OOTS #1276 - The Discussion Thread

[Keltest]

Regardless of whether the Giant shows every bit of shopping nuance, I think its safe to say that Belkar casting spells when he previously could not would be a significant enough change that he would feel the need to highlight how and why that has happened.

[Blue Dragon]

Hindsight is 20/20? No doubt when MitD's creature type is revealed, someone will say it's been obvious for a long time.



Unlike us, Roy doesn't get two weeks of free time to analyze everything between strips

It has been some time since I solved the MitD's conundrum, though.

[Provengreil]

It works for 'why it's working now' but not "Julia's" explanation that she will 'fix it later'. It's a blatant handwave he overlooked because he actually isn't interested in the theory beyond it's tactical, immediate usage.

I thought the line was perfectly believable, that's exactly how teenagers act on school projects, and is also perfectly in keeping with a rank amateur who thinks they've got something huge but is ignoring a snag that experts will know is the fatal flaw. You see the same thing in students attending programming courses all the time.

[LuPuWei]

Ah, I've missed that crotchety old buzzard...

[Laserlight]

It has been some time since I solved the MitD's conundrum, though.

I've been assuming MitD = The Dark One

[Blue Dragon]

I've been assuming MitD = The Dark One

When he talked about his father became clear to me¹ that he is a spawn of the Snarl.

¹ through idiosyncrasy

[Askthepizzaguy]

Speak with animals is a 1st level Ranger spell.

It has been established that Belkar's wisdom is dumped down so far he doesn't get his Ranger spells.

He can cast spells with Owl's Wisdom... but I guess he needs a scroll. I don't know how it works.

Maybe they're pulling out all the stops for the fight with Xykon and figure if they could buff Beskar and allow him to heal, then he could also cast speak with animals just because he loves Bloodfeast so much, even though it might not seem like it has battle utility, it is something he does all the time anyway and might want Bloodfeast to speak back.

They did learn he could cast spells wayyyy back in the day with Owl's Wisdom, a spell V knows.

[Askthepizzaguy]

New Theory!

Roy walks in and tells Serini, "I was just having a chat with my dead father. What? You can have a beholder for your child, but I can't have a Hamlet Complex?"

Two quatloos say he uses those exact words, ten says he'll say something along those lines. (And, yes, I know I already owe thirty quatloos I don't have, but I'm good for it.)

I wouldn't put it past the author or the character.

I think this was set up in advance that Roy wasn't interested in speaking to him, so I think Roy is supposed to not know it is Eugene here, otherwise he'd just point it out.

So I think your idea is plausible, and yet probably not true because of that indicator from Roy.

[Askthepizzaguy]

That's a really solid strip. You can also feel that Eugene is really, really grudging proud of Roy but would never ever admit it.

If there is character development as in, Roy proving to Eugene that he's as capable as Eugene... as opposed to suddenly being a kinder person, then I would point to that shock at Roy's capabilities and strategic mindset, as well as his increased level of hinted apologies throughout this conversation.

He has a lot of pride, but as Julia, he can just say the apology without worrying about his pride being wounded. So he says as Julia how sorry their father probably is.

That's not a line that occurs to him to say from Julia's point of view unless it's actually true from his own point of view.

So Eugene apologized and was also truthfully impressed by Roy here.

Maybe he won't ever stop being kind of a rotten dad, but those aren't nothing.

His character arc probably doesn't end as nice dad. He's still a jerk. But he's a jerk that realizes he's been a jerk and that his son is a better man than he is.

Which is a realistic arc even for a heel like Eugene.

Not saying that arc has completed or is the only explanation, but yeah. That's plausible and I would weigh in as it's likely to be the case. My two cents.

[Kish]

I've been assuming MitD = The Dark One

When he talked about his father became clear to me¹ that he is a spawn of the Snarl.

¹ through idiosyncrasy

Also Redcloak's niece.

[drazen]

Roy had a few minutes to pick up inconsistencies on the fly during an oral conversation, on his own. We had dozens of people going over the same few written lines over and over again for like a month, and we still couldn't reach a consensus.

I don't think it's very puzzling.

I have two issues with this.

One, the sheer number of clues vastly outnumbered anything Durkula slipped up on, which was basically two times he slipped up on his accent, and Roy might have been unconscious for the first one in the desert. But I can overlook most of them as an intensity of the moment kind of thing.

