Convincing people to Play Gestalt

[Fawsto]

Sup, Guys

I come here needing help on convincing my group of players to run a gestalt campaing, so I need to know all the good stuff about gestalt that there is to be.

Besides that, what you guys do to increase the monsters power to match the PCs in battle?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Usually, with gestalt, simply doubling the number of monsters in a campaign works well. The PCs have higher defences and more abilities/spells per day while the monsters will get more attacks and take more to kill.

[Oslecamo]

Be VERY carefull with it. It's very easy to end up with awfull class combinations on one side and uber combinations on the other side.

It can be very fun if done properly, since(hopefully) everybody can do lots of cool stuff by themselves and don't have to agonize between picking one class over another.

Sugestions:
1-High stat generation method. You'll need them to satisfy two classes.
2-NOBODY may take two fullcaster classes. You don't want to see druid/cleric.
3-No dual caster prestige classes. They're simply broken in gestalt.
4-Doubling the number of monsters is a good idea. Important NPCs should be made gestalt however.

[Sinfire Titan]

Be VERY carefull with it. It's very easy to end up with awfull class combinations on one side and uber combinations on the other side.

It can be very fun if done properly, since(hopefully) everybody can do lots of cool stuff by themselves and don't have to agonize between picking one class over another.

Sugestions:
1-High stat generation method. You'll need them to satisfy two classes.
2-NOBODY may take two fullcaster classes. You don't want to see druid/cleric.
3-No dual caster prestige classes. They're simply broken in gestalt.
4-Doubling the number of monsters is a good idea. Important NPCs should be made gestalt however.

Those parts are actually false. A literal CoDzilla is no more powerful than any other caster in the game due to Actions/Turn limitations. They are just more durable than Cleric/X or Druid/X due to having more spells/day.

And doubling the number of encounters or monsters will result in a TPK in Gestalt. HP does not change, and with the limit to double-caster characters that 2 imposes, healing will be much more limited at the lower levels (and higher ones). Gestalt characters are no more powerful than normal ones except in very extreeme circumstances (Incarnate/Any Full BaB class or one of the Big 6, Crusader/Totemist or Druid/Totemist, Binder/Warblade or something similar), and even then those can be defeated (Druid/Incarnate or Totemist is very difficult to beat though, as they can get obscene stats due to SAD).

Truthfully, Gestalt is more balanced than Core or any other variatn (E6 included) due to it being very easy to make a stronger character. Fighter/Wizard 20 is potent with very little optimization, simply focusing on your strengths will easily push you ahead of the party (self-buffing out the wazo or using Battlefield Control liberall is enough). The differences between characters is less noticable when you use Gestalt.

[Lord Tataraus]

Sup, Guys

I come here needing help on convincing my group of players to run a gestalt campaing, so I need to know all the good stuff about gestalt that there is to be.

Besides that, what you guys do to increase the monsters power to match the PCs in battle?

First reaction: Don't, stop trying to convince you're players to play something they are not interested in, it will always end badly. Gestalt is a tricky format to play in, those who dislike Gestalt, hate it (generalization of course). Also, look at the optimization style of your players, the higher it is, the more likely they will be open to playing gestalt and the more likely they will own everything you throw at them.

[JaxGaret]

Those parts are actually false. A literal CoDzilla is no more powerful than any other caster in the game due to Actions/Turn limitations. They are just more durable than Cleric/X or Druid/X due to having more spells/day.

It depends on the build, really. A Cleric20/Druid20 is still going to be more powerful than a Cleric20/Paladin20.

And doubling the number of encounters or monsters will result in a TPK in Gestalt.

Agreed. It's better just to raise the CR of enemies by a level or two until you get the balance right.

Truthfully, Gestalt is more balanced than Core or any other variatn (E6 included) due to it being very easy to make a stronger character.

I agree that gestalt is probably more balanced than core, but I think that E6 is still the most balanced 3e variation available.

[Akisa]

Divine metamagic persistent spell gimp on Str and Dex and have points to Wis and Con (and some cha).

