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2013-01-22, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
Mysteries are spells. At higher level, they also become (sp) at (su), but mysteries never stop being spells.
Shadowcaster is a spellcasting class. Geomancer allows Spell Versatility to combine paramaters from their spellcasting classes, when those spells are cast.
A Shadow Evocation cast using Spell Versatility, remains a spell up until the point it is cast. When it it cast, it can mix and match the parameters from the Geomancers spellcasting classes for maximum benefit. Once that spell is cast, issues of elligablity are redundant, because it has already been cast.
Now, if you wanted to say that a high level Shadowcaster could not cast their (su) or (sp) mysteries through Spell Versatility, I would agree with you. However, that was not what my (non) entry was specced for.
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2013-01-22, 09:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
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2013-01-22, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
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- GMT + 12
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2013-01-22, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
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2013-01-22, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
You specifically said:
Mysteries are spells. At higher level, they also become (sp) at (su), but mysteries never stop being spells.
Can I have a quote that says shadowcasters are spellcasters?. I can't find any and this quote from ToM:
Unlike spellcasters, you don’t get bonus mysteries for a high ability score.
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2013-01-22, 10:39 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
I am not seaweed. That's a B.
Praise I've received A quick outline on building a homebrew campaign
Avatar by Tiffanie Lirle
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2013-01-22, 10:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- The Great White North
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
WinWin, this phrase is probably the major reason I gave up on my build.
It mentions that mysteries count as spells of X level if the PrC requires X level spells. On the other hand, it never once refers to them as spellcasters. Casters (or mystery-caster), yes, but not spellcasters.
Personally, I'm treating them like invocation users - sorta spellcasters, but at the same time, not spellcasters.
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2013-01-22, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2010
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
page 111, the Shadowcaster class description refers to Shadowcasters as spellcasters.
page 117, again refers to shadowcasters as spellcasters.
Mysteries explicitly function as arcane spells, unless modified by class features. Logically, this makes them spellcasters.
It does not matter that their spellcasting system has a funny name and wierd interations with other forms of spellcasting. When they cast spells, they follow all of the rules for casting spells with a few particular exeptions, that can subsequently be exploited by a Geomancers Spell Versatility.
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2013-01-23, 12:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- The Great White North
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
...where? I see two places that it implies that they're spellcasters ("...than other spellcasters")
page 117, again refers to shadowcasters as spellcasters.
Mysteries explicitly function as arcane spells, unless modified by class features. Logically, this makes them spellcasters.
Originally Posted by Mysteries and Paths, ToM, p112
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2013-01-23, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
It makes no such expicit reference. It simply states that "Shadowcasters do not cast spells as other classes do".
It means, "Shadowcasters cast their spells differently to other spellcasters", not "Shadowcasters do not cast spells". Because, shadowcasters do actually cast spells and your interpretation would make absolutely no sense, when contexualised by the actual abilities of the class.
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2013-01-23, 04:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
Neither does a bard or Shugenja IIRC.
In regards to the comment referring to casting spells but invoking mysteries, you invoke mysteries which are arcane spells.
Unfortunately for the purposes of meeting geomancer prereqs you need to cast spells, and invoking is not casting, similar to having a l2 scroll would not allow you to meet prereq due to being completion, not cast.
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2013-01-23, 06:11 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2010
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
You do not invoke mysteries.
Mysteries are cast. When a mystery is a spell, you're casting a spell. You follow all of the rules for casting a spell. When it is a spell like ability, you're casting a spell-like ability, and following all of the rules for spell-like abilities, and so on.
Regardless, my (non) entry did not use Shadowcaster to qualify for Geomancer. It used Sha'ir. I never claimed you could enter Geomancer using Shadowcaster.
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2013-01-23, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
I really think you've convinced yourself here.
You invoke mysteries which work like arcane spells. Nothing is "cast", and neither do you have the ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells.
