Druids and Languages

[JellyPooga]

Being that Druids are supposed to be nature-boffs, would it be reasonable to allow one to take an 'animal language' (e.g. canine or avian, or even as specific as just wolf or hawk) as one of their bonus languages (or to learn using skill points)?

I know that the Speak with Animals spell is available from fairly early levels (if not level 1...I forget exactly), but I was looking to have a non-magical version that was better than Wild Empathy...or do you think that Wild Empathy is about the limit for sapient/non-sapient communication (barring magic, obviously)?

[kamikasei]

I would say no, because they're freaking animals, man. They don't have a language. That's the real magic of the spell - letting them talk to you. "Speaking an animal's language" is an application of Wild Empathy or Handle Animal.

[dungeon_munky]

I agree, animals have no language, although they can convey basic thoughts such as "Hungry!", "I'm scared!", and "Get offa my property!", and wild empathy handles things like that.

[Kesnit]

I would say no, because they're freaking animals, man. They don't have a language.

But animals do communicate with each other, even if it is on a very low level. That said, it is a low level, which is why the Speak with Animals spell exists.

Back to the OP, I would say you'd be wasting your language points. Body language and simple sounds can be handled via Handle Animal skill and more complex things through the spell. You also have to take into account the fact that human(oid) vocal cords cannot mimic all the sounds some animals make, meaning you could not speak their language "fluently."

[TheElfLord]

Can't gnomes understand the languages of burrowing animals naturally? That would provide a precedent for druids.

[JellyPooga]

kamikasei / dungeon_munky : yeah, I see your point (hence the thought about Wild Empathy being about the limit), I was just looking for opinions.

Kesnit : oh, I'm not fussed about 'wasting' points (any more than I would be spending them on any of the more obscure languages, like Ignan or Sylvan). On not having the right 'equipment' for speaking with animals; this character, I assume, would obviously have an "accent", just as a Human speaking Elven would probably have an accent...just a bit more so!

[kamikasei]

But animals do communicate with each other, even if it is on a very low level. That said, it is a low level, which is why the Speak with Animals spell exists.

You don't have to have a language to communicate. If you mean that you could conceivably learn an animal's "language" to be able to, say, interpret birdsong, or the howling of wolves signaling one another... no, I'd call that a use of either Survival or Knowledge (nature).

Can't gnomes understand the languages of burrowing animals naturally? That would provide a precedent for druids.

Sadly, no... gnomes have a racial spell-like ability that allows them to speak with animals, for burrowing mammals only, for one minute a day. In fact, given how the ability is worded, it might be interpreted as only letting you speak to one particular burrowing mammal per casting. It is possibly the suckiest racial ability ever.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

You don't have to have a language to communicate. If you mean that you could conceivably learn an animal's "language" to be able to, say, interpret birdsong, or the howling of wolves signaling one another... no, I'd call that a use of either Survival or Knowledge (nature).

Wild Empathy or Handle Animal would be more appropriate, as those actually deal with knowing how the animal communicates.

edit: oops! doublepost

Hint: There is a "Delete Post" option on the Edit screen useful for solving such situations.

[kamikasei]

Wild Empathy or Handle Animal would be more appropriate, as those actually deal with knowing how the animal communicates.

My thinking is that one would certainly use Wild Empathy or Handle Animal to impart some information or instruction to an animal in your presence, or learn something from it (eg, "from this beast's manner, someone has passed nearby not long ago"), but would use Survival or Knowledge (nature) to say something like "do you hear the sparrow's song? Rain is coming, they are calling in their young".

[JellyPooga]

Hint: There is a "Delete Post" option on the Edit screen useful for solving such situations.

Coo, so there is...I've never noticed that before...cheers for the heads up!

Anyhoo, on topic...I think I'll just stick with Wild Empathy/Handle Animal/Knowledge (Nature)...I'd kind of decided that they were about the limit anyway, but was just curious as to what other peeps thought about the idea of animal languages.

On that note (rather than start a new thread), aside from going straight Druid, what options are available for a Druid-esque character that focuses more on Extraordinary "nature" abilities and less on the Supernatural/Spell-Like "nature abilities (i.e. little to no focus on Spellcasting, Wild Shape and to a degree Animal Companion, more focus on Skills, Wild Empathy and abilities like Woodland Stride and such)? Or did I just describe the Ranger class ? Having said that, I was not looking for a combat-character as such (as the Ranger or, to a lesser degree, the Scout is)...more a "friend of the natural world who understands it's innermost secrets" style-of-thing. Any suggestions?

[Fhaolan]

While they are forms of communication, most animal 'language' will be exceedingly vague as they will only cover immediate animal interests, rather than abstract concepts. 'Food here' is about all you can expect out of a howl, for example, rather than 'One stag, two deer, and two fauns heading in a north-northwest vector from my position.' Or more important to an adventurer, 'I hid from non-food, and it left.' instead of 'ten minutes ago an ogre passed by carrying a sack of loot.'

Also, as you mention, you would need to be fairly specific. Wolf communication does not use the same signals as Jackal communication. Canine is just too large a category.

Of course, the entire handling of languages in D&D involves a lot of hand-waving to begin with. It assumes humans/elves/whatever have the equipment for speaking the same languages as Fire Elementals... That's just weird, in my opinion.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Also, does birdsong have a written form, and no-one's put two skill points into it to learn it?

