OOTS #650 - The Discussion Thread

[Andraste]

Maybe this is how The Oracle predicted that Belkar would "cause the death of" Vaarsuvius.

[Dagren]

V should indeed know it well, but the story should not assume the reader does. We have readers that have never seen 3.5, and will get more. So V is ignorant so the reader can be reminded/informed.

True, I just think it would have been better to have someone other than the character who likely has the best spellcraft check in the entire party being the ignorant one.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Maybe this is how The Oracle predicted that Belkar would "cause the death of" Vaarsuvius.

Actually, the Oracle predicted that Belkar would cause the death of the Oracle. It's just that he tried to wriggle out of the predicted death by making up all that specious, phony stuff about Belkar really killing Roy or Miko's horse ....

[DrivinAllNight]

I for one see V going right to Xykon, no matter where he is, why? Because it is an epic teleport spell, I don't think you need to know where they are, just know who you want to go to, and the magic will take you there, hence the epic part of it. I may be wrong on that point, but it makes sense.
My 2cp

edit: I have re-read alot of the posts, and a lot of people seem to think V will teleport into somewhere without Xykon. Seriously, the level of spell being used should easily overcome that possibility right? After all, V was going to use the epic power to go to Haley's location, and that was without knowing it first, or have I just been out of the D&D game too long to know any better?

[Kaytara]

With the teleport... It depends on whether V is teleporting directly to Xykon's location, or just to Azure City in general.

In the former case, Xykon is definitely still in Azure City, otherwise there wouldn't be "turbulence".
In the latter case... possible, I guess, but the former seems more likely, because it means V won't have to waste time searching for Xykon before attacking him.

Actually, the Oracle predicted that Belkar would cause the death of the Oracle. It's just that he tried to wriggle out of the predicted death by making up all that specious, phony stuff about Belkar really killing Roy or Miko's horse ....

Minor nitpick, he didn't make any of that up. Roy and Miko are both dead, you know? And the link to Belkar, while ridiculously indirect, IS there. Same with Windstriker - he IS trapped in Celestia, after all.

In short, there is definitely SOMETHING to link to. The only remaining point is that Windstriker isn't even dead by any normal definition of the word, so odds are V's fate could be something that similarly ridiculously relies on interpretation to count as death.

[Mojique]

Row 4, panel 1

Roy says: "You need to tell HIM..."

We learn: in Roy's eyes V is a "he".

[Conuly]

Minor nitpick, he didn't make any of that up. Roy and Miko are both dead, you know? And the link to Belkar, while ridiculously indirect, IS there. Same with Windstriker - he IS trapped in Celestia, after all.

But he said himself that he "wasn't really buying" his argument - Roy, after all, would still have been dead without that ring of jumping, he just would've been dead on the ground. Xykon is one scary skeleton-thing.

It was his own death he predicted, that's why he went through the trouble of building a town and booking the clerics. He just wanted to try (futilely - how much wiggle room is there in his predictions?) to escape it because it's painful, and presumably because it's a pain in the tush as well.

[otakuryoga]

My gut says V doesn't stand a chance. As roy pointed out Xykon is to smart to be taken down even with V's power.

And in a weird thought I suddenly had. What if the escaped necromancer spirit has gone to meet Xykon and Redcloak? Between the three of them they should have someway of a least communicating if not actually tapping her power. Yeah it's a bit off the wall, but she's been MIA for a good 10 minuites and Xykon is the best way to cause some havoc in the living world.

Plus lich and necromancer? Seems like a match made in someplace other then heaven.

but the necro is lookin for a body to make her own...and as he said previously im not one of those disgusting biophiliacs

[factotum]

It would've been just a waste of space and time to spend several panels with the Cleric saying "resurrection!" before getting to that point.

Well, another point is that the Cleric in that case would have been using Raise Dead, since Shojo had barely had time to cool down before the spell was cast--using Resurrection under those circumstances would be a waste.

[Aquillion]

Actually, I think a V victory is just what the fiends want. Xykon doesn't work for them, and he'd have little incentive to work for them. Sabine, and presumably by extension the Linear Guild, does.

Does she? I don't think we ever found out if she was a demon or a devil. She could actually be working for the other team.

[motub]

I don't think we ever found out if she was a demon or a devil.

Sure, we did; she's a succubus, which is a demon (although she seems to be assigned to report to a different IFCC manager than the one who would be her "natural" boss if we based the manager/supervised relationship on alignment alone). Unless you believe, as some have proposed, that the succubus referred to is somehow not Sabine, even though we saw her remember being tasked with the intelligence-gathering mission by three fiends who look very much like Harpo, Groucho and Zeppo Lee, Nero and Cedrik, which is why she was scrambling to get to the lower planes to report the information she had just acquired about the Gate. Although we never saw her give the actual report, her debrief (which enabled Nale-as-Elan to attempt to seduce Haley, etc) is presumably the report the fiends are referring to, making Sabine the succubus referred to .

[senectus]

Row 4, panel 1

Roy says: "You need to tell HIM..."

We learn: in Roy's eyes V is a "he".

Woohoo!
Can't hide Gender from the spirit world! That seals it! ;-)

[Kaytara]

But he said himself that he "wasn't really buying" his argument - Roy, after all, would still have been dead without that ring of jumping, he just would've been dead on the ground. Xykon is one scary skeleton-thing.

