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2012-02-14, 07:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
This seems to me to be falling into the old trap of assuming that Evil beings can't have friendships or emotional attachments, which is not the case. It's furthermore ignoring that even the most rigidly Evil society would realise that caring for your young is kind of important to the continuation of your race, which is a much deeper and more primal urge than any kind of alignment. (Heck, most animals instinctively care for their children, without any need for empathy).
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2012-02-14, 07:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Truly Evil beings can't care. There are, as with most things, many shades of evil, and I wanted to wipe away the extremes form the get go. I would argue that even a large group of mostly evil beings could form a society (although I have doubts as to how stable it could ever be).
I would also argue that some animals have empathy (and others, well, they fall under that exception I didn't want to bother getting into (But essentially involves levels of intelligence and selfishness)).
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2012-02-14, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
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2012-02-14, 07:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2010
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I think you overstate the case Dr._Demento is making. He is not saying that an Evil being cannot have friendship or emotional attachment; rather, he is saying that it's reasonable to say a MORE Evil being will have LESS friendship and/or emotional attachments.
Also, many of the most evil beings (denizens of the Lower Planes) don't need to care for their young or ensure the continuation of their race. So that restraint is removed.
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2012-02-14, 07:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I dunno; the world of D&D and high fantasy operates in a way that just doesn't resemble the real world. The real world has no dark gods, no corrupting mystical powers, no fiends and archfiends that influence the nature or makeup of the universe and its people (not in a literal sense, anyway).
I can accept, for example, that red and green and blue dragons are inherently evil in a way that doesn't quite make sense, because the game tells us that they are the creations/children/pawns of Tiamat, a goddess of Pure Evil, basically Dragon Satan. Plainly, we cannot say this about any living creature in the real world, so the "argument" of D&D would only last in the real world for about as long as it would take us to verify the non-existence of Dragon Satan. So, honestly, it's never bothered me in the way it does you, nor, evidently, has it ever bothered the designers that way.
I understand that if we look at fantasy gaming as analogous to real world racial or international conflicts that the overtones of the game then become incredibly disturbing. But I've never felt that such an analogy was sound because, well, LOOK at the game; it's absurd, intentionally and even comically absurd. Of course, D&D is, by design, many things to many people. Your experiences and perspective on it are obviously very different from mine. I guess I'm lucky not to have played in some of the games you have.
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2012-02-14, 07:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I could say that this goes to the contrast between people who run D&D as a tactical wargame with simple morality vs people who are interested in roleplaying and dealing with more complex issues other than see goblin, kill goblin.
You have to know your audience and match it to the game you want, if all you want is a tactical game with simple morality, then you can't be in or run a game for people interested in roleplaying.
In the same way, if you want to run a complex storyline in a world with depth, you can't allow in to the group people who want a tactical game with simple morality.
Like any novel or story, this comic has more complex stories that the simplistic tactical game with the simple morality you like.
The issue here isn't that there's any sort of failed characterization, the issue is that your tastes don't match those of any writer, reader, or player of more complex fiction.
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2012-02-14, 07:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I don't see a problem at all with Redcloak having a REASON for being evil. Having a reason is not him being a lawful good goblin.
If the comic was purely written from the perspective of the characters (As it started) then Redcloaks motivations would never have been revealed. He would simply be Xy's plucky side-kick. Maybe Nerd Paladin would prefer it that way, and you do have the option of skipping the panels that are not a PC's story and join them in the adventure. You will be denying yourself some clever writing, and I won't be doing that...it would fix the issues you have with following the villain's side.
"I laugh at life, it's antics make for me a giddy game. Where only foolish fellows take themselves with solemn aim.”
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2012-02-14, 07:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2005
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I would say it's more along the lines of, "See goblin invade my homeland/ambush my caravan/raise demons/sacrifice prisoners to its gods" etc. As I've stated repeatedly, I interpret alignment as a label on actions, not their incitement.
You have to know your audience and match it to the game you want, if all you want is a tactical game with simple morality, then you can't be in or run a game for people interested in roleplaying.
Like any novel or story, this comic has more complex stories that the simplistic tactical game with the simple morality you like.
The issue here isn't that there's any sort of failed characterization, the issue is that your tastes don't match those of any writer, reader, or player of more complex fiction.
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2012-02-14, 07:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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2012-02-14, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
That doesn't bar him from having been Lawful Neutral at the start of SoD- LE deities allow LN clerics of them. Though there is admittedly no evidence either way.
And LN clerics of LE deities still "ping a paladin's Evil Radar".
If the Dark one is NE with the special trait of being able to grant the Law domain, as opposed to LE, this might be trickier.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-02-14, 07:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
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2012-02-14, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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- Philadelphia, PA
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
This is treading very close to real-world religion already, but suffice to say that if you have a means of verifying the non-existence of any given deity in the real world, there are a few billion people who might want to give it a spin.
But beyond that, no fiction is meaningful if its lessons cannot be applied to the world that we, real actual humans, live in. If you are going to dismiss any themes or subtext present in any fantasy story as simply not applying to our world because that world has dragons and ours doesn't, then you have largely missed the point of literature as a whole, and are likely rather poorer for it. Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism. So if I can make even one person think about how we treat people of other races (or religions, or creeds, or what have you) by using the analogy of Redcloak, then it will have been time well spent on my part.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2012-02-14, 07:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
The difference between a tactical game with simple morals and roleplaying is just that, if you're not worrying and dealing with moral issues you aren't roleplaying, you're simply pushing a miniature figure on a playing board.
Both types of games can be fun, but they are two different games, and you need to be aware of the group you're running/playing in.
