1e/2e Nostalgia

[Mr. Friendly]

Something I have been really missing lately is Dark Sun. The brutality of it, the atmosphere... ah those were the days.

I have been kind of missing 1e and 2e AD&D lately. Don't get me wrong, I am never going back, but in a wistful sort of way I have been looking back at fond memories.

In retrospect, some of the things I hated about 1e/2e were things that now see as good things.

Seperate xp tables and bonus xp for example. Sure it made the bookeeping more annoying, but it also worked as a balancing factor.

I miss Wild Mages too. Sure, I might make my enemies beard grow 3" longer.
Or I might unleash some apocalypse. Who knows... roll the bones!

I think I also miss weapon speed. Again, more bookeeping, but it made marginally more sense.

Ah... the good old days... (which of course were never *all* that good, but seem better in retrospect)

So, anyone else been missing some elements from the past?

Oh.. and I miss Spelljammer too.

[Mauril Everleaf]

Miss the old days? I still play 1e. With lots of homebrew taking from 2e and a bit from 3.x and 4 (via SWSE), of course. I love my random experience tables and bonus XP. I love casting times vs weapon speeds. I like that there is only one kind of elf, and they only get a +1 to DEX and a -1 to CON. Yeah, our spell lists are a bit short and a lot of the spells are a bit useless, but we have never had to worry about the Mage making the Fighters useless, or the Cleric being the melee specialist. It is a bit of book keeping, yes, but it was actually much simpler. THAC0 and negative ACs just start to make sense after a while.

[hamishspence]

I did kind of like encumbrance measured in coins, at the time.

[Eldariel]

I miss them. In fact, I've just lately started trying to incorporate AD&D combat into 3.5. Takes a lot of work, but it's doable and I'm sure I'll love it way more. Also, I'm trying to convert the Exp-tables into 3.5 so that everyone levels at the same pace, but the actual gains from those levels come paced in accordance to when they'd gain levels in AD&D (effectively, higher curve classes gain class features later than in 3.X tables; this means that for example 9th level spells won't probably be available pre-Epic). Finally, I really want weapon speed and casting times back into the system.

We've thought of playing a real AD&D game again in near future, but if we can incorporate the things we liked about it into 3.X, that may not be necessary as god knows, there's a lot we really like in 3.X too (free multiclassing, open skill system, feat trees, etc.). I figured it may be necessary to fool around with the classes to make casters easier to multiclass with, but other than that, I really like much of the 3.X systems too. Really though, what I wanna play is a D&D compendium of sorts, taking the best of all worlds.

[Matthew]

I got nostalgic for AD&D in about 2000, after reading a bunch of Knights of the Dinner Table and having never played D20. After playing AD&D again, I tried D20 and thought it was, overall, pretty poor fair.

However, in about 2005, having come to the end of a fairly lengthy AD&D campaign, and wanting to use some 'pick up and play modules' (mainly the free adventures hosted on the Wizards of the Coast website, but also the Fighting Fantasy D20 conversions from Myriador, which I had decided to collect on a whim) without the work of converting them over to AD&D, I decided to give D20 a proper go.

I think I gave it a fair run, but I never really warmed up to it. It wasn't nostalgia that sent me back to AD&D (though, to be fair, I never really left), it was preference. That's what also had me buying into Castles & Crusades, OSRIC and Labyrinth Lord.

However, regardless of system, I do occasionally feel nostalgic for campaign settings, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, Mystara, Forgotten Realms, Birthright, Planescape, Al-Quadim, Mazteca, etc... I don't get to play in those settings nearly enough.

[Edit]
Actually, I'd be quite up for playing in an AD&D Eberron game...

[Charity]

Why isn't Matt here yet?

I miss the simplicity of 1e.
I miss being able to play from an armchair.
I miss epic slugfests at high levels.
I miss my stingy mate DM finally giving up a +1 sword bardiche/bohemian ear spoon or two.
I miss not really caring if the guy is 5' or 10' away, or indeed whether the squares are 5' or 10'.

I miss traveller/spacemaster/merp/blud'n'gruts/gurps/hunter etc...
I think I mostly miss having all that freetime.

[Matthew]

Hah, hah; beat ya, Charity! [Forum is being sloooww on my end]

[Xefas]

I have a lot of nostalgia for 2nd edition, though that's only because it was my first RPG system ever, and it allowed me to bond with the people who would become my best friends up until present day.

