MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable

[Errorname]

It sounds like you think Rich wrote this scene to exclude monsters like the Potted Plant. That’s not a practical way to write the Monster in the Dark. It implies that Rich is keeping a list of not excluded monsters, to know when he’s done writing clues. This is fruitless, because he can never be sure that there isn't a monster not on his list that he’s failing to exclude. And Rich has told us he never worries about that.

A far more efficient way to write clues, consistent with Rich’s comment that it is not a guessing game and part of the story, is to look at the stat block of the Monster in the Dark, let it inspire stories, and then work those stories into the larger plot. So Rich has the Hunting Horror, sees Swallow Whole and Vomit, and imagines a story where it swallows Redcloak whole and spits out the amulet.

You make it sound like I think that scene was written with a mind to excluding any monsters at all. I think the Monster being ordered to devour Redcloak exists because it is part of the story and is important for the characters, and not with much concern to hinting at the monsters identity. Again, intake and expell are such basic biological functions that it doesn't even exclude all potted plants, and the main diagnostic trait we can glean is that the monster is big enough that eating Redcloak whole is feasible.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

You make it sound like I think that scene was written with a mind to excluding any monsters at all. I think the Monster being ordered to devour Redcloak exists because it is part of the story and is important for the characters, and not with much concern to hinting at the monsters identity. Again, intake and expell are such basic biological functions that it doesn't even exclude all potted plants, and the main diagnostic trait we can glean is that the monster is big enough that eating Redcloak whole is feasible.

We know MitD has teeth and a tongue (he leaves teeth markings in tacos, he cut his tongue with a letter). That does exclude some creatures, like plants and gelatinous cubes. But it does not exclude the potted plant, because the potted plant is, definitionally, templated to hell and back, and along the way gains several heads, including, IIRC, dragon, goat, and werewolf. And if it didn't, well, it's just one more template away from being able to do so. That's quite literally what the potted plant illustrates: that there is no clue you can't just brush off the table by adding templates on top of a given base.

I'm also going to point out, just because it is fresh in my mind, that the Worm that Walks has an ability to engulf and that I'd still can perfectly believe is what Xykon meant for MitD to do if MitD was one.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

So I will toss in my guess as to what the MitD is: a titan. Specifically an earlier edition titan.

Your guess is noted.

Also, I'd JUST updated the Page1 post so I'll be briefly editing that.

Edit - Hmm. Just realized your vote puts the Titan at a score of 2.0, but I'm a bit busy atm. If I get a chance I may include it.

Edit2 - Also, I know organizing the guesses alphabetically by name would make it more convenient to sort, but after some thought I've decided I enjoy seeing them in this order and I'd prefer to keep it as it is.

[Somniloquist]

Lately I've been rewatching the first couple seasons of the Muppet Show, and I came across this - compelling evidence that the Monster is the Muppetification of Zero Mostel's existential dread! A hulking, ugly, highly dangerous beast that can banish other beings with a thought, easily explaining the Escape.

(This is a joke, but I do think it's worth it to look for new candidates in more whimsical places that you wouldn't normally associate with D&D.)

[Tzardok]

They are 25 feet tall, have no explanation for the escape and while they can become smaller and still wield a gargantuan sized hammer, for some bizarre reason ("A titan can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid. The titan retains its oversized weapon special attack regardless of form." -> "A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty.") in its smaller size

Grey Wolf

On one hand, I would argue that the intent is that a titan's warhammer is always a size larger than the titan itself. On the other hand, I find the image of a gnome-sized titan flinging around a warhammer sixteen-times larger than themselves simply awesome.

[Metastachydium]

Rich has a love for giants. They are in his comic, materials he has written for WotC, and his online namesake is Giant. Titans are the greatest of the giants.

Outsiders, rather than Giants, technically, which is very fitting for reasons that will not be stated here.

There is some text in the manuals that mentions an even more mysterious legend of "greater" titans who are even closer to godliness, capable of more fantastic feats.

Those reside in the ELH (as well as Carceri, apparently, but I digress).

This next one might be a stretch, but there could be a narrative reason for making MitD a titan of the destroyed pantheon. If he contains some amount of the previous pantheons aura/ color, he could be used in lieu of the Dark One, to strengthen the gates/ world prison, if the Dark One/ redcloak cannot be convinced to cooperate. There could even be a dramatic sacrifice of a beloved misunderstood character.

…
Someone please restrain me. I'm not pretty when ballistic.

That does exclude some creatures, like plants

(Some Plants, such as the Volodnis^UE totally have those!)

