mind of all beings on Toril. That means that, no matter how powerful you are, your name gets forgotten. Even if it doesn't affect all, the spell would be strong enough to deprive Lolth of many followers, and bring them to other deities, or to freedom. Besides, the spell could be spammed to make all the drow in the world suddenly forget about Lolth. I mean, such a spell would be so stupidly overpowered to be ridiculous. It would be even more ridiculous that the elves never used it. I've already explained the other things that I find to be problematic about this.

Also keep in mind the meta-game here. Kiaransalee entered the sava game, putting her very existence on the line, and agreeing to abide-for all time-by the outcome thereof.

That game was mostly a metaphor. It had to be, for 2 reasons. 1)things happen that wouldn't make sense otherwise, like Selvetarm being killed in his own plane, and then appearing alive and well at the table before being killed there 2)If the game was real, no action in the novel would have any meaning. There are two chances: either the game is real, which means that moves determine mortals' actions and successes, making the main novels pointless. Or the game is a metaphor, or yet--say--a move can only be done after the mortals have achieved the equivalent result IRL. That would make the game pointless except as a metaphor.

Okay, first of all, the part about it only affecting "hundreds" instead of "all" was a retcon, to make the Sundering (and thus 5e) be able to be more in tune with the previous editions. The intent, as it was written at the time, was that ALL of Eilistraee's redeemed children (and the small number of untainted drow) were converted to dark elves.

That was the mage's intent, but it failed. I remeber that Eilistraee even withdrew her favor from the spell at some point, and the angels in the novels explicitly say that hundreds of drow have been transformed, when Eilistraee--as a lesser power--has thousands of them minimum.

Of course he did nothing for them before. None of them EVER asked him to. We have no evidence of a drow attempting to return to the Seldarine's good graces and seeking redemption or help from them. Corellon made a deal with Eilistraee. He left the redemption of the drow to her. The Dark Maiden is many things, and one of them is headstrong. Eilistraee CHOSE to put her life on the line against Lolth. For Corellon to do anything to interfere would undermine her. She wanted to do it herself, just as she WANTED to be included in the banishment from Arvandor so that she would be in a place to do so. But, as per the boundaries of his agreement with Eilistraee, and the terms of the Descent, once they were no longer "drow", they were once again his desmene. It was not until the Descent was undone that he was even in a position to step in and do something. And, after all, once the Descent was undone for the drow who had been redeemed by his daughter (and the untainted descendants of those who never should have been included in the Descent in the first place), Corellon had no further interest in the rest of the drow as anything other than enemies. Why should he?

Yes, once you include the retcon that the undoing of the Descent was NOT, in fact, universal among those it was supposed to affect, Corellon's actions seem lax, indifferent, and ineffectual. But I don't think it's really fair to judge him that way, when the intent as written was that ALL of the redeemed or untainted drow were turned into dark elves.

Eilistraee chose to become a mother to the drow, not to be alone and gimp herself by refusing any and all help. She's headstrong in that she didn't agree with Corellon's choice in punishing the drow like that and acts to forge her own path, not in that she would endanger heself and her people by refusing help. In fact, nowhere it is said that she'd refuse the help of the Seldarine, she'd likely be overjoyed if they decided to actively support her.

The way she's headstrong is that she chose to be one of them not to undo their descent, but to be by their side in the times of need. She became drow, because--as I said--being a drow is no longer a curse, but part of their identity, and she wanted to share their struggle and desire of a batter life in a way that wouldn't have otherwise be possible. If you read the lore about Eilistraee, she's all about helping the drow take back their future, the joy that was denied to them, making them rediscover life and embrace it anew, and helping them forging their place in the world--all of this *as drow*. There's nothing about changing their skin, and it makes sense. Even if Eilistraee wasn't born as a drow, the drow are. The way they were born is their original and true form, it's part of who they are. To tell them that in order to be accepted they need to give up that, after all the abuse that they received, is definitely not what they need and would only turn her towards their old ways (I'll say more on that below). That's why I said that this is absolutely not part of her character, and that Smedman warped her by tacking this on her.

