OOTS #1232 - The Discussion Thread

[Aristocles22]

Bolding mine.
That's... not true. While we have seen several species specific gods, almost all of them have been explicitly stated to be mortals of that species who ascended. All of the North follows the Northern Pantheon and all of its gods are available for all Northerners. The Southern Pantheon doesn't even individualize clerics between the gods, let alone species, and everyone is involved in worldbuilding. Monkey was the one who suggested ninjas be added to Ootsworld, but not all ninjas are followers of Monkey (we know because we've had goblin ninjas). If what you are saying was the case, only one god would be allowed to do anything involving dwarves, and we know that both Hel and Thor were involved with them at the worldbuilding stage and that the Dwarves' highest religious authority is the high priest of Odin.

Perhaps I should have been more precise. Each god is responsible for creating his or her own species on any given world. That's what Thor just said. This time, Fenris was responsible for creating the goblinoids and possibly a few more. While each sapient creature can choose to follow other gods or fall under the reign of another god, the responsibility for creating each race still falls on a specific god each time they make a new world, hence the parenthood analogy. This throws my country analogy off a bit, I suppose.

[danielxcutter]

I still don't see how that changes "goblins started out less and thus have had a disadvantage for ages, and the gods didn't really do anything to prevent that which is how we got here" to be honest.

[t209]

Thor explained that in the comic. The gods created the goblins and then grew bored and stopped paying attention to them.

Oooh.
I think I might have missed that line. So a bored god who wanted to see and frustrated with Goblins failing...not sure if he was thinking Goblin Slayer*.
*Except the theme is "which is heroic, slaying a demon king/large but sporadic or goblins/small but endemic".

[Xihirli]

I wonder why? Clearly you can be a God of a race you didn't create. Why would a God turn down a competiton free market? You think some lesser God would have moved in and set up shop

Who’s to say a few didn’t try and the goblins just... didn’t like them. Anyone can proclaim themselves the god of this or that, but whether or not people worship you for it isn’t necessarily under your control.

[Aristocles22]

I still don't see how that changes "goblins started out less and thus have had a disadvantage for ages, and the gods didn't really do anything to prevent that which is how we got here" to be honest.

First, I don't believe they were at a disadvantage. The evidence for that is slight, given that other species had to deal with bad climates and abusive/neglectful gods and still came out fine. Second, if they were disadvantaged, it wasn't the duty of all the gods to fix that, just Fenris and maybe Odin, as king of the pantheon Fenris was a part of. All we know for sure is that the goblins (including Hobgoblins) were losers for a long time, that they scored what might have been their first major victory when they took Azure City, and that Fenris didn't pay them much attention. But if evidence of them being "disadvantaged" is that they were militarily ineffective and easy for adventurers to kill, that's not really evidence of anything by itself other than them not being very good at combat. Thor clearly seems to think Fenris' numbers over quality strategy didn't work, but if that's the disadvantage by design, it's actually not so much a disadvantage so much as it is a Zerg rush playstyle. More fit for an RTS game than most RPGs, as the name of the strategy might imply.

The point is that simply because the goblins were losers whose god didn't pay them much attention doesn't actually entitle them to much of anything. Like a loser kid with a neglectful father. That kid isn't owed anything at the expense of the children whose parents did a better job. While I can understand the bitterness which comes with not getting what you want while other people do, your not having something doesn't imply that you're owed it. The only things the gods could have done to benefit the goblins would have come at the expense of the other races, which as Thor pointed out, wasn't fair. It's like forcing the other kids to pay the loser kid some of their lunch money.

[Squire Doodad]

Yes. Clearly we saw half-ninjas.

Goblins have favored class: Rogue so it's certainly possible for them to multiclass.

Would a goblin multiclassing into ninja be like an elven ranger multiclassing into beholder?

[arimareiji]

Either way, it's pretty clear that he seriously considered it for a moment. Otherwise he'd have skipped straight to blasting.

Truth. Whether or not it's very close per se, Redcloak seriously considering it makes it very close by comparison to how a lot of us thought he would react.

Would be interesting I admit. To be honest though... Xykon's ridiculously overleveled compared to the rest of the non-divine cast. Action economy is a thing, but I suspect the only thing that'll put him down is shoving him through a Rift so the Snarl eats him.

