Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack

[Icewalker]

Worth getting? I have Frostburn, and found it very fun. I haven't read through a lot of the fluff in it, (I should get around to that), but I do like the environmental hazards and the like. I just far prefer throwing this kind of thing at players instead of just straight monsters. Or, even better, both, (I find it is actually more fun if the enemies aren't adapted to the environment either).

Well, I'm now trying to decide whether or not to buy Sandstorm. I have a method of referencing any information in it, but it is awkward and slow, and if I actually want the information and inspiration available, I'd far prefer to buy it and leaf through it. I'm just trying to decide whether it is worth buying as a full book, instead of just keeping as a hard to get to reference.

Lastly, there is also Stormwrack. It is slightly different from the other two. I am particularly skeptical about buying Stormwrack, because, ironically, I am running a somewhat sea-based campaign world. My issues with the book are that I don't like the somewhat stupidly suddenly adapted races, like those aquatic humans. I made my own semi-aquatic humans, and they are awesome. Then, most importantly, I find that, IMO, the Stormwrack ship movement, combat, and cannon systems suck. I just hate them. And (although I need to get this confirmed) the book states that it takes a hugely low number of people to run any ships, which I know from research are generally crewed with hundreds of people to the point where you are wondering where they'd all find a place to sleep, let alone work. I need to find out whether it is actually possible to crew a ship at no penalty with only like 5 people, when it usually sails with a crew of 400. Seems to me like they made it for adventuring parties.

It may be possible for a very small group of people to keep a ship just running enough to travel from one place to another in safe weather, but I think any serious weather or combat and you'd need a pretty substantial crew to actually do anything.

Ok, I'm just babbling now. I tend to do that. The only reason I can see for getting Stormwrack is to get some measure of information out of it to meld with my system, ie fitting in the little things that translate down on the player level instead of the ship level, like how a listing ship messes with players. Also, environments like the thick kelp beds, sea creatures available, and possible inspiration through fluff.

[Innis Cabal]

Sandstorm is worth it imho...i use it alot and really love the book. The PrC's are amazing, simply...amazing. Stormwrack...i have it but if i had actually bought it i would have regreted it a good deal. Its not very hand for anything. I would just stick with home brew

[Seffbasilisk]

I have both, and prefer Sandstorm.

Also, as to the ship capacity? The 5-man skeleton crew may be able to sail the ship, but keep in mind, that that is ALL THAT THEY ARE DOING. Sailing. Every man on deck, all the time, hauling lines, manning the wheel, etc. They get attacked by pirates and the wizard stops tying off lines to throw a fireball? They lose advantage.

If you want to run with homebrew, run with homebrew. It'll make for a more unique campaign.

[Icewalker]

I can reference Stormwrack the same way as Sandstorm: awkwardly and occasionally. I'm hoping to get away with not buying it, but just fitting in a few pieces of their stuff into my ship system. Then actually using the occasional stat block (character in the campaign has an otter animal companion, etc).

PrCs? I looked at them in Frostburn, and there are some really awesome ones (mmm, Winterhaunt of Iborighu makes such a great evil cultist...) but I never actually got around to looking at the ones in Sandstorm when I was browsing it at the game store. I only glanced over the heat damage (I'm glad they added a 'burning' heat beyond anything really possible...I'm going to add my own cold version.).

Also, in my campaign, throwing a fireball wouldn't do anything. It'd actually fizzle the moment it reaches the enemy ship. This is my solution to the whole 'oh, did my 3rd level spell destroy your entire ship of 500 people in one round?' problem: a layer of special wood which gives ships spell resistance.

[Renegade Paladin]

Frostburn is pure cheddar. Of the three I much prefer Stormwrack. It's not something that comes up in the average campaign, but I've run a seafaring adventure arc using it and it worked brilliantly.

[Emperor Tippy]

Frostburn is pure cheddar. Of the three I much prefer Stormwrack. It's not something that comes up in the average campaign, but I've run a seafaring adventure arc using it and it worked brilliantly.

Well Frostburn isn't really pure cheese. A lot of it is quite nice. It just has a few stupid moments. Like a lot of other books. Admittedly its stupid moments were a bit more grand than most. But it doesn't hold a candle to Complete Champion, Or as I refer to it Complete Cheese.

[Icewalker]

What're some of the broken parts of Frostburn? If you discount elaborate schemes using all kinds of different stuff to make some kind of combo.

[Voyager_I]

Maximized Shivering Touch makes Dragons into fleshy statues with an easy touch attack.