[Blackfang108]

What is this E6 variant you mention?

[Sinfire Titan]

What is this E6 variant you mention?

E6 in a nutshell is you play the game normally, but only up until 6th level. You also get semi-infinite feats, but I have no clue about most of the major details of E6 due to never playing it (I prefer Gestalt and Bo9S/MoI/Completes to everything else).

It depends on the build, really. A Cleric20/Druid20 is still going to be more powerful than a Cleric20/Paladin20.



Agreed. It's better just to raise the CR of enemies by a level or two until you get the balance right.



I agree that gestalt is probably more balanced than core, but I think that E6 is still the most balanced 3e variation available.

True on the Cleric/Paladin, but that guy can still put up a fight with the right spells. E6 still has spell problems (Grease, Glitterdust, Alter Self, etc), which is one of Core's biggest problems.

Divine metamagic persistent spell gimp on Str and Dex and have points to Wis and Con (and some cha).

True, but that just makes them MAD instead of SAD (Con and Wis compared to Con, Wis, and Cha). DMM Clerics love having a high Cha, while Druids don't really need it at all.

[Draz74]

What is this E6 variant you mention?

E6 is one of my very favorite variants of D&D (especially with my own modifications, of course), developed on the ENWorld forums.

The basic idea is this: Level 6 is the highest normal level your characters can attain. After Level 6, your characters are "epic;" they continue to grow in power, but only by gaining additional feats. No more BAB, no more Hit Dice, no higher-level spells, no more class features (except for class features that you convert to homebrew feats), just more feats.

Gets rid of so many game balance problems. Even Wizards aren't particularly overpowered at levels 1-6. Druids with the Shapechange Variant are actually quite tame.

And suddenly there's no such thing as an "easy" battle vs. an Iron Golem anymore. Or a family of Manticores. These monsters of legend will remain a significant, exciting challenge throughout the game.

[JaxGaret]

I have no clue about most of the major details of E6 due to never playing it (I prefer Gestalt and Bo9S/MoI/Completes to everything else).

You could try E6 + Gestalt together. Link to E6 for those interested in it, I recommend everyone give it a try.

True on the Cleric/Paladin, but that guy can still put up a fight with the right spells. E6 still has spell problems (Grease, Glitterdust, Alter Self, etc), which is one of Core's biggest problems.

Gestalt doesn't fix that problem, though. E6 cuts off at level 6, which is the most balanced point in the game in terms of casters vs. non-casters.

[Fax Celestis]

E6 cuts off at level 6, which is the most balanced point in the game in terms of casters vs. non-casters.

Only according to some, mind you.

[Skjaldbakka]

I've actually run a campaign in which there were two gestalt characters, and managed to keep the balance almost perfect by paying close attention to the mechanics for handing out XP awards, and halving the xp the gestalt characters received. The gestalt characters averaged about 2/3 the level of the other party members, and neither fell behind nor outshone the other members of the party.

It had a very old-school multiclassing feel to it, which I liked.

In terms of a gestalt campaign, I am currently running one of those as I only have one player.

[Temp.]

In my experience, gestalt can be a horrible variant in a group with players who optimise to different levels. The potential power for a character drastically increases and the minimum ability doesn't really budge.

If the rest of the group is against playing with this system, just bag it. Even in small groups, the added versatility isn't really needed.

[EndlessWrath]

Sup, Guys

I come here needing help on convincing my group of players to run a gestalt campaing, so I need to know all the good stuff about gestalt that there is to be.

Besides that, what you guys do to increase the monsters power to match the PCs in battle?

Manipulation is a rare trick. and Mastery of this technique is even more rare. If done incorrectly it will end badly. I suggest that you should tell your friends straight up "hey I wanna play a Gestalt game. Here's how it works...". If your friends are still reluctant... I would try a different approach... 1 of 2.

1) PBP. There are tons of people who'd love to play a Gestalt PBP... and even better if you don't wanna run it...then just go to the place where they're trying to find players.

