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2011-02-08, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
That would just own! She have 6 additional attacks!
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2011-02-08, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
An interesting idea, but she would be far, far above the treasure norm even for a CR17 monster. That concept should be reserved for a BBEG (although admittedly, at 17th level extra attacks won't save you from spells unless you're playing a rather non-optimized campaign).
In Dungeons and Dragons, racism is frowned upon, unless you're playing an elf. Then it's an interesting character trait.
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2011-02-08, 09:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
Well it would also make her time even more ungodly long than it already is (no pun intended). Lots of attacks can be powerful but it gets time consuming in tabletop play (though it is not bad in video games).
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2011-02-08, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
Wait: the Speed weapon enhancement stacks if you have multiple wepons? I wasn't aware of that.
EDIT: I'd personally prefer speed scimitars or great scimitars (Sandstorm Exotic weapon, basically a bastard sword, but with an 18-20 crit range.) Give the maralith the EWP and improved crit, while we're at it.
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2011-02-08, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
Theoretically, yes. In practice, having the gm roll a dozen times for just one monster is actually really boring. It gets even worse when the marilith has other demons helping it, and the gm rolls even more times.
That's why the hecatoncheir on epic level for example is an unpopular monster.
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2011-02-08, 09:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
I'm pretty sure multiples of this don't stack.
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2011-02-08, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
Here's the full text on the speed enhancement.
Originally Posted by d20srd
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2011-02-08, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
hmm... "similar effects" I'd have thought it would be 'similiar' to itself. I suppose I could be wrong...
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2011-02-08, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
Speed
When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.
The problem is it is not a stacking issue. The enchantment is affecting the weapon not you. Each enchantment on each weapon is affecting a different thing and so normal stacking principles do not really apply. Now I think it should and the entry should say that the target is affect by the extra attack portion of the haste spell so there would be no way of stacking.
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2011-02-08, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
Having six speed weapons does not fall under the "similar effect" clause.
Although actually, you could simply use haste instead of having six speed weapons, because it achieves the same effect.
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2011-02-08, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
I agree with Meepo. Here it specifically says "extra attack with it". Each weapon is clearly distinct.
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2011-02-08, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
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2011-02-08, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
For the same money (well actually 6000gp more) you can get 2 Bows of splitting and speed. Give those to an arrow demon with 16 BAB and improved rapidshot and you get to roll 24 times on a full attack action. See how long it takes to drive yourself nuts.
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2011-02-08, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-02-08, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
Really? The SRD seems to be ambiguous:
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with any weapon he is holding. The attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a weapon of speed, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)In Dungeons and Dragons, racism is frowned upon, unless you're playing an elf. Then it's an interesting character trait.
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2011-02-08, 09:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
And lets be honest here folks. A maralith can't fly, nor make any pounce type attacks. Giving it an even larger full attack is unlikely to save it from a level appropriate party.
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2011-02-08, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
At a certain point, one should just break attacks into groups of X and make one roll for each set of attacks. It does mean crits can get magnified, but its the only rational way to run something like 100 attacks a round like the Hecatoncheire.
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2011-02-08, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
I mentioned this in the first reply to this thread. The conversation here seems to have moved on to the mechanics of the extra attacks.
Although this is an unusual form of optimization, that doesn't invalidate it as a topic of conversation.
Additionally, mariliths still have greater-teleport at will, which goes a long way to making life difficult for a level appropriate party.
This seems like a perfectly valid method. Although I haven't had a chance to run a high enough level campaign for it to be relevant, I've done something similar to model low-level attacks. Also, at the Hecatoncheire level, aren't there rules for average damage in the epic level handbook? Couldn't that be applied to attacks?Last edited by Bibliomancer; 2011-02-08 at 10:06 PM.
In Dungeons and Dragons, racism is frowned upon, unless you're playing an elf. Then it's an interesting character trait.
Avatar by Darwin.
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2011-02-08, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-02-08, 10:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
I agree, I was simply asserting that the topic was valid (a point which the person to which I was replying seemed to be attempting to contradict). I apologize if my rebuttal was excessively specific and seemed to link optimization to the requirements for an acceptable topic (I was simply trying to provide a more meaningful response than 'actually people can talk about it anyways' since I did not wish to appear to be vigilante modding).
In Dungeons and Dragons, racism is frowned upon, unless you're playing an elf. Then it's an interesting character trait.
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2011-02-08, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
It is, sadly, not awesome. It's EXTREMELY expensive to get this ability, and all it lets you do is kill stuff that you can full attack. Killing stuff you can full attack is really easy anyway, without spending all that cash.
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2011-02-08, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
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2011-02-08, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
Except this isn't a money thing, considering it's on a monster. So regardless of the viability in a totally optimized game, in a game where people don't sit around and crunch numbers or go off trite tier systems it makes for a potentially deadly monster.
Innis CabalLast edited by Innis Cabal; 2011-02-08 at 10:35 PM.
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2011-02-08, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
"the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack..."
If you look at it like this, the property is affecting the wielder. If its affecting the wielder, then each additional weapon of speed would also affect the wielder, and thus would not be allowed by the "similar effects" clause. The "with it(the weapon)." could be seen as a restrictive clause that says that the one extra haste attack you get HAS to be with that weapon, unlike a normal haste attack which can be made with any weapon you are wielding.
Also, the easy way to have the Marilith make extra attacks is to change two of it's feats to Improved Multiweapon Fighting and Greater Multiweapon Fighting. Or heck, even Improved Unarmed Strike would give it 6 extra attacks per round.
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2011-02-09, 02:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
The question of whether multiple Speed weapons can work simultaneously has come up many times, and always in the end comes down to "It's ambiguous; ask your DM."
But a strong little piece of evidence in favor of Speed weapons working together is often overlooked. In a relatively modern, well-edited splatbook (Magic Item Compendium), there's an item, the Quarterstaff of Battle, which has a special ability to temporarily give both ends of it the Speed property. That would be pretty useless if you couldn't use them both, methinks.You can call me Draz.
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2011-02-09, 02:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-02-09, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
You want additional attacks?
Take a Level 12 Wizard, his BAB should be 6. Or better yet make it a Gish with a BAB of at least 11, so that he has 3 iteratives. Buy 12 Mouthpick weapons +1 [LoM] at the sum of 8,000+ gp each.
Now Polymorph into a 12-headed Hydra and wield one mouthpick weapon with each head. Mouthpick weapons specifically allow iterative attacks without requiring the bite weapon to be a primary natural attack, so each head can attack 2-3 times (depending on whether you are a straight wizard or a gish) for 24-36 attacks per round (scaling to 48, if your Gish manages to gain a 4th iterative).
If you really want to go to town, make all your weapons bludgeoning, and cast reach chained Greater Might Wallop on all of them. It should be quite easy to push their effective base damage to colossal size (since Hydras normally wield huge mouthpick weapons). So if you were using e.g. Warhammers, you could deal 6d6 base +6 Str bonus + 1 Enhancement or an average of 28 damage per hit (and gets better if you can cast reach-chain Greater Magic Weapon).Last edited by JeminiZero; 2011-02-09 at 04:47 AM.
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2011-02-09, 05:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
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2011-02-09, 05:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-02-09, 06:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wouldn't a Marilith with 6 Speed Longswords be awesome!?
Mariliths make pretty good ranged attackers themselves.
Hide them in a permanent image of a wall (they ignore this illusion due to their true-seeing), use project image to make them appear far away while bombarding them with telekinesis and blade barriers.My humble efforts at re-cr'ing MM2
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