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Thread: The Mandalorian Season 2
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2021-03-04, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
He made the galaxy dance to his tune for a generation largely due to being a good at playing politics to start with. The Sith weren't able to get to that point for a thousand years beforehand. And the Jedi rather pointedly did not engage in politics. Also, we see the Jedi being surprised just all the time. Their precognition is extremely limited to immediate danger and visions of the future are notoriously unreliable.
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2021-03-04, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
You are assuming that wasn't the plan.
They tried to overthrow the democratically elected leader of The Republic - and failed so bad he used it as partial justification to establish The Empire, and they did that only due to his religion which they only heard about from one source and didn't bother to verify before seeking to arrest him.
One has to wonder what their plan was if it turned out he wasn't a Sith Lord (or if he was how they were planning to prove it to the politicians and confirm he didn't have a master or an apprentice out there still pulling the strings).
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2021-03-04, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Less mystically the Empire is a triumph of low expectations.
The relatively small number of whims realized and fancy things created by strip mining a very large resource and talent pool seems impressive, but in the long term the constructed spectacles are wasteful and have limited utility.
It's like building a $20K kitchen and killing three chefs to make a cheese sandwich exactly the way you want it.
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2021-03-04, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
The problem with Force Users in government is that the Force is non-utilitarian. Choosing the lesser of two evils isn't something Jedi, or really any light side oriented force user, can acceptably do. Such actions gradually taint and corrupt them. But politics, in a universe of limited resources, demands hard choices of this kind all the time. Consequently, putting force users in charge of the government for anything other than extreme emergencies (ex. if the Republic needs to fight an all out war with a Sith Empire) is just a bad idea.
There are lots of examples throughout Star Wars of non-force using characters getting away completely unscathed with the kinds of actions that would drive force users to the dark side. one of the most famous Legends examples involves the deaths of Palpatine. In RotJ Luke has to throw down his lightsaber. He can't kill Palpatine on the Death Star, doing so would doom him and everyone in the room knows it. But in Dark Empire, a furious Han Solo shoots the cloned Palpatine in the back, killing him for the last time, and it's nothing to him.
Bottom line: politics is a dirty business, and force users have to be pure.
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2021-03-04, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
aking back Tatooine from the Hutts would involve a massive law enforcement campaign of searches, seizures, arrests, interdictions, and more to put the squeeze on Hutt operations until they ceased to be profitable, at which point the Hutts would up-sticks and go somewhere else, Hutt society being very explicitly in it for the (giant piles of) money.
Trade sanctions would make the Hutts rich, because smugglers are suddenly in high demand.
Palps can run rings around non force users as much or better than the Jedi, having non force users in charge makes no difference.
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2021-03-04, 06:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
I don't know if I agree with that. You put a jedi in charge of organizing a humanitarian effort to help, say, naboo after some tidal event and they're still going to have to make a lot of hard choices.
I would also suggest that the jedi accidentally instilled a deep fear of falling into themselves, and that was a significant contributing factor to Anakin's fall. But there isn't any real evidence that you can't just get right back up again if you have the drive and desire to. Heck, thats what luke did to Vader.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-03-04, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
But Vader killing Palpatine is seen as a redeeming moment. And Obi-Wan slices down Maul without comment. I think it's less that Luke can't kill Palpatine, he just underestimated his force ability by several magnitudes and thought Vader was the only real threat. Intent also matters, Anakin cut down Dooku after he was no further threat solely driven by revenge. If he had beheaded him earlier in the fight as a matter of necessity it wouldn't have been an issue.
Edit: But that absolutely should have been the end of Rise of Skywalker. Rey realizes that Palpatine is an empty shell held together by will alone and he needs a force sensitive body (or, sigh, Dyad) to take over. She realizes that going to fight him is exactly what he wants and serves as a rallying leader in the space battle instead. Palpatine is instead killed by a strike force of non-force sensitives (or heck, even 3P0 turning off his life support. I'd have loved that).Last edited by Dire_Flumph; 2021-03-04 at 07:26 PM.
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2021-03-04, 07:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
I mean, ultimately, the Force is weird. Everything in the Force happens in the now, meaning that the light/dark association of any particular action can shift from moment to moment depending on a variety of factors.
Originally Posted by Keltest
The great advantage of the Force is that it empowers additional options in the case of moral quandaries. For instance, if you throw the trolley problem at a normal person their only option is to pull or not pull the switch. A Jedi has - and is obligated to pick - option C: "I stop the trolley with the power of my mind."