No, tactical gaming vs roleplaying goes to group's taste and style, it is not dependent on the actual game rules design, though naturally certain elements of rules will be better at helping instead of hindering roleplay, just like certain elements of rules will be better at helping instead of hindering tactical gaming.
In D&D this dichotomy goes back to the creators, with Gygax being into tactical gaming, and Arneson being a roleplayer into complex world creation and story.
It goes without saying that you can find numerous first person accounts from DMs and fellow players on how Gygax was a terrible roleplayer and ran tactical games, while Arneson was a great roleplayer who ran games in complex worlds, different strokes and all.
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2012-02-14, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Mr. Burlew, I always strongly suspected you were someone deserving the highest level of respect, and I have been waiting for you to give pure, solid, blunt, and utterly undeniable 100% proof that I was right.
I have found it, and I am proud to call you one of my highest... what's the word I'm looking for. Idol? Hero? Role-model?
You are awesome.
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2012-02-14, 07:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-14, 07:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Last edited by hamishspence; 2012-02-14 at 07:53 AM.
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2012-02-14, 07:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-02-14, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Okay, yes, you cannot conclusively prove a negative. Still, in fantasy gaming we have concrete influence of inherently evil mystical entities that colors our interpretations. That makes a big difference.
But beyond that, no fiction is meaningful if its lessons cannot be applied to the world that we, real actual humans, live in. If you are going to dismiss any themes or subtext present in any fantasy story as simply not applying to our world because that world has dragons and ours doesn't, then you have largely missed the point of literature as a whole, and are likely rather poorer for it.
Fantasy literature is ONLY worthwhile for what it can tell us about the real world; everything else is petty escapism.
So if I can make even one person think about how we treat people of other races (or religions, or creeds, or what have you) by using the analogy of Redcloak, then it will have been time well spent on my part.Last edited by Nerd_Paladin; 2012-02-14 at 08:00 AM.
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2012-02-14, 08:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2003
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I am not playing a game.
I am writing a story that happens to use some of the same terminology and/or base assumptions as a specific game in order to frame the issues that I want to talk about in a way that is easily accessible. Some of those issues are about that game and how it is played and some of those issues are about the real world and how we relate to it. I mix the two freely.
Therefore, whether or not the game lends itself to this sort of introspection has no bearing on whether or not this sort of introspection belongs in my work of fiction, even if I also discuss that game. In the same way as the rules of the game of basketball do not lend themselves to a discussion of heroin abuse, but the book The Basketball Diaries still talks about both.
EDIT: I should write "Ce n'est pas un jeu des cachots et des dragons" under every comic from now on.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2012-02-14, 08:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2009
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
My webcomic!
Currently DMing:
Tales of Aequar: Runite's Rise IC
OOC Map
Playing Natalia Bolts,Jadeite Nocrius, and Soren Lowell
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2012-02-14, 08:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
SpoilerShe attended a religious ceremony for an evil god - Redcloak's initiation. Just the very end is shown, but it is likely that some form of active participation would have been required from the audience.
Besides that there may have been something else that caused detect evil to ping which was not shown.
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2012-02-14, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
That is a pretty big assumption you spoilerd, I find nothing in the comic that gives the impression his little sister has committed any evil action.
If you are going to defend the paladin's actions, I go with the same justification as Carpet Bombing or Kill Every Firstborn Son.
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2012-02-14, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
They must be some other paladins, not shown anywhere in the comic.
We are told that the Sapphire Guard is small. concerned with guarding the gate, and seeks out threats to the gate to destroy them. Their reaction to finding a wearer of the crimson mantle (both times) confirms that they correctly regard such a being as such a threat.
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2012-02-14, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
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2012-02-14, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2007
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
But not necessarily an evil act that "warrants execution"
Spoiler- quite apart from the fact that, as a child, she may have no choice about attending.Marut-2 Avatar by Serpentine
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2012-02-14, 08:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2009
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
I was talking about the active participation part. There is no indication that there is any more active participation than a high school graduation ceremony.
Also,Spoilera child is scarcely responsible for what ceremonies they are brought to by their families (although I am sure if you asked she would have claimed to be a devout follower of the Dark One, but even then, worshiping an evil god does not make you evil)Last edited by Dr._Demento; 2012-02-14 at 08:47 AM.
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2012-02-14, 08:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
But it's not a D&D world; a D&D world doesn't have tribes of plucky goblins who mind their own business until accosted. See original comment.
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2012-02-14, 08:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
She had not committed an Evil act.
And it's ridiculous to think that any given six-year-old may have committed a horrible act worthy of being executed unless the text says otherwise, just because that six-year-old has green skin and her parents bring her to their church services. That right there is enough reason for the story to be the way it is. No author should have to take the time to say, "This little girl ISN'T evil, folks!" in order for the reader to understand that. It should be assumed that no first graders are irredeemably Evil unless the text tells you they are.Rich Burlew
Now Available: 2023 OOTS Holiday Ornament plus a big pile of new t-shirt designs (that you can also get on mugs and stuff)!
~~You can also support The Order of the Stick and the GITP forum at Patreon.~~
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2012-02-14, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Like I said a few pages back, OP, your morality works fine for D&D the game. For D&D: Storytime Edition, it falls flat. Which is basically what the Giant told you in his EDIT: (next to) last post. As soon as you can make the division in your mind between D&D as a game and D&D as a tool for storytelling (and there's a couple of hundred books done under various D&D licences) you'll be at ease, I think. It seems to be the fundamental stumbling block you keep tripping over.
EDITED: Giant posted while I was posting, making his last post no longer his last post.
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2012-02-14, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Redcloak's failed characterization, and what it means for the comic as a whole.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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