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2023-11-30, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Nobody has ever said it is impossible to do this. People are saying that this is likely not how this author is telling this story, because we have quite a bit of commentary, both in books on on thr boards, from the author directly, about how he's telling s story he wants to tell. Not a story that he came up with after looking at stat blocks for inspiration. A story that is meaningful to him. Just because you might tell a story by looking at stat blocks for inspiration does not mean that this author telling this story is by necessity doing so.
Yes, he does. And that method is nothing like what you describe. He even drew a flowchart of his method, because he is incredibly accommodating and helpful. That does not read to me as the type of method someone who crafts stories around the base of a stat block would have.
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2023-11-30, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
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2023-11-30, 09:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2023-11-30, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
In the real world, an objective standard is not something we can know for sure. And we shouldn't delve too deeply into this because it's almost certain to tread into forum-inappropriate topics.
In D&D, there are objective forces of Law, Good, Chaos, and Evil. They can literally Detect Evil.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
Spoiler: Former AvatarsSpoiler: Avatar (Not In Use) By Linkele
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2023-11-30, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Darn it, I hoped I'd deleted this in time.
Okay, the meds are kicking in, but I feel compelled to answer this.
The book example is that the more bizarre Call of Cthulhu monsters don't really see people as something to be moral over. We're like ants, or blades of grass, even if we're actually similarly sized creatures.
Rich is clearly playing with the book example on this matter, so it's not reliable, which is why I deleted the post. I think the more important point is that the Protean is listed as chaotic neutral, and not only does Xykon assume it should be more evil, but its story arc is projecting it towards good.
Whatever insight Rich had to realize that an omnicidal Chaotic Neutral being is just a few hugs away from being a friend of paladins, it is easier to have that insight for a monster without any alignment at all, and described mostly as following other people's orders.
I'm still here to show that the Protean is not the best fit, not to show that the Hunting Horror must be the answer, and in this area, the Hunting Horror fits more than a Protean.Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2023-11-30 at 10:12 PM.
TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2023-11-30, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
The problem with your arguments is that all of the big issues are about the way the two different creatures don't fit. It doesn't really matter how well a monster can explain the Tower scene if it has no explanation for the Escape scene, to use an example, and going on about how great a fit it is for the Tower Scene doesn't make it suddenly able to accomplish the Escape.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2023-11-30, 10:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Well, thanks, Peelee, because this was both better-written and more succinct than what I was coming up with.
I'll just add that I never wrote "impossible." Please don't put words in my mouth.
Every time we see him in the sunshine talking about how much he loves the sunshine, or see him expressing a desire to be in the light, he can't be a Hunting Horror, because that directly contradicts one of its most prominent traits.
I fail to see how I am "inserting a story" any more than you are. Or even as much as you are. My description of MitD as "a powerful creature expected to be a villain who has to find the power to change" is a statement I can entirely support with evidence in the text.
Because you are outright discarding the biggest pieces of evidence against the Hunting Horror-- MITD's clear enjoyment of and desire to be in light-- and writing the multiple instances off as "deviating from expectations," with no explanation how a Hunting Horror is deviating or could deviate from those expectations-- and thus, without a case for why the "deviating from expectations" argument can't be made for every creature to explain away the elements that don't fit.
If Rich chose Hunting Horror for MitD, he could have easily just not drawn strips where the MITD enjoys the sunlight or expresses desire to have light shone on him.
EDIT: I wanted to add an addendum and build on Peelee's post, because I think the question of how Rich approaches storytelling and what kind of stories he wants to tell is an important one.
I think some of Rich's comments on how view of storytelling are very important here.
I think these comments indicate what he prioritizes in the stories he tells and his reasons for telling stories.
Ox's storytelling reasons for the Hunting Horror, from what I can tell, are a combination of "Rich looked at the stat block and saw cool stuff he liked" and "the Snarl is an Eldritch abomination, so Rich is using Call of Cthulhu."
But given Rich's own words above, particularly as regards what he considers important about storytelling and how he uses storytelling to communicate his ideas, I fail to see how "It has cool stats and connects to the world of Lovecraft" is more along the lines of how Rich approaches storytelling than "You don't have to be what other people expect of you, you can be your own person who follows your own heart, and you can change if you put your mind to it" is.Last edited by Ruck; 2023-12-01 at 01:06 AM.
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2023-12-01, 02:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2023
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
I'd say that being able to fit MITD's comics behaviour into how the creature is described as typically behaving feels like a point against, since MITD pretty clearly does not behave like a typical member of his species.
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2023-12-01, 04:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Also, the Ox is wrong about the Hunting Horror (or Mythos monsters in general) having no alignment. The appendix of the Call of Cthulhu D20 sourcebook includes a section "Using Call of Cthulhu material in a D&D game". And there every monster in the book is given an official alignment (Hunting Horrors are Chaotic Evil, by the way).