Also, don't get so freaked out by the numbers. A fully operational Whaler runs with about two dozen crew, a Square-Rigged Freighter maybe a little more than half that, and half a dozen makes for a full-enough crew on a modestly-sized Schooner. Ships could carry hundreds of people, yes, but in general they tried to avoid paying extra wages wherever possible(Ship owners were amazingly tight-fisted, and there weren't much in the way of Labor Unions back then). Those numbers go up dramatically in combat vessels, when you expect to be maneuvering in effectively in battle with the cannons firing at full efficiency and plenty of Marines ready to repel boarders, and have enough men to continue with all of those functions even after the potentially horrendous losses in battle. There's a reason the insides of gun decks were painted red, after all (Hint: it wasn't because the Navy was worried about the decor).

I've been on a 126' Schooner, there's honestly not enough going on that a few people couldn't handle it. Block and Tackle with a few hundred extra feet of line is cheaper than mouths, after all.

[Belkarseviltwin]

Also, don't get so freaked out by the numbers. A fully operational Whaler runs with about two dozen crew, a Square-Rigged Freighter maybe a little more than half that, and half a dozen makes for a full-enough crew on a modestly-sized Schooner. Ships could carry hundreds of people, yes, but in general they tried to avoid paying extra wages wherever possible(Ship owners were amazingly tight-fisted, and there weren't much in the way of Labor Unions back then). Those numbers go up dramatically in combat vessels, when you expect to be maneuvering in effectively in battle with the cannons firing at full efficiency and plenty of Marines ready to repel boarders, and have enough men to continue with all of those functions even after the potentially horrendous losses in battle. There's a reason the insides of gun decks were painted red, after all (Hint: it wasn't because the Navy was worried about the decor).

I've been on a 126' Schooner, there's honestly not enough going on that a few people couldn't handle it. Block and Tackle with a few hundred extra feet of line is cheaper than mouths, after all.

Seconded. The vast majority of the crew of warships (the only ones crewed by "hundreds of people" were only needed to fight, not to sail. Merchant ships had much smaller crews- often less than 20, with the most I've seen being 40 on the tea clippers (which required a large crew as they carried more sail)

Also, not that the crew numbers in Stormwrack state "watch"- which is the minimum number of people on deck at any time to handle the ship. To get the actual crew numbers, you have to double or triple that (depending on the system of watches the ship has) to account for the crew who are asleep of off-duty at a given time rather than actually sailing the ship. You may then want to add a few more to account for those who are not part of a watch (the captain and cook never are, and the carpenter or sailmaker might not be).

If you have spellcasters on the crew, note that the standard (Royal Navy and merchant service) watch system does not allow anyone to ever sleep 8 hours at a stretch unless it is used with 3 watches.

[Laurellien]

Sandstorm is good for the wide variety of stuff piled in there, it is any bit as good as frostburn. Stormwrack is good, but the monsters are sea based and probably best for sea encounters, the rules for which provided in Stormwrack aren't particularly good. I would still get it for aquatic campaigns, just ignoring the aquatic races, and probably using 3rd party ship rules.

[CthulhuM]

I'll echo the "sandstorm good, stormwrack meh" sentiment.

As for the PRCs in sandstorm the real standouts are the ashworm dragoon (gain an awesome sandworm mount and abilities associated with riding it) and the walker in the waste (turn yourself into a dry lich over 10 levels).

[tyckspoon]

I'll echo the "sandstorm good, stormwrack meh" sentiment.

As for the PRCs in sandstorm the real standouts are the ashworm dragoon (gain an awesome sandworm mount and abilities associated with riding it) and the walker in the waste (turn yourself into a dry lich over 10 levels).

And that weird hippopotamus-focused one. It's really pretty meh, but.. Hippos! You're taking a prestige class to mechanically express your devotion to the god of hippopotamuses (mi, whatever)! It's awesomely silly.

[Illiterate Scribe]

And that weird hippopotamus-focused one. It's really pretty meh, but.. Hippos! You're taking a prestige class to mechanically express your devotion to the god of hippopotamuses (mi, whatever)! It's awesomely silly.

Turn hippopotamus!

That has got to be the most awesome turning ability ever.

And yes, I'd agree with the whole - Sandstorm good, Stormwrack bad chorus.

There's some nice stuff in the latter (I'd highlight the stormcaster as a personal favourite), but, to be honest, the former has dry liches, ashworm dragoons (the most blatant Dune ripoff ever), and a spell that extracts the water from someone's body, kills them, and turns it into a water elemental.

Win.

[Talya]

Stormwrack is indespensible in a naval campaign.

Sandstorm is useful, but I don't like using the dessication rules...unnecessary to add another level of complexity to 3.5.

I haven't had opportunity to use frostburn yet.

[Icewalker]

So for the bigger ships, they can be crewed with very few people, but to actually be able to do anything other than go from point A to point B they need very large crews? That sounds about right, reasonable, and fitting.

So, Sandstorm yes, Stormwrack perhaps, seems to be the chorus so far. Some people saying Stormwrack is very useful, some hate it. I need to get some information out of it, and I like the rules on the player level for ships, just not on the ship level, or how those two interact.

