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2023-11-29, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
You make it sound like I think that scene was written with a mind to excluding any monsters at all. I think the Monster being ordered to devour Redcloak exists because it is part of the story and is important for the characters, and not with much concern to hinting at the monsters identity. Again, intake and expell are such basic biological functions that it doesn't even exclude all potted plants, and the main diagnostic trait we can glean is that the monster is big enough that eating Redcloak whole is feasible.
Last edited by Errorname; 2023-11-29 at 01:33 PM.
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2023-11-29, 01:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
We know MitD has teeth and a tongue (he leaves teeth markings in tacos, he cut his tongue with a letter). That does exclude some creatures, like plants and gelatinous cubes. But it does not exclude the potted plant, because the potted plant is, definitionally, templated to hell and back, and along the way gains several heads, including, IIRC, dragon, goat, and werewolf. And if it didn't, well, it's just one more template away from being able to do so. That's quite literally what the potted plant illustrates: that there is no clue you can't just brush off the table by adding templates on top of a given base.
I'm also going to point out, just because it is fresh in my mind, that the Worm that Walks has an ability to engulf and that I'd still can perfectly believe is what Xykon meant for MitD to do if MitD was one.
Grey WolfLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2023-11-29 at 01:43 PM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2023-11-29, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Your guess is noted.
Also, I'd JUST updated the Page1 post so I'll be briefly editing that.
Edit - Hmm. Just realized your vote puts the Titan at a score of 2.0, but I'm a bit busy atm. If I get a chance I may include it.
Edit2 - Also, I know organizing the guesses alphabetically by name would make it more convenient to sort, but after some thought I've decided I enjoy seeing them in this order and I'd prefer to keep it as it is.Last edited by Crusher; 2023-11-29 at 01:50 PM.
"You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan
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2023-11-29, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Lately I've been rewatching the first couple seasons of the Muppet Show, and I came across this - compelling evidence that the Monster is the Muppetification of Zero Mostel's existential dread! A hulking, ugly, highly dangerous beast that can banish other beings with a thought, easily explaining the Escape.
(This is a joke, but I do think it's worth it to look for new candidates in more whimsical places that you wouldn't normally associate with D&D.)
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2023-11-29, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
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2023-11-29, 02:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Outsiders, rather than Giants, technically, which is very fitting for reasons that will not be stated here.
There is some text in the manuals that mentions an even more mysterious legend of "greater" titans who are even closer to godliness, capable of more fantastic feats.
This next one might be a stretch, but there could be a narrative reason for making MitD a titan of the destroyed pantheon. If he contains some amount of the previous pantheons aura/ color, he could be used in lieu of the Dark One, to strengthen the gates/ world prison, if the Dark One/ redcloak cannot be convinced to cooperate. There could even be a dramatic sacrifice of a beloved misunderstood character.
Someone please restrain me. I'm not pretty when ballistic.
(Some Plants, such as the VolodnisUE totally have those!)
But it does not exclude the potted plant, because the potted plant is, definitionally, templated to hell and back, and along the way gains several heads, including, IIRC, dragon, goat, and werewolf.
And if it didn't, well, it's just one more template away from being able to do so. That's quite literally what the potted plant illustrates: that there is no clue you can't just brush off the table by adding templates on top of a given base.
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2023-11-29, 02:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
That's a useful example then. The thing I was talking about were literal real world potted plants to emphasize how utterly basic the functions involved are, although for the record there's no carnivorous plant I'm aware of that can expell consumed material in anything but the broadest definition of the term, I thought there was a mechanism for it in pitcher plants but I seem to be mistaken.
It's still an extremely basic function that basically anything that even sort of qualifies as an animal can do, so I stand by my broader point.
Also includes a lot of fantasy carnivorous plants like Audrey II or a Piranha Plant.Last edited by Errorname; 2023-11-29 at 02:07 PM.
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2023-11-29, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Planties, regardless of diet, can guttate, however, which… Yes, is basically sweating, but that's a very strict sense "expulsion of consumed material" if you aks me.
Also includes a lot of fantasy carnivorous plants like Audrey II or a Piranha Plant.Last edited by Metastachydium; 2023-11-29 at 02:09 PM.
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2023-11-29, 02:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
We could turn it into an actual table, not unlike the one I use for voting, that allows for ordering just by clicking the headers. We can have name, date, gues 1, guess 2, guess 3, maybe even intermediary columns to have = and >.
I'm willing to give a try at converting the current list into one, if you can then take over from there.