When the final battle approaches, come on over to the Next-strip predictions thread. Otherwise, I'm likely to steal this. (^_~)

As the song says "Here I Am". So, when's the last time you volunteered at a homeless shelter? You can find one far closer than 1,000 miles away, or 3 cities over.

You don't get to be "disenchanted" with other people who are simply doing the exact same thing that you're doing

The only response I can make is that you don't know nearly enough about me, to be making arguments predicated on what your imaginary version of me has a right to feel or say.

[danielxcutter]

First, I don't believe they were at a disadvantage. The evidence for that is slight, given that other species had to deal with bad climates and abusive/neglectful gods and still came out fine. Second, if they were disadvantaged, it wasn't the duty of all the gods to fix that, just Fenris and maybe Odin, as king of the pantheon Fenris was a part of. All we know for sure is that the goblins (including Hobgoblins) were losers for a long time, that they scored what might have been their first major victory when they took Azure City, and that Fenris didn't pay them much attention. But if evidence of them being "disadvantaged" is that they were militarily ineffective and easy for adventurers to kill, that's not really evidence of anything by itself other than them not being very good at combat. Thor clearly seems to think Fenris' numbers over quality strategy didn't work, but if that's the disadvantage by design, it's actually not so much a disadvantage so much as it is a Zerg rush playstyle. More fit for an RTS game than most RPGs, as the name of the strategy might imply.

For starters, Thor basically admitted that 1. the goblins started off with a not insignificant disadvantage which contributed to them being worse off as a whole, and B) that the gods as a whole really didn't do much to prevent that.

The point is that simply because the goblins were losers whose god didn't pay them much attention doesn't actually entitle them to much of anything. Like a loser kid with a neglectful father. That kid isn't owed anything at the expense of the children whose parents did a better job. While I can understand the bitterness which comes with not getting what you want while other people do, your not having something doesn't imply that you're owed it. The only things the gods could have done to benefit the goblins would have come at the expense of the other races, which as Thor pointed out, wasn't fair. It's like forcing the other kids to pay the loser kid some of their lunch money.

I constantly fail to understand how some people hear "goblins have an unfair disadvantage compared to PC races and that's what caused this entire fiasco, that should be fixed" as "goblins did nothing wrong and they are totally justified".

I'd say taking care of the goblins is more like free healthcare and counseling and stuff instead of locking the kid up and throwing the key away, rather than how you put it. Or whatever they do for kids like that in your country, I'm not an expert on that.

[Aristocles22]

For starters, Thor basically admitted that 1. the goblins started off with a not insignificant disadvantage which contributed to them being worse off as a whole, and B) that the gods as a whole really didn't do much to prevent that.



I constantly fail to understand how some people hear "goblins have an unfair disadvantage compared to PC races and that's what caused this entire fiasco, that should be fixed" as "goblins did nothing wrong and they are totally justified".

I'd say taking care of the goblins is more like free healthcare and counseling and stuff instead of locking the kid up and throwing the key away, rather than how you put it. Or whatever they do for kids like that in your country, I'm not an expert on that.

I'm not sure he said that. You seem to be reading that into it. I'm not saying that Fenris neglecting them was alright (that one panel sure changed a lot of their backstory, didn't it?) only that said neglect did not constitute a disadvantage, given that we've seen races living under vastly worse gods do much better. Fenris mostly left them alone after trying an already-failed strategy.

But fixing it once the world is set is impossible to do without mortals willingly giving up things for the goblins. The gods aren't going to punish the other mortals to help the goblins, and given that the world is limited in size and scope, it is a zero-sum game. Any gains the goblins make as it stands will come at the expense of others. There's no way around that without simply making the goblin's lands richer, and that idea was also shot down.

This isn't at all like free healthcare, and I never said the loser kid would be locked up. A lot of people are saying that I said things I never said. Anyway, the point I was making that time had nothing to do with what the gods owed the goblins- most or all of them don't owe them anything and never did for a second- but that giving the goblins something would mean punishing the other races, something which would be very wrong. Free healthcare really doesn't factor into that, even by analogy, as that would be a system everyone would have to pay into without taking anything away from anyone else, while the situation here would require that things be taken away from someone else to benefit the goblins.

