Paladins and Rangers - Pushing them to their "caster sides"

[Fawsto]

Sup guys, long time, no thread.

I am here to discuss a brief topic to which I expect short and decisive answers, so, shall we start?

I was first introduced to the idea of making Paladins and Rangers more "caster like" here at the forums, when I read suggestions to make their spells show up earlier in the game, meaning at levels 1, 2 or 3.

Also this brings me to a problem with the Paladin, mechanically speaking. They are, as another current thread presents them, as one of the most, or the most MAD core class. This problem leads me to this solution:

Would allow Paladins to cast with their Charisma be seriously bizarre or game-breaking? How far this could help the class? Would this decision significantly reduce their MAD? Please consider 2 scenarios: The actual scenario, in which the Paladin does only access his spells by level 4. And the scenario in which a Paladin would start casting sooner (let's assume level 2). Also, consider any spells from the Core Books and spell compendium.

Besides that, would it be wise to give both the Paladin and the Ranger 5th level spells? Which spells would you consider into adding to their spell lists as 5th level spells? Please, stick with core and spell compendium.

Short History: What you Guys think about Rangers and Paladins casting by level 2, Rangers using Wisdom and Paladins using Charisma. These together with a brand new 5th spell level.

[Prometheus]

Since one of the highest complaints about D&D 3.5 is that nonmagic character's are not a viable option for building, pushing them into casting seems to be counterproductive. After all, why do we need another cleric or druid?

[Xefas]

I thought Paladins who had good casting added to them with no downside and less MAD were called Clerics. Or were they called Favored Souls? I can't remember. I know it wasn't Crusader or Incarnate...

Honestly, giving Paladins and Rangers spellcasting starting at 1st level and 5th level spells wouldn't overpower them, nor would giving Paladins Charisma as their casting stat. Heck, they wouldn't even match up to their big brother classes.

EDIT: Mass Cure Light Wounds, Atonement, Commune, Plane Shift, Righteous Might, True Seeing, and Revivify (Spell Compendium) seem like good choices for 5th level Paladin spells.

[Starbuck_II]

Also this brings me to a problem with the Paladin, mechanically speaking. They are, as another current thread presents them, as one of the most, or the most MAD core class. This problem leads me to this solution:

Would allow Paladins to cast with their Charisma be seriously bizarre or game-breaking? How far this could help the class? Would this decision significantly reduce their MAD? Please consider 2 scenarios: The actual scenario, in which the Paladin does only access his spells by level 4. And the scenario in which a Paladin would start casting sooner (let's assume level 2). Also, consider any spells from the Core Books and spell compendium.

Besides that, would it be wise to give both the Paladin and the Ranger 5th level spells? Which spells would you consider into adding to their spell lists as 5th level spells? Please, stick with core and spell compendium.

Short History: What you Guys think about Rangers and Paladins casting by level 2, Rangers using Wisdom and Paladins using Charisma. These together with a brand new 5th spell level.

I say giving Psladins 6th level spells is fine is lower BAB to 3/4th.

[Kris Strife]

I say giving Psladins 6th level spells is fine is lower BAB to 3/4th.

So, the same BAB as bards and clerics for a martial class in exchange for a smaller spell list than either of them?

[ericgrau]

Allow 1/2 of (paladin levels - 2) to stack with cleric levels for a multiclassed paladin/cleric, for the purpose of casting. Character may select spells from either spell list, as long as he has at least 2 paladin levels. Done, easy, and player customizable.

Ranger: same but mixed with druid. 1/2 of ranger levels also stack onto druid levels for purpose of animal companion.

[Kizara]

Sup



adfgar

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The Cha casting for Pally's is perfectly reasonable. I think the only reason they didn't do it was the assumption that all divine classes would use Wis for casting. This was of course before the Favored Soul, Healer, Archivist, and everything else came out.

[Eldariel]

You may also want to check Crystalkeep for "Mystic Ranger". I think that's a fine class as far as this goes, and the same method could be used for a Paladin too. It actually gets just what's suggested here: spells from level 1, and eventually reaching level 5.

[monty]

Isn't there a feat that lets paladins use Cha for casting?

[Fawsto]

And again Kizara provides me with relevant material. Thanks. (Of topic: do you have the most recent copy of your tome? I am in need of ideas due to a concept of my newest campaing scenario. If you do have, please send me a e-mail, I think you still have it)

Paladins should have been the half-breed between a fighter and a cleric, but with their own flavour. Same thing with Rangers (1/2 druid + 1/2 fighter). I mean, yeah you could rp the a Druid and call yourself a Ranger, but you know you are not playing *the* ranger with their own class features. I know, being able to transform into a huge killing beast is obviously excelent, but sometimes it is just not what you want.

Besides that, altought I am giving both classes more spells and showing them up earlier, I am not turning them into full-casters like Clerics and Druids. Most spells given to these classes should be battle-oriented buffs with only a few utility drops. Clerics and Druids (from now on CaDs) have a much wider variety of spells, especialy when we talk about outside combat spells and much more spectacular effects (since they are full casters).

I know, I am walking the opposite direction here, "castifying" these classes. It is interesting to know that a little bit of magic can do wonders with a class, making balance easier (I am not saying this will balance things out, no way, too much to be done besides this).

Reducing their BAB would mean that both classes would lose their role in the party completely. Remember, these are combat oriented dudes. Besides that, 6th spell level is... wow, I never expected myself to say this... unnecessary. It would, again, deviate them form their primary purpose, which is combat.

Btw, I think it wouldn't hurt to give Rangers a similar feat to the Paladin's "Battle Blessings". They also deserve good in battle buffs.


Until now: Paladins and Rangers casting eralier: ok
5th spell level for them: ok
Balance happy: irrelevant

This brings us to this: How could we strecth this until it becomes balance relevant without deviating the classes. Any ideas?


Thanks for your time, please, keep sending ideas and ops.