Is 38 good enough AC to tank at level 15?

[Starbuck_II]

Hey, I've optimized my character for survival (it is a instinct for me, makes sense for characters in a dangerous world). Anyway, do you think 38 is enough AC to help tank? I want to help tank.

There is a 1/2 Celestial Fighter in party, but I feel he will be more like a barbarian (as he is not going in heavy armor): strong at hitting, but AC not very high.

Anyway, is my AC high enough? I thought I'd help after I get a round of buffing (displacement, mirror Image, Shield, etc).

[Xyk]

well, I picked the only CR15 monster in the monster manual and it has +14 to attack. You should be fine with 38 AC.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, let's take a look at attack bonuses of various monsters - let's look at CR 17 (the ones that will theoretically be giving the entire party a hard time), just for grins....

Aboleth Mage: +18, needs a nat-20 (5% chance of a hit, but he's a mage, so that doesn't matter)
Old Brass Dragon: +32, needs a 6 (75% chance of a hit)
Mature Adult Bronze Dragon: +31, needs a 7 (70% chance of a hit)
Marilith: +25, needs a 13 (40% chance of a hit)
Formian Queen: Doesn't use physical attacks.
Frost Giant Jarl (8th level Blackguard): +30, needs an 8 (65% chance of a hit)
Very Old White Dragon: +35, needs a 3 (90% chance of a hit).

I'm going to say "no", I think.

[The Glyphstone]

You'll definitely be hard to hit/hurt. However, unless you have plenty of levels in Knight and/or the Goad feat, you won't be very useful as a "tank", because D&D doesn't really support that sort of play...Knight and Goad are the only way to force monsters to attack you. Unless you're fighting something mindless or an animal, the monster you're "tanking" will likely give up after repeatedly failing to hit you and go after the squishy barbarian or casters in the group who can be hurt much more easily.

[Illiterate Scribe]

Hey, I've optimized my character for survival (it is a instinct for me, makes sense for characters in a dangerous world). Anyway, do you think 38 is enough AC to help tank? I want to help tank.

There is a 1/2 Celestial Fighter in party, but I feel he will be more like a barbarian (as he is not going in heavy armor): strong at hitting, but AC not very high.

Anyway, is my AC high enough? I thought I'd help after I get a round of buffing (displacement, mirror Image, Shield, etc).

At those sorts of levels, you'll need better saves/immunities more than armour class. Also, what's your touch AC?

[Jacob Orlove]

Well, let's take a look at attack bonuses of various monsters - let's look at CR 17 (the ones that will theoretically be giving the entire party a hard time), just for grins....

Aboleth Mage: +18, needs a nat-20 (5% chance of a hit, but he's a mage, so that doesn't matter)
Old Brass Dragon: +32, needs a 6 (75% chance of a hit)
Mature Adult Bronze Dragon: +31, needs a 7 (70% chance of a hit)
Marilith: +25, needs a 13 (40% chance of a hit)
Formian Queen: Doesn't use physical attacks.
Frost Giant Jarl (8th level Blackguard): +30, needs an 8 (65% chance of a hit)
Very Old White Dragon: +35, needs a 3 (90% chance of a hit).

I'm going to say "no", I think.

That's a little misleading. The advantage of a high AC against, say, those dragons, is that they can't Power Attack for +20 damage per hit against you (and with 6+ attacks a round, that's a huge advantage). You'll still get hit for significant damage, but you'll be saving the fellow party members from a much worse fate (assuming, as mentioned above, that you have some way of directing enemy attacks onto you).

That said, 38 is a little low. A good rule of thumb for high levels is that your AC should be more than 25+level if you want to be hard to hit.

[its_all_ogre]

i have never seen a character with AC +level in any of my games.

the dragon thing is totally misleading, a dragon needing 7+ to hit you IS good AC! every dragon of CR equal to level has always needed a 2+ to hit in my games!
however i feel the idea of tanking in dnd to be difficult unless you have a means to force an enemy to attack you, as stated above.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Tanking with AC is, without the "1's as -10's and 20's as 30's" variant rule, a bad idea, period. I'd also recommend that, if you want to create an AC monster, take levels of swordsage for Baffling defense. With that and the variant rule, you are plain unhittable.