Two, and this gave away the farm to me immediately without any days-long analysis, Julia is acting wildly out of character in 1274 when arguing about "What if you're wrong?" Their sibling relationship is sarcastic dismissiveness, not intense argument. Julia is True Neutral and aloof, frankly that she is showing interest in helping at all is bizarre, and that she's that intense about it when nothing about her personality suggests she ever would be is even stranger.

I don't think he should suspect Eugene, but his "sister" is acting unusual and Roy has constantly had forces try to stymie him at every turn. He should at least be suspicious. I didn't originally think "Eugene" before reading the forums; I actually thought "that's the IFCC vessel," although Roy would not know that specifically. However, Durkon still has a second Sending left today; he could easily confirm that this is Julia with that and the reply. C'mon, Roy, you live in a world of magic, everything's suspect, think for five seconds, you're supposed to be the fighter with some brains. It is frustrating because I liked Roy a lot as a character, right up until suddenly he keeps getting fooled all the time in the final two books.

......

Also, I have long predicted - since the very first North Pole strip with the statue - that Kraagor's Tomb has NO visible entrance and the statue is a marker. But entering will involve short-range teleporting through several dozen feet of solid rock (and maybe some lead sheeting?), and there's no way to know it's there unless either (a) you already know or (b) you're an enraged Xykon who Meteor Swarms the statue (and thus the entrance below it) in a fit of pique when the regular dungeons turn out to be nothing-burgers.

[Tubercular Ox]

I speculated before this isn't Eugine manifesting, it's him casting an illusion spell.

I'm really digging Julia being an illusion and therefore visible to Bloodfeast, but now we have Eugene changing his illusion of Julia into an illusion of himself with the same color aura as when he's an oathspirit.

A part of me realizes this is a trivial detail that Rich will either explain or choose not to explain, but it's hard to resist thinking about.

It is interesting though why the Giant brings Eugene back into the story. And I don't think he will be an ally. I'm still on team "Eugene will work with the IFCC because all he cares about is destroying the Lich and maybe they can help there to further their plans" (if this team exists, if not, who wants to be captian?) I don't know 'how' exactly but that's my pitch.

OMG, can we have a "Eugene is working with Sabine" theory, too?

Seriously, though, I'm going to plug Fish's "imminent growth" theory here. Eugene is here to tidy up his part of Roy's story before the end.

His character arc probably doesn't end as nice dad. He's still a jerk. But he's a jerk that realizes he's been a jerk and that his son is a better man than he is.

Which is a realistic arc even for a heel like Eugene.

Not saying that arc has completed or is the only explanation, but yeah. That's plausible and I would weigh in as it's likely to be the case. My two cents.

Totally agree with you. I'm still looking for a short way of saying, "This is where a plot like the one we're seeing would go if it carried forward under its own momentum, but a plot is made of successive impetus so there's always time for a new direction," so we don't have to boilerplate all our predictions like this.

I am loving that the previous conversations are obviously Eugene once you know that it's him. The clues aren't even subtle once you know, but the possibility never occurred to anyone. Or 99%+ I guess, in case anyone did guess it that early.

So IMO this is the best kind of foreshadowing, with the very tippy top being when the audience remembers the clues at the reveal and doesn't have to re-read the story to feel the effect.

Rich spends a whole author's note in one of the books detailing his love of foreshadowing. He doesn't even talk about his own writing very much in that note, just, "We're talking about foreshadowing now." I'm happy he can do so well something he loves so much.

When he talked about his father became clear to me¹ that he is a spawn of the Snarl.

¹ through idiosyncrasy

But can you re-read the story with that as a solution and feel like Rich isn't even being subtle about it?

[JonahFalcon]

#1272: "Just because you're smart doesn't mean you know everything. Even about magic."

It's doubly funny and poignant when it's aimed at Eugene.

[Mindflayer_Inc]

In hindsight, a previous page-ending quip suddenly has a new meaning:

"oh there you are dad, I didn't see you hiding behind my sister's ENTIRE PERSONALITY like that."

I think Roy will figure it out or has already figured it out, thing is, Roy may realize he doesn’t get to be picky about the help he receives but plays along with the scheme as long as he’s getting actual help with the current problem at hand.

I feel like if some readers could figure it out, Roy who knows his sister better than any of us, will figure it out (at least eventually). If he already figured it out it means Roy is playing Eugene and it would feel good to get one over on him.

[Devils_Advocate]

So Good can't be cynical then?