2)If you wanna actually run it live and with your friends... Then talk to them about starting a Canterbury tales style game. Idea is basically... You each get together and you have a "competition" of sorts. You each tell a "story". Each storyteller is DM. Each Story is a small adventure. All the people listening are the adventurers or "characters" in the story.

Pros:
1) Each game is short, DMs only gotta plan 1 dungeon.
2) You get to try a lot of new characters (even new systems or new ways of doing such)
3) Gives practice to noob DMs or beginners who wanna see if they'd like to run a game.
4)You get to try your Gestalt game.
Cons:
1) lots of character building and learning of systems... this takes time so you need....
2) Dedicated players. I wouldn't expect people to show up every meeting..but you at least need 1 DM and 3-4 players...
3) Some people aren't meant to be DMs. My brother is the perfect example... With his competitive nature to win and his Machiavelli personality plus the addition of pure control over reality... this will seriously mess people up.
4) This is equivalent to a campaign. if you don't have time for it... I wouldn't suggest it.
5) You only get to try your Gestalt game as you DM it... so the trick is DMing it well enough so that they enjoy it and want more.

[Oslecamo]

And doubling the number of encounters or monsters will result in a TPK in Gestalt. HP does not change, and with the limit to double-caster characters that 2 imposes, healing will be much more limited at the lower levels (and higher ones).

How will healing be more limited? I didn't stop anyone from taking cleric or druid on one of the sides. Crusaders make lovely healers at low levels. If anything, the party will have more healing, since everybody can play cleric on one side and still be completely diferent from the partner.

Plus, doubling the number of monsters only raises the CR by 2. Even a good nongestalt party will handle it. And hell, players must have something extra from the gestalt. What did they pick, commoner/warrior? Be it maneuvers, psionic powers, arcane spells, sneack attack, divine spells, spell like abilities or something else, they will either be able to kill monsters faster or have better buffs to survive or both.

HP does change. Now the wizard has d12 thanks to warblade. As well as a better fortitude save. Wizard/fighter can pick the alterante class feature to wear light armor and cast spells.

Also notice I said to give high scores to everyone, and they further help the player survive.

Gestalt characters are no more powerful than normal ones except in very extreeme circumstances (Incarnate/Any Full BaB class or one of the Big 6, Crusader/Totemist or Druid/Totemist, Binder/Warblade or something similar), and even then those can be defeated (Druid/Incarnate or Totemist is very difficult to beat though, as they can get obscene stats due to SAD).

Now THIS is a lie. Unless you're a really bad optimizer, the end result will definetely be stronger. Your total combination of saves, HP, BAB, skills and variety of tricks will always be better, unless you're a really bad optimizer and picked two classes that overlap in almost everything, like monk/ninja.

Yes they're still limited to a full random action per turn. But they now have more spells to quicken, more free action powers, more stacking bonuses, and the end result will be stronger.

Yes, they can be defeated, but hey, the characters aren't suposed to be invincible are they?

[Draz74]

unless you're a really bad optimizer and picked two classes that overlap in almost everything, like monk/ninja.

Um ... even then. Unless you're trying to claim that a Monk doesn't get more powerful when you add Sudden Strike to him, or a Ninja doesn't get more powerful when he gains good Fort/Will saves.

[Sinfire Titan]

And suddenly there's no such thing as an "easy" battle vs. an Iron Golem anymore. Or a family of Manticores. These monsters of legend will remain a significant, exciting challenge throughout the game.

Beg to differ, as two spells completely shuts down an Iron Golem for 3 rounds.

How will healing be more limited? I didn't stop anyone from taking cleric or druid on one of the sides. Crusaders make lovely healers at low levels. If anything, the party will have more healing, since everybody can play cleric on one side and still be completely diferent from the partner.

Plus, doubling the number of monsters only raises the CR by 2. Even a good nongestalt party will handle it. And hell, players must have something extra from the gestalt. What did they pick, commoner/warrior? Be it maneuvers, psionic powers, arcane spells, sneack attack, divine spells, spell like abilities or something else, they will either be able to kill monsters faster or have better buffs to survive or both.