Mmmm...high level martial adept using tornado throw to knock invaders off his ship...

[SilentNight]

What're some of the broken parts of Frostburn? If you discount elaborate schemes using all kinds of different stuff to make some kind of combo.

The frostmage is overpowered though not particularly broken. My friend managed to break the primeval pretty easily. I too will reinforce "Sandstorm good" though I have not read stormwrack. I love almost everything about Sandstorm though. Particularly the PrCs (sand shaper has great flavor) like the Ashworm dragoon and the walker in waste. The spells were also dandy Body Blaze in particular. Tron anyone? Also the Marruspawn! I love Anubis so jackal headed critters were one of the main reasons I bought the book.

[Doomsy]

Out of the three, I like Stormwrack and Sandstorm the best. Stormwrack is really dependent on how much you like the sea, I think - an area that most of D&D pretty much ignores. Personally, I dug it a lot but think it's mostly dependent on how dedicated you are to running high seas stuff. If you plan to do it often, go for it. If you don't...yeah.

Frostburn is probably the one that I have a problem with conceptually, just because out of all three it's probably the one that is the most limited - you really can't move back and forth out of the arctic with most of the options and builds presented there. I also found their races to be the uh, least creative of out of all of the ones in the whole trilogy, but that's a personal opinion.

Also, is it just me or did anyone else feel they should have added a jungle book to the series too?

[Voyager_I]

So for the bigger ships, they can be crewed with very few people, but to actually be able to do anything other than go from point A to point B they need very large crews? That sounds about right, reasonable, and fitting.

More or less, yes. Keep in mind that if anything bad happens, they will just wake up the people who aren't on watch to help out. It sucks, yes, but being a sailor does suck.

Also, an amazing amount of the work done on a ship is cleaning and maintenance. Practically Everything needs to be cleaned, polished and scrubbed, every day, and that's not even counting periodic overhauls. Captains tended to pride themselves on keeping everything in perfect working order. This makes sense, because if something important break in the middle of the Pacific, very bad things are liable to happen. Also, now you know where the term "Ship Shape" comes from.

[mostlyharmful]

And that weird hippopotamus-focused one. It's really pretty meh, but.. Hippos! You're taking a prestige class to mechanically express your devotion to the god of hippopotamuses (mi, whatever)! It's awesomely silly.

Clearly you've never watched two bull hippos having a barny.. It's damn impressive to say the least. These are the scariest things in their environment, forget crocs, you can avoid them with no trouble at all, Lions are just preening pretty boys.. Hippos are big, scarey, violent, unpredictable, vindictive SoBs that wander around the landscape and overturn boats that run into them all the time. Ok the class itself is a little but the idea rocks.

[Icewalker]

I've already figured out one small minus fitting into my system for an undercrewed ship, just in terms of the sails and rigging (reduced maneuverability, although I may make it a more serious minus).

So...Sandstorm yes. I guess I'm going to be getting that on my birthday in about a month. Stormwrack...probably. I'm going to look into a little more, but I'm guessing that there is enough useful stuff in it for a very oceanic campaign world to be useful.

[Cuddly]

I have both, and prefer Sandstorm.

Also, as to the ship capacity? The 5-man skeleton crew may be able to sail the ship, but keep in mind, that that is ALL THAT THEY ARE DOING. Sailing. Every man on deck, all the time, hauling lines, manning the wheel, etc. They get attacked by pirates and the wizard stops tying off lines to throw a fireball? They lose advantage.

If you want to run with homebrew, run with homebrew. It'll make for a more unique campaign.

That's the advantage of skeleton crews. The dead don't tire.

[Thiel]

I like Stormwrack. I've only used it as a player so I can't say much about most of the rules, but the PrC's are great.

Maximized Shivering Touch makes Dragons into fleshy statues with an easy touch attack.

Also, don't get so freaked out by the numbers. A fully operational Whaler runs with about two dozen crew, a Square-Rigged Freighter maybe a little more than half that, and half a dozen makes for a full-enough crew on a modestly-sized Schooner. Ships could carry hundreds of people, yes, but in general they tried to avoid paying extra wages wherever possible(Ship owners were amazingly tight-fisted, and there weren't much in the way of Labor Unions back then). Those numbers go up dramatically in combat vessels, when you expect to be maneuvering in effectively in battle with the cannons firing at full efficiency and plenty of Marines ready to repel boarders, and have enough men to continue with all of those functions even after the potentially horrendous losses in battle. There's a reason the insides of gun decks were painted red, after all (Hint: it wasn't because the Navy was worried about the decor).

The reason is actually far more mundane than that. The cheapest waterproof paint at the time happened to be red and since, as you said, ship owners at the times was mightily tight-fisted, that was what they used.