I would also suggest that the jedi accidentally instilled a deep fear of falling into themselves, and that was a significant contributing factor to Anakin's fall. But there isn't any real evidence that you can't just get right back up again if you have the drive and desire to. Heck, thats what luke did to Vader.
Bringing someone back from the dark side is very difficult. Luke saving Vader was an extraordinary event. While characters can come back from to the light, it's usually a long, brutal, and complex process and the result is rarely any sort of paragon of goodness but a far more mixed character. The arc of Asajj Ventress as seen through the course of TCW is a much more typical representation of how this sort of thing goes.
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2021-03-06, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
It's "weird" because you're looking at the morality of the actions themselves and failing to consider the morality of the motivations behind the actions. In striking down the Emperor at the end of his duel with Vader, Luke would be choosing to act out of fear, anger, or hate - the Emperor has not yet revealed himself to be a threat to Luke in any physical sense and there is no clear reason to think that the Emperor's death would have any influence on the outcome of the battle between Imperial and Rebel forces in the background as the Emperor for the most part appears to be an observer to the engagement, so what's Luke's immediate motivation to strike him down at the end of the duel? Hatred of what the Emperor stands for, anger over being manipulated into fighting his father, perhaps fear of what further machinations the Emperor could yet devise. Manipulating Luke into consciously choosing to take an action like this in contravention of his morals is exactly what Vader and the Emperor have been attempting to do throughout their time with Luke in the throne room - that's pretty much the entire point of the Emperor telling Luke that the Rebellion is walking into a trap and allowing Luke to witness the engagement between the Rebel and Imperial fleets was, it's part of why the Death Star superlaser's operational status was kept secret until Luke was in position to observe its effects, it's the primary reason for the Emperor to assure Luke that he's unarmed even as he encourages Luke to take up his lightsaber and strike him down, it's why Vader prods Luke over his failure to hide his relationship to Leia and suggests that Leia would be the next target for corruption if Luke refuses to fall, and it's why the Emperor speaks up at the end of the duel to push Luke to strike Vader down, because he doesn't really want Luke to kill Vader in the heat of the moment - he wants Luke to consciously set aside whatever remained of his earlier scruples and choose to kill Vader, now that Luke's been provoked into breaking his earlier moral restraint and in so doing has beaten Vader down and disarmed him.
Last edited by Aeson; 2021-03-06 at 06:16 PM.
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2021-03-06, 07:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Um...yeah, the point is that the Force only considers the 'morality of the motivations' not the morality of the actions themselves. That is weird, it elevates motives above not only the ends, but also the means. It's probably best characterized as a form of virtue ethics, but one that completely disregards actions in place of feelings, and it simply does not match up well with the ethical understanding held by almost the entirety of the audience (ie. humans born in the 20th and 21st century).
Return of the Jedi contains a neat trick in that Luke tossing aside his lightsaber ultimately has a good outcome from a consequentialist perspective because Vader ultimately kills the Emperor anyway, but the actual ethics of the Force is that tossing aside his lightsaber was the right thing to do utterly irrespective of the outcomes, that it would have been the right choice even if Palpatine had simply pulled out a blaster and shot Luke and then immediately escaped the Death Star and gone on to rule the galaxy with an iron fist forever. IMO that's incredibly hard to accept, and there are a lot of things like this in Star Wars.
For example. In the Jedi Academy trilogy Kyp Durron falls to the dark side, gets his hands on a superweapon, and blows up a planet. A few hundred pages later he comes back to the light. Luke, as his Jedi Master, immediately forgives him and reinstates him as a Jedi and Kyp, after recovering from his injuries, goes back to gallivanting about the galaxy as a Jedi, ultimately becoming a Jedi Master himself. The fact that he's a mass murderer who obliterated an entire biosphere in a war crime for the ages just doesn't matter as far as Force-based ethics are concerned, and while Kevin J. Anderson got a lot of things about Star Wars wrong, he wasn't wrong about that. After all, Vader returns to the light at the end of RotJ, despite having killed, over the course of his quarter-century as a Sith Lord millions or billions of people (the count varies depending on continuity) and committed basically every atrocity for which humanity possesses a name multiple times. Lucas, smartly, elided the issue by immediately having Vader die, but if he had lived, as far as the Force is concerned it's not appropriate to punish Anakin for any of the stuff he did as Vader.