Depends on what you mean by "cynical". Good isn't selfish, so for any value of "cynical" that inherently includes selfishness, yeah, it can't.

Someone who acts good when it serves his own selfish purposes and evil when it serves his own selfish purposes isn't flipping back and forth between good and evil. That's not how alignment works. It's a general thing, not what you're doing right now.

In principle, circumstances can get someone to act good indefinitely without changing alignment, because alignment is part of one's inner nature, not one's outer behavior. In practice, internal character traits and patterns of behavior are a two-way street.

- Doin' good- sometimes even just seein' other people do good- feels good. Tha feelin' gets ta ye ev'ntually.

She was certainly a terrible example of LG, in fact so bad that she Fell, but I don't think that was so much for her failing to be Lawful as failing to be Good.

Eh, I see Miko's fall itself as her more clearly failing the Lawful part of her alignment.

Did Shojo deserve to be bisected less than everyone Miko has ever killed already without issue? Maybe.

Did Miko kill her own superior based on nothing but her own judgement? Definitely.

She didn't have the authority to appoint herself judge, jury, and executioner. And Hinjo was right there telling her that, hey, that's actually a super bad idea.

Miko independently decided that the law and all of her long-standing commitments and obligations didn't matter and she was just gonna do what she deemed appropriate given the circumstances. That's, like, the definition of a Chaotic act.

Sure, she thought that she was following the will of the gods, but I seriously doubt that even Miko herself would agree that, as a general principle, thinking that you're following the will of the gods justifies murdering whoever you want to murder. She probably didn't recognize her own hypocrisy, but that seems typical of hypocrites, so nothing out of the ordinary there.

The Giant has carefully shown the party acquiring every new magic item they get, sans consumables.

Citation needed. Obviously "We haven't seen them get any items that we haven't seen them get" can't sanely be counted as evidence. Tautologous observation is tautologous.

[Bacon Elemental]

Eh, I see Miko's fall itself as her more clearly failing the Lawful part of her alignment.

Did Shojo deserve to be bisected less than everyone Miko has ever killed already without issue? Maybe.

Did Miko kill her own superior based on nothing but her own judgement? Definitely.

She didn't have the authority to appoint herself judge, jury, and executioner. And Hinjo was right there telling her that, hey, that's actually a super bad idea.

Miko independently decided that the law and all of her long-standing commitments and obligations didn't matter and she was just gonna do what she deemed appropriate given the circumstances. That's, like, the definition of a Chaotic act.

Sure, she thought that she was following the will of the gods, but I seriously doubt that even Miko herself would agree that, as a general principle, thinking that you're following the will of the gods justifies murdering whoever you want to murder. She probably didn't recognize her own hypocrisy, but that seems typical of hypocrites, so nothing out of the ordinary there.


Citation needed. Obviously "We haven't seen them get any items that we haven't seen them get" can't sanely be counted as evidence. Tautologous observation is tautologous.

Counterpoint: One chaotic act is unlikely to instantly shift your alignment, and it's one EVIL act that instantly makes a paladin Fall after all.

Though bisecting your unarmed octogenarian liegelord while he's helpless before you while your junior paladin ally yells to stop because you've deluded yourself for dubious reasons that the man who adopted and brought you up is part of the imaginary conspiracy to aid Xykon you decided must exist for personal reasons... is definitely hitting both qualifications so I guess its a moot debate.


also damn, miko's law.

[Devils_Advocate]

Counterpoint: One chaotic act is unlikely to instantly shift your alignment, and it's one EVIL act that instantly makes a paladin Fall after all.

I didn't mean to imply that being Chaotic or even strongly Chaotic ipso facto makes an act a violation of a paladin's code of conduct nor that it removes Lawful alignment. Just that this particular flagrant code of conduct violation strikes me as more blatantly Chaotic than blatantly Evil.

Hmm, let me put it this way. I think that Miko killing Shojo was

1. very clearly a violation of her paladin oaths, and more clearly that than it was either Chaotic or Evil,
2. still quite clearly Chaotic, and more clearly Chaotic than Evil, and
3. of the three, least clearly Evil.

Point 3 because I'm taking her beliefs and intentions into account. While it's hard to reconcile Good alignment with recklessness, it's also hard to define recklessness objectively, and in any case non-Good does not equal Evil, what with Neutral also being a thing. It's way harder to reconcile Lawful alignment with probably violating dozens of specific officially-mandated standards of behavior you've sworn to obey, except in a "Characters can act against their alignments without changing alignment" sort of way.