The fact that Corellon didn't help, that he doesn't bother to be more open to what Eilistraee is trying to achieve, that he had no interest in the drow except as enemies while *knowing* that they are free-willed and that he had cursed many inncoents, that he believed that changing the skin color of a handful of drow was the high end of her daughter's cause and all that was needed to be done, is what tells a lot about his character and what makes my point. He just doesn't care and has such a narrow perspective of things, but that has always been part of him since the very beginning of the Realms, even in the lorebooks (with how she handled the whole curse--I'll explain later--or the unnecessarily cruel way that he exiled Araushnee, etc...).

There was also no agreement that said that Corellon couldn't help his daughter (when Eilistraee made her choice to wander with the drow, Corellon merely was sorrowful, but they didn't split tasks or anything like that). Eilistraee never claimed exclusive domain on her quest to offer a new life to the drow either. For Corellon to help her wouldn't be the same as undermining her, it would give her more chances. Also, there was no agreement that said that uncursed drow would automatically belong to Corellon. Again, as mortals, it would be their choice, and Eilistraee even has elven followers, so...

I rather enjoyed him slapping her hand with his sword, addressing her by her old name, and taking a seat opposite her. If anything, it showed-to me-that with his daughter gone, and all drow "worth saving" (by HIS metric, not Eilistraee's) already redeemed, it was now time to take a more firm and active stance of opposition against Lolth. He wasn't going to step in while it would have been stepping on his daughter's toes, and while Eilistraee wanted to keep redeeming as many drow as possible, Corellon had no reason to see them as anything other than enemies.

See my point above. Eilistraee never said "no, I don't need anyone's help", that has never been mentioned in anything about her. It was her choice to stand with the drow that made her relationship with the Seldarine strained (see Demihuman Deities), not a deliberate choice on her side, hence my comment on Corellon. And I mean, how could she make such a choice when--among the other things--she wants elves and drow to be together again? It would be self-defeating. Any decent father who actually cared for his daughter would have helped and tried to understand his daughter rather than hiding behind those excuses, especially because *he* contributed to all this, since the idea of the curse was wrong to being with and for many reasons, but--as I said--I'll discuss it later.

What you're saying would put Corellon in an even worse light. That's essentially saying that Eilistraee is an obstacle for his plans, and that in that short time when she was absent he could go berserk and punish drow as he pleased. It wouldn't make much sense either, since if by his metric Eilistraee's followers are worth to be saved, then all drow are, because all drow can become Eilistraee's followers. Unless you meant only the handful drow who were 'untainted' (which would make he look even worse than worse).

I'll agree that the "taint" of demon blood came out of nowhere and has never been mentioned before in Realms Lore. That was a bit jarring. it was one thing when Quarlynd made the discovery by using the kiira, that makes sense. Mortals may not have known. But then it seems to be common knowledge among all the Eilistraeeans. THAT was really odd, and an inconsistency in a work that only had one author (Smedman). But the actual CURSE-that is, to say, the marking of the drow and banishment to the Underdark-has been a part of D&D Lore (in the Realms and others-see 2e's Complete Book of Elves) for years. If I remember correctly, it was in the battle between Lolth and Corellon, that when she was struck down and driven into the earth, her followers "turned their faces away from the light of the sun, preferring instead their fallen goddess" or something like that, and thus their skin was blackened, their hair turned white, and they were forever marked for their CHOICE (now that was a more setting-neutral description of the Descent, not straight FR).