[Hal]

So, this might be the inexperience talking, but how on earth do you get your AC that high?

I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30. If you added in Improved Combat Expertise you could get it up past there, but that doesn't sound likely. What am I missing?

[Townopolis]

On the subject of tanking, I would like to relate a piece of wisdom I have discovered recently...

Miss chance is better.

[Sornas]

So, this might be the inexperience talking, but how on earth do you get your AC that high?

I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30. If you added in Improved Combat Expertise you could get it up past there, but that doesn't sound likely. What am I missing?

Well, I'm not sure how you would go about doing that either, but I can tell you that Bracers of Armor and regular armor don't stack. ^^;

[Starbuck_II]

So, this might be the inexperience talking, but how on earth do you get your AC that high?

I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30. If you added in Improved Combat Expertise you could get it up past there, but that doesn't sound likely. What am I missing?

1/2 Dragon (4) +1 Improved Nat + 1 Actolyte of Skin + 3 NA amulet effect= +9 natural
+5 Mithral Chain Shirt= +9
10 Base
17 Dex (inherent 2 from acolyte, 2 gloves of Dex , +1 level)= 22 Dex (+6 dex mod)
+1 insight (ioun stone effect)
Ring of Protect +3 (deflection)
If I cast shield +4 shield bonus
=+38. FF 31. Touch 20.
Without shield: 38
With shield: 42

[Azerian Kelimon]

Easy. Wisdom to AC, a shield spell, high dex.

[Chronos]

I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30.

First of all, Bracers of Armor and regular armor don't stack (they both give an armor bonus), but a Ring of Protection will (deflection bonus). Second, you can get better armor than +10 AC, if it's magical: Plate mail +5 and a heavy shield +5 would be +20. Third, there's dexterity bonus to AC, and fourth, there are many ways of getting other ability modifiers added to AC (Wis for a monk, ninja, or swordsage, Int for a duelist or a few other classes, etc.). Finally, there's defending weapons (potentially another +5), and dodge bonuses of various sorts (the Dodge feat, fighting defensively, Combat Expertise, etc.).

[kamikasei]

So, this might be the inexperience talking, but how on earth do you get your AC that high?

I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30. If you added in Improved Combat Expertise you could get it up past there, but that doesn't sound likely. What am I missing?

A ring of protection comes to mind, as does full plate with dex 12 (+9 there) plus any enhancements on the armour, and a heavy shield (+2), again with enhancement. Can't be bothered crunching the WBL but you'd be looking at about +3s on most things, I think, so that's +11 armor +1 dodge +5 shield +3 deflection +3 natural... that's 33 AC without a CL-boosted magic vestment or any custom items granting bonuses of other types.

...damn ninjas shouldn't be able to sneak up on me so heavily armoured. Also, I completely forgot that you can mithral up your armour for an extra +2 dodge. Also forgot that the amulet of natural armor grants an enhancement bonus to your natural armor, not an actual natural armor bonus, so it can stack.

I think this is an interesting illustration of what sets optimizers apart, though. It seems perfectly obvious to just be a half-dragon if you want a good AC...

[Raolin_Fenix]

Best armor is mithral platemail. +8 bonus, +5 enhancement, +3 dex, +5 Ring of Protection, +5 Amulet of Natural Armor. Throw in a +5 tower shield if you have proficiency, that comes to something like 175,000 GP in value, or something. Also comes to 36 without a shield, 40 with a Shield spell, or 45 with a the tower shield.

So yes, 38 is okay for level 15, but at the same time, it could easily get better. For merely money, of course. I'm not sure what your build is, but these are just stats for a random fighter I just pulled out of my butt.

[Chrismith]

So, this might be the inexperience talking, but how on earth do you get your AC that high?

I'm imagining the strongest armor you can find (+10 AC), Bracers of Armor (+5), Amulet of Natural Armor (+5), and that still only gets you to 30. If you added in Improved Combat Expertise you could get it up past there, but that doesn't sound likely. What am I missing?