And to be even more clear, I wasn't disagreeing with it, just providing detail. To me what gelatinous cube fails to match is the tongue/teeth, not the "Xykon can't order it to devour RC". I totally would see Xykon sick'ing a cube onto a target with a "devour him, my mighty minion. Oh, and spit out the bones, I could use a new skeleton to clean around here".
GWLast edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2023-11-29 at 02:13 PM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2023-11-29, 02:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-11-29, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Actually it makes very much sense for MitD's true identity to be a sorta trollish creature. When Rich decided on MitD identity, the comic was much more comedy heavy and in the end it's reveal is probably gonna be a joke. In fact, that's why Slaad was such a popular candidate, because a black slaad would look just like MitD himself, making the reveal felt pointless.
As you wish. Message me if you change your mind.Last edited by Precure; 2023-11-29 at 04:05 PM.
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2023-11-29, 05:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2023-11-30, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
If you like, though I may or may not use it. Once I find a comfortable spot I have a difficult time forcing myself to change. I went all of high school and college refusing to use a calculator because I didn't feel like it, though I did eventually get a computer.
I tolerate computers alright now, but I honestly still dislike calculators. Annoying little button-y things. Its like cheating.Last edited by Crusher; 2023-11-30 at 01:34 AM.
"You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan
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2023-11-30, 09:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Rich has a method for keeping all his other characters to the level of rules accuracy displayed in the comic. The Protean's performance in Start of Darkness is an extreme outlier for this method, and I think you can predict future arguments based on what's gone before.
Tsukiko stepped outside her class once, and it was believed to be a mistake first, foreshadowing second, and Rich creating intentional ambiguity not at all.
One reason people couldn't agree on Tarquin as a swordsage is because a lot of people felt that fitting a few big scenes wasn't enough, and that even a small number of minor mistakes precluded the idea.
Sunny.
I don't understand why Rich would go out of his way to write the Monster in the Dark with a different process than all his other characters, just to reap the reward of invoking all these arguments, yours and mine both, on the most scrutinized character in the story.TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2023-11-30, 10:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
It was only clear it wasn't intentional ambiguity *once we saw her whole arc*.
Until he reaches the end, we don't know what kind of story he's telling for each character. We haven't reached the end of MitD's arc yet, making it a little premature to assume we know where he's going and therefore how he needs to structure the character's story."You are what you do. Choose again and change." - Miles Vorkosigan
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2023-11-30, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
I can make a list of things that need to be addressed about the Protean to make this prophetic, but a lot of them would have to happen in an extremely hefty denouement, or (before the reveal) a MitD-centered story arc.
If Protean fans turn away from the idea of there being no or minimal denouement, it becomes possible.TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2023-11-30, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
That's actually pretty funny, and unlike Kish, I wasn't there to know it's not the case, but even then… Y'see, the thing about Slaadi is that they fit in so many ways that there is no need for extra joke value, albeit it would certainly not hurt. At any rate, MitD's species might have been picked back in DCF, but the comic grew way past what it used to be back then, in terms of scope, style and most pertienetly, tone. I'm going to treat the notion that something hyped up to be so important will be some manner of jarring DCF-style joke tossed in with a healthy does of skepticism.
(On a somewhat unrelated note, the length of any denouement featuring Revealed!MitD is an interesting little thing to speculate about from a visual/artistic point of view as well. How much drawing a Protean is too much drawing a Protean in its full shapeshifting glory? This is not a major thing by any means, and like I said it's highly speculative, but it popped into my mind seeing that comment and I thought I might as well share now that I'm here.)Last edited by Metastachydium; 2023-11-30 at 12:51 PM.
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2023-11-30, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
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2023-11-30, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
I'm just going to hit what I think is the most salient point here, or at least the one I'm most interested in addressing:
I think the divide here is that you see it more as all-or-nothing-- either he is aware of everything he can do or nothing he can do. Whereas I have a much easier time accepting that maybe he knows how to hold a face (or limbs, i.e. the stomp scene) without knowing he can draw on creatures and powers much more vast and greater than that.
(And, of course, there are at least three possible explanations already proposed why MitD would appear that way even if he isn't holding a face in place.)
See, I disagree here. I don't think the story is based in the stat block. I think it's based in the story.
Whereas I see, Rich wants to tell a story about a powerful creature expected to be a villain who has to find the power to change, and then picks the Protean because it is the powerful creature that most symbolizes the power to change.
Anyway, my position is already well laid-out, and in sum:
- The Protean fits better than any other monster in the FBS.