I didn't really especially like any of the mechanics, though. Or rather, I loved them at the time, having absolutely nothing to compare them with, but don't anymore now that I have other systems to stick up next to them.

That said, nothing will ever replace the system for me. If someone randomly asked me to play in a 2nd edition game, I'd say "Hell yes" just to remember the feelings I had back in the day.

Though, to this day, I still haven't figured out how you were suppose to balance encounters. Everything had an XP value, but I had no earthly idea what that meant in terms of "Use this many monsters to challenge the party without killing them". Of course, I was in Middle School at the time, so it doesn't exactly surprise me that I couldn't figure it out. Everything worked out fine just the same, though.

[clericwithnogod]

A piece of the concept art for 4e reminded me of a picture of a demon in the 1e DMG. I grabbed a so-unused-you-couldn't-tell-it-from-new 1e DMG that I picked up from a used bookstore for a few backs (it was closer to hand than my first copy) to look at the demon picture again and it opened with the same creak and had the same new smell as when I got my first copy new. It was like traveling back in time.

Looking through it, I noticed that I miss small black print on a white page with simple black-and-white drawings and cartoons. I also miss graph-paper maps.

But what I miss most is complexity being reveled in, not reviled.

[Keld Denar]

I remember my first attempts at optimization in 2nd ed. The suppliment book Combat and Tactics had all kinds of crazy rules in it, including master specialist paths for fighters to spend all those weapon proficencies on. Pulling the No-Dache out of the DMG, I created a weapon master that was throwing 1d100s against large + creatures for damage, since there were no real rules on increasing die size. 1d12 to 1d20 to 1d100 and POW, you were rolling the big dice. Ah, the days when weapons did different damage depending on who the hitee was, rather than the hitter.

I also remember playing a morningstar wielding fighter in a game using the crit tables in the back of Combat and Tactics. Morningstars were brutal because they rolled a d12 on that table, and 11-12 were pretty much autokills depending on what you hit. Hillarity ensued, until he took a bec-de-corbin from a bugbear through the ol' brain basket. What a grizzly mess.

[Charity]

Hah, hah; beat ya, Charity! [Forum is being sloooww on my end]

Damn it!

White text which though nessisary to fulfill the posting minimum, not at all so to fully express myself..

[kc0bbq]

Why isn't Matt here yet?

I miss the simplicity of 1e.
[/COLOR]

Yes, simplicity. Weapon speed, casting times, segments pushing actions into different rounds, AC being variably effective vs. each weapon individually requiring massive tables and insane bookkeeping, by the time UA rolled out there were dozens of flavors of each demihuman race, having to have both the MM and DMG open to deal with monsters, THAC0 being counterintuitive, retarded saving throw system, nonlinear stat increases, especially when a non-fighter somehow went from 18 to 19 strength...

If you made use of all the rules instead of disregarding them it was approaching MERPS in "roll" playing.

There are things I love about 1st ed., but it was overly and unnecessarily complex.

Simple and useful, that's D&D 2nd and 3rd, or whatever the edition scheme was from basic to immortal. Plus, magic users were even more OP when you could get 9 spells of each level. :)

[Skjaldbakka]

I've been missing the BECMI days since Gygax passed away. A bunch of guys from my gaming community got together and ran a game in his honor that Friday. It was a lot of fun.

Yes, simplicity. Weapon speed, casting times, segments pushing actions into different rounds, AC being variably effective vs. each weapon individually requiring massive tables and insane bookkeeping, by the time UA rolled out there were dozens of flavors of each demihuman race, having to have both the MM and DMG open to deal with monsters, THAC0 being counterintuitive, retarded saving throw system, nonlinear stat increases, especially when a non-fighter somehow went from 18 to 19 strength...

If you made use of all the rules instead of disregarding them it was approaching MERPS in "roll" playing.

There are things I love about 1st ed., but it was overly and unnecessarily complex.

Simple and useful, that's D&D 2nd and 3rd, or whatever the edition scheme was from basic to immortal. Plus, magic users were even more OP when you could get 9 spells of each level. :)

Couldn't have been that complicated. I was able to figure it out in 1st grade, for crying out loud. Of course, I may just be that awesome.

[fendrin]

I miss the speed of character creation: mere minutes.

I remember my first game [AD&D 2e], when I rolled up my character with the DM (whom I was also meeting for the first time).