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2023-12-01, 05:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Right, I don't think "expected behavior" is a good metric for deciding what the MitD is. It does have to be mechanically capable of what we've seen it do, but arguments like Ox's at the end of the last page seem to be arguing from personality:
(as well as an assumption that Xykon is somehow feeding us clues, which I don't think is very well founded.)
And his argument seems to be rather convenient / special pleading to me. When MitD doesn't behave like a Protean, that's evidence he isn't one. But when he doesn't behave like a Hunting Horror, that's evidence Rich is showing us about how he's not typical for his species, and thus actually further proof he is a Hunting Horror.
This is particularly confounded by his mixing in a mechanical element as a personality / behavior element; the Hunting Horror doesn't just "hate the light," it's actively damaged by it. Which gets to my point about mechanics and I think the same one Keltest is making: MitD's personality may not be typical for his species, but as far as we're led to believe, his stats, strengths, and weaknesses are. So something that mechanically should happen for a particular species, and doesn't-- let alone is something Rich knowingly wrote and drew in the exact opposite manner of how it would work-- at least needs an attempt to explain why it doesn't beyond "He's just different." Similarly, while I think the storytelling reasons make the Protean the best choice, they also wouldn't matter if MitD was shown doing things impossible for a Protean and we had already eliminated it mechanically.
(Plus, he's just factually wrong about the alignment, per Tzardok's post. And he's referenced "no alignment" multiple times in the last handful of posts, so he must consider it important to his argument.)Last edited by Ruck; 2023-12-01 at 06:26 AM.
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2023-12-01, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2023-12-01, 08:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Disagree. D&D is still at the core of the Stickworld. Yes, Rich doesn't care about rule minutiae, but the world still follows the rules broadly, the planes and embodiments of the alignments still exist, spells to determine them exist.
In short, we do have an objective standard. It's written down in flaming letters.
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2023-12-01, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
OotS runs on D&D rules until shown otherwise.
But don't take it from me, take it from Rich:
You want to claim that D&D alingment rules don't apply? Show comic proof that it doesn't. But as far as I am kown, you ain't got anything to find, since the comic very clearly runs on the alignment rules.
Grey WolfInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2023-12-01, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Last edited by Errorname; 2023-12-01 at 08:32 AM.
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2023-12-01, 08:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
The thing is, once more, that while it doesn't have to be all or nothing, the notion that
a. he is perfectly capable of doing the one thing that does in fact require deliberate effort and active awareness constantly;
b. except on two or three occasions when it is convenient for him not to be able to; and
c. he somehow does both in the Circus scene
is something I will consider highly dubious.
(As for the proposed explanations, I have explained why I find each lackluster or very lackluster, so…)
See, I disagree here. I don't think the story is based in the stat block. I think it's based in the story.
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2023-12-01, 08:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Is there an Ex ability a protean could copy that would replicate the effects of the "Stop" scene?
It looks to be either Command (halt) or Fear (pass check causing shaken).
I can buy into the idea of the protean controlling its shape because that is an inherent ability of the creature itself.
I can also buy into the idea of the protean not controlling the abilities it is granted from copying the shapes of others because they are not inherent to the protean... they are something it is getting from another creature type instead.
Basically, it knows and understands what it can do, but it doesn't really understand what it is gaining from other creatures.Last edited by mashlagoo1982; 2023-12-01 at 09:03 AM.
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2023-12-01, 09:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
A dragon's Frightful Presence, if you are willing to allow it a bit creativity with what activates it.
But IMO the "STOP!" scene is not a fear effect (at best an Intimidation skill check). It just shouts really loudly.
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2023-12-01, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Yeah, I agree that fear isn't a good fit. I was more thinking the fear spell itself where both Haley and Belkar made their save throws. This would mean they were shaken for one round.
Command seems to be a better fit. Just change "halt" to "stop".
I had not considered Intimidate... would that work?Last edited by mashlagoo1982; 2023-12-01 at 09:10 AM.
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2023-12-01, 09:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Intimidate +47, natively.
I can buy into the idea of the protean controlling its shape because that is an inherent ability of the creature itself.
I can also buy into the idea of the protean not controlling the abilities it is granted from copying the shapes of others because they are not inherent to the protean... they are something it is getting from another creature type instead.
Basically, it knows and understands what it can do, but it doesn't really understand what it is gaining from other creatures.
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2023-12-01, 09:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
I agree that maintaining it's shape is not the baseline for a protean. However, the ability to do so is on the stat sheet of the protean itself. So, it could realistically be able to perform this action if it desires, even if it does not know it is a protean.
Where-as the abilities it is copying are not native to the protean. So it maybe doesn't understand what they are, how to activate them, or even that it has them.Last edited by mashlagoo1982; 2023-12-01 at 09:18 AM.
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2023-12-01, 09:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
The thing is that a protean needs to spend actions to maintain a shape. It can't do so while asleep, for example. Yet the MitD's eyes and size remain the same, even while asleep.
