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2024-02-21, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
If the blood flying from the dino's bite is any indication, that did some serious damage. But there's no way I expect the fight to be over after, what has it been, just four strips or half a dozen pages?
There's no way this goes so easily, and if this is a high point for the Order in the fight, crap is going to hit the proverbial fan just as hard. It's just bound to.
Then again, I would certainly love it if Bloodfeast got to cathartically repay their lengthy stay as a polymorphed lizard with some dragon-decapitating. I just don't think it's going to be nearly that simple when it plays out.
EDIT: I'm also glad that polymorphing and the cancellation thereof seems to ignore conservation-of-momentum, otherwise the impact of a tiny lizard against a massive dragon wouldn't have let Bloodfeast sink their actual dinosaur teeth and claws in that deeply at all.Last edited by TheNecrocomicon; 2024-02-21 at 12:35 AM.
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2024-02-21, 01:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
BLOODFEAST!!!!
I'm reading this in the middle of the night and literally screamed the above with pure delight at the sheer awesomeness of that penultimate panel.
Fortunately, no one woke up.Proud White Cloak Acolyte of the Fan Club.
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2024-02-21, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2024-02-21, 03:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
I love the expression on BFtX's face going up!
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2024-02-21, 03:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Oh that is glorious!
BLOODFEAST!
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2024-02-21, 08:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Calder is holding Roy's sword awfully close to Bloodfeast's chest...
Just sayin'."I'll see you on the road!"
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2024-02-21, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Yep. Technically it's two feats. The first requires Iron Will and merely reduce the vulnerability to halves the extra damage you take (so instead of receiving 150% of the damage rolled, you receive 125% of it); the second requires the first and completely removes the vulnerability (so you receive only the regular 100% of damage rolled).
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2024-02-21, 09:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-21, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2023
Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Maybe the dragon slowly built up an immunity to cold damage by casting polar ray at a mirror and reflecting it back at himself every day for years
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2024-02-21, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
I didn't see anyone in this thread point out, that Calder specifically requested the Antimagic cone to be aimed on his torso. His back and tail can be out of the cone, and attacked normally with magic weapons. Also, Haley's not in the cone, along with her bow. Most of her arrows aren't magical, it's the bow that gives magical bonuses based on improved aim an string pull. On the other hand, Calder can probably stretch his neck very hard and use his breath, depending on the angle of the cone
I mean, Rich mostly follows the rules, and only deviates from them when it's cool/convenient. Sunny's a good example: they have 1 less eyestalk, and a different personality, but otherwise behave and fight exactly as a Beholder would. As a person who's always looking at the comic through a D&D3.5 rules (simply because I played it for a lot of years), one can usually deduce a lot about the Rich's monsters looking at their statblocks.
I mean, "Suppress Weakness" and "Overcome weakness" are literally feats described in draconomicon that allow to do excatly that (remove energy vulnerability). And 2 levels in Mindbender class specifically allow someone to communicate telepathically with creatures in a range of 100ft, and give the ability to give suggestion using that telepathy
I mean, Rich's very aware of the rules, and references them often (the in-comic book about ancestral weapons literally references rulebook about ancestral weapons "Weapon of legacy"), it's unlikely that he uses the specific word for a popular prestige class on accident, not as a reference.
Its clearly determined in the definition of what a fly speed is:
Originally Posted by srd
Baleful Polymorph, which is a spell Bloodfeast's under, doesn't change hit points, so the sword isn't more likely to bisect him when he's small; he's an unnaturally hardy small lizard
by my calculations, improving an allosaurus to 21HD and Gargantuan size gives him BAB of 15, -4 size penalty, Str of 32 which results in Bite +22 which allows to hit a very old red dragon on 1d20>=14. Rake attack also uses the main attack bonus.
And I concur, Bloodfeast being advanced animal with gargantuan size makes a lot of sense to me.
for a very old dragon with a Str of 37 light load (which he is limited to per fly speed rules) is 16608 if you're going off a quadruped capacity or 11702 if you're using biped stats. But I think that's beside the point, Belkar specifically used Bloodfeast to bring the dragon down, so that's what will likely happen.Last edited by elecampane; 2024-02-21 at 09:32 AM.
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2024-02-21, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
To be fair to Elan, this has only been a few hours for him.
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1239.htmlTo the guy responsible for Belkar, Haley and Vaarsuvius. Thank you for providing over 800 comedy gems.
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2024-02-21, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2009
Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
A younger dragon with extra caster levels would wreck the CR system, but I get what you're saying.