I wanted to play a paladin but I had only rolled well enough to be a fighter or cleric.

So I asked if I could play a fighter/cleric. Oh, no, because my character was human. If I wanted to change to a Half-elf, Dwarf, or Gnome, I could though... [I ended up with a very martial minded human cleric]

Of course that character died in the first battle, in part because the DM didn't know how to balance encounters and in part because 80% of the party ran away after we (the soon to be dead 20%) had already entered combat.

Good times...

Then I got my hand on Skills & Powers and spent hours making a really, really overpowered elven specialty priest of a hunting deity... the CoDzilla concept predated 3.0 in my group... but we all had way overpowered characters. (like the guy playing the minotaur fighter... started at level 1 like the rest of us...) so it worked out.

[Reel On, Love]

Something I have been really missing lately is Dark Sun. The brutality of it, the atmosphere... ah those were the days.

www.athas.org

I have been kind of missing 1e and 2e AD&D lately. Don't get me wrong, I am never going back, but in a wistful sort of way I have been looking back at fond memories.

In retrospect, some of the things I hated about 1e/2e were things that now see as good things.

Seperate xp tables and bonus xp for example. Sure it made the bookeeping more annoying, but it also worked as a balancing factor.

No, it didn't. Fighters got to level 2 before wizards, even though level 1 and 2 wizards were a lot weaker than level 1 and 2 fighters. Bards levelled quickly, which made their spells extra-strong (the ones with level-based variables).

I had a 2e game recently. The system is not a good thing.

[Matthew]

I drew up a chart to show the distribution once, but it almost blinded Fax_Celestis, so look upon its glory at your own risk...

{table=head]Experience|Class|Level|Attacks|THAC0|Hit Dice|Saving Throws|Abilities