Full plate +5 (13 total)
Heavy Steel Shield +5 (7 total)
Ring of Protection +5
Amulet of Natural Armor +5

With just those four items, you're looking at 40 AC. That's about 3/4 of a level 15 character's WBL, but that's not unreasonable if you really want to max out your AC. And there are other ways to boost your AC, these are just the standard items.

Edit: Wow, an entire ninja army snuck in while I was looking up prices...

[Fiery Diamond]

Let's see...what's the highest AC for a human fighter (I'm using this so I'm not worrying about wisdom or size bonuses to AC and such) that I can come up with.

Automatic-10
Armor(+5)- +13
Amulet of Natural Armor- +5
Ring of Protection- +5
Tower Shield(+5)- +9
Dex Bonus(highest possible while using Tower Shield)- +1
--Maybe get Dodge bonuses from something--
Total - AC=43, with possibility of buffs if they provide dodge, insight, or unnamed bonuses.


-Fiery Diamond

Edit: super ninja'd

[Raolin_Fenix]

Let's see...what's the highest AC for a human fighter (I'm using this so I'm not worrying about wisdom or size bonuses to AC and such) that I can come up with.

Automatic-10
Armor(+5)- +13
Amulet of Natural Armor- +5
Ring of Protection- +5
Tower Shield(+5)- +9
Dex Bonus(highest possible while using Tower Shield)- +1
--Maybe get Dodge bonuses from something--
Total - AC=43, with possibility of buffs if they provide dodge, insight, or unnamed bonuses.


-Fiery Diamond

Edit: super ninja'd

Don't forget to mithral the shield, for another +2 max dex.

[Myatar_Panwar]

If you want to tank in D&D, either take 1 level in crusader (or just go crusader full, D10 HD + the ability to cast healing spells when hitting somebody, and that ability to block attacks on your allies= win) or take a couple of feats and get the crusader stance Iron Guards Glare. it makes it so that if you are adjacent to an enemy and that enemy attempts to attack someone else, they take a -4 on that attack, and they are aware of the effect. So unless you are fighting mindless zombies all of the time, this is very good.

Edit: Oh yeah, crusaders also have the ability to ignore damage temporarily, I think it would be 20dmg max at your level.

[Starbuck_II]

If you want to tank in D&D, either take 1 level in crusader (or just go crusader full, D10 HD + the ability to cast healing spells when hitting somebody, and that ability to block attacks on your allies= win) or take a couple of feats and get the crusader stance Iron Guards Glare. it makes it so that if you are adjacent to an enemy and that enemy attempts to attack someone else, they take a -4 on that attack, and they are aware of the effect. So unless you are fighting mindless zombies all of the time, this is very good.

Edit: Oh yeah, crusaders also have the ability to ignore damage temporarily, I think it would be 20dmg max at your level.

While I have the BoNS/ToB, I have yet to ask the DM to allow it.
I feel it would be too much of rule change (Fighters actually useful/fun and not one trick ponies!)
He still thinks Duskblades are overpowered. I fear he'll think worst of ToB.
Oh and he also has an irrational fear of psionics (they are banned too).

So I'm left with Complete 1.0 (warrior, arcane, divine, adventurer), Core, Item Compendruim (1/2 the book, not all), and 10 spells okay'd from Spell Compendruim (very little else, I finally at least got him to understand they are reprints not new spells). PHB 2 also.

I can't be Lawful so no Knight either.
Plus, it wouldn't fit my characer concept.

I'm currently a 1/2 Dragon Level 12 character (ECL 15)
7 Warlock/2 Acoltye of Skin/3 Wild Mage
And my character has been taught all his life he was the village guard (it was a good job at low levels) so he thinks he can fight.
But all his life it always took more to improve even a little. His friends learned new stuff all the time (leveled faster), but he has to work twice as hard to improve a tiny bit.
A little like Naruto (he probably has a level adjustent as well come to think of it).

I have 22 Str (8 from 1/2 Dragon, 2 from magic item) so I can reasonable fight.
Warlock gives DR 2/cold iron (who uses it? It costs more to enhance magic weapons)
So effectively, I have DR 2 usually.

