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Thread: What alignment is Oona?
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2020-10-03, 05:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
There are that do? There are traits that by themselves are enough to make you call a particular person good, even if absolutely everything else about them is unrepentantly terrible? What an odd notion.
I mean ignoring the fact that trying to put people in good/neutral/evil case as if that was somehow measurable is an exercise in futility, it seems to me that the only way to describe a character as "good" is to say that their positive traits outweight their negative ones in number or intensity. It's a ridiculously subjective call to make of course so people are going to disagree as they'll draw lines at different places.
Tht makes much more sense to me than looking for particular traits that are necessary/sufficient to qualify for one case. Especially since everyone exhibits every trait at some degree. A perfectly selfish person is just as nonexistant as a perfectly selfless person, everyone is both but some are more one than the other while for others it's the opposite.
I'm not sure what you are saying, there. Is that an example of an inherently good trait? Because, that's a bit needlessly complicated, I would have gone with love, humility or compassion, for example. OR are you saying that for a trait to be inherently good it must be an expression of that? I would disagree.Forum Wisdom
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2020-10-03, 06:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
Classifying people is a pretty dumb idea, yeah, but the OP was referring to that because Oona possessed several traits ( that are usually seen as good, such as caring for others or the community) she somehow was neutral.
I guess I'd like to revise my stance, then; I am unsure (and I don't think) there are inherently good traits, but love and compassion are not necessarily inherently good ones. The same goes for typically-viewed-as-evil traits; malice or hatred are not necessarily inherently evil ones either.
I'm not sure what you are saying, there. Is that an example of an inherently good trait? Because, that's a bit needlessly complicated, I would have gone with love, humility or compassion, for example. OR are you saying that for a trait to be inherently good it must be an expression of that? I would disagree.
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2020-10-03, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2020
Re: What alignment is Oona?
Multiple things I disagree with here. Those being love and compassion being not inherently good and malice not being inherently evil. Though I do agree about hatred not necessarily being evil, as a hatred of evil would logically be a good hatred to have.
But anyway:
1. The very definition of "malice" is "the desire to do evil". It cannot not be evil.
2. I think you've confused kindness with compassion. Kindness isn't necessarily good or evil. An evil person understands the value of kindness, so far as it extends to loyalty from those being treated kindly. Compassion, on the other hand, requires empathy for the plight of others, which stands directly in opposition with the total selfishness of evil. A kind person will donate to a cause and feel good about the donation. A compassionate person will donate and feel guilty that they were unable to help more.
3. I'm just going to quote myself on love here. Love cannot be evil. If the love appears to be evil, then it is not love, but some other emotion, whether it be pity, or lust, or pride, etc., masquerading as love.
Last edited by WanderingMist; 2020-10-03 at 11:53 PM. Reason: Typo
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2020-10-04, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2019
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
I feel it's malicious to play a prank, but I wouldn't say every person who does a prank is evil.
2. I think you've confused kindness with compassion. Kindness isn't necessarily good or evil. An evil person understands the value of kindness, so far as it extends to loyalty from those being treated kindly. Compassion, on the other hand, requires empathy for the plight of others, which stands directly in opposition with the total selfishness of evil. A kind person will donate to a cause and feel good about the donation. A compassionate person will donate and feel guilty that they were unable to help more.
3. I'm just going to quote myself on love here. Love cannot be evil. If the love appears to be evil, then it is not love, but some other emotion, whether it be pity, or lust, or pride, etc., masquerading as love.
I mean, Nale and Sabine, among some of the most evilest characters in the comic, genuinely love each other (and not just a form of pity/lust/pride). Hilgya is surely not pitying her son either.
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2020-10-04, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
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2020-10-07, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2012
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
Redcloak cast Protection from Good on Oona with no pain on her part, so it is literally not possible for Oona to be Good.
Neutral or Evil are the only 2 options.
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2020-10-08, 09:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
Malice is a wrongful desire to harm others. It is evil by definition. If you have a desire to harm someone for perfectly justified reasons, such as to protect someone else, then it's not malice.
Love is a form of advanced compassion for another person and is altruistic at its base. It cannot be evil. But love for one person is by itself not enough to redeem someone who engages in evil acts in every other aspect of their life.