0

|

Thief

|

1

|

1

|

20

|

1D6

|13/14/12/16/15|Thief Skill Points 60, Back Stab x2

0

|

Cleric

|

1

|

1

|

20

|

1D8

|10/14/13/16/15|Spell Slots 1, Turn Undead 1

0

|

Fighter

|

1

|

1

|

20

|

1D10

|14/16/15/17/17|

0

|

Mage

|

1

|

1

|

20

|

1D4

|14/11/13/15/12|Spell Slots 1

1,250

|

Thief

|

2

|

1

|

20

|

2D6

|13/14/12/16/15|Thief Skill Points 90, Back Stab x2

1,500

|

Cleric

|

2

|

1

|

20

|

2D8

|10/14/13/16/15|Spell Slots 2, Turn Undead 2

2,000

|

Fighter

|

2

|

1

|

19

|

2D10

|14/16/15/17/17|

2,500

|

Mage

|

2

|

1

|

20

|

2D4

|14/11/13/15/12|Spell Slots 2

2,500

|

Thief

|

3

|

1

|

19

|

3D6

|13/14/12/16/15|Thief Skill Points 120, Back Stab x2

3,000

|

Cleric

|

3

|

1

|

19

|

3D8

|10/14/13/16/15|Spell Slots 2/1, Turn Undead 3

4,000

|

Fighter

|

3

|

1

|

18

|

3D10

|13/15/14/16/16|

5,000

|

Mage

|

3

|

1

|

20

|

3D4

|14/11/13/15/12|Spell Slots 2/1

5,000

|

Thief

|

4

|

1

|

19

|

4D6

|13/14/12/16/15|Thief Skill Points 150, Back Stab x2

6,000

|

Cleric

|

4

|

1

|

18

|

4D8

|9/13/12/15/14|Spell Slots 3/2, Turn Undead 4

8,000

|

Fighter

|

4

|

1

|

17

|

4D10

|13/15/14/16/16|

10,000

|

Mage

|

4

|

1

|

19

|

4D4

|14/11/13/15/12|Spell Slots 3/2

10,000

|

Thief

|

5

|

1

|

18

|

5D6

|12/12/11/15/13|Thief Skill Points 180, Back Stab x3

13,000

|

Cleric

|

5

|

1

|

18

|

5D8

|9/13/12/15/14|Spell Slots 3/3/1, Turn Undead 5

16,000

|

Fighter

|

5

|

1

|

16

|

5D10

|11/13/12/13/14|

20,000

|

Mage

|

5

|

1

|

19

|

5D4

|14/11/13/15/12|Spell Slots 4/2/1

20,000

|

Thief

|

6

|

1

|

18

|

6D6

|12/12/11/15/13|Thief Skill Points 210, Back Stab x3

27,500

|

Cleric

|

6

|

1

|

18

|

6D8

|9/13/12/15/14|Spell Slots 3/3/2, Turn Undead 6

32,000

|

Fighter

|

6

|

1

|

15

|

6D10

|11/13/12/13/14|

40,000

|

Mage

|

6

|

1

|

19

|

6D4

|13/9/11/13/10|Spell Slots 4/2/2

40,000

|

Thief

|

7

|

1

|

17

|

7D6

|12/12/11/15/13|Thief Skill Points 240, Back Stab x3

55,000

|

Cleric

|

7

|

1

|

16

|

7D8

|7/11/10/13/12|Spell Slots 3/3/2/1, Turn Undead 7

60,000

|

Mage

|

7

|

1

|

18

|

7D4

|13/9/11/13/10|Spell Slots 4/3/2/1

64,000

|

Fighter

|

7

|

3/2

|

14

|

7D10

|10/12/11/12/13|

70,000

|

Thief

|

8

|

1

|

17

|

8D6

|12/12/11/15/13|Thief Skill Points 270, Back Stab x3

90,000

|

Mage

|

8

|

1

|

18

|

8D4

|13/9/11/13/10|Spell Slots 4/3/3/2

110,000

|

Cleric

|

8

|

1

|

16

|

8D8

|7/11/10/13/12|Spell Slots 3/3/3/2, Turn Undead 8

110,000

|

Thief

|

9

|

1

|

16

|

9D6

|11/10/10/14/11|Thief Skill Points 300, Back Stab x4

125,000

|

Fighter

|

8

|

3/2

|

13

|

8D10

|11/13/12/13/14|

135,000

|

Mage

|

9

|

1

|

18

|

9D4

|13/9/11/13/10|Spell Slots 4/3/3/2/1

160,000

|

Thief

|

10

|

1

|

16

|

10D6

|11/10/10/14/11|Thief Skill Points 330, Back Stab x4

220,000

|

Thief

|

11

|

1

|

15

|

10D6+2

|11/10/10/14/11|Thief Skill Points 360, Back Stab x4

225,000

|

Cleric

|

9

|

1

|

16

|

9D8

|7/11/10/13/12|Spell Slots 4/4/3/2/1, Turn Undead 9

250,000

|

Fighter

|

9

|

3/2

|

12

|

9D10

|8/10/9/9/11|

250,000

|

Mage

|

10

|

1

|

17

|

10D4

|13/9/11/13/10|Spell Slots 4/4/3/2/2
[/table]

I can probably drop Bard in as well...

{table=head]Experience|Class|Level|Attacks|THAC0|Hit Dice|Saving Throws|Abilities