Fun would be a very good reason for why Rich continues to have rules references even after his audience thinks his story has matured and he should stop. Another, compatible reason would be if it's an integral part of his creative process. For example, if he were trying to decide if Miko could solo the entire party, he could mock up a scene with this level of detail, and inform his decision to have a jump cut to the party's defeat from that mock-up.
The way these work together is that it is easy to keep the comic believable (from a D&D standpoint, and to an extent consistent with what we see) if keeping it believable is also fun. And if the mock-ups normally happened before the scene is designed, then making his decisions without a mock-up would actually be the more dangerous route, since he would have no practice writing stories that way and would be risking the quality of the output on an experiment that probably isn't even fun to do.
The art upgrades are explicit about this. Rich tells us that he implements them because they're necessary in order for him to maintain interest in his work. AKA, they're fun.
Almost everything in this paragraph has a reasonable rules explanation, most of which have been pointed out. Suppress Weakness and Overcome Weakness are feats that could let Calder unburden himself of his vulnerability. Suggestion is an SLA, requiring no components (neither verbal, somatic, nor material) to cast, and a Mindbender's telepathy likewise just happens.
Being awake while frozen is weird, but the Temporal Stasis spell does have the footnote that it claims, "Body functions virtually cease."
It upsets certain people because the points are often unprovable, but if we imagine Rich reading the rules for inspiration instead of for simulation, then sentences like that become food for thought.
Bottom line: All of the evidence is that the rules are a part of Rich's process somewhere, and if he puts extra effort in, it's to make sure the story is still fun for people who don't follow the rules. And the evidence is that Rich would be down for extra effort, because he adds to the complexity of the comic regularly.
Inconceivable!Last edited by Tubercular Ox; 2024-02-21 at 09:45 AM.
TinyMushroom drew my avatarSpoiler: A shaggy dog storyAn evil sorcerer in command of a dark cult is trying to unleash a god-killing abomination more real than the gods themselves. At his side, yellow eyes revealed a Haunter of the Dark. The evil sorcerer ordered it to kill.
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2024-02-21, 09:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Ok, since no one has apparently asked this before, what does "Alley Oop" (comic title) refer to?
Never heard of the term, and a Google search led to Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alley-oop - but that doesn't seem to fit expect very remotely (Belkar tossing Bloodfeast...).Last edited by Zarhan; 2024-02-21 at 09:48 AM.
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2024-02-21, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
It's also an old comic strip about dinosaurs an cavemen, and also possibly a pun on Allosaurus. I think it's a reference to all three of those.
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2024-02-21, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
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2024-02-21, 10:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2019
Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Right, didn't research that deep - thought it was mostly about basketball. Thanks guys.
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2024-02-21, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Yep! Suppress Weakness and Overcome Weakness.
Or when he forgets or misremembers the exact mechanisms. But overall, I largely agree. If I see a creature in OotS, then I have no reason to think it won't be reasonably identical to the MM entry.
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2024-02-21, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2023
Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
I just noticed the rules don't actually say whether dragons are considered quadrupeds. https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm
Quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Any creature with four or more motive limbs can carry a load as a quadruped, even if it does not necessarily use all the limbs at once.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm
Can a flying creature use its quadrupedal carrying bonus? This seems to assume the creature is on the ground. Even if your arms are strong enough to lift infinite weight, wouldn't the strength of your wings be the sole determining factor in whether you can stay in the air with a particular amount of carried weight?
I don't care about the particular example in the comic, I'm just curious about how the rules are meant to work generally.
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2024-02-21, 11:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
One thing I've learned by spending (don't think about it) years on the Internet is that most people would rather repeat whatever they remember than look it up to see if it's true. Or get more details. Or anything.
Luckily, I'm not most people.
According to the Class & Level Geekery Thread:
- Roy has a BAB of at least +14 and a Strength bonus of +9 (with magic items), so his attack bonus without magic is probably somewhere around +20. Two iterative attacks can hit without a natural 20.
- Belkar has a BAB of +15 and a Strength bonus of +2 or +3, so his attack bonus without magic is +16 or +17. If he squeezed Weapon Focus or something in there, his second unmagicked attack could hit on a 19.
- Durkon has a BAB of +9 and a Strength bonus between +3 and +5. Without magic, his first attack needs at least a 19 to hit.
- Elan has a BAB of at least +10 and no Strength bonus. He probably needs a natural 20 even with magic.