Of course, none of the other races would stand for it, and rightfully so. If the goblins thought the others races hated them before, they'd really hate them now. Robbing people who didn't do anything wrong to correct an alleged injustice due to neglect on the part of a single god (or two if you count Odin) is just wrong. "Give up a dollar of your lunch money." "Why?" "Because that kid didn't get any from his dad, so he's owed a bit of yours." "No way."

[danielxcutter]

If the starting point for goblins compared to other races actually changed things, Thor would have brought that up. He didn't even bother to, though.

What to with the goblins is hard yeah, that point's been brought up. I don't think that the sacking of Azure City was a good thing... but it's already happened.

It sucks and I really really hate that but wiping the goblins there so the Azurites can move back isn't going to solve anything. If the goblin problem isn't solved now, this entire song and dance is going to repeat again a few centuries down the road.

Welfare and stuff is funded through taxes. By definition that means it has to take something from people who are better off and give it to people less fortunate.

Also re: responsibility and such -

And when it comes to dumping stuff on me, well, join the club. Dad wasn't really thinking when he dumped the Blood Oath on us. He didn't mean to, but... that doesn't really matter, does it? It doesn't change anything.

Not intending something doesn't mean that it doesn't absolve them of the blame.

[Crusher]

For starters, Thor basically admitted that 1. the goblins started off with a not insignificant disadvantage which contributed to them being worse off as a whole, and B) that the gods as a whole really didn't do much to prevent that.

So, in our world, it sucks to be an ant. There are tons of them, but individually they're tiny and their lives suck. Yet I bet you haven't done anything to help them.

Sure, that's unfair to you. But you're also being unfair to the gods. The gods agreed that they wouldn't interfere with each other's creation work, and they agreed that once the system was up and running no one would interfere. I'm unclear what exactly Thor is responsible for here.

However, its worth remembering that this is all *Thor's point of view*. Yes, Thor has admitted some uncomfortable truths in the past, but this is still how Thor would like Durkon to see the situation and potentially not precisely accurate.

[danielxcutter]

So, in our world, it sucks to be an ant. There are tons of them, but individually they're tiny and their lives suck. Yet I bet you haven't done anything to help them.

For what it's worth, I do my best not to step on them. Probably doesn't matter much for the argument though.

Sure, that's unfair to you. But you're also being unfair to the gods. The gods agreed that they wouldn't interfere with each other's creation work, and they agreed that once the system was up and running no one would interfere. I'm unclear what exactly Thor is responsible for here.

However, its worth remembering that this is all *Thor's point of view*. Yes, Thor has admitted some uncomfortable truths in the past, but this is still how Thor would like Durkon to see the situation and potentially not precisely accurate.

I, er... I'm getting some mixed messages here. What's your point now?

[Squire Doodad]

However, its worth remembering that this is all *Thor's point of view*. Yes, Thor has admitted some uncomfortable truths in the past, but this is still how Thor would like Durkon to see the situation and potentially not precisely accurate.

I want to emphasize the "not precisely accurate"; we have no reason to believe Thor is intentionally lying, but he might be lying by omission and his descriptions may not be as exact as he'd like.
In other words, Thor is probably giving as close as an accurate answer as he can.

[Aristocles22]

If the starting point for goblins compared to other races actually changed things, Thor would have brought that up. He didn't even bother to, though.

What to with the goblins is hard yeah, that point's been brought up. I don't think that the sacking of Azure City was a good thing... but it's already happened.

It sucks and I really really hate that but wiping the goblins there so the Azurites can move back isn't going to solve anything. If the goblin problem isn't solved now, this entire song and dance is going to repeat again a few centuries down the road.

Welfare and stuff is funded through taxes. By definition that means it has to take something from people who are better off and give it to people less fortunate.

Also re: responsibility and such -



Not intending something doesn't mean that it doesn't absolve them of the blame.

I agree that Fenris and maybe Odin should be taken up on neglect. The other gods seem to have done their jobs well. At least, the good ones. Hard to tell what constitutes a "good job" for the evil gods. Keep in mind that many of the evil gods do far worse things to far more people than Fenris seems to have done with the goblins.