But I never got from the LP trilogy at all that Eilistraee's "idea of redemption" was undoing the curse or the taint. It seemed that she considered them OBSTACLES to redemption. Remember how you mentioned Eilistraee "taking them out of their comfort zone"? Well, the very curse that made them drow also bound them to the faezress of the Underdark. So literally, their comfort WAS part of the curse. So many drow feel out of sorts, out of whack, when on the surface. Their magic doesn't always work right (Liriel comes to mind), the light of the surface is painful (even to Driz'zt), and for many, the taint of demon blood makes them ENJOY violence (even...what was Halisstra's lover's name...Ryld?). The removal of the taint and the curse were not "goals", they were STEPS towards a goal. And I think that's an important distinction when indicting the portrayal of the goddess in Smedman's work. Because I'm willing to concede that maybe Smedman was a little too free with the misandry in her portrayal of Eilistraee, but I disagree with your assessment of "her ideas of redemption".

Smedman was far too free with misandry. Misandry doesn't belong to Eilistraee--or any good deity--at all. Nor does dictation of faith (she's basically the opposite of this, heh), or other stuff that Smedman happily associates with her. Similarly, by the way her characters talk, Smedman wants the reader to understand that changing the skin color of a handful of drow was Eilistraee's goal all along. It's literally what they say, it's honestly gross, and it couldn't be farther from the truth.

As for the curse, I never said that it wasn't real, just that Eilistraee never cared about undoing that. On a side note, the curse wasn't born like that. During the Crown Wars, far after Lolth's banishment, the Ilythiiri rulers, mages, and nobles were corrupted by Lolth. When Corellon and the Elven Court found out, they cursed the whole people. Commoners, kids, innocents, survivors followers of Eilistraee (who had been exterminated by the Sun Elves before that, leaving Eilistraee's influence reduced to basically non-relevance). All became drow, and then the elves violently drove them underground.

As I said, being a drow is part of a drow identity, just like being a human is part of a human identity, and it isn't right to work to undo that, nor that has ever been Eilistraee's goal. OTOH, it's something that she embraced (see below). What I meant for "taking them out of their comfort zone" is that Eilistraee ,eams to show them experiences that they have never made, feelings that have been suppressed in them, that part of them that has been silenced by all the cruelty that surrounded them, but that is still there deep inside all of the drow. It makes no sense trying to bring her followers, the targets of the spell, out of their comfort zone, because they have already been taken out of it, they have already opened their eyes (and turning a handful of "pure Miyeritari" into brown elves is hardly going to take them out of their comfort zone. It's also way more likely to get them killed in the Underdark, which is what happened). As for the practicalities that you point out, they were artificially created by Smedman. The followers of Eilistraee have never felt out of the whack on the surface, except when they first set foot there (and, again, that's obvious: when you rise a bird in a cage and sets them free, they won't fare very well at the beginning. However, you don't need to change the color of their plumage to help them retake their freedom).

Liriel fixed the magic thing (and it's not like the followers of Eilistraee or Vhaeraun have ever suffered for that, for like 10k+ years, so it wans't really an obstacle), it only takes 10 years for a drow to adapt to sunlight, and that's nothing to a dark elf. Those aren't really obstacles. The curse has little to do with drow feeling lost on the suface either. Birds who grew up in cages would feel lost if suddenly put in a foreign environment. It's the same thing, and it's what I meant by gently guiding the drow out of their confort zone: making them see what they're missing on in life.

The Faerzress has nothing to do with the curse either, that was yet another Smedman's gaffe (and there are many others) that she used to enforce her point. The drow have never been addicted to faerzress (once again, nothing in the history of the drow points to that. Liriel wasn't addicted, she just saw her magic as part of her identity. In fact, Ysolde and the others weren't addicted at all and were wondering why Liriel couldn't let go of that), and the faerzress is a radiation that dates back to before the elves arrived on Toril, not a creation of the elves (when I read what Smedman wrote, I was like "WTH, has she even tried doing some research?")