Now, one could claim that it was under some kind of stabilizing spell or wore a magic item in that direction, but I find such explanations contrived.
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2023-12-01, 09:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
How do you know that he still has eyes while he is sleeping? Generally, eyes are hidden behind some kind of lid to prevent light from waking the sleeper up. That's what those curved lines represent in the comic. Those ain't eyes, they are shorthand for "the eyes are not visible anymore". Whether that's because MitD has eyelids or because the proteans autonomic system has disposed of the eyes to make sleep easier, we cannot tell. All we can tell is "the eyes aren't visible anymore".
Heck, it's ridiculous to start with that, whatever MitD is, he'd sleep with his face aligned with the rather high window of his box. Almost every creature I can picture would lay down its head such that it wouldn't be lined up, so the very fact we can see the eye lines at all is just the tell that he is asleep*, just as the "he is saying 'zzzzzz'" is a tell he is lightly snoring, despite that probably only being the sounds a human makes and would not apply to any other species.
Grey Wolf
*And I don't mean just the head. Like, I'd expect most creatures to lay down to sleep. Not many species sleep standing up.Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2023-12-01 at 10:07 AM.
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
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2023-12-01, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Yes, exactly my point! Using only his own intuition and an apathy for the rules, Rich attracted the kind of audience that gets concerned when Tsukiko doesn't have enough barred schools, despite barred schools not being a plot point for Tsukiko, and despite the schools of the spells Tsukiko is casting not being mentioned.
But Rich did not trust his apathy to help him write the Protean, so instead he set up excuses that let him ignore its personality, feats, skills, SLA's, and special abilities.
If other people want to believe that Rich promised us an OotsWorld RPG that is 3.5 except when it isn't, then the argument is the same. Rich's interpretation of that promise attracted the kind of audience that is concerned for Tsukiko, but interpreted that promise completely differently in order to enable a Protean that doesn't follow its stat block.
I don't care what Rich's method actually is, he still abandoned it to write the Protean.
We never see this.
So rather than settle the issue of why the Protean is held to a different standard than every other character, you try to move on to different flaws of the example monster. I expected this, and it’s why I wanted to talk about the standard before bringing up a monster you could easily change the subject to.
The Protean has that eyes/mouth/limb thing, which directly contradicts one of its most prominent traits, and people are still searching for a comic that is half as good as the comic that excuses the Hunting Horror’s weakness to light.
There are people who reject as too surreal the Hunting Horror flaw that Rich actually took time to write about, while accepting that a Protean flaw doesn’t need any excuse beyond what they can make up.
The Protean has that shapeshifting thing, which is supposed to be key to the story, and Rich can’t find a way to mention it in the story at all. Meanwhile, for the light weakness, Rich made it a thing that the monster always hesitates before going into the light, which is actually a problem for the Protean, because it has no reason to hesitate like that except what people make up for it.
The Hunting Horror’s flaws are worked into the story better than the Protean’s flaws.TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2023-12-01, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2013
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
TBH the eyes discussion isn't a problem to me.
I saw it as an artistic decision by Rich to match the style of the universe and as a simple way to convey MitD expression.
All the arguments about the eyes not being in flux mean nothing to me because I don't buy into the necessity of an explanation.
Not trying to convince anyone to change their opinion, explaining why it isn't an issue for me.
I was more trying to explain how if MitD is a protean, how I could see Rich explaining the inconsistent access to powers outside its own listed on the protean stat sheet.
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2023-12-01, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
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2023-12-01, 10:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
Interested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2023-12-01, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
First, the cipactli is quadrupedal, thank you very much. Second, every single bird sleeps standing up; the concept isn't that strange that I'd need to invent a template for it (also, templates generally don't care about such details; half-fiend doesn't even mention effects on life-span. Minor pet pieve of mine). For all we know the MitD lays its head on its back when sleeping, ensuring that it isn't any lower asleep than awake.
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2023-12-01, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2020
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
…which is why Likeable Death Worm is consistently depicted with such bent lines to signify that it doesn't have eyes! (Come on.)
Besides BIRDIES, yes, many quadrupeds actually default to sleeping standing up, and bipeds such as humans can do the same so long as they have something to support their body against. Further, we have, in fact, seen bipeds depicted as sleeping while sitting that looked barely shorter than while standing up and whose heads didn't stoop forward.
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2023-12-01, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
Re: MitD XIX: The Potted Plant Is Starting To Look Reasonable
I've seen it depicted both biped and quadrupedal, and either way it definitely is not going to sleep with its head lined up with the window. A bird, it is not. And even a bird, hides away their eyes while sleeping to the point there is no eyes to see (and even when one eye is visible, the other will be hidden on the other side of their head). So my point stands: those are not eyelids, those are tells.
GWInterested in MitD? Join us in MitD's thread.There is a world of imagination
Deep in the corners of your mind
Where reality is an intruder
And myth and legend thrive
Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est
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2023-12-01, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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