But it does not exclude the potted plant, because the potted plant is, definitionally, templated to hell and back, and along the way gains several heads, including, IIRC, dragon, goat, and werewolf.

A goat?! That can't be right! (Unless it is used for eating people like a Cowplant. (I like Cowplants.))

And if it didn't, well, it's just one more template away from being able to do so. That's quite literally what the potted plant illustrates: that there is no clue you can't just brush off the table by adding templates on top of a given base.

The potted plant is reasonable for a reason! Go potted plant!

[Errorname]

That's quite literally what the potted plant illustrates: that there is no clue you can't just brush off the table by adding templates on top of a given base.

That's a useful example then. The thing I was talking about were literal real world potted plants to emphasize how utterly basic the functions involved are, although for the record there's no carnivorous plant I'm aware of that can expell consumed material in anything but the broadest definition of the term, I thought there was a mechanism for it in pitcher plants but I seem to be mistaken.

It's still an extremely basic function that basically anything that even sort of qualifies as an animal can do, so I stand by my broader point.

(Some Plants, such as the Volodnis^UE totally have those!)

Also includes a lot of fantasy carnivorous plants like Audrey II or a Piranha Plant.

[Metastachydium]

for the record there's no carnivorous plant I'm aware of that can expell consumed material in anything but the broadest definition of the term, I thought there was a mechanism for it in pitcher plants but I seem to be mistaken.

Planties, regardless of diet, can guttate, however, which… Yes, is basically sweating, but that's a very strict sense "expulsion of consumed material" if you aks me.

Also includes a lot of fantasy carnivorous plants like Audrey II or a Piranha Plant.

As well as the aforementioned Cowplant, yes, which hunts with its tongue.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Also, I know organizing the guesses alphabetically by name would make it more convenient to sort, but after some thought I've decided I enjoy seeing them in this order and I'd prefer to keep it as it is.

We could turn it into an actual table, not unlike the one I use for voting, that allows for ordering just by clicking the headers. We can have name, date, gues 1, guess 2, guess 3, maybe even intermediary columns to have = and >.

I'm willing to give a try at converting the current list into one, if you can then take over from there.

It's still an extremely basic function that basically anything that even sort of qualifies as an animal can do, so I stand by my broader point.

And to be even more clear, I wasn't disagreeing with it, just providing detail. To me what gelatinous cube fails to match is the tongue/teeth, not the "Xykon can't order it to devour RC". I totally would see Xykon sick'ing a cube onto a target with a "devour him, my mighty minion. Oh, and spit out the bones, I could use a new skeleton to clean around here".

GW

[Errorname]

And to be even more clear, I wasn't disagreeing with it, just providing detail.

For the record, it's not so much that you were disagreeing as I wanted to correct a statement that was basically wrong while still reinforcing my broader point

[Precure]

this is either a guessing game, in which case making sure a shapeshifter never engages in shapeshifting, lest it be recognized as a shapeshifter is in poor form, insofar as it is essentially trolling

Actually it makes very much sense for MitD's true identity to be a sorta trollish creature. When Rich decided on MitD identity, the comic was much more comedy heavy and in the end it's reveal is probably gonna be a joke. In fact, that's why Slaad was such a popular candidate, because a black slaad would look just like MitD himself, making the reveal felt pointless.

Edit2 - Also, I know organizing the guesses alphabetically by name would make it more convenient to sort, but after some thought I've decided I enjoy seeing them in this order and I'd prefer to keep it as it is.

As you wish. Message me if you change your mind.

[Kish]

In fact, that's why Slaad was such a popular candidate, because a black slaad would look just like MitD himself, making the reveal felt pointless.

That is one very minor reason some people liked the Slaad idea.

[Crusher]

We could turn it into an actual table, not unlike the one I use for voting, that allows for ordering just by clicking the headers. We can have name, date, gues 1, guess 2, guess 3, maybe even intermediary columns to have = and >.

I'm willing to give a try at converting the current list into one, if you can then take over from there.

If you like, though I may or may not use it. Once I find a comfortable spot I have a difficult time forcing myself to change. I went all of high school and college refusing to use a calculator because I didn't feel like it, though I did eventually get a computer.

I tolerate computers alright now, but I honestly still dislike calculators. Annoying little button-y things. Its like cheating.

[Tubercular Ox]

I have every confidence that even after the reveal, this thread will continue on, with people discussing which pieces of evidence from the comic really make it seem like it should have been something else, continuing to suggest possibilities that are surely a better fit than whatever Rich show us he's been thinking all this time, and probably even why it was bad writing on Rich's part to have scene X play out as it did. (Plus plenty of gloating that they had it right, of course, assuming that at least some folks here have made the right guess). While the conversation may eventually fall off over time, I guarantee that the initial response will not be for everyone to unanimously agree that it was obvious in retrospect, and quickly come to accept the answer.