0

|

Bard

|

1

|

1

|

20

|

1D6

|13/14/12/16/15|Thief Skill Points 20, Spell Slots 0,

0

|

Mage

|

1

|

1

|

20

|

1D4

|14/11/13/15/12|Spell Slots 1

1,250

|

Bard

|

2

|

1

|

20

|

2D6

|13/14/12/16/15|Thief Skill Points 35, Spell Slots 1

2,500

|

Mage

|

2

|

1

|

20

|

2D4

|14/11/13/15/12|Spell Slots 2

2,500

|

Bard

|

3

|

1

|

19

|

3D6

|13/14/12/16/15|Thief Skill Points 50, Spell Slots 2

5,000

|

Mage

|

3

|

1

|

20

|

3D4

|14/11/13/15/12|Spell Slots 2/1

5,000

|

Bard

|

4

|

1

|

19

|

4D6

|13/14/12/16/15|Thief Skill Points 65, Spell Slots 2/1

10,000

|

Mage

|

4

|

1

|

19

|

4D4

|14/11/13/15/12|Spell Slots 3/2

10,000

|

Bard

|

5

|

1

|

18

|

5D6

|12/12/11/15/13|Thief Skill Points 80, Spell Slots 3/1

20,000

|

Mage

|

5

|

1

|

19

|

5D4

|14/11/13/15/12|Spell Slots 4/2/1

20,000

|

Bard

|

6

|

1

|

18

|

6D6

|12/12/11/15/13|Thief Skill Points 95, Spell Slots 3/2

40,000

|

Mage

|

6

|

1

|

19

|

6D4

|13/9/11/13/10|Spell Slots 4/2/2

40,000

|

Bard

|

7

|

1

|

17

|

7D6

|12/12/11/15/13|Thief Skill Points 110, Spell Slots 3/2/1

60,000

|

Mage

|

7

|

1

|

18

|

7D4

|13/9/11/13/10|Spell Slots 4/3/2/1

70,000

|

Bard

|

8

|

1

|

17

|

8D6

|12/12/11/15/13|Thief Skill Points 125, Spell Slots 3/2/2

90,000

|

Mage

|

8

|

1

|

18

|

8D4

|13/9/11/13/10|Spell Slots 4/3/3/2

110,000

|

Bard

|

9

|

1

|

16

|

9D6

|11/10/10/14/11|Thief Skill Points 140, Spell Slots 3/3/2

135,000

|

Mage

|

9

|

1

|

18

|

9D4

|13/9/11/13/10|Spell Slots 4/3/3/2/1

160,000

|

Bard

|

10

|

1

|

16

|

10D6

|11/10/10/14/11|Thief Skill Points 155, Spell Slots 3/3/2/1

220,000

|

Bard

|

11

|

1

|

15

|

10D6+2

|11/10/10/14/11|Thief Skill Points 170, Spell Slots 3/3/3/1

250,000

|

Mage

|

10

|

1

|

17

|

10D4

|13/9/11/13/10|Spell Slots 4/4/3/2/2
[/table]

It doesn't look particularly unbalanced to me. I guess it's slightly better to be a Bard at levels 4-5, but after that the Bard starts to really lag behind. I think at Levels 14 or 15+ the Bard breaks away again gaining five caster levels on the Mage at 220,000 Experience, but by that time the Wizard has access to Spell Level 7 and later 8 and 9, which the Bard never gets. Yeah, Bards are pretty good, but I think it would still be a fairly tough choice as to whether to play one over a Mage. Almost certainly tougher than choosing between Bard and Wizard or Sorcerer in D20.

[Charity]

Gaze upon my mighty tables and dispair.

A true homage to AD&D Matt.

[Matthew]

Heh, heh. Yeah, it looks pretty good. I couldn't include all the information, of course. Bards have some other fairly wishy washy abilities (apart from Legend Lore, which is great). Actually, 2e bards probably had the first 'per encounter' abilities.

The Mage also has a few nifty abilities at high levels, and can use Scrolls from the get go, unlike Bards who have to wait until 10th level and have a chance of misfire. Also, Wizards can use the widest variety of Wands, Rods and Staves (a few priestly ones are verbotten, as well as the Rod of Lordly Might).

[SimperingToad]

There once was a commercial for 1E way back when which uttered the catchphrase of the day, "Products of your imagination."

In many ways, the 1E experience was just that. Many did not have vast collections of minis, a good set of graph paper, a shelf full of rulebooks. A few extra dice, hand drawn maps, and three thin books. Characters could be put on one side of an index card (powers of magic items included), and could be made in 10-15 minutes. Discussions over house rules for perceived gaps or clarifications in the rules. The Role-playing era.

2E wasn't vastly different. Minis, graph paper are quite common. Rulebooks get larger, and in the case of the original Monstrous Compendium, updatable, but the basic three suited most tastes, though a good number use splatbooks (preference for setting books not included). Character generation not significantly longer, but they might spill on the back of the index card. Discussions for specialist wizards and priesthoods become common along with normal houserules. The Role/roll-playing era.

3E minis and graph paper almost required by fiat. Rulebooks are 3x the size of 1E. Character creation just by the three core books becomes an half-hour undertaking (not including time for optimization). Splatbooks are close to required material (again setting prefs not included). Character optimization requires more time than backstory. The role/Roll-playing era.

What has been gleaned of 4E - Minis and graph paper? What's that? Don't need them. I can see it all on the computer. Rulebooks are PDFs (of unknown actual pages). The hard covers are for wimps. Character creation predicted at an hour plus, as everyone preens over their Barbie-doll's choice of outfit and hair color, probably less for the actual number-crunching. Printouts of character sheets likely at least 3 full size pages (gotta have that color photo page). Add-ons will become an obsessive fix as everyone seeks to build their Malibu Dreamhouse. Discussions will range into the coolness of the spell effect or the funky threads. The Rule-playing era.