Again, before the retcon, it was ALL of her followers, and those who were innocent of the demon's taint (and were thus descended from those who never even sided with Lolth during the Crown Wars) who got changed. Ultimately, the change to make them no longer drow WAS part of Eilistraee's original plan. The plan she conceived when she volunteered to be cursed with her mother and sister, so that she could be a light of redemption for them. That was how she and her followers originally looked, after all. You seem to think that Eilistraee somehow embraces the black skin and white hair that marks all drow, but you forget that she was born with brown skin and black hair, and that such is how she ORIGINALLY views herself and all of her beloved followers. She never forgot that their current appearance was not only a mark of shame, but the mark of evil, the mark that said that THEY WERE NOT WELCOME in Arvandor (as a whole). It was a visible mark that said that they were UN-ELVEN. Drow are NOT considered "Tel-Quessir", which, if you remember, means "the people". To the elves, drow are NOT PEOPLE.

So yes, I absolutely believe that Eilistraee would have been in favor of that transformation for her followers-with the caveat that they were given a choice. I think a lot of her followers would want to continue to LOOK like drow for the purposes of redeeming more drow. Easier to convince someone to listen to you if they think you're one of them, after all.

But I agree that Eilistraee would not have written any of them off. Corellon would, which is why I above specified that HIS metric was different than hers, but at that point her metric was moot because she was dead.

And that's excatly what Smedman got wrong. First, yes, even before Eilistraee was resurrected, only a few hundreds of her followers were changed (as I said above). Second, Eilistraee did indeed embrace that new look (heck, she even built her whole aesthetics around that), just like she embraced being one of her people (see below). Changing the appearance of the drow has never been part of Eilistraee's plan, because of the reasons that I pointed out, and because her idea of redeption stems from choice and inner change. Eilistraee wants to lead the drow to embrace a different kind of life, to smile again inside, and wants to show to the other races that the drow can create and nurture, not only destroy and self-destruct. She wants to demolish that attitude, that opinion that the drow are "not people", or "non-elves" (actually, the whole "non-people", Tel'Quessir/N'Tel'Q... concept that the elves have going on flat-out goes against her ideals of unity, so she has no reason to care about it), not welcome to Arvandor, etc... she wants the drow to flourish once again, and the elves to open their eyes too, not the drow to give up what they were born as as a step towards change (besides, logically, if a race change had been a step towards her goal, she'd have developed this spell since the very beginning, dedicate resources to perfect it, and then offer it to all converts, who would be free to take it or not. Instead she did nothing, absolutely nothing about that over millennia, and nothing has ever been said about it in more than 20 years of her being in the Realms). That's because there are some things to be said about the drow curse.

1)As I've already pointed out, Eilistraee might have not be born as drow, but drow is how the vast majority of her followers originally look now. It's been 10k years since the curse, the drow see themselves as drow, it's part of their identity, it's part of who they are, that's how they originally look like, and definitely not only a mark of shame. How could Eilistraee, who is so strong on choice and acceptance, even think about forcing the drow to give up on all that just to be accepted, or even suggesting that. She needs to provide them unconditional love just for who they are, with no caveats--something that they have always been denied--in order for them to understand and embrace that different existence that I was talking about. Eilistraee chose to be one of them to provide them this kind of empathy that wouldn't be possible otherwise, but she needs the acceptance of the elves and other races to prove to the drow that what Lolth made them believe about life is false. That can't be achieved by asking the drow to "redeem from their drowness" as a step towards having a place in the world.

2)The curse was unjust. When Corellon cast the curse, all the dark elves were turned into drow. However, a lot of them were innocents. Not only the followers of Eilistraee who survived the Crown Wars, but also a lot of the Ilythiiri. Really, do you expect that your next Ilythiiri farmer or commoner or kid was a demonic-magic wielding warlock? No, most of them didn't deserve waht they got, yet Corellon was merciless: instead of eradicating Lolth from that region, he gave all its people to her. So, the curse is not a mark of evil.

3)The drow can't go to Arvandor. So what? They are perfectly welcome to Eilistraee's realm and other afterlives. Why would they want to be welcome by a people and a pantheon that think that their choices in life don't matter unless they change their skin? Because that's what seeing the change of race even as a mere part of the process of redemption implies.Tto be forced to give up the bodies they were born with, what they were, and the reason for that was that Corellon and the elves wouldn't accept them unless they renounced to their identity as drow. Basically, it showed them that their choice in life didn't matter, to be accepted they had to give up part of their identity, and that's exactly the opposite of Eilistraee, especially when her idea of redeption is based on free choice, backed from understanding.