HP does change. Now the wizard has d12 thanks to warblade. As well as a better fortitude save. Wizard/fighter can pick the alterante class feature to wear light armor and cast spells.

Also notice I said to give high scores to everyone, and they further help the player survive.

Healing will be limited because you are doubling the number of encounters they fight in, thus doubling the number of times the Fighter has to step up to the plate, thus doubling the amount of spells needed to heal him back up. While the Cleric and Druid both have a very limited amount of spells/day. And from personal experience: Crusaders can't keep up after 4th level due to enemies having higher damage output than they can heal. 2hp a hit isn't much compared to 2d8+7 or more.

And for the record, I misquoted your post. I meant to include the part about doubling the number of encounters and creatures in those encounters. That gets out of hand.

Now THIS is a lie. Unless you're a really bad optimizer, the end result will definetely be stronger. Your total combination of saves, HP, BAB, skills and variety of tricks will always be better, unless you're a really bad optimizer and picked two classes that overlap in almost everything, like monk/ninja.

Yes they're still limited to a full random action per turn. But they now have more spells to quicken, more free action powers, more stacking bonuses, and the end result will be stronger.

Yes, they can be defeated, but hey, the characters aren't suposed to be invincible are they?

1: I've had many optimized Cleric/Druids in my Gestalt games. They had no more actions/turn than the Warblade/Wizard. Guess what? The Wizard was the stronger of the lot due to his ability to utterly dominate encounters with 1 or 2 spells. Hell, Duskblade/Totemist was the party's tank, and even he had better uses for his Swift and Immediate actions than the Cleric/Druid. Most Cleric spells that get cast are buffs, very little in the ways of BFC. The Druid has a handful of them, true, but many of those can't be Quickened out easily.

2: CoDzilla is no more powerful in Gestalt than he is in normal DnD. He's just more durable. Most combats (even in Gestalt against Gestalted PC-classed enemies) last 3-5 rounds against optimized PCs. The CoDzilla Combo is going to get 6-10 spells off in those rounds, and find himself running out of steam very fast (DMM:Quicken is very Turning-intense). Without those abilities, he's going to be resorting to the normal way of Quickening spells, drastically reducing his abilities to contribute to the combat. He's better off forgoing DMM Quicken and focusing purely on DMM: Persist, and only casting spells to make the fight easier. This will turn out no more powerful than the standard DMM Cleric, he's just got more spells to Persist and more Turning needed to fuel those spells. Oh, and Wild+a cute pet. Druids could get that anyway, via dipping into one of many PrCs that grant Turning (or Cleric itself).

[Temp.]

1: I've had many optimized Cleric/Druids in my Gestalt games.
...
2: CoDzilla is no more powerful in Gestalt than he is in normal DnD.

Your total combination of saves, HP, BAB, skills and variety of tricks will always be better, unless you... picked two classes that overlap in almost everything...

I see no conflict between these statements.

[monty]

So you're saying druidzilla + DMM is no more powerful than regular druidzilla? I find that hard to believe.

[Sinfire Titan]

So you're saying druidzilla + DMM is no more powerful than regular druidzilla? I find that hard to believe.

Because that is standard for Druids going the Metamagic route (which is considered inferior to just plain-old Druid 20, as doing so slows your companion and denies you a use of Elemental Wild Shape).

[Skjaldbakka]

Plus, doubling the number of monsters only raises the CR by 2. Even a good nongestalt party will handle it.

You would do better to increase the CR by 2 in a more direct manner. That way you preserve the balance of actions.

[Fawsto]

Hmm...

Now, 1st part of the topic is complete. The truth is: I am already running a Gestalt campaing with my players. Now, lets see If I am doing something wrong here. My intention is to run it well enough that one of the other players will decide to run a gestalt 2 someday, so I will be playing it, since I loved the concept since I read about it a few years ago.

First and foremost, I am only allowing stuff from the Core, Completes, BoED, BoVD, Unearthed Arcana and PHBII. This means that I gave them a hell lot of classes to combine.