I can fly (warriors need to fly at high levels), I can see invisible stuff, darkvision, dispel magic (not greater), curse people (Bestow curse), and can trap people in tentacles for battlefied control.

If I buy the ring of freedom of movement: Than I could concievably do battlefield control without being affected by the ability... hmmm (save up I guess).

[Hal]

Okay, I think it needs to be hashed out what will and won't stack as far as AC goes.

For example, I saw people throwing the Shield spell in there . . . does that stack with a shield? I thought it wouldn't.

[Starbuck_II]

Okay, I think it needs to be hashed out what will and won't stack as far as AC goes.

For example, I saw people throwing the Shield spell in there . . . does that stack with a shield? I thought it wouldn't.

Shield applies against Incorporal touch attacks...
Anyway, I have no shield so Shield spell is helpful. I currently use a Longspear. I have 10 scrolls of Shield at moment.

[kamikasei]

Okay, I think it needs to be hashed out what will and won't stack as far as AC goes.

For example, I saw people throwing the Shield spell in there . . . does that stack with a shield? I thought it wouldn't.

You can have an armor bonus, a shield bonus, a natural armor bonus, and enhancement bonuses on these. You can have multiple stacking dodge bonuses. You can have a deflection bonus, an insight bonus, and a size bonus; I don't think you can have enhancement bonuses on these. I'm not sure whether luck, sacred, etc. bonuses are available. Then you can have unnamed bonuses, such as a monk's Wis to AC, most of which will stack.

And as Starbuck points out, you could throw on a mage armor or shield which won't increase the total AC but will boost your protection against certain sort of attacks in the short term.

[mostlyharmful]

Tanking at high levels is almost completely divorced from AC for everything except no-account mooks, one of the many reasons the melee classes get boned at these levels. Saves, Immunities (Energy type, status condition, Ability Drain/Damage, Mind Affecting-effects, Death effects, Petrification/Polymorh/Transmutation, Criticals/Sneak, Grappling/Slowing, etc....), SR, MISS CHANCE, DAMAGE REDUCTION. All these are far, far more important than AC. This is why Undead and Elementals get such a CR boost at the high level monsters end, because they're immune to so damn much.

By high level CR appropriate opponents are liable to either hit or miss with a wide gulf inbetween, gone are the days of roll to hit, roll to damage, deduct from hp as the main source of PC death. Now it's saves and sucktastic conditions.

[Indon]

On the subject of tanking, I would like to relate a piece of wisdom I have discovered recently...

Miss chance is better.

Miss chance is good, but it doesn't prevent usage of Power Attack like higher AC does.

I would recommend getting a bit of miss chance, though. You could get miss chance or its' equivalent magically, or you can rely on more mundane sources such as cover/concealment (which can also be enhanced magically). Don't put too much stock in it, though.

[Pyroconstruct]

I'd be more concerned, as others have mentioned, about having a way to force enemies to pay attention to you. 38 AC is OK, but it's worthless if you're just going to be ignored by enemies. Unless you've got some sort of crazy trick hidden in your hat that I'm missing, you don't have a way to either stop people from just avoiding you (either by taking an AoO, or tumbling, etc) or ignoring you while they beat down your allies.

[Frosty]

The way to force enemies to pay attention to you is to do 200 damage a round with uber charging. If the DM rps the monsters out correctly, they'll definitely see the charger as a threat.

[Chronos]

Of course, tanking also depends on your terrain. If you're in a five-foot-wide dungeon corridor, all you have to do to block enemies is just stand there. And even if the hallway is wider, you can somewhat block off as much as you can reach, using attacks of opportunity, readied attacks, and trips and similar effects.

But if you're in a wide-open field, yeah, there's not much you can do to stop intelligent enemies from just going around you.

[nargbop]

I played a level 20 Dervish/Tempest optimized for AC last game, and got 33 just standing around. If she moved first (almost always did) she started applying feats and class features and got to 46 easy, and higher if she traded away BaB with Improved Combat Expertise.
I found in that game that AC is really not enough at high levels. Good saves are very important, and playing tactically VERY important.