In addition to that, Eilistraee has so much stuff devoted to *this* specific goal of offering the drow another path while building acceptance for them in the surface world and showing the creative potential of her people. All her focus on art, hope, sisterhood/berotherhood, and the beauty of life are the tools for both goals. Her followers even have a series of missions and rituals in which all non drow dress as drow, and travel alongside the Eilistraeean drow to various elven and human communities, to build friendships and help those in need, just for the above-mentioned purpose.

In short, so much of her lore depicts Eilistraee as having a very positive attitude towards the concept of the drow. She wasn't born as such, but she embraced it and believes that it isn't right to ask the drow to change what they are, she only wants to help them choose a different life. Nothing, and I mean nothing, even mentions the change of race (nothing in 20+ years of lore, or in 10k+ years in-universe, as I explained), OTOH the material refers to Eilistraee forging her own path and working to create harmony between the drow and other races (and among all races in general), and to establish the *drow* as rightful nonevil inhabitants of Faerun.

You can't take such a character and then say that changing the skin color of a few drow is of any priority to her. Too many things, too many of her choices and actions (or lack thereof, for extremely long periods of time) just don't add up for that to be part of her plan. Smedman (who didn't even create Eilistraee) is the one and only author that mentions the change of race as something even remotely related to Eilistraee, and that's even just all of sudden, all in the last book of her trilogy. In the scale of time, considering how long Eilistraee has been a drow goddess, it's almost as if Eilistraee woke up one day and said "I'm gonna make all my followers brown skinned". The disconnect between Smedman's work and the character is evident, and it was merely due to WotC wanting to get rid of the good drow for 4e, so they "undrowified" them.

That said, I agree that Eilistraee would acconsent to provide a choice to the drow, because she's all for granting choices, but 1)that's absoultely not what was shown in the novel, what we see in the novel is a violence, and very unlike Eilistraee 2)such a transformation wouldn't be a priority 3)such a transformation should be something that the drow have all the time in the world to think about, without any pressure or timer ticking for them. Then, who knows. Perhaps Eilistraee altered the ritual to offer a choice, and that's why only so few of her followers were transformed.

I do recognize that LP was done to "clean up" the drow pantheon. But I never knew it was about "highlighting Driz'zt". I saw it as a part of the overall goal of reducing the RIDICULOUS number of deities FR had. I really LIKED that 4e went away from deities being solely racial. In core 4e, Corellon is worshipped by many elves and eladrin, but he is the god of music, creativity, and summer for ALL races. Moradin is the god of creation for ALL races, although dwarves feel special kinship with him, Bahamut is the god of protection and guardianship for everyone, and so on. I saw the LP trilogy as cleaning up the overstuffed pantheon to make way for THAT design goal of deities. Interesting to see the devs admit that it was all about Driz'zt. Gross.

Even if it was to clean up the pantheon, it would still be gross to me, because it would mean removing very interesting characters and cultures, alongside all that makes the Realmsian drow unique and different from their GH counterpart, in the name of simplicity. Besides, the way the story of Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, and Araushnee is so deeply tied to that of the drow makes them even more interesting. What's the merit in removing that? It also makes sense for some gods to be sepcific to certain races. For example, the elven perception of beauty is different from the drow one and from the dwarven one (having them as aspects wouldn't work either, because--say--the elves already had their gods when they came to Toril, and they predate most human gods). Btw, that's also very close to RL religion, where there are so many deities being worshiped and so many faiths, I don't see anything ridiculous with local or lesser powers, tbh.

In any case, discussing these behind the scenes is kinda moot now that Eilistraee, Vhaeraun&Co are back to life. It'd only be cool if we got a novel focused on that, rather than just tidbits of lore.

