Natural attack questions

[MammonAzrael]

I'm thinking of running a Feral VoP Raging Monk in a game and have some questions.

After the monk's unarmed attacks, would I get 2 claws attacks as secondary attacks?

Would the unarmed strikes use the monk damage table, and the claws the Feral damage table, or would there be some type of mingling?

The game is ECL 10, 38 PB, average HP. Do you see anything I wrote up wrong on the sheet? And yes, I know I'm missing the level feats, I'm not sure what to grab at this point.

Also any useful tips or suggestions are welcome. And no, "don't play monk" is not a useful suggestion.

Thanks!

[Tsotha-lanti]

Can't comment on the natural secondary attacks; it's a bit complicated and I haven't read the FAQ lately.

Definitely no mingling with damage, though - monk unarmed damage only applies to unarmed attacks, and the only variance there is with size.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Do not consult the FAQ. Or the Sage, or Custserv. The rulings are arbitrary, unbalancing, and usually wrong. Custserv is on record for answering the same question twice with 2 opposite incorrect answers. The Charop boards are more likely to be right than them.

[Keld Denar]

First, you make all of your monk unarmed attacks using your monk unarmed AB progression and monk unarmed damage. Then, you make all of your feral natural attacks at -5 (since they are ALL considered 2ndary to your iteratives). The Multiattack feat reduces this to -2, and Improved Multiattack further reduces this to -0.

So, a Feral Monk with a 6 BAB and Multiattack would make the following attacks.
Unarmed
+5/+5/+0 from Flurry of Blows (-1 at this point)
Feral
+3/+3 claws (net -3 from FoB and offhand)

as you advance the feral template, it would affect your attacks by giving you rend and whatnot. Those abilities only apply to attacks made with your claws, not on every attack in your full attack Flurry or otherwise.

Also, you can't have your hands full, so no monk weapons like Kamas or Sais while performing this attack routine.

[dman11235]

You would gain two claw attacks as 2ndary natural attacks, and they would deal claw damage. Why would they do US damage?

Now, the FAQ is generally right, and is "official", same deal with Sage (though less right), and then RotG articles, and then CustServ is right approximately 50% of the time (once when you ask the question they're right, and the other time they're wrong).

Also, try making tat sheet public so we can actually view it.

[Person_Man]

As part of a full attack action, you can use natural attacks at a -5 penalty in addition to your normal attack routine. (You can reduce this penalty with Mutliattack and Improved Multiattack, though IMO there's no reason to do so unless you have more then 3 natural attacks).

However, you should note that natural attacks are not on the list of special monk weapons. So you can't use natural attacks in conjunction with Flurry of Blows.

[dman11235]

That is true on the NW and flurry, but I do HR that NW can be used in addition to FoB (not in place of the attacks, but after your normal attacks). See if your DM agrees.

[Keld Denar]

That is true on the NW and flurry, but I do HR that NW can be used in addition to FoB (not in place of the attacks, but after your normal attacks). See if your DM agrees.

This is correct, similar to the way a monk with Flurry of Blows and Two Weapon Fighting can make full monk Flurry attacks and THEN take an offhand attack with the weapon, which is not required to be a special monk weapon. Whether or not a weapon is a monk special weapon is ONLY important when determining whether or not it can be subbed in as part of an attack in a Flurry.

So, like, a high level monk with 6 attacks in a flurry could attack with kicks and headbutts while holding a greatsword, then make an extra attack with the greatsword as a 2ndary attack using TWF, but could not attack with the greatsword as any of the 6 flurry attacks.

[Tsotha-lanti]

That is true on the NW and flurry, but I do HR that NW can be used in addition to FoB (not in place of the attacks, but after your normal attacks). See if your DM agrees.

That's how I see it, too. Flurry of Blows affects the unarmed attacks, nothing else. A TWFing fighter with a bite attack doesn't get a penalty to the bite attack, so I don't see why Flurry of Blows and natural attacks would affect each other.

[MammonAzrael]

Ok, it looks like it generally works like I thought it would. Though I'm planning on using the "Raging Monk" variant, with which you lose Flurry and Still Mind for Rage (and it's big brothers) as a barbarian.

Thanks everyone!

And the sheet is public now. I swear, I always forget to make them public!