This makes a lot of people deeply uncomfortable. EU author Aaron Allston even had Luke explicitly admit (this happened in the FotJ novel Outcast, which is not a good series but the point was well made irrespective of that) that if you remove the Force from the equation the Jedi suddenly turn into criminals. Ethics as viewed through the lens of the Force simply aren't compatible with pretty much any secular conception of ethics known and considering that almost everyone in Star Wars who isn't Force sensitive has a secular understanding of ethics this gets very strange. If a non-Force sensitive person blows up a planet (ex. Grand Moff Tarkin), they'll be tried for planetary genocide and executed, but if a force user does that under dark side influence and returns to the light that suddenly becomes wrong.
It's very messy.
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2021-03-06, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Whenever people discuss the Force in any deconstructive manner, my mind always goes to this scene in Donnie Darko.
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2021-03-07, 01:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
The problem with your argument for why Luke should be morally justified in killing the Emperor is that you are constructing a rationalization based on potentialities ("if the Emperor does not die by Luke's or Vader's hand in the throne room, he might survive the battle of Endor and go on to inflict untold harm upon the galaxy") and factors of which Luke is, to the audience's knowledge, unaware (the Emperor is a significant and immediate physical threat, not just a moral one). The only warnings Luke has been given regarding the Emperor's power are vague (things like "do not underestimate the Emperor's power" and "you do not know the power of the Dark Side of the Force"), and on top of that the Emperor presents himself as old, physically unimposing, unarmed, and reliant upon Vader for protection against Luke when virtually all previous encounters between Force adepts - especially in Luke's experience - have been rather physical in nature and involve weapons; additionally, Luke knows of Palpatine's success in corrupting Anakin and interest in corrupting him, and has also been warned several times that the Dark Side is an easy and seductive path, but not one which grants greater power. Thus, given what Luke sees of the Emperor, what Luke sees of the Emperor's behaviour, and what we know Luke knows of the nature of the Dark Side and the Emperor's past history of corrupting those around him, it would be reasonable for Luke to think that the threat of which he has been warned is largely, or perhaps even entirely, moral in character. Furthermore, we know that, at least on his arrival in the throne room, Luke expects the Rebel attack to succeed and it is strongly implied that he thinks that the Emperor will die as a direct consequence of that, rather undercutting the argument that in killing the Emperor Luke would not be acting immorally because he would be preventing potential future harm.
Also, arguing the morality of an actor based on the potential future outcomes and consequences of their actions is very questionable, and while it is in human nature to cut someone slack when their actions produce positive outcomes and judge more harshly when their actions produce negative outcomes that really doesn't have a lot of bearing on their morality.
Um...yeah, the point is that the Force only considers the 'morality of the motivations' not the morality of the actions themselves.Last edited by Aeson; 2021-03-07 at 01:47 AM.
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2021-03-07, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
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Are we seriously arguing about whether it's morally justified to strike down the embodiment of evil in the GFFA? The man who overthrew the Republic? The man who issued Order 66? The man who built the Death Star, and when it was blown up built another one? The man who deceived the Separatist leaders into a galaxy-spanning war, and then had them all murdered once they had served their purpose? A man who, throughout the PT, ST, and OT, has been characterized by lies, deceits, and murder with no redeeming characteristics beyond a love of the opera?
The list of atrocities the Emperor was responsible for and would continue to be responsible for, left unchecked, is almost uncounted. I view killing him no different than I would if someone shot an axe murderer chasing their latest victim down the street, axe in hand.
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Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2021-03-07, 02:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-03-07, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
That's fair. The emotional state is closely linked to whether an action is light or dark side. I suppose that Luke would have to achieve a state of pure emotionless calm in order to strike down the Emperor and not fall because of it, but it doesn't really seem like there are many Jedi who can attain that level of detachment and calm. Yoda, perhaps. Certainly not Mace Windu, Qui-gonn, or Obi-Wan.
Respectfully,
Brian P."Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth. Sooner or later, that debt is paid."
-Valery Legasov in Chernobyl
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2021-03-07, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-07, 03:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
I always thought that was a very weird aspect of the Force.
1) Dude commits atrocities and will unfailingly continue to commit atrocities unless stopped.
2) You get mad because of all the atrocities.
3) Because you're mad, you now can't kill the dude who did the atrocities and will continue to do atrocities, because doing so will either (a) allow him to possess you(?) or (b) make you just as bad if not worse.
4) There is no other feasible way to stop the guy from doing the atrocities short of killing him.
Star Wars basically wrote itself into a corner with a setup this contrived. It resulted in every means of defeating Palpatine rely on the man himself becoming incredibly idiotic, which isn't satisfying for a villainous mastermind.