[djreynolds]

Hey! So with the release of Xanathar's guide, and reading up more on the Dark Maiden, I've been thinking of a Drow Sword Dancer character that goes around and does his best to spread the good word and help the helpless. No he isn't going to be a whiny emo bitch or a Drizzt clone, it doesn't fit with the character. With that said, I am having a hard time coming up with a build that fits with the theme! Going by AL rules, I'm limited to PHB+1, so no College of Swords/Bladesinger combo sadly. With that said though, I'm open to other alternatives though! So... any awesome ideas?

Is this a dex based class with elven accuracy? Standard array?

Are you using a greatsword? Elistraee was seen before with a bastard sword in previous editions.

I think a dex based champion with arcana cleric could be sweet

[Naanomi]

Removing Lolth’s name from everyone in the plane’s mind would shut her out of Faerun for a moment, but she has way too many worshipers on way too many worlds for it to kill her, or even inconvenience her on a planar scale

[Irennan]

Removing Lolth’s name from everyone in the plane’s mind would shut her out of Faerun for a moment, but she has way too many worshipers on way too many worlds for it to kill her, or even inconvenience her on a planar scale

She would be forced to withdraw to those worlds. It would also deprive her of countless followers, severely weakening her, even making her subject to a direct attack. It would also give the drow of Faerun the possibility to break free, removing the pressure and abuse that weighs upon them, allowing Eilistraee and Vhaeraun much greater chances of success. Not only that, but once they manage to spread new ideas, to break the censorship and change how the drow perceive things--which is an essentiall part of their goal--they would make Lolth a non-factor on Toril. Remember that Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's strength resides in the natural desire that so many drow have for a better life, not a match of power (Lolth is clearly far ahead of them in that regard).

[Spiderguy24]

Is this a dex based class with elven accuracy? Standard array?

Are you using a greatsword? Elistraee was seen before with a bastard sword in previous editions.

I think a dex based champion with arcana cleric could be sweet

I haven't considered using Elven Accuracy, but after reading what it does I'm heavily considering it. I'm at a toss up on Standard Array or Point Buy, whichever one works the best.

I have not planned to use a great sword as a dex based character, mainly because you need Strength to use it and not dex. I think Eilistraee still uses the bastard sword, but she is a goddess so she can get away with bending the rules.

While a dex based champion fighter/arcana cleric would be an interesting combo, it wouldn't fit with the Dark Maiden's domains. Aside from the homebrewed Sword Dancer domain, her other domains are light and nature. A rapier would be the best sword based weapon considering that it has the finesse feature, which is a better choice for a dex based character.

[Naanomi]

She would be inconvenienced, and definetly be at risk of losing a lot of power on Faerun... but she has countless worlds under her thrall, entire Prime worlds pulled into her demon-web pits who worship no one but her. Her overall power doesn’t even falter for a moment for losing one measly world for a minute, let alone enough to endanger her personally. Faerun Drow would herald it as a monumental change, the Outer Planes would barely recognize it occured

Something like this wouldn’t make a god as powerful as Lolth vulnerable on the planar scale, no risk at all of becoming a corpse on the astral

[Irennan]

She would be inconvenienced, and definetly be at risk of losing a lot of power on Faerun... but she has countless worlds under her thrall, entire Prime worlds pulled into her demon-web pits who worship no one but her. Her overall power doesn’t even falter for a moment for losing one measly world for a minute, let alone enough to endanger her personally. Faerun Drow would herald it as a monumental change, the Outer Planes would barely recognize it occured

Something like this wouldn’t make a god as powerful as Lolth vulnerable on the planar scale, no risk at all of becoming a corpse on the astral

Eilistraee and Vhaeraun fight in Faerun, they aim to free Faerun's drow, I don't know if they are even aware of the presence of drow in other spheres. Using the ritual on Lolth would be the most logical choice even for a toddler, given that goal, let alone beings with a superhuman intelligence. Yet, the suits had already decided what the 4e FR drow had to look like, so logic or respect for the characters didn't matter. 5e wasn't much better in that regard, but at least we now have those two again.