Hatred of an abstract concept, like evil or sin, is a very different kettle of fish from hatred of a person or group of people. Hatred of a person is an evil act, no matter how despicable or "deserving" the person may be. Hatred always harms the hater more than the object of the hate.
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2020-10-08, 10:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2012
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- Waterworld
Re: What alignment is Oona?
I think this thread has a bad case of "But people who are X alignment do Y activity therefore Y is an X-aligned activity" which is really the wrong way to look at alignment.
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2020-10-08, 10:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: What alignment is Oona?
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2020-10-08, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2016
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
Hatred always harms the hater more than the object of the hate.
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2020-10-08, 12:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
Sure. Let's say you hate a public figure your whole life but never actually meet them, correspond with them, or otherwise interact with them before you die.
Who was the most negatively impacted by your hate?
The target of your hate was wholly unaffected and was probably completely unaware of how you felt about them.
You, on the other hand, were annoyed and stressed every time you thought of or talked about the person. Your hatred may even have ruined other relationships when friends became aware of your hatred for this person.
If you go and act on your hatred then you may actually do more harm to the target of your hate, but that would be your actions doing the harm, not your hate. Hate by itself only harms the hater.
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2020-10-08, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
But if hate gives rise to intent which gives rise to action, why does the resulting harm not follow the chain back to the original motive? I don't think the hate is so easily divorced from the hateful acts. Impotent hate harms the hater and not the hated, but that is a function of the impotence, not the hatred.
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2020-10-08, 05:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-08, 05:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
Forum Wisdom
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2020-10-08, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2015
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
The claim you made was that hate harms the hater more than the hated.
And I would say those different motives are just as relevant. My position is that if someone is driven by some motive to commit intentionally harmful acts, then the motive is also implicated in the harm done, because the acts are an expression of the motive.
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2020-10-08, 09:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
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2020-10-08, 09:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: What alignment is Oona?
Probably chaotic evil, though I could see her being lawful evil.
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2020-10-08, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2018
Re: What alignment is Oona?
I was ambivalent before reading this thread but I'd like to reiterate that she considers MitD- a being intelligent enough to have a conversation- to be inherently subservient to another being, despite him stating that he does not see it that way or want that. If that doesn't scream "Lawful Evil" to me I don't know what does.
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2020-10-09, 03:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
Re: What alignment is Oona?
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2020-10-09, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-09, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-09, 02:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-10-09, 03:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
I was ambivalent before reading this thread but I'd like to reiterate that she considers MitD- a being intelligent enough to have a conversation- to be inherently subservient to another being, despite him stating that he does not see it that way or want that. If that doesn't scream "Lawful Evil" to me I don't know what does.
Oona believes in reciprocity of respect and the master's duty to protect those who serve him / her. And she puts her money were her mouth is. That's not Evil, actually I find it incompatible with Lawful Evil.
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2020-10-09, 03:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018
Re: What alignment is Oona?
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2020-10-09, 08:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2018
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2020-10-10, 07:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-10-10, 09:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
Yes, I am slightly egomaniac. Why didn't you ask?
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2020-10-10, 09:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2020
Re: What alignment is Oona?
Getting the food necessary to survive is not a bad reason.
Is your only other source of food a horrible cave full of dangerous monsters that can easily kill you and will you starve otherwise? Then yes, that's neutral.
What? Oona respects the lives of Greyview, MitD, and Redcloak. Dignity is entirely irrelevant, especially in an arctic wasteland where you have to do certain things in order to survive. Just because her version of respect is different from ours doesn't make it any less valid. Now, I know this is a long shot, but her speech about how beasts must serve their masters could possibly be taken as "If you do not wish to serve your master, find a new one, or become your own master", which is a harsher version of O-Chul's lesson about the value of friends and their influence on you.
I've got a quote somewhere on these forums, but love and compassion are inherently good traits. Compassion requires empathy, which is definitely against the selfish nature of Evil. And you can't have "love for others" as a motive without it starting to turn you away from Evil, which I believe applies to our Miss Oona here, as her clan and that is one of her main motivations for her actions. Yes, Nale and Sabine did love each other and were Evil, but their love for each other was not a motive for either of their goals.Last edited by WanderingMist; 2020-10-10 at 09:51 AM.
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2020-10-10, 09:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2013
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Re: What alignment is Oona?
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2020-10-10, 10:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2018