Level Adjustments: More pain than necessary?

[Nonanonymous]

I'm currently working on a homebrew campaign setting, and I've got some character races in mind that might be over the scale of the PHB races, but I've heard from a few places that a LA generally is more trouble than the small bonuses that racial abilities confer. I've been considering dropping LA altogether, at least for races that don't go over 2 or 3, but I was wondering if this would create more, the same, or less balance issues than the LA system, or if there was a less crippling alternative.

[horseboy]

Aside from LA Buyoff? None officially I know of.

[sonofzeal]

Allowing LA Buyback is always a good first step. That more or less balances things out nicely. See, the problem is that most LA +1 races are distinctly superior to LA +0 races; whether or not that difference is worth a class level, you're still upping the power curve by allowing it.

[Xefas]

If you tell the players "Hey, I'll disregard up to +2 LA." then they'll probably all go out and pick +1 or +2 LA races; which is fine and balanced. If all the PCs have the same LA, then they might as well have no LA at all, since they're all advancing at the same rate anyway.

The problem comes in when 3 people want to play a human, and one wants to play a Feral Drow or some such.

[Holocron Coder]

If you're creating homebrew races that'll be stronger, I'd suggest just pumping up the default races for anyone that picks them.

For humans... Add like... +2 to any one score and a bonus to a save (or something).

If all the races, defaults and all, are pumped, then it's even

[EvilElitest]

4E is ditching the LA system for some sort of racial power/class thing. Personally i dislike it, but 4E didn't come up with the concept, and it is better than LA, so hey it is something to consider. Better than LA at least
from
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[RTGoodman]

For LA +1 to +3, I think buyoff is probably your best bet.

For others, maybe figure out some sort of compromise with Racial Hit Dice instead of LA? That way they at least get some HP and an errant HD-based spell doesn't kill them outright.

[Chronicled]

I've seen a nice PC creation option:

1) 1 LA bought off (LA buyoff otherwise not allowed)
2) 1 free feat
3) A number (variable) of crafting xp, most to be used before play

A variant of this might work out for you.

[Prometheus]

I like to give the players homebrew advantages for taking a LA. If they are behind, I offer exclusive feats classes spells abilities etc that take advantage of their racial progress. If for whatever reason they don't need the boost, don't fix what ain't broke.

[Tokiko Mima]

A system I've been trying to test involves not allowing races whose LA+RHD equals or exceeds the lowest ECL in the party, but otherwise ignoring LA (but not RHD.) That is to say, everyone in the party must be at least level 13 for a 6 RHD + 6LA race to be in play as a character race, but LA is not counted against the character for XP purposes, or for calculating total ECL.

LA only exists to encourage players not to play monster races, after all. If you prevent players from taking a powerful race at a low level, but allow them at higher levels when their power is less compared to PC classes, it's not as much of an issue. Being, for example, an Astra Deva is fun and long as everyone else in the party is level 21 or higher, it's not much of a power issue.

[Bleen]

What about the Savage Species-type level progression deal?

[Stycotl]

i can't stand most of the monster class level progressions. especially the ones that give you 3 hd over the course of 8 levels. pathetic. i have been contemplating just upping the hit dice to at least equal the classes, then adding a few more required racial class levels (that don't give special abilities, pretty much dead levels, though obviosuly still with hit dice, bab, saves, feats, and skills) until they balance as close as i can get them to, and then just fudging the la sustem from there.

example. 3 hitd dice race that has a +3 la, so normal 6 racial class levels overall: add two more class levels to make it an 8-level racial class, with two dead levels (that would ultimately depend on what the exact abilities were that were upping la in the first place), but with 8 hit dice, and 8 levels worth of bab, saves, skills, and feats, rather than 3.

advantage is getting rid of la. which is worth some of the hangups i'm considering.

disadvantages are adding more hit dice to characters of monster races before they can begin class levels.

but hey, no la.

i'll let you know how it goes if i ever get around to doing it.

[Aquillion]

Most LA+HD creatures aren't that bad on the level they could first enter the game, although ones whose power is just a lot of 1/day abilities might be kind of annoying. The real problem is that they start to get weak very, very fast, especially if you go into any class with abilities that have a power curve (like, say, any spellcaster.) At higher levels, you're left with a bunch of obsolete abilities from your race, and a bunch of crippled powers from your class... few high-LA races have abilities that can synergize with the class in a useful enough fashion to be worth taking.

In other words: In a game without much optimization, even high-LA creatures are fine -- as long as the game starts at their ECL and doesn't go for very many levels after that. But for an extended game, even one with no optimization at all, anyone playing a high-LA creature is probably going to get frustrated very quickly.

[Kizara]

I've seen a nice PC creation option:

1) 1 LA bought off (LA buyoff otherwise not allowed)
2) 1 free feat
3) A number (variable) of crafting xp, most to be used before play

A variant of this might work out for you.

What if the character isn't interested in crafting? (like, say, about 90% of all the characters I've seen)


On another note, here's a rough idea along the lines of others presented here:

Choose a class that best symbolizes the race (often the favored class) and give HD levels of that class, but without any special abilities.

For instance, a goliath would have an extra: d12 HD, 1 BAB, 4+Int skills.

This works signifigantly less well with a caster, but still: d4 HD, 1/2 BAB prog., 2+Int skills, +1 effective caster level. Note: this is not spell progression, they are simply counted as being higher for duration and such.

For monsters that already have a casting progression (such as a nymph), simply extend their druid casting equal to their HD. Honestly, an ECL 16 Nymph druid caster with nymph abilities but without wild shape or animal companion is MUCH less powerful then a normal druid, but probably alot more interesting.

[Chronicled]

What if the character isn't interested in crafting? (like, say, about 90% of all the characters I've seen)

...Then they'd pick option 1 or 2. If you wanted, you wouldn't have to make the xp from option 3 for crafting only, but that was how I saw it done.

[GammaPaladin]

I'd just boost the base races to the LA you find acceptable.

Increase stat bonuses for elves and dwarves and such, give humans additional bonus feats, etc.

Easiest way to balance things while opening up additional options for the players. Then just disallow any race with an LA higher than you've adjusted for.

[Indon]

What about the Savage Species-type level progression deal?

Those just abstract Level Adjustment into racial Hit Die progression - the result is that each 'level' is actually a bit worse than an actual racial hit die, which is already generally worse than pretty much any class level.

What you could do is offer racial hit dice instead of level adjustment, but mind this makes some templates and such _much_ more powerful - for instance, the Troll goes from 5 levels of Giant and 6 LA to 11 levels of Giant.

Plus, some few LA-imposing things really are worth the level adjustment. If I recall, Feral is a good example, as is Mineral Warrior. Both are worth their LA.

[Aquillion]

Plus, some few LA-imposing things really are worth the level adjustment. If I recall, Feral is a good example, as is Mineral Warrior. Both are worth their LA.

Well, those are templates. Templates with LA tend to have a bit more potential, since you're usually just paying for one or two specific abilities... with a race, you tend to get a whole host of abilities, many of which aren't going to be what you wanted.

[Indon]

Well, those are templates. Templates with LA tend to have a bit more potential, since you're usually just paying for one or two specific abilities... with a race, you tend to get a whole host of abilities, many of which aren't going to be what you wanted.

Well, the Thri-keen used to be worth +1 LA until a non-psionic version came out later.

And then there's the Pixie, which is awfully close to really being worth its' massive +4 LA.