[djreynolds]

I haven't considered using Elven Accuracy, but after reading what it does I'm heavily considering it. I'm at a toss up on Standard Array or Point Buy, whichever one works the best.

I have not planned to use a great sword as a dex based character, mainly because you need Strength to use it and not dex. I think Eilistraee still uses the bastard sword, but she is a goddess so she can get away with bending the rules.

While a dex based champion fighter/arcana cleric would be an interesting combo, it wouldn't fit with the Dark Maiden's domains. Aside from the homebrewed Sword Dancer domain, her other domains are light and nature. A rapier would be the best sword based weapon considering that it has the finesse feature, which is a better choice for a dex based character.

There we go, so you are looking at the light or nature domain. Which is consistent, you will need cleric with this build.

The champion is a very good class as dip for the cleric. IMO I might favor nature only because it comes with divine strike. Coupled with eleven accuracy and the champion's improved critical of 19, I might go TWF style or single scimitar also gives a cool dancer vibe. 17 cleric/ 3 champion. Or 11 champion/9 cleric depending how want to fight in combat

If you go light cleric, you are more of a blaster type. But this "feels" right for the character.

You can always grab magic initiate for booming blade

But really the question is, how does this drow fight? How do envision it? One big swipe? Many swipes? This is key and will help you whittle down choices.

Eldritch Knight also works.

[Spiderguy24]

There we go, so you are looking at the light or nature domain. Which is consistent, you will need cleric with this build.

The champion is a very good class as dip for the cleric. IMO I might favor nature only because it comes with divine strike. Coupled with eleven accuracy and the champion's improved critical of 19, I might go TWF style or single scimitar also gives a cool dancer vibe. 17 cleric/ 3 champion. Or 11 champion/9 cleric depending how want to fight in combat

If you go light cleric, you are more of a blaster type. But this "feels" right for the character.

You can always grab magic initiate for booming blade

But really the question is, how does this drow fight? How do envision it? One big swipe? Many swipes? This is key and will help you whittle down choices.

Eldritch Knight also works.

I want to try and avoid scimitars as much as humanly possible for my Drow... mainly due to the popularity of a certain character. I envision him using many quick swipes and thrusts instead of one large one. When he fights, he tries to end it as quickly as possible to prevent others from getting hurt in the process. With that said, what's your opinion on Battle Master/Cleric?

[djreynolds]

I want to try and avoid scimitars as much as humanly possible for my Drow... mainly due to the popularity of a certain character. I envision him using many quick swipes and thrusts instead of one large one. When he fights, he tries to end it as quickly as possible to prevent others from getting hurt in the process. With that said, what's your opinion on Battle Master/Cleric?

I like battlemaster because they can be added post hit.

The issue you face is a clerics 8th level ability, divine strike.... do you care or want it?

The other issue is finding away to beef up your many attacks of the fighter

But channel divinity and maneuvers recharge on short rests, so it shouldn't be a problem there.

I would make this build Fighter 1, then cleric to 5th level for spirit guardians, this is a great spell especially coupled with booming blade.

Half-drow is an option as well, as you can pick and choose what you grab from your parents.

I could see 11 fighter/ at least 5 cleric

rapier and shield is fine

[Spiderguy24]

I like battlemaster because they can be added post hit.

The issue you face is a clerics 8th level ability, divine strike.... do you care or want it?

The other issue is finding away to beef up your many attacks of the fighter

But channel divinity and maneuvers recharge on short rests, so it shouldn't be a problem there.

I would make this build Fighter 1, then cleric to 5th level for spirit guardians, this is a great spell especially coupled with booming blade.

Half-drow is an option as well, as you can pick and choose what you grab from your parents.

I could see 11 fighter/ at least 5 cleric

rapier and shield is fine

Divine strike looks okay, especially if it's used against a monster with a weakness to one of the damage types. But it isn't a must get ability.