But discussing exactly why Miko Fell is basically nitpicking. So long as we can all agree that she should have Fallen, that's not a grey area. (And anyone convinced that she shouldn't have has some very, uh, interesting ideas about the standards of behavior for paladins.)

[grandpheonix]

There's gotta be at least 19 people yelling into the screen "I told you so!"

Nice job showing this spell will last longer than a normal summon, considering the source of confirmation.

[ben-zayb]

I'm joining the "Roy knew all along" camp, if only because Roy has well-rounded enough mental stats to feign ignorance and to see through Eugene's disguise and slip-ups.

[Provengreil]

Citation needed. Obviously "We haven't seen them get any items that we haven't seen them get" can't sanely be counted as evidence. Tautologous observation is tautologous.

Point me to a single use of a magic item by the Order of the Stick in the last 1000 strips where the item is of narrative importance and wasn't shown being acquired.

[TRH]

I don't think Roy knows, because if he did he'd then want to know why Eugene is pulling this charade. That's a long way from obvious for us, much less Roy, so I can't imagine he's figured that much out on his own without saying anything yet.

[Peelee]

Point me to a single use of a magic item by the Order of the Stick in the last 1000 strips where the item is of narrative importance and wasn't shown being acquired.

Like the unspecified item of Feather Fall that saved Belkar's life, which was not shown being acquired until after it was used for aforementioned purpose?

I agree with you that it is highly unlikely and improbable that Belkar obtained a Wisdom increasing item, but it's not impossible.

[toapat]

We can correctly predict it was Eugene based on a few verbal clues, but MitD is still a mystery?

well, it helps that we know theres absolutely at least one characteristic of the MitD that we know of which is wrong for the book instance of the lore entry.

[tanonx]

As far as timing goes, this would be a perfect opportunity to reveal that Belkar has invested in understanding his companions... the animal ones, at least, which as we all know are the ones that really matter.

Especially if Roy worked it out on his own, using that last bit of conversation as a test. Eugene is Lawful Awful, and Lawful types in this world consistently fail to grasp how shell games work. Julia, on the other hand, operating under the established rules for Teenage Alignment Reversal, is being Chaotic, and would understand shell games. Roy, probably picking up on both the slip-ups in factual information and the slip-ups in veiled apologies and regret, will have everything he needs to assess the situation without talking to a lizard about it.

So, since it's not actually a plot-solving revelation at this stage, it's a fine set-up.

On the topic of Eugene and whether he's developed as an individual or not... well, I think it's not so black-and-white here. He figures he's going behind Roy's back, but he's not trying to browbeat him into agreement, and he shows a desire to respect some of Roy's boundaries when they've been clearly set, though he needs to be walloped over the head with them in order to notice. But that's the thing: deciding you want to be a better person doesn't make you any better at actually being one. It would be kind of weird if a few weeks of quiet contemplation completely broke all the lifelong habits that led to this point.

I think we could make a pretty good argument that he's closer to good than people usually assume, though, if we interpret things in the right light. Say, the various admissions of guilt for letting the Blood Oath get to this point, and that last line of his. Remember his previous appearance, where he was totally content to leave Roy to it because, since the world was ending either way, it wasn't his problem? There's some speculation that he's learned something to change that... but what if he's just come around to realize that it's his fault things have gotten this far, and he's obligated to try and do something about it? That the "something" is deceiving Roy in order to offer tactical advice, because it's more likely to work than trying to patch things up and get Roy to listen to him the normal way... still very obviously the wrong way to do things. But it's the toolset the old man's used to.

Of course, none of that rules out that Eugene is still up to his old tricks of self-centered manipulation. It's just considering that there's more to him as a character than that, and potential for another explanation.

Mostly, I'm just glad all these strips of discussions weren't simply meanderings on the situation at hand. That would've been rough.

[Jasdoif]

Point me to a single use of a magic item by the Order of the Stick in the last 1000 strips where the item is of narrative importance and wasn't shown being acquired.

Like the unspecified item of Feather Fall that saved Belkar's life, s which was not shown being acquired until after it was used for aforementioned purpose?

I agree with you the it is highly unlikely and improbable that Belkar obtained a Wisdom increasing item, but it's not impossible.

If we're going down this route...this type of subject has come up before, regarding #806.

Well, would you look at that. Another conveniently placed deus ex machina to balance the odds in favour of the bad guys.
How new and exciting.