Rich has a method for keeping all his other characters to the level of rules accuracy displayed in the comic. The Protean's performance in Start of Darkness is an extreme outlier for this method, and I think you can predict future arguments based on what's gone before.

Tsukiko stepped outside her class once, and it was believed to be a mistake first, foreshadowing second, and Rich creating intentional ambiguity not at all.

One reason people couldn't agree on Tarquin as a swordsage is because a lot of people felt that fitting a few big scenes wasn't enough, and that even a small number of minor mistakes precluded the idea.

Sunny.

I don't understand why Rich would go out of his way to write the Monster in the Dark with a different process than all his other characters, just to reap the reward of invoking all these arguments, yours and mine both, on the most scrutinized character in the story.

[Crusher]

Tsukiko stepped outside her class once, and it was believed to be a mistake first, foreshadowing second, and Rich creating intentional ambiguity not at all.

It was only clear it wasn't intentional ambiguity *once we saw her whole arc*.

Until he reaches the end, we don't know what kind of story he's telling for each character. We haven't reached the end of MitD's arc yet, making it a little premature to assume we know where he's going and therefore how he needs to structure the character's story.

[Tubercular Ox]

It was only clear it wasn't intentional ambiguity *once we saw her whole arc*.

Until he reaches the end, we don't know what kind of story he's telling for each character. We haven't reached the end of MitD's arc yet, making it a little premature to assume we know where he's going and therefore how he needs to structure the character's story.

I can make a list of things that need to be addressed about the Protean to make this prophetic, but a lot of them would have to happen in an extremely hefty denouement, or (before the reveal) a MitD-centered story arc.

If Protean fans turn away from the idea of there being no or minimal denouement, it becomes possible.

[Metastachydium]

Actually it makes very much sense for MitD's true identity to be a sorta trollish creature. When Rich decided on MitD identity, the comic was much more comedy heavy and in the end it's reveal is probably gonna be a joke. In fact, that's why Slaad was such a popular candidate, because a black slaad would look just like MitD himself, making the reveal felt pointless.

That's actually pretty funny, and unlike Kish, I wasn't there to know it's not the case, but even then… Y'see, the thing about Slaadi is that they fit in so many ways that there is no need for extra joke value, albeit it would certainly not hurt. At any rate, MitD's species might have been picked back in DCF, but the comic grew way past what it used to be back then, in terms of scope, style and most pertienetly, tone. I'm going to treat the notion that something hyped up to be so important will be some manner of jarring DCF-style joke tossed in with a healthy does of skepticism.

If Protean fans turn away from the idea of there being no or minimal denouement, it becomes possible.

(On a somewhat unrelated note, the length of any denouement featuring Revealed!MitD is an interesting little thing to speculate about from a visual/artistic point of view as well. How much drawing a Protean is too much drawing a Protean in its full shapeshifting glory? This is not a major thing by any means, and like I said it's highly speculative, but it popped into my mind seeing that comment and I thought I might as well share now that I'm here.)

[Errorname]

Rich has a method for keeping all his other characters to the level of rules accuracy displayed in the comic. The Protean's performance in Start of Darkness is an extreme outlier for this method, and I think you can predict future arguments based on what's gone before.

I am not actually convinced the Protean is any more of an extreme outlier than any other potential candidate, most of your objections to the Start of Darkness scenes are kind of weak.

[Ruck]

I'm just going to hit what I think is the most salient point here, or at least the one I'm most interested in addressing:

Like I said, it's not even the eyes. It's the "full control over the powers even if that takes deliberate actions when convenient, "no such thing when that's not convenient" (Circus scene), and "has no idea what's even ever going on because convenient". I find that a jumbled mess raising more questions than it solves.

I think the divide here is that you see it more as all-or-nothing-- either he is aware of everything he can do or nothing he can do. Whereas I have a much easier time accepting that maybe he knows how to hold a face (or limbs, i.e. the stomp scene) without knowing he can draw on creatures and powers much more vast and greater than that.

(And, of course, there are at least three possible explanations already proposed why MitD would appear that way even if he isn't holding a face in place.)

A far more efficient way to write clues, consistent with Rich’s comment that it is not a guessing game and part of the story, is to look at the stat block of the Monster in the Dark, let it inspire stories, and then work those stories into the larger plot.

See, I disagree here. I don't think the story is based in the stat block. I think it's based in the story.