- Unlike the other monsters in the FBS, the drawbacks of the Protean are behavior that is unusual or unexpected, not impossible or should work entirely differently.
- There are enough plausible explanations for that unusual behavior that I am comfortable with accepting them, given how well the Protean fits everything else.
- The Protean makes the most storytelling sense, and this is a story; I don't think any of the other FBS monsters really have a good reason to be chosen for the story being told.
Yeah, you're thinking of "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you want."
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2023-11-30, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
This is a repackaged Stormwind Fallacy, believing that it is impossible to create great characters by looking at the statblock you want them to have.
Every time we wonder what its alignment is or will be, it fits a Hunting Horror, because a Hunting Horror doesn’t have a printed alignment that Rich can portray or contradict.
Every time it is confused by the people around it, or the people around it are confused by it, it fits a Hunting Horror, because it’s a creature from the d20 CoC equivalent of the Far Realms and this is what is supposed to happen.
Every time it accepts the authority of others with little to no introspection, it fits a Hunting Horror, because the Hunting Horror is written to accept the authority of people weaker than it.
Even when O-Chul orders it to think for itself, it fits a Hunting Horror, because it is still accepting his authority.
And every time it’s revealed as a child, it fits a Hunting Horror, because the Hunting Horror is a Huge Dragon and Rich needed a Large Dragon.
By comparison, what the Protean brings to the table is an undying hatred of nonshapechanging beings and a quest to find more shapes to shapechange into. Deleting that and inserting a story Ruck wrote after seeing what the goal was shouldn't qualify as fitting.Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2023-11-30 at 06:32 PM.
TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2023-11-30, 06:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Of course we should assume that MITD is a typical example of his species in terms of personality, since it definitely hasn't been thoroughly established that his behaviour and attitude is deeply unusual for whatever he's supposed to be.
Yeah, the reason the Protean is hands down the dominant candidate for a lot of people is because Ruck was able to look at it and identify a possible story that could be told with it which seemed compelling and plausible. That the Protean supports that story is a massive point in it's favour.
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2023-11-30, 07:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2023-11-30, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Found in a jungle, speaking common. If it's a Hunting Horror, then it's definitely supposed to kill on command, hate the light, and devour sentients... which is how Xykon treats it. He won't let it out of the dark, tries to train it to kill in an intimidating fashion, and keeps trying to feed it kids. So even when the Monster in the Dark doesn't fit a Hunting Horror, Rich is telling us through Xykon's expectations that a Hunting Horror is there.
But maybe it's a clue that Rich is going to completely erase the original monster's personality, I don't know.Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2023-11-30 at 07:30 PM.
TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2023-11-30, 07:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2023-11-30, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2023-11-30 at 07:43 PM.
TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2023-11-30, 07:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
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2023-11-30, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
No, it's always been a matter of scale, which is why I was so whiny about having a standard a page or so ago. This exact point here, where my candidate sins at 1/10th the scale as other candidates, but because we did not negotiate in advance how much sinning is allowed, I'm painted as a hypocrite.
The Hunting Horror as written has four features that can be used to construct nearly the entire personality of the Monster of the Dark.
The Protean cannot be used to justify the Monster in the Dark's personality nearly as well, so people assume its personality doesn't matter at all, and they replace it with one that fits perfectly.
The Hunting Horror contradicts the Monster in the Dark in a few ways, and this is painted as catastrophic, because the belief seems to be that Rich will only completely replace a personality, and not tweak it.
I suggest that Rich can replace part of a personality as easily as an entire personality, and that the less personality replaced, the better the fit.
I have no idea how to grade the Hunting Horror that Xykon wants the Monster in the Dark to be, but maybe it is better to have such a ghost than not to have it. Fitting perfectly would be best of all, which the Hunting Horror comes closer to than the Protean.Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2023-11-30 at 08:19 PM.
TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2023-11-30, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics
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2023-11-30, 08:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Hunting Horror
No alignment
Easily confused, easily confuses
Prone to following orders
Kill on Command
Devour sentients
Hate the Light
Protean
undying hatred of all shapechanging beings
seeking new creatures to duplicate
slaying others after copying them
Xykon
Thinks the Monster in the Dark should kill on command
Thinks the Monster in the Dark should devour children
Thinks the Monster in the Dark should never leave the darkLast edited by Tubercular Ox; 2023-11-30 at 08:32 PM.
TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2023-11-30, 08:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
You know, you say no alignment.
I don't think that's accurate-the Horror might not have a LISTED alignment, but its normal actions indicate evil pretty heavily.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
Spoiler: Individual Avatar Pics