Well, pushing the goblins back from Azure Citywould at least bring things back to a point from which they can negotiate. Unless that new guy (Jirix?) has done a really good job reforming things, the place was basically a hellhole under Xykon and Redcloak. The sooner its occupation ends, the better.

Taxation isn't inherently theft, though. We also have no way of knowing what, when, or how much healthcare will be used and by who at any given time. It's basically an unknown, a hedge against that uncertainty. One day, a given individual may have paid way more into a national healthcare system than he ever took out, and the next day he may fall down a ladder and take out far more than he ever put in. Furthermore, it's not like it's a group-based system of theft- or "forced wealth transfer"- from one group to another. It's not the same thing as taking from one group and giving to another in the name of some historical narrative which can easily be manipulated by people seeking to profit from it.

There's also the matter of rewarding bad behavior, something Durkon himself isn't fond of. Under normal circumstances, he probably wouldn't be suggesting that Azure City be kept by the goblins, but circumstances are dire. If giving up the city would help save all of existence, that's one thing. If giving up the city was done just because the goblins wanted it to make up for their being losers for a long time, that's another. Absent massive reforms, it is clear that the city is suffering terribly under their rule and they don't deserve to hold it for another second. This was made exceedingly clear when we saw what happened to it under the new regime.

Make no mistake: like Redcloak, the goblins and hobgoblins here are a force for evil. Perhaps they were mistreated in the past but that doesn't excuse, justify, or mitigate anything they do now. Maybe the entirety of their species aren't evil and they are not be mindless monsters who are evil incarnate, but if they are like Redcloak or take after him in any way, they are past all reason and have to be treated as such. Force is the only language most of them understand. Just look at what happened when Redcloak was approached for a simple parley. Durkon attempted to reason with him and he nearly died. The best they can hope for is a treaty after this is all over which sees them get more respect in exchange for concessions or failing that, a better role in the next world/a rebuilt version of the current world.

[Nephrahim]

I wonder what fenris thinks of his neglected creation having taken control of azure City now that they're not worshiping him. I bet he's got beef with the dark One.

Like others, I'm very curious to hear why the goblins ended up with the bad land if Thor is telling the truth and they weren't given it on purpose. Did other races take their lands in wars? Did fenris give them bad land to make them more lean because he thought it would help? Did he just neglect to give good land to them while other gods were very careful to improve the land around their other creations?

Thor does acknowledge that this is the God's fault so somehow they did end up with worse resources than other races but I'm still unclear how it happened.

[Squire Doodad]

I wonder what fenris thinks of his neglected creation having taken control of azure City now that they're not worshiping him. I bet he's got beef with the dark One.

Like others, I'm very curious to hear why the goblins ended up with the bad land if Thor is telling the truth and they weren't given it on purpose. Did other races take their lands in wars? Did fenris give them bad land to make them more lean because he thought it would help? Did he just neglect to give good land to them while other gods were very careful to improve the land around their other creations?

Thor does acknowledge that this is the God's fault so somehow they did end up with worse resources than other races but I'm still unclear how it happened.

If I had to guess, either it just happened, Fenris didn't vouch for their starting spot, or Fenris intentionally put them on mediocre land to encourage them to go attack as soon as possible.

[arimareiji]

Also re: responsibility and such -

And when it comes to dumping stuff on me, well, join the club. Dad wasn't really thinking when he dumped the Blood Oath on us. He didn't mean to, but... that doesn't really matter, does it? It doesn't change anything.

So, in our world, it sucks to be an ant. There are tons of them, but individually they're tiny and their lives suck. Yet I bet you haven't done anything to help them.

Sure, that's unfair to you. But you're also being unfair to the gods. The gods agreed that they wouldn't interfere with each other's creation work, and they agreed that once the system was up and running no one would interfere. I'm unclear what exactly Thor is responsible for here.

However, its worth remembering that this is all *Thor's point of view*. Yes, Thor has admitted some uncomfortable truths in the past, but this is still how Thor would like Durkon to see the situation and potentially not precisely accurate.

It seems like there are three questions in play:

1. Did the gods create a system that perpetuates systemic injustice (as danielxcutter points out via Julia, whether they meant to or not doesn't really matter)?
2. If so, do people have any right to call the existence of such a system "wrong"?
3. If the answer to the first two is "Yes", do the gods (or anyone) have any responsibility to make it "right"?