:scribbles down campaign idea:

[_Puppetmaster_]

Sadly, no... gnomes have a racial spell-like ability that allows them to speak with animals, for burrowing mammals only, for one minute a day. In fact, given how the ability is worded, it might be interpreted as only letting you speak to one particular burrowing mammal per casting. It is possibly the suckiest racial ability ever.

Forest Gnomes can speak to forest creatures though.

Automatic Languages: Gnome, Elven, Sylvan, and a simple language that enables them to communicate on a very basic level with forest animals (this replaces the rock gnome’s speak with animals ability). Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Giant, Goblin, Orc. This trait replaces the rock gnome’s automatic and bonus languages.

[_Puppetmaster_]

Sadly, no... gnomes have a racial spell-like ability that allows them to speak with animals, for burrowing mammals only, for one minute a day. In fact, given how the ability is worded, it might be interpreted as only letting you speak to one particular burrowing mammal per casting. It is possibly the suckiest racial ability ever.

Forest Gnomes can speak to forest creatures though.

Automatic Languages: Gnome, Elven, Sylvan, and a simple language that enables them to communicate on a very basic level with forest animals (this replaces the rock gnome’s speak with animals ability). Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Giant, Goblin, Orc. This trait replaces the rock gnome’s automatic and bonus languages.

[Chronos]

Can't gnomes understand the languages of burrowing animals naturally? That would provide a precedent for druids.

In 2nd edition, gnomes could choose to take the language of burrowing animals as one of their languages known. In 3rd, though, they changed it to a 1/day spell-like ability. Which is really lame... They could have at least made it 2/day. I have this mental image of a gnome sending his pet ferret scouting. "OK, ferret, go watch the big ugly things" "OK, boss." <later> "Good job, ferret, what did you see?" "..."

As for the "proper equipment" bit, I just always figured that a lot of the language of burrowing animals was expressed in nose-wiggling, and that that was why only gnomes could learn it: None of the other races have big enough noses.

[zaei]

Druids can just Wildshape into whatever thing they want to communicate with.

Also, it's a freaking Druid. They don't need more perks! =]

[Baxbart]

...and "Get offa my property!", and wild empathy handles things like that.

For some reason my brain has associated this quote with a disgruntled mole...

[Devils_Advocate]

On that note (rather than start a new thread), aside from going straight Druid, what options are available for a Druid-esque character that focuses more on Extraordinary "nature" abilities and less on the Supernatural/Spell-Like "nature abilities (i.e. little to no focus on Spellcasting, Wild Shape and to a degree Animal Companion, more focus on Skills, Wild Empathy and abilities like Woodland Stride and such)? Or did I just describe the Ranger class ? Having said that, I was not looking for a combat-character as such (as the Ranger or, to a lesser degree, the Scout is)...more a "friend of the natural world who understands it's innermost secrets" style-of-thing. Any suggestions?

So, what, like, a Friend To All Living Things?

Pretty much every class there is is good at fighting in one way or another. Clearly, our protagonists live in a very violent world. "Non-combatant" is actually a very specific, unusual type of character in D&D.

... Actually, the Healer from the Miniatures Handbook gets Survival, Knowledge(Nature), and Handle Animal as class skills. And a unicorn companion. You could ask your DM if you could add the Druid's (Ex) abilities to the class. As I mentioned in another thread, if you get rid of its lametastic spell-like abilities (Actually, they're technically Supernatural abilities that duplicate spells. What the heck is up with that? Maybe they didn't have (Sp) abilities in 3.0.) and just make it a spontaneous caster, it actually becomes really good at the single thing that it specializes in doing.

If you're specifically looking for a non-combat and non-spellcasting character, I really can't think of anything to recommend besides the Exemplar PrC from Complete Adventurer. (Exemplar! For all your skill-maxing needs.)

Forest Gnomes can speak to forest creatures though.

And yet, from the Animal Type description:

An animal is a living, nonhuman creature, usually a vertebrate with no magical abilities and no innate capacity for language or culture.

Way to be consistent, WotC! ...Well, I guess that you could conceivably communicate with animals by using a language they don't actually know. Like, it's a language to the gnome, but for the animals it's just body movements and sounds that they produce intuitively without much conscious consideration. That sort of makes sense.

Anyway, you could easily have a forest gnome character whose personal quest for knowledge is to understand how all living creatures communicate with and relate to each other. I imagine him as highly active; the stereotypical hyper little gnome, very passionate about his research.

Call him Doctor Doalot.

[Chronos]

(Actually, they're technically Supernatural abilities that duplicate spells. What the heck is up with that? Maybe they didn't have (Sp) abilities in 3.0.)

They had spell-like abilities in 3.0, but they might not have had them in the Miniatures Handbook. The MH was intended to be able to stand alone, and somewhat simplified several rules.

Mechanically, a (Su) ability is better than a (Sp) ability which does the same thing, since that way, it can't be disrupted. But they may have thought that that was a finer distinction than they needed to make.

[Collin152]

So, what, like, a Friend To All Living Things?

Like what The Giant himself cooked up? http://www.giantitp.com/articles/3Cs...QQ62al3RP.html