In regards to illegality, spare a thought for Xian Ha Feng (Neraph Wu Jen/Incantatrix base); it cannot enter Incantatrix due to not being able to cast 3rd level spells.
However, it is easy enough to bring in geomancer 1 at 8th level and delay incantatrix entry by 1. And as they ran out of time I think that was what was intended. Especially as the sweet spot is clearly ECL20, it has little effect outside of delaying metamagic effect until 11th rather than 10th.
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2013-01-23, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
...but you said:
Mysteries are spells. At higher level, they also become (sp) at (su), but mysteries never stop being spells.
Really, I wasn't arguring about the interpretation in the first quote above. It's debatable but a reasonable interpretation. What I was arguing was the second quote above.
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2013-01-23, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
The 2nd is a long time coming. =(.
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2013-01-23, 01:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011
- Location
- Texas
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
I've got a new fantasy TTRPG about running your own fencing school in a 3 musketeers pastiche setting. Book coming soon.
Check out my NEW sci-fi TTRPG about first contact. Cool alien races, murderous AIs, and more. New expansion featuring rules for ships! New book here NOW!
Iron Chef Medals!
Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition
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2013-01-23, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- The Great White North
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
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2013-01-23, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
Curmudgeon's 2cp on Mysteries and Spell Versatility, fwiw:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon
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2013-01-23, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
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Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
Aha, light at the end of the tunnel! I know it's verboten here on the Internet, but can I suggest that both sides could be correct? From where I stand, the problem is in unclear wording which can be interpreted either way.
Originally Posted by Tome of Magic
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2013-01-23, 04:42 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
You do not cast spells as other classes do, but instead invoke mystical secrets called mysteries
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2013-01-23, 05:13 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
Your kind of right but really the whole thing is a big mess.
on page 111 it says the shadowcaster is "less versatile than other spellcasters." This defines shadowcasters as spellcasters.
it goes on to say "like most spell users, her role depends largely on the magic she chooses."
It then immediately contradicts itself on page 112 by saying "You do not cast spells, as other classes do."
It then swings back the other way again by saying "Mysteries represent thought patterns an formulae so alien that other spells seem simple in comparison." This defines mysteries as spells again....
"You cast them as though they were arcane spells."
"Whenever you cast a mystery as an arcane spell..."
"Now function as spell-like abilities" so not spells anymore...
It then says at the very very end on page 113
"Even though as a shadow caster you do not "cast spells" in the traditional sense" This implies that you DO cast spells in some sense, just not in the traditional sense, whatever that is.
So yeh, I just assume this very sheltered designer never read any of the other books or concerned himself with thoughts of how his pretty poorly designed and worded class would interact with the information that might be in them.
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2013-01-24, 09:45 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
In the interest for future Comps, can you use classes from OA in place of the Completes - i.e the Samurai, etc.
That Samurai is so different from the CW version.
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2013-01-24, 02:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- The Great White North
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
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2013-01-24, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
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2013-01-24, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
There's also an OA Ninja, which is different than the CAd Ninja.
OA - assuming it isn't the source for the Secret Ingredient - has always fallen into a difficult 'in-between' space for Iron Chef. If you're clear in marking that you're using the OA version, and are willing to accept that some judges may find it inelegant due to the facts that 1)the OA Class probably got remade elsewhere 2) there exists an official (but, for our purposes, off-limits) update to the OA Classes in Dragon, my instinct tells me it's been deemed okay in the past.
If someone has found a previous ruling that contradicts the above, please say so.
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2013-01-25, 05:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2008
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2013-01-25, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
- Gender
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
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2013-01-26, 01:01 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2012
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
I'll throw my hat in as a judge this go round. I've been a lurker for a while and it's about time I contributed.
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2013-01-26, 09:42 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2011
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
Last edited by Gotterdammerung; 2013-01-26 at 09:43 AM.
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2013-01-26, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2006
Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XLI
IdleMuse made some promising noises back on page one.
Also, +1 to *clap*, thanks for judging, Darkcouch.