To me it seems that if the answer to #2 is "No", that affirms "Seems like he would've been better served long-term by teaching you to never question the authority of those who created you." (Julia, re: Eugene) and repudiates free will. Doesn't seem like our souls would be very nutritious if that's the case.
And it seems that if the answer to #3 is "No", then so is the answer to #2 and the entire conversation is moot.

[Dragonus45]

Just want to point out, there is no need built in for any particular sentient race to be "the losers". Leaving aside the reality that lots of wars could still happen for any number of other reasons there are tons of chances for leveling and power in things like non sapient monsters and Xykon types or Evil Emperors like Tarquin and such that don't need goblins to be perpetual losers. The god's hands are quite literally tied once things are in motion though and at the end of the day it's the people on the ground who suck and treat goblins like crap for their own stupid non divine reasons, and people on the grounds job to fix it. Redcloak isn't right about ****, and Durkon's offer only looks better and better with this reveal not worse.

[Aristocles22]

I wonder what fenris thinks of his neglected creation having taken control of azure City now that they're not worshiping him. I bet he's got beef with the dark One.

Like others, I'm very curious to hear why the goblins ended up with the bad land if Thor is telling the truth and they weren't given it on purpose. Did other races take their lands in wars? Did fenris give them bad land to make them more lean because he thought it would help? Did he just neglect to give good land to them while other gods were very careful to improve the land around their other creations?

Thor does acknowledge that this is the God's fault so somehow they did end up with worse resources than other races but I'm still unclear how it happened.

Thor acknowledges that it is the fault of a single God, Fenris. I'm not sure why anyone thinks that all of the gods are to blame. Most had nothing to do with any of it. As for how the goblins ended up on "bad" land, we don't know. I suspect this will be revealed later if at all. It may be that the land they were given was no better or worse than anyone else's and they just mismanaged it. I question how the hobgoblins in particular were "disadvantaged" with such a huge army and storied martial reputation behind them. It doesn't seem like a group with that much force could ever be considered disadvantaged.

And to be very honest, this whole talk by so many of groups being "disadvantaged" tends to make one cynical about the concept, but I won't elaborate further, lest it bleed into a real-life discussion. It just seems more and more like an excuse for bad behavior, especially as the worst offenses against said groups recede farther and farther into history.

[Aristocles22]

Just want to point out, there is no need build in for any particular sentient race to be "the losers". Leaving aside the reality that lots of wars could still happen for any number of other reasons there are tons of chances for leveling and power in things like non sapient monsters and Xykon types or Evil Emperors like Tarquin and such that don't need goblins to be perpetual losers. The god's hands are quite literally tied once things are in motion though and at the end of the day it's the people on the ground who suck and treat goblins like crap for their own stupid non divine reasons, and people on the grounds job to fix it. Redcloak isn't right about ****, and Durkon's offer only looks better and better with this reveal not worse.

It would be a very boring game if there was no winner or loser. Assuming resources aren't infinite, there's always going to be a struggle for limited resources in any given world. There can't help but to be winners and losers. Now, there is such a thing as treating all with respect, including those on the losing side of the equation. There's also the fact that a winner one day may be the loser the next. I'd much rather live in a country or a world guided by someone who is realistic than by someone who makes crazy promises and screams at people when the holes in their story are pointed out.

And frankly, when Redcloak dies for good- and I'm sure he will- I'll be very happy. He lost my last shred of sympathy when he tried to kill Durkon, despite the fact that Durkon was being far kinder to him than he deserved.

[Mariele]

I don't think Dion created Africa's ecosystem or the issue of homelessness. Probably.

Let's not make any hasty assumptions, now.

Well, sure. People who read the comic and try to make a good faith effort to interpret the words as the author intended aren’t going to have much to argue about.

That’s why I never read the comic before I start to argue.

It looks like about half the people on here agree with my methods..

Thank you for always giving me a heck of a laugh in these threads.

[Nephrahim]

I'm very curious to see how Gobbotopia is doing these days. We haven't seen it since Redcloak left, have we?

[Aristocles22]

I'm very curious to see how Gobbotopia is doing these days. We haven't seen it since Redcloak left, have we?