My group is running something like this:
Barbarian//Ninja (most original character I've ever seen o.O),

Ranger//Sorcerer (Dealing with MAD normaly and still competent),

Paladin//Favoured Soul (Nice sinergy),

Rogue//Wizard (Our beloved skillmonkey with 18 int) and a

Fighter//Monk (because this player is like me, he always plays the same class, meaning, Monk, the difference is that I love to run Pallys)

The campaing begun 2 weeks ago and I have not DMed again so far, so they are all level 1. All were created with 28 points. I wanted something like this: You are gestalt, but between the two classes, you favor one. Wich one?

The campaing begun when the city they were was raided by a band of Hobos. I admit, I was freaking evil when I put them in the shoes of level 1 combinations of DM character classes (commoner, aristocrat, etc) as an introduction to a campaing entitled "Touched by the Crimson King" (yes, that's right, Demons and Wizards song).

Among other stuff I've cut the Druid in 2. One druid is the one who becomes animals and the other one casts spells. You could choose to be a Druid with both features and no gestalt. I've come to this conclusion because in our last campaing the Druid wasn't even trying but was already dominating the battlefield.

Thanks for all the help so far.

-- Faws

[Sinfire Titan]

"Touched by the Crimson King" (yes, that's right, Demons and Wizards song

[Derail] That song isn't about a samurai, is it? If so, I suggest you read the manga "Samurai Deeper Kyo", as that entire song would be a giant reference to the basis of that series.[/Derail]

[Fawsto]

No, it is quite about some sort of evil demon or stuff like that... Not very easy to understand, lots of people can understand it in a huige variety of ways. Go youtube it, specially as the AMV for Hellsing. Quite good.

[Sinfire Titan]

No, it is quite about some sort of evil demon or stuff like that... Not very easy to understand, lots of people can understand it in a huige variety of ways. Go youtube it, specially as the AMV for Hellsing. Quite good.

Youtube+Dial Up=Nap-time.

I can't watch YouTube on this computer due to modem troubles. Could you link me the lyrics instead?

[monty]

Because that is standard for Druids going the Metamagic route (which is considered inferior to just plain-old Druid 20, as doing so slows your companion and denies you a use of Elemental Wild Shape).

But in gestalt, you lose nothing doing it.

Turn it around. Would you say a clericzilla with an animal companion and wild shape isn't better than a regular clericzilla?

[Fawsto]

Sure, I will do better, I hope it is alright to do this...

Crimson King, by Demons and Wizards (Iced Earth + Blind Guardian), Vocals by Hansi Kürsch, enjoy. (open the spoiler =P)

Spoiler

Show

Crimson King
Show me your banner
Come show me your sign
The Crimson King's eye
Is the mark to reveal you are mine
I am your master
I will make your dreams come true
I'm your messiah
A twisted one as you may know

My right hands, my servants
My soldiers, my tools
Spread out the good news
Find my children and gather them all
We'll take all low men
All the hatred, evil souls
We share one desire
A wicked one as you may know

Touched by the Crimson King
Touched By the Saviour
The tower falls on Judgement Day
Touched By the Crimson King
Touched By the Saviour
Like it’s been written many years ago

I am the angel I am madness
I am the word I am the law
I am holding truth release your sadness
I am the key I am the door
Release!
Oh there is
War and evil
Whores and sinners
Take my hand and I show you
Where to go
Call me Flagg
I’m the Good Man
I’m the Dark Man
Take my hand and
I show you where to go
Release!
Come take my hand
To the promised land

Redeemer
Deceiver
The demon
The man in black

The universe is void
Just you and I
Let there be light
The stars will rise
Then fall again
Climbing to the top
An empty room
Is all there is
Oh I fear it is
Prophecies were made of you and I
The vision’s strong
But meanwhile keep on falling
Oh what a miracle is life
An even bigger one is size
It’s just the way it is
I fear it is
It’s just the way it is

Life’s a wheel nothing more
It goes round and around and a…
I am the ageless
I am “Legion”
I’m your lord
I will bring terror
I’m a demon in disguise
The thrill of a thousand
Worlds dying at once
But my ultimate goal
Lies beyond the downfall

Touched by the Crimson King
Touched By the Saviour
The tower falls on Judgement Day
Touched By the Crimson King
Touched By the Saviour
Like it’s been written many years ago

[Sinfire Titan]

But in gestalt, you lose nothing doing it.