He "wasn't buying" it because he agreed that it was a ridiculous way to consider Belkar's prophecy fulfilled. The facts and connections he outlined, however, are nevertheless true. Please, I don't see why this is so hard to get. The Oracle was trying to convince Belkar that his prophecy had already been fulfilled. He wasn't lying, however, he was just really, really stretching it. So if the Oracle then starts talking about Vaarsuvius, it means there is at least SOMETHING to talk about. Never mind that the connection would have been tenuous at best, it's not the connection that interests us, it's the incident being connected to.

[Charmy]

Row 4, panel 1

Roy says: "You need to tell HIM..."

We learn: in Roy's eyes V is a "he".

We already know that Roy thinks Vaarsuvius is a male. He calls him V-man in one of the earliest strips.

That doesn't mean anything though.

[Jonzo]

Even if V is unable to defeat Xykon, maybe (s)he will manage to destroy Xykon's phylactery, causing Team Evil to flee for the time being.

[Dez]

I predict:

*popp*

"Face your doom Xyk..."

[Greater Sever Soul Splice]
[Epic Desintegrate]

[Ridureyu]

You know, if Haerta has to fuse with someone, why not Tsukiko?

[lothos]

Actually, the Oracle predicted that Belkar would cause the death of the Oracle. It's just that he tried to wriggle out of the predicted death by making up all that specious, phony stuff about Belkar really killing Roy or Miko's horse ....

In indirect and munchin-ish ways, Belkar did cause the death of all of those individuals. The Oracle seems to enjoy stretching language in a sort of game.

I did wonder if the Oracles comment "And as for the Elf" will one way be referred to saying "yes, he caused the Death of V by making a joking comment that they should soon be fighting Xykon.

This comic just keeps getting better and better.

[Underground]

I definitely cant wait for the next comic

[Reclaimer]

If V fails, then yeah. Bad for V.

Bad for V.

Bad for America.

[Igor]

V could become a greater villain than Xykon...

[Calmness]

Man, the subcontractor guys keep getting funnier every strip.

[Dr. Cthulwho]

Might I remind you all of something? Xykon lost to Roy once,

He more lost to the Gate. A bit like The Emperor lost to a giant hole in his throne room. Now if an insta-kill Gate hadn't been at hand for Roy to chuck Xykon into...

...and came within a hair of it a second time (if not for the laws of gravity).

Xykon never seemed in danger on the dragon. He tanked Roy hitting him with a sword specially good against undead so well that he felt confident enough to chat instead of just dealing with Roy easily like he could have.

And he could have. He was well prepared for the eventuality of loosing his dragon. He could have flown up an blasted Roy at any time. So not really coming within a "hair" of loosing. More having a bit of fun till he got sick of it, then putting Roy down hard.

[quote]If V goes charging in there with a Tenser's Transformation and some other combat-oriented spells, I think he has a pretty damn decent chance of coming out of the fight in one piece[quote]

Perhaps, but this is V, it wouldn't really be in character for him to go decide to go mano2mano (Elfo2Licho?) with Xykon.

When the Azurites were trying to bring back Lord Shojo a couple of hundred strips ago, the spell trigger was "resurrect", and they were surprised that it didn't work immediately.

An inconsistency here?

It could be a few things I guess.

Most likely is that we entered into the strip at the end of the 10 minute casting time (no reason to show it). Also the spell trigger in the two cases is different - Resurrect vs. Resurrection.

[Carnivorous_Bea]

But he said himself that he "wasn't really buying" his argument - Roy, after all, would still have been dead without that ring of jumping, he just would've been dead on the ground. Xykon is one scary skeleton-thing.

It was his own death he predicted, that's why he went through the trouble of building a town and booking the clerics. He just wanted to try (futilely - how much wiggle room is there in his predictions?) to escape it because it's painful, and presumably because it's a pain in the tush as well.

Yes, exactly. The Oracle says:

"Yeah .... I wasn't really buying those theories either .... worth a shot tho ...." [Dies]

He knew they were completely false and was just saying any old thing to try to prevent the death he actually foresaw: that is, his own. Note that he even refers to the Roy/Miko/Miko's horse deaths as theories. But there's nothing theoretical about his prophecies -- they're facts.

There's no prophecy regarding Belkar killing V. None. All that stuff was nothing but desperate misdirection designed vainly to prevent the actual prophecy from coming true -- viz., Belkar killing the Oracle.

Even Belkar figured it out. "Wait, you know what? Never mind. He's convinced me, my prophecy HAS come true."

[factotum]

There's no prophecy regarding Belkar killing V. None. All that stuff was nothing but desperate misdirection designed vainly to prevent the actual prophecy from coming true -- viz., Belkar killing the Oracle.

Supporting evidence for this is that all the other theories the Oracle came out with there related to people who were actually dead at that point, whereas we know that V was definitely alive (though not all that well thanks to the lack of trancing). Therefore, ANYTHING the Oracle said next concerning how Belkar had caused V's death would have to be a lie!

[Carnivorous_Bea]

Supporting evidence for this is that all the other theories the Oracle came out with there related to people who were actually dead at that point, whereas we know that V was definitely alive (though not all that well thanks to the lack of trancing). Therefore, ANYTHING the Oracle said next concerning how Belkar had caused V's death would have to be a lie!

Yes, pretty much. Otherwise, the Oracle wouldn't have died. The Oracle's death disproves all the other ones, as far as I can see.

[