I would be surprised if it had a sign over the front gate which read "Under New Management! Now with 50% more torture!"

[danielxcutter]

I agree that Fenris and maybe Odin should be taken up on neglect. The other gods seem to have done their jobs well. At least, the good ones. Hard to tell what constitutes a "good job" for the evil gods. Keep in mind that many of the evil gods do far worse things to far more people than Fenris seems to have done with the goblins.

I mean... have we seen the evil gods do much on-panel besides Hel? Or really, much of the gods at all?

Well, pushing the goblins back from Azure Citywould at least bring things back to a point from which they can negotiate. Unless that new guy (Jirix?) has done a really good job reforming things, the place was basically a hellhole under Xykon and Redcloak. The sooner its occupation ends, the better.

I don't think that's going to happen considering Vaarsuvius plonked the entire fleet near an abandoned island for them to stay.

Taxation isn't inherently theft, though. We also have no way of knowing what, when, or how much healthcare will be used and by who at any given time. It's basically an unknown, a hedge against that uncertainty. One day, a given individual may have paid way more into a national healthcare system than he ever took out, and the next day he may fall down a ladder and take out far more than he ever put in. Furthermore, it's not like it's a group-based system of theft- or "forced wealth transfer"- from one group to another. It's not the same thing as taking from one group and giving to another in the name of some historical narrative which can easily be manipulated by people seeking to profit from it.

Which is why I really, really hate that there isn't really a better solution that's come up yet and probably won't... but at least letting the goblins have the opportunity to be equals to the other races could help prevent another Redcloak.

Also I suppose healthcare wasn't a perfect metaphor, but metaphors usually fall apart if you pick at them too much I guess.

There's also the matter of rewarding bad behavior, something Durkon himself isn't fond of. Under normal circumstances, he probably wouldn't be suggesting that Azure City be kept by the goblins, but circumstances are dire. If giving up the city would help save all of existence, that's one thing. If giving up the city was done just because the goblins wanted it to make up for their being losers for a long time, that's another. Absent massive reforms, it is clear that the city is suffering terribly under their rule and they don't deserve to hold it for another second. This was made exceedingly clear when we saw what happened to it under the new regime.

Make no mistake: like Redcloak, the goblins and hobgoblins here are a force for evil. Perhaps they were mistreated in the past but that doesn't excuse, justify, or mitigate anything they do now. Maybe the entirety of their species aren't evil and they are not be mindless monsters who are evil incarnate, but if they are like Redcloak or take after him in any way, they are past all reason and have to be treated as such. Force is the only language most of them understand. Just look at what happened when Redcloak was approached for a simple parley. Durkon attempted to reason with him and he nearly died. The best they can hope for is a treaty after this is all over which sees them get more respect in exchange for concessions or failing that, a better role in the next world/a rebuilt version of the current world.

...I'm sorry what?

No, not about the treaty part, that makes sense. But treating goblins as a homogeneous group of evil beings who listen to nothing but force is entirely the kind of mindset that's causing half the problems here.

[tanonx]

If I had to guess, either it just happened, Fenris didn't vouch for their starting spot, or Fenris intentionally put them on mediocre land to encourage them to go attack as soon as possible.

Someone probably knows the answer to this, but... do we know what the goblin starting situation actually was? Because those longswords seemed to do just fine against Azurite armor, and that valley of hobgoblins seemed to sustain itself well enough to outnumber them. On top of that, if we're following stats, goblins are comparable, and hobgoblins superior, as a base template. Goblins have been getting hammered on by humans for a while now, but that's demonstrably not a foregone conclusion, even under the conditions that created Redcloak's own resentment.

I feel as though it's entirely possible that the reason Thor doesn't protest the idea is because he just wasn't paying attention to it either way, and is assuming Fenris did what Fenris always does, just because it's what he always does. And, as a result, is taking Durkon's word for it, blaming himself primarily because he feels he should've paid it more mind while he had the chance.

And, in turn, it sounds kind of like Durkon is assuming Dwarven life is better, just because he likes it best. Just like how Redcloak assumes goblin life is awful, because it was to him.

Things get complicated when everyone's not quite right.