Turn it around. Would you say a clericzilla with an animal companion and wild shape isn't better than a regular clericzilla?

I'd say he's getting something out of the deal. But those abilities are pretty much it. THe Druid overlaps with most of the Cleric's basic stats, which is why the two are considered a bad choice in Gestalt. Only people aiming for something huge with those abilities are going to be the ones who use it.

Swordsage/Druid is considered better due to how many benefits the druid side gets (good Save, Maneuvers, Evasion, beter skills, Wis to AC in Light Armor).

Duskblade/Cleric is considered better due to Arcane Channeling+Harm alone. That's before they persist Righteous Might, BTW, so it's the tip of the ice berg.

The point is that they aren't using their actions or build as efficiently as they could to cover their weaknesses (however few there may be). THe overlap and action-dependency is horrible for a Cleric/Druid.

Its like going Crusader/Paladin. You don't get enough out of the deal to make it worth a thing. Or Hexblade/Knight. None of those are worth the character due to how poor of a choice it is to have that much overlap.

An unusual exception is Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16//Ranger 16/Scout 4 (note that's all one character, not two different examples). Done right, you can have the greatest TWFing Swift Hunter and Daring Outlaw there is while havign Full BAB and obscene Fort/Ref saves. You can even double-dip with Swift Ambusher, getting extra dice from your class overlaps. That's considered a vastly better use of the Gestalt system than Cleric/Druid (despite the fact that the character is inferior to a full-caster in general).

[Sinfire Titan]

Sure, I will do better, I hope it is alright to do this...

Crimson King, by Demons and Wizards (Iced Earth + Blind Guardian), Vocals by Hansi Kürsch, enjoy. (open the spoiler =P)

Spoiler

Show

Crimson King
Show me your banner
Come show me your sign
The Crimson King's eye
Is the mark to reveal you are mine
I am your master
I will make your dreams come true
I'm your messiah
A twisted one as you may know

My right hands, my servants
My soldiers, my tools
Spread out the good news
Find my children and gather them all
We'll take all low men
All the hatred, evil souls
We share one desire
A wicked one as you may know

Touched by the Crimson King
Touched By the Saviour
The tower falls on Judgement Day
Touched By the Crimson King
Touched By the Saviour
Like it’s been written many years ago

I am the angel I am madness
I am the word I am the law
I am holding truth release your sadness
I am the key I am the door
Release!
Oh there is
War and evil
Whores and sinners
Take my hand and I show you
Where to go
Call me Flagg
I’m the Good Man
I’m the Dark Man
Take my hand and
I show you where to go
Release!
Come take my hand
To the promised land

Redeemer
Deceiver
The demon
The man in black

The universe is void
Just you and I
Let there be light
The stars will rise
Then fall again
Climbing to the top
An empty room
Is all there is
Oh I fear it is
Prophecies were made of you and I
The vision’s strong
But meanwhile keep on falling
Oh what a miracle is life
An even bigger one is size
It’s just the way it is
I fear it is
It’s just the way it is

Life’s a wheel nothing more
It goes round and around and a…
I am the ageless
I am “Legion”
I’m your lord
I will bring terror
I’m a demon in disguise
The thrill of a thousand
Worlds dying at once
But my ultimate goal
Lies beyond the downfall

Touched by the Crimson King
Touched By the Saviour
The tower falls on Judgement Day
Touched By the Crimson King
Touched By the Saviour
Like it’s been written many years ago

LoL, I see so many references in that song it isn't safe for me to read it. I'll point them out sometime during the week via PM.