What Star Wars needed was another way to stop him that didn't result in either stupid behavior or massive inconsistencies. Both LotR and ATLA did this kind of dilemma far better.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-03-07, 03:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Since they started introducing alternate Force religions in Legends, I chose to believe that was simply a Jedi/Sith belief, and did not necessarily have any grounding in reality.
For example, Anakin straight-up murdered an entire kindergarten class and yet was able to just say "oh ya know what I'ma be good now" and apparently make it so, so I ahve reason to doubt the Jedi authority on how stuff actually works.Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2021-03-07, 04:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2021-03-07, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
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2021-03-07, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Yoda and Palpatine both incorrectly believe that once you turn to the Dark Side you can never recover. Luke being able to surpass them by understanding that yes, you can get back up if you fall down is an important part of his triumph. Heck, pretty much all throughout episode 6 Luke is insistent that Vader can be redeemed, and that he's going to do it. Letting your emotions control you is bad and dangerous, but that doesnt mean you should be afraid of them.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-03-07, 05:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
The key bit is that Jedi are supposed to bypass Step #2. Jedi are supposed to master their emotions - no be unfeeling, which is what Anakin mistakenly believed - but to reach an enlightened state where emotional input ceases to matter and only the guidance of the Force remains. This is a religious concept based on a specific set religious beliefs in a somewhat garbled presentation by Lucas.
Jedi can, and do (mostly in Legends), kill extremely powerful Sith without having any dark side issues. It's just that they have surpassed any feelings of anger towards their foes. Rebels, actually, has a number of examples of Jedi doing just this, particularly Obi-Wan killing Maul for the second time.
Edit: it's arguable that Luke does this in Return of the Jedi. That once he throws away his lightsaber he's discarded his hatred and if he was somehow given the chance to walk out and go through the whole sequence again he absolutely could strike Palpatine down in peace and clarity.
Originally Posted by Peelee
In fairness though, Anakin's redemption of the second Death Star is supposed to have been this brutally difficult, never-happened-before, type of event. And it's possible that such a drastic reversal was always intended to demand the life of the person involved (reversing your ethical trajectory that hard can be imagined as turning a fighter jet too fast, the g-forces rip it apart). Legends creators compounded the problem by allowing entirely too many other people to return from way down in the dark hole - not just momentary lapses like Obi-Wan v Maul round one or even some of Luke's poor decisions in his early academy years - without any real consequence. Rather than extremely narrow and almost impossibly steep the road to redemption was made wide and flat. The Kyp Durron precedent, since I'm fairly certain he was the first chronological case of returning to the light and living after having committed some truly heinous crimes, was a terrible one.Last edited by Mechalich; 2021-03-07 at 06:08 PM.
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2021-03-07, 06:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Luke killed how many people on the Death Star?
But killing the man who ordered its creation and use, as well established the whole empire to which such violence and terror is casually used as the chief form of control and legitimacy, that's a spiritual matter you have to meditate on?
Again, Psyren brings up the point I usual make with the ATLA reference. If - like Aang - your protagonist has committed to a pacifist ideology and the conflict is whether you can truly maintain that in the face of someone you know is going to unleash untold death and suffering which you can stop, then that's internally consistent. Had Aang routinely drowned, buried, crushed, choked, and impaled Fire Nation soldiers in his path then in the face of the Fire Lord decided to pull a "but am I doing the right thing?" then -- screw that noise.
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2021-03-07, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Uh, end of season 1?
Notably, remember what happens when Luke tries to cut Palpatine down. Vader blocks it. Palpatine doesn't actually intend to sit there and die. If that was the end goal, he would have let that strike land.
I don't think Yoda and Palpatine believe that no one can return from the Dark Side, they believe that Vader can't, and they have good reasons to believe that. They saw him kill children, Obi Wan saw him choke unconscious his pregnant wife when she questioned him about killing those younglings. If he was going to turn back, he would have by now.
Supposing Luke kills Vader in the end. Palpatine's still standing there, fully capable of defending himself, and his guards are one call for help away. He's not in danger, he just gets to laugh at Luke for killing his own father just because he was angry and Palpatine told him to.
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2021-03-07, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Besides the fact that Luke wasnt remotely trained with the Force at that point, there continues to be a difference (to the Force) between a kill made in hatred and malice versus one made out of necessity and detachment.
Had Luke given into the Emperor's goading and actually attacked him, he would be giving into all his negative emotions and letting them drive his actions. It doesnt matter that he's doing it for a good reason, because once you start letting hatred and rage dictate your behavior, you start doing nasty things for bad reasons. Vader, case in point, got angry with his wife and murdered her in a spur of the moment reflexive decision based on those negative feelings.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-03-07, 07:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Except the whole "Use the Force, Luke" thing. His dead mentor, encouraging him on from beyond the grave, to kill countless people, with the aid of the Force.
and yes, that's why the Force is an abysmal fictional concept.