So Rich has the Hunting Horror, sees Swallow Whole and Vomit, and imagines a story where it swallows Redcloak whole and spits out the amulet.

But if Rich has the Protean, he has to look straight at Destabilize Form, decide the guessing game is more important than the story, and write a clue to exclude Potted Plants that people will argue over after the reveal.

Whereas I see, Rich wants to tell a story about a powerful creature expected to be a villain who has to find the power to change, and then picks the Protean because it is the powerful creature that most symbolizes the power to change.

Anyway, my position is already well laid-out, and in sum:

• The Protean fits better than any other monster in the FBS.
• Unlike the other monsters in the FBS, the drawbacks of the Protean are behavior that is unusual or unexpected, not impossible or should work entirely differently.
• There are enough plausible explanations for that unusual behavior that I am comfortable with accepting them, given how well the Protean fits everything else.
• The Protean makes the most storytelling sense, and this is a story; I don't think any of the other FBS monsters really have a good reason to be chosen for the story being told.

---

Had never heard that variation, but it is clearly the source for the one I had, which I've tracked to Donald Runsfield('s speechwriters). Makes sense that it's a gambling-related source, but if so, I'd imagine there might be even more ancient version going back all the way. Latin probably has a "you take the lots the sacred chickens give you, not throw them overboard" version.

GW

Yeah, you're thinking of "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want."

[Tubercular Ox]

See, I disagree here. I don't think the story is based in the stat block. I think it's based in the story.

This is a repackaged Stormwind Fallacy, believing that it is impossible to create great characters by looking at the statblock you want them to have.

Every time we wonder what its alignment is or will be, it fits a Hunting Horror, because a Hunting Horror doesn’t have a printed alignment that Rich can portray or contradict.

Every time it is confused by the people around it, or the people around it are confused by it, it fits a Hunting Horror, because it’s a creature from the d20 CoC equivalent of the Far Realms and this is what is supposed to happen.

Every time it accepts the authority of others with little to no introspection, it fits a Hunting Horror, because the Hunting Horror is written to accept the authority of people weaker than it.

Even when O-Chul orders it to think for itself, it fits a Hunting Horror, because it is still accepting his authority.

And every time it’s revealed as a child, it fits a Hunting Horror, because the Hunting Horror is a Huge Dragon and Rich needed a Large Dragon.

By comparison, what the Protean brings to the table is an undying hatred of nonshapechanging beings and a quest to find more shapes to shapechange into. Deleting that and inserting a story Ruck wrote after seeing what the goal was shouldn't qualify as fitting.

[Errorname]

By comparison, what the Protean brings to the table is an undying hatred of nonshapechanging beings and a quest to find more shapes to shapechange into.

Of course we should assume that MITD is a typical example of his species in terms of personality, since it definitely hasn't been thoroughly established that his behaviour and attitude is deeply unusual for whatever he's supposed to be.

Deleting that and inserting a story Ruck wrote after seeing what the goal was shouldn't qualify as fitting.

Yeah, the reason the Protean is hands down the dominant candidate for a lot of people is because Ruck was able to look at it and identify a possible story that could be told with it which seemed compelling and plausible. That the Protean supports that story is a massive point in it's favour.

[Keltest]

Of course we should assume that MITD is a typical example of his species in terms of personality, since it definitely hasn't been thoroughly established that his behaviour and attitude is deeply unusual for whatever he's supposed to be.

Have we? I know Xykon wanted him to be a scary monster minion for a while, but I don't think it was ever established if that expectation was because his species was specifically evil or just because he was a powerful minion so of course he has to be dramatic and evil.

[Tubercular Ox]

Have we? I know Xykon wanted him to be a scary monster minion for a while, but I don't think it was ever established if that expectation was because his species was specifically evil or just because he was a powerful minion so of course he has to be dramatic and evil.

Found in a jungle, speaking common. If it's a Hunting Horror, then it's definitely supposed to kill on command, hate the light, and devour sentients... which is how Xykon treats it. He won't let it out of the dark, tries to train it to kill in an intimidating fashion, and keeps trying to feed it kids. So even when the Monster in the Dark doesn't fit a Hunting Horror, Rich is telling us through Xykon's expectations that a Hunting Horror is there.

But maybe it's a clue that Rich is going to completely erase the original monster's personality, I don't know.

[Keltest]

Found in a jungle, speaking common. If it's a Hunting Horror, then it's definitely supposed to kill on command, hate the light, and devour sentients... which is how Xykon treats it. He won't let it out of the dark, tries to train it to kill in an intimidating fashion, and keeps trying to feed it kids. So even when the Monster in the Dark doesn't fit a Hunting Horror, Rich is telling us through Xykon's expectations that a Hunting Horror is there.