<sigh> When I care what a computer's imagination tells me what things look like and what happens, I'll become part of the Matrix. I don't need to polish every bit of furniture on my Malibu Dreamhouse. The basics are just fine. I can use my own imagination to work out the details if I need to.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some imagining to do.

Regards,
theToad

[Reel On, Love]

3E minis and graph paper almost required by fiat. Rulebooks are 3x the size of 1E. Character creation just by the three core books becomes an half-hour undertaking (not including time for optimization). Splatbooks are close to required material (again setting prefs not included). Character optimization requires more time than backstory. The role/Roll-playing era.

Eyeroll.
Not only is "rollplaying" an old and tired phrase that was witty once, the first time someone said it, but you could optimize and powergame in 2E just as much. Bladesingers, anyone? And people did. And other people sneered about how they weren't "REAL roleplayers", and how only 3d6 down the line was real roleplaying, and effective characters were badwrongfun. But people did it anyway. People ran high-level games, monty-haul games, kill-it-and-take-its-stuff games, just as much as with 3.x.

What has been gleaned of 4E - Minis and graph paper? What's that? Don't need them. I can see it all on the computer. Rulebooks are PDFs (of unknown actual pages). The hard covers are for wimps. Character creation predicted at an hour plus, as everyone preens over their Barbie-doll's choice of outfit and hair color, probably less for the actual number-crunching. Printouts of character sheets likely at least 3 full size pages (gotta have that color photo page). Add-ons will become an obsessive fix as everyone seeks to build their Malibu Dreamhouse. Discussions will range into the coolness of the spell effect or the funky threads. The Rule-playing era.

<sigh> When I care what a computer's imagination tells me what things look like and what happens, I'll become part of the Matrix. I don't need to polish every bit of furniture on my Malibu Dreamhouse. The basics are just fine. I can use my own imagination to work out the details if I need to.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some imagining to do.

Regards,
theToad

Uh-huh. Yeah, no more tabletop D&D. OH WAIT.

So, when we play 3E on play-by-posts like on this forum, that's fine and dandy. But when WotC wants to support that, in addition to the tabletop games, they're killing imagination?

Oh, and 4E character sheets are smaller than 3E.

Look, whereever you got the idea that D&D is Moving To The Computer, you heard wrong. Tabletop is going to be alive and well. People are already running Keep on the Shadowfell... and they're doing it with minis and graph paper. And imagination. And they're roleplaying while doing it.

How do people even come up with this stuff? Is frantic nostalgia for the awful game mechanics of 1/2e so strong it somehow twists "support for online gaming" into "zomg, tabletop r DED"?

[SimperingToad]

Mayhaps you missed words like 'almost', 'close to', and 'many'. Generalization, my friend. There were no absolutes. Nowhere did I accuse anyone of not being REAL Roleplayers. Nowhere did I say no one will use pen and paper. You're reading stuff that isn't there. Imagination run amok?

Maybe something a little simpler: If you have a car in front of you, are you imagining what it looks like, or are you provided with someone else's imagining? If the game is an imaginary construct, are you doing the imagining or is a set of rules/pictoral references doing that for you?

Can you put 4E characters on 1 side of an index card? Thought not.

I must be over the target to receive suck flak.

Regards,
theToad

[Reel On, Love]

Mayhaps you missed words like 'almost', 'close to', and 'many'. Generalization, my friend. There were no absolutes. Nowhere did I accuse anyone of not being REAL Roleplayers. Nowhere did I say no one will use pen and paper. You're reading stuff that isn't there. Imagination run amok?

Oh, right. Because you're hedging your bets, that changes your actual point. Right.
You didn't do nearly as much "almost"ing or "close to"ing as you think, either.

Are you really saying you weren't suggesting D&D is moving online? With statements like "rulebooks are PDFs" and "hardcovers are for wimps" and all the rest?

Maybe something a little simpler: If you have a car in front of you, are you imagining what it looks like, or are you provided with someone else's imagining? If the game is an imaginary construct, are you doing the imagining or is a set of rules/pictoral references doing that for you?

I'm not even going to bother with things like this.

I must be over the target to receive suck flak.

Regards,
theToad

No, you're just making the same tired arguments other people have made before, and extrapolating absolutely ridiculous things that have nothing to do with reality.

4E is not "rule-playing". 4E players do not have even a iota less imagination than you do. KTHXBAI.