- Haley has a BAB of +12 and a Dexterity bonus of +5 ("even in anti-magic"). That's comparable to Belkar.
- Minrah probably has a BAB somewhere north of +7 and a Strength bonus of +2 to +4. On par with Elan.
- Vaarsuvius is a wizard.
So not quite true, but close to true.
Point 1: Since when has the Order fought monsters in their league?
Point 2: Most people are assuming Calder is Old because, um, he looks old. He's got a vaguely gaunt face and a broken horn and a...beard? And bushy...eye...ridges... Anyways, Rich presumably designed him that way for a reason, presumably to communicate that this is an old dragon, and hence a dangerous one.
RAW, a turkey has four motive limbs (gliding is a form of movement), so it would get quadruped carrying capacity. And a snake doesn't have any limbs, motive or otherwise, so it doesn't.
The carrying capacity rules aren't all that detailed. AFAIK, there isn't a specific clause for flying creatures.
The general rule about "they can only fly with a light load" covers things pretty well, though.
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2024-02-21, 12:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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2024-02-21, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
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2024-02-21, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2021
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2024-02-21, 12:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2015
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2024-02-21, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2016
Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
The beard is tha classical Red Dragon look, though. "Looking old" is their natural look.
What makes him look older (and more maleficient) than normal to me are the bulging, squinting eyes.
It would be nice to check AMFES (summer 1, I guess?) to see how Rich draws "standard" red dragons of the different age categories. I'll look for my copy this weekend.Last edited by Kardwill; 2024-02-21 at 12:30 PM.
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2024-02-21, 12:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Anyone else think Roy was going to throw Minrah at Sunny?
Also, I'm wondering how Serini got Calder in there. I'm guessing a dungeon builder's trade secret.
"They" the frost giants have an AC of 21.
The problem with that analogy is that the allosaurus does "bark". Let's run through the characteristics of lizards:
- Four limbs
- Egg laying
- Endoskeletion
- Cold blooded (maybe the real one might not have been, but the pop cultures ones are)
- Long tails
- Overlapping, keratinous scales
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2024-02-21, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Ok, so for pop culture cold bloodedness, can you cite a source for me? Because in current pop culture (not pre-1950s pop culture where you would be correct), dinosaurs are warm blooded. Here is my citation.
Also, platypus fit almsot all of that criteria quite well. And, regardless, you make an excellent case for why the name "dinosaur" was originally coined. You make zero case as to why their name determines what they are. I can find an extinct bird and call it "tiny hippopotamus". That doesn't make the bird a type of hippopotamus. That makes my name taxonomically incorrect.
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2024-02-21, 12:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
No, no, I'm with Belkar on this one. This is extremely cool.
"I am the white void. I am the cold steel. I am the just sword. With blade in hand, I shall reap the sins of this world and cleanse it in the flames of destruction.My name is Hakumen. Your time has come!"
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2024-02-21, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
For Kaed:
Any time you're not sure if something can be done in 3.x D&D, assume that it can be done.
Seriously, there is so much crap published for 3.x and derivative systems it's silly.
And despite Rich's comments about not caring about the details of the rules, he gets them right with astonishing regularity.
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2024-02-21, 01:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
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2024-02-21, 02:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1298 - The Discussion Thread
Some lizards have no legs. Some are viviparous. I think it's also correct to say that all (legged) lizards are quadrupedal, even if some of them can run on their hind legs for short distances, whereas many dinosaurs, including the Allosaurus, are bipedal. Dinosaurs also famously have erect legs, whereas all lizards have a splayed stance. And I'm also pretty sure that dinosaurs don't, by default, have overlapping scales: this is (again iirc) one of the main distinguishing features between squamates and archosaurs.
The name "dinosaur" was coined back when taxonomy in general was in its infancy and the early palaeontologists had put the skeletons together wrong, so they were associated with liza. But that dinosaurs are not lizards has been known for... I want to say about 160 years? And nobody these days, even the lowest-denominator pop-culture, presents Crystal-Palace-style dinosaurs as having been a thing, so the confusion should be much less obvious. In any case, I don't think it's really fair to argue association by reference to (grandfathered) taxonomic translations and then ignore the actual taxonomy.
Really, crocodiles have a lot more superficially in common with lizards than dinosaurs do, but I've also never heard anyone trying to argue that they're actually lizards.
I mean on that very point, "hippopotamus" means "water horse". A hippopotamus is not actually a horse, and anyone who tries to argue that it is is being very silly.Last edited by Aedilred; 2024-02-21 at 02:40 PM.
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