Don't be utterly ridiculous. The fact that Nale owns a relatively inexpensive magic item is not even remotely surprising or unexpected, given his level, wealth, and the fact that last time we saw him, he said he was going to shop for magic items. (Second to last panel.)

How exactly do you expect me to foreshadow each and every magic item that they have? Did you want me to dedicate an entire strip to Nale standing around saying, "Look at my new wand!"?

Come on. Surprises are not Deus (or Diabolous) Ex Machinas, they're surprises. Nothing more or less. If you want to know every little thing that is going to happen before it happens, go read another comic.

Here, the relevant strip would be #970, and the following strip even talks about the narrative usefulness of not revealing what all the wands are. And Belkar (or Elan) would be able to use a wand of speak with animals without a problem, as wands are much more accommodating than scrolls are.


I'd also question the narrative importance of the feather-falling. Belkar was still absent for almost the entirety of the Godsmoot, so it's not too different than if Belkar was simply absent in the first place; the item allowed for characterization and comedy, but had little real impact on the sequence of events...which is what you'd criticize a tool for. Similarly, I'm unconvinced that Roy knowing for certain Eugene is masquerading as Julia really affects Roy's or Eugene's options. Roy might get the idea to have Vaarsuvius contact Julia directly, maybe; but that seems unlikely to go anywhere unless Roy has changed his feelings about dumping this on her and/or thinks she has the ability to meaningfully contribute.

[Tubercular Ox]

I'd also question the narrative importance of the feather-falling. Belkar was still absent for almost the entirety of the Godsmoot, so it's not too different than if Belkar was simply absent in the first place; the item allowed for characterization and comedy, but had little real impact on the sequence of events...which is what you'd criticize a tool for. Similarly, I'm unconvinced that Roy knowing for certain Eugene is masquerading as Julia really affects Roy's or Eugene's options. Roy might get the idea to have Vaarsuvius contact Julia directly, maybe; but that seems unlikely to go anywhere unless Roy has changed his feelings about dumping this on her and/or thinks she has the ability to meaningfully contribute.

In defense of Belkar having a feather fall item, he was the one character singled out as being weirdly clever with this adventuring stuff and doing things on his own without telling others. I do not want to be responsible for supporting the Bloodfeast Tells All argument, but it's going to end up there, isn't it?

How about this? What if Eugene is in a position to urge Bloodfeast to do something useful in the future? Won't it have been wonderful to have established before that point that Bloodfeast can see Eugene?

[No good @ names]

Regardless of whether the Giant shows every bit of shopping nuance, I think its safe to say that Belkar casting spells when he previously could not would be a significant enough change that he would feel the need to highlight how and why that has happened.

I was wondering if there was thread on “throw-away jokes that would completely change the plot if they weren’t thrown away”. Owl’s Wisdom Belkar being the one that jumps to mind.

Edit:Comic 58 for reference

[Ruck]

I don't think being self absorbed to the point of ignoring everyone else's needs and desires is mutually exclusive with the concept of a lawful alignment. *points at Miko*

He's following a clear and consistent code this entire time, it just happens to be one wherein he is a selfish jerk from the perspective of everyone else.

I don't think Miko is much of an example of the concept of a Lawful alignment.

Well, she is, and she isn't.

I went back and re-read this, and I don't actually know what my point was here. But specific to making a point re: Eugene... before her break from reality, Miko was someone who far more was committed to rules and order than Eugene, whether that's enforcing them as a paladin (even to the point of mattress tags) or believing strongly in hierarchy and the Sapphire Guard's place on top of it ("You are all my prisoners, so you must all obey my orders").

I don't think Eugene follows a code. "Whatever I want to do to fulfill my own needs and desires" doesn't count as a "rigid internal code." And he certainly doesn't follow any external code and is not "someone for whom the idea of responsibility is central": He abandoned his Blood Oath; he neglects his kids in favor of magical research (or just to drink at a bar)... Every time we've seen him take on a serious, even lifelong (or more) responsibility, he eventually abandons it to go back to doing the only thing he cares about. I don't see any way that pattern can be interpreted as Lawful.

She was certainly a terrible example of LG, in fact so bad that she Fell, but I don't think that was so much for her failing to be Lawful as failing to be Good.

I think it's both.

[Hopeless]

Wouldn't Redcloak's allies be able to detect Eugene?

[Ruck]

Wouldn't Redcloak's allies be able to detect Eugene?

Why's that?