ETA:

Can you put 4E characters on 1 side of an index card? Thought not.

Actually, you probably could. Stats, HP, defenses, AB, and the names of your powers, marked with symbols for At-Will, Encounter, and Per-Day. At higher levels you might have to write small, but so what? A tiny character sheet has nothing to do with how good or bad the system is.

I also don't see why that matters. Spirit of the Century characters take up both sides of an index card; I guess SotC players are automatically less imaginative than 1e players?

[Cainen]

I'm fond of how 2E handled itself when you paired it with Combat & Tactics and Skills & Powers. It was still a little unwieldy, but it's not like it would have been much worse than 3E if it wasn't trying to stick to its roots.

Now, the supplementals... well, let it be said that I don't think anything 3E has put out has been as good as the settings for 2E. Not even the 3E conversions of those. Especially not the Planescape or Dark Sun conversions.

[Reel On, Love]

Now, the supplementals... well, let it be said that I don't think anything 3E has put out has been as good as the settings for 2E. Not even the 3E conversions of those. Especially not the Planescape or Dark Sun conversions.

Dark Sun and Planescape are awesome... and, apparently, being brought back in 4E.

Eberron was some mighty fine stuff, too, though.

[Cainen]

Dark Sun and Planescape are awesome... and, apparently, being brought back in 4E.

No, you see. There's a difference. I know they're being brought back.

I don't think they have even a margin of the competence required to not bastardize either of them, and I'm not going to be surprised if they keep the Faction Wars as canon in the latter.

Eberron was some mighty fine stuff, too, though.

I have no love for the setting whatsoever. In fact, even comparing it with Spelljammer(my least favorite of the great 2E settings) makes me feel bad.

[Azerian Kelimon]

But weren't the faction wars the end, the last few supplements for Planescape? If they do it, they should be over, Sigil in tatters because of it.

[Cainen]

But weren't the faction wars the end, the last few supplements for Planescape? If they do it, they should be over, Sigil in tatters because of it.

Yes, and that's why the Faction Wars were awful. They ruined over one half of the point in even playing Planescape.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Not really. It opens the chance of seeing marvels like the Birthing alley, or the rise of new dabii. Personally, I think a reconstruction and, assuming 4th lives long enough, rebirth of sigil would be wonderful.

[LibraryOgre]

I find it interesting that we have a topic talking about "Gee, I really miss 1st/2nd edition", and someone decides they need to come in and start an argument... again.

For my part, one of the things I like most about 2nd edition is how easy it is to create a complete NPC. He's an X level Y of Z race. For wizards and bards, I have to pick spells. For thieves, I have to distribute points (if the default array in the DMG doesn't make sense). For fighters, I have to pick a weapon specialty. I don't have to worry about balancing his wealth, I don't have to worry about picking feats, I don't even have to worry that much about proficiencies; if he's got a weapon, assume he's proficient in it. If he needs a skill, assume he's proficient in it. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. Only BECMI is faster (since it's easier to figure attribute bonuses).

[SimperingToad]

Oh, right. Because you're hedging your bets, that changes your actual point. Right.
You didn't do nearly as much "almost"ing or "close to"ing as you think, either.

Are you really saying you weren't suggesting D&D is moving online? With statements like "rulebooks are PDFs" and "hardcovers are for wimps" and all the rest?


I'm not even going to bother with things like this.


No, you're just making the same tired arguments other people have made before, and extrapolating absolutely ridiculous things that have nothing to do with reality.

4E is not "rule-playing". 4E players do not have even a iota less imagination than you do. KTHXBAI.

ETA:
Actually, you probably could. Stats, HP, defenses, AB, and the names of your powers, marked with symbols for At-Will, Encounter, and Per-Day. At higher levels you might have to write small, but so what? A tiny character sheet has nothing to do with how good or bad the system is.

I also don't see why that matters. Spirit of the Century characters take up both sides of an index card; I guess SotC players are automatically less imaginative than 1e players?

Missing all points entirely, and presuming to know more of my intent than I do. Funny, I don't recall giving the access code to my mind. Also, look up the word sarcasm in a dictionary. I'll grant, it's not the easiest thing on a post-board to sense, but you should really try to understand before you type. Not everyone offering their OPINIONS is out to get you, you know.

There also used to be a thing called a discussion. Try it sometime. You may find people friendlier to you.

Regards,
theToad