If I go with the Half-Drow, I won't be able to use Elven Accuracy from XGtE. AL's PHB+1 rule sadly prevents that, otherwise it would be interesting.

Aside from that, I'll keep this in mind when I make him. Just hard to pick between these good options. :D

[djreynolds]

Divine strike looks okay, especially if it's used against a monster with a weakness to one of the damage types. But it isn't a must get ability.

If I go with the Half-Drow, I won't be able to use Elven Accuracy from XGtE. AL's PHB+1 rule sadly prevents that, otherwise it would be interesting.

Aside from that, I'll keep this in mind when I make him. Just hard to pick between these good options. :D

The tough thing about multiclassing is waiting on "stuff" to make your build feel complete or at least special or what you envisioned.

You know a paladin could fill this for you. You get your magic, attacks, and perhaps this would fit the build.

Dex based single classed paladin is a very solid class. As long as you do not multiclass, you can leave strength at like 8 or 10.

Try using paladin as the chassis for this build. 13 in strength, charisma, and wisdom is easily achieved with point buy.

[Toofey]

Unironically, since you guys seem to be referring to something in the materials, Since when is Elistraee Lolth's daughter? In previous editions she was actually older than Lolth and was the elvin god of sword play before the Drow fell.

Clearly this changed at some point, but I'm pretty sure that even as far as 2e's "Deities and Demigods" handbook this was still the case.

edit: Also in previous editions Elistraee was most closely associated with the long sword, as a nod to the racial bonus to longsword elves got in early eds.

[Irennan]

Unironically, since you guys seem to be referring to something in the materials, Since when is Elistraee Lolth's daughter? In previous editions she was actually older than Lolth and was the elvin god of sword play before the Drow fell.

Clearly this changed at some point, but I'm pretty sure that even as far as 2e's "Deities and Demigods" handbook this was still the case.

Eilistraee has always been Lolth's daughter, since Ed Greenwood created her for his own Forgotten Realms, and since when TSR asked him to make her official (in 2e). To my understanding, she has always been a dark elven goddess of beauty, song, dance, hunt, and swordwork (the bastard sword has always been her favorite), even tho she only picked up moonlight far later, after the drow were cursed, according to Ed's idea of her (she did so because the night was the only time when new converts could move on the surface safely, and so her preferred time to appear to them).

Lolth is older than Eilistraee, however Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (twins) became known to the Torilian dark elves before Lolth, because Vhaeraun was exiled there, and Eilistraee chose to wander among the drow there after her mother's banishment. Lolth was instead sent to the Abyss, but a fortuitous event brought her attention to Toril. Thanks in no small part to the elves weakening Vhaeraun's influence in Ilythiir through the First Sundering, and--far later--thanks to the elves' extermination of most of Eilistraee's followers in Miyearitar (the Dark Disaster), which reduced her influence to nearly a non-factor, Lolth's plan successfully made her the most influential drow deity when the dark elves were cursed and exiled.

[MrStabby]

My goodness. Leave the thread for a day or two and enough walls of text appear to build a house of words from! Included the most stretched use of the phrase "in short" I have seen in some time.

In seriousness, I had never read a lot of this stuff and it is pretty interesting to me. I don't have a problem with different accounts of deities - familiar enough with things like the Greek Orphic tradition/Hessiod to happily have different versions of the same myth.

[Spiderguy24]

My goodness. Leave the thread for a day or two and enough walls of text appear to build a house of words from! Included the most stretched use of the phrase "in short" I have seen in some time.

In seriousness, I had never read a lot of this stuff and it is pretty interesting to me. I don't have a problem with different accounts of deities - familiar enough with things like the Greek Orphic tradition/Hessiod to happily have different versions of the same myth.

If you think that's something, feel free to check out the link I posted a while back on Eilistraee. It has info that's been posted on here, and more! Hopefully this becomes popular enough to spawn more diverse and interesting Drow characters, and less Drizzt clones.