Except Anakin Skywalker's redemption - and what restored him to the Force - is entirely based on killing the man who was torturing his son in front of him out of sheer anger. Being angry at injustice and taking up arms is the exact thing the Rebellion is built upon, it's the thing the heroes are doing and justifiably so.
There is a definite difference between accidentally killing your wife in a fit of anger and killing a tyrant responsible for the deaths and enslavement of countless sentient beings of whom you've been engaged in a brutal civil way for most of your adult life, and that I have to make that argument is why the Force is an abysmal fictional concept.Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2021-03-07 at 07:33 PM.
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2021-03-07, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-07, 07:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Luke wasnt trying to kill the people on the Death Star, specifically. He just wanted to stop it from destroying Yavin and, by extension, other worlds.
Anakin was (nominally) acting out of love in that scene, not hatred. Anakin loved his family, or at least the idea of his family, and you can see as far back as ESB that he is going very far out of his way to avoid doing things that would deprive him of that family, before he even actually meets Luke.“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2021-03-07, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
Obi-Wan also tells Luke to 'let go.' This is important, because the ultimate goal is transcendence, of transitioning from a being of flesh and blood to a 'luminous' state where one serves is in union with the light side. Luke destroying the Death Star involves pinging up against this state for a very brief moment.
Yes, around a million people die (the numbers from the various sources on how many people were on the Death Star vary, but all are between 1 and 2 million in total), but at the same time the moon of Yavin IV, representing an entire biosphere, is spared. Also, the DS-I battle station is clearly a military target and it's destruction is, by any understanding of military law, perfectly justified. In fact, it's simply a real world military maneuver scaled up - I'm going to avoid direct historical parallels because of forum rules and just suggest that the best (probably only it's not actually a good movie) reason to watch 2019's Midway is to note the countless Star Wars parallels.
Except Anakin Skywalker's redemption - and what restored him to the Force - is entirely based on killing the man who was torturing his son in front of him out of sheer anger. Being angry at injustice and taking up arms is the exact thing the Rebellion is built upon, it's the thing the heroes are doing and justifiably so.
*Ninja'd by Keltest
There is a definite difference between accidentally killing your wife in a fit of anger and killing a tyrant responsible for the deaths and enslavement of countless sentient beings of whom you've been engaged in a brutal civil way for most of your adult life, and that I have to make that argument is why the Force is an abysmal fictional concept.
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2021-03-08, 04:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Mandalorian Season 2
I think that there are two pretty different versions of the Force.
The Force in the OT, before the retcons in the prequel trilogy, is more akin to a spiritual illumination than a superpower. The "force powers" that we see are not like D&D spells in a finite list that the Jedi train to use, but are a side effect of the Jedi having achieved this state of being one with the Force.
The Force in the prequel trilogy and aftterwards became something like a superpower that, for in-universe reasons, was tied to a specific culture. The main role of the Force becomes being an advantage to using violence, and having access to a set of predetermined Jedi tricks.
When thinking about the final confrontation in the OT (let's remember that this is before any of the content revealed---or retconned---in the prequel trilogy), it's normal that some things clash, as it's the OT approach to the Force being examined with a mental framework of the PT approach. That's what makes Yoda in the prequel trilogy so utterly jarring. I think that the character of Li Mu Bai in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is the closest that we've seen to an OT-style Jedi in their prime.
In The Return of the Jedi, there is the paradox of the pacifist approach of the Jedi, and the violence-focused approached of those Jedi that have been corrupted by the Dark Side. Luke realizes that he cannot out-Dark Side either Darth Vader or the Emperor without falling to the Dark Side himself. He can only vanquish the Dark Side by using his serenity and reassurance in the Force, and this is when he starts to win. He is able to bring his father back from the Dark Side and he, in turn, is able to face and defeat the power that corrupted him to begin with---the Emperor.
The Last Jedi tried to shift the view of the Force back to the original OT approach, I think. With a more spiritual and phylosophical Force. We see Luke winning a fight by again refusing to face the Dark Side with violence. I wouldn't have minded if that line had been followed by future installments, I find it way more interesting than the Jedi being somewhat mystical X-Men with a set of same-y psychic powers.Last edited by Clertar; 2021-03-08 at 04:22 AM.
"Like the old proverb says, if one sees something not right, one must draw out his sword to intervene"