But maybe it's a clue that Rich is going to completely erase the original monster's personality, I don't know.

But the MITD doesnt hate the light, isn't at all violent and doesn't devour anything besides regular food.

[Tubercular Ox]

But the MITD doesnt hate the light, isn't at all violent and doesn't devour anything besides regular food.

Yes. When the Monster in the Dark deviates from the Hunting Horror, Rich tells us through Xykon's expectations. Xykon thinks it's a standard Hunting Horror and is frustrated (or whatever instead) when it isn't.

[JNAProductions]

Yes. When the Monster in the Dark deviates from the Hunting Horror, Rich tells us through Xykon's expectations. Xykon thinks it's a standard Hunting Horror and is frustrated (or whatever instead) when it isn't.

So when the Hunting Horror is deviated from, that's a sign of good storytelling.
But when the Protean is deviated from, that's just bad.

Is that right?

[Tubercular Ox]

So when the Hunting Horror is deviated from, that's a sign of good storytelling.
But when the Protean is deviated from, that's just bad.

Is that right?

No, it's always been a matter of scale, which is why I was so whiny about having a standard a page or so ago. This exact point here, where my candidate sins at 1/10th the scale as other candidates, but because we did not negotiate in advance how much sinning is allowed, I'm painted as a hypocrite.

The Hunting Horror as written has four features that can be used to construct nearly the entire personality of the Monster of the Dark.

The Protean cannot be used to justify the Monster in the Dark's personality nearly as well, so people assume its personality doesn't matter at all, and they replace it with one that fits perfectly.

The Hunting Horror contradicts the Monster in the Dark in a few ways, and this is painted as catastrophic, because the belief seems to be that Rich will only completely replace a personality, and not tweak it.

I suggest that Rich can replace part of a personality as easily as an entire personality, and that the less personality replaced, the better the fit.

I have no idea how to grade the Hunting Horror that Xykon wants the Monster in the Dark to be, but maybe it is better to have such a ghost than not to have it. Fitting perfectly would be best of all, which the Hunting Horror comes closer to than the Protean.

[JNAProductions]

No, it's always been a matter of scale, which is why I was so whiny about having a standard a page or so ago. This exact point here, where my candidate sins at 1/10th the scale as other candidates, but because we did not negotiate in advance how much sinning is allowed, I'm painted as a hypocrite.

The Hunting Horror as written has four features that can be used to construct nearly the entire personality of the Monster of the Dark.

The Protean cannot be used to justify the Monster in the Dark's personality nearly as well, so people assume its personality doesn't matter at all, and they replace it with one that fits perfectly, because it was designed after the need was available to measure.

The Hunting Horror contradicts the Monster in the Dark in a few ways, and this is painted as catastrophic, because the belief seems to be that Rich will only completely replace a personality, and not tweak it.

I suggest that Rich can replace part of a personality as easily as an entire personality, and that the less personality replaced, the better the fit.

I have no idea how to grade the Hunting Horror that Xykon wants the Monster in the Dark to be, but maybe it is better to have such a ghost than not to have it. Fitting would be best of all, which the Hunting Horror comes closer to than the Protean.

By your own words...

Found in a jungle, speaking common. If it's a Hunting Horror, then it's definitely supposed to kill on command, hate the light, and devour sentients... which is how Xykon treats it. He won't let it out of the dark, tries to train it to kill in an intimidating fashion, and keeps trying to feed it kids. So even when the Monster in the Dark doesn't fit a Hunting Horror, Rich is telling us through Xykon's expectations that a Hunting Horror is there.

Kill on command.
Hate the light.
Devour sentients.

None of which MitD has done or shown any particular desire to do. In fact, they outright WANT to be in the light.

[Tubercular Ox]

Kill on command.
Hate the light.
Devour sentients.

None of which MitD has done or shown any particular desire to do. In fact, they outright WANT to be in the light.

Hunting Horror
No alignment
Easily confused, easily confuses
Prone to following orders
Kill on Command
Devour sentients
Hate the Light

Protean
undying hatred of all shapechanging beings
seeking new creatures to duplicate
slaying others after copying them

Xykon
Thinks the Monster in the Dark should kill on command
Thinks the Monster in the Dark should devour children
Thinks the Monster in the Dark should never leave the dark

[JNAProductions]

You know, you say no alignment.
I don't think that's accurate-the Horror might not have a LISTED alignment, but its normal actions indicate evil pretty heavily.