[Nephrahim]

The Hobgoblin army did fine against the Azure city army, even if they did need a huge numerical advantage. I'm not sure they would have been able to kill all the paladins without Redcloak and X-Money though.

I wonder how many Goblinoids are in Azure city compared to the rest of the world. I doubt it's the entire population of Hobgoblins, but I bet it's a pretty high number.

[Aristocles22]

I mean... have we seen the evil gods do much on-panel besides Hel? Or really, much of the gods at all?



I don't think that's going to happen considering Vaarsuvius plonked the entire fleet near an abandoned island for them to stay.



Which is why I really, really hate that there isn't really a better solution that's come up yet and probably won't... but at least letting the goblins have the opportunity to be equals to the other races could help prevent another Redcloak.

Also I suppose healthcare wasn't a perfect metaphor, but metaphors usually fall apart if you pick at them too much I guess.



...I'm sorry what?

No, not about the treaty part, that makes sense. But treating goblins as a homogeneous group of evil beings who listen to nothing but force is entirely the kind of mindset that's causing half the problems here.

They've been presented almost entirely as a group which listens only to force. It's regrettable, but that's basically how they've been shown to be. Maybe not the colonel Sanders goblin, but almost all the others. If we had any reason to believe anything else by being shown, not told, that would be one thing. But we haven't, and this is a fantasy world after all. That "sort of mindset" worked quite well for humans and others until the Xykon and Redcloak thing happened, really. It's not something which translates well to the real world, but again- fantasy. I suppose it's the goblin's culture which beat them into that shape, nothing inherent to themselves biologically. These aren't literal incarnations of evil, as I said. They weren't grown for war or molded by magic, nor were they tainted by evil magic since the day they were born. That said, it is totally possible for wicked cultures to spread and take hold, especially when they have the word of an evil or negligent god(s) guiding them. We've seen plenty of vile humans too, but we've also seen more good ones than bad. I suppose its possible that there's a goblin tribe which believes in peace and understanding out there, but we have yet to see it.

Also, Redcloak was probably a one in a million fluke. Most of the events surrounding him, Xykon, the Order, and all the other characters are quite unusual from what we've been lead to believe. As in, unusual on an astronomical magnitude. Even if another goblin with his same mindset comes forth, he won't be in a position to end all reality, either because it's been secured for a time, secured for all time, or reality as we known it came to a sudden and complete halt and he won't come forth at all.

[BriarHobbit]

A significant point from this issue was that there is no divine cavalry to meet Red Cloak's demands. Even if you could get a consensus, the Gods have imposed limits on what they will do to change the world. They are not going to raise a new, resource rich continent only for goblins. It is up to the mortals to solve the problem.

[Nephrahim]

A significant point from this issue was that there is no divine cavalry to meet Red Cloak's demands. Even if you could get a consensus, the Gods have imposed limits on what they will do to change the world. They are not going to raise a new, resource rich continent only for goblins. It is up to the mortals to solve the problem.

I thought about that, but I suspect Red cloak would counter that they might be willing to bend those rules if TDO can threaten them with The Snarl.

[Squire Doodad]

Someone probably knows the answer to this, but... do we know what the goblin starting situation actually was? Because those longswords seemed to do just fine against Azurite armor, and that valley of hobgoblins seemed to sustain itself well enough to outnumber them. On top of that, if we're following stats, goblins are comparable, and hobgoblins superior, as a base template. Goblins have been getting hammered on by humans for a while now, but that's demonstrably not a foregone conclusion, even under the conditions that created Redcloak's own resentment.

We don't know what the Azurite starting situation was, it's been one and a half millennia since the current calendar. Depending on what reading of Thor's description of how long worlds last, the world is probably a few thousand years old. That's far more than enough time for Azure City to be founded, fought over by nobles, unified under a single ruler, descend into feudalism, establish an aristocracy and new lord, become the dominant power in the Southern Continent, become home to one of the high priests of the 12 gods, go on crusades, and be torn to shreds by goblins.
That, in fact, could probably happen in a thousand years. Azure City probably wasn't founded until like 300 years before the new calendar, with there being maybe 7000 years of history before that.

That said, we do know that the Hobgoblin legions were at least not in the valley by Xykon's old tower a few decades ago, but Hobgoblins themselves may have just been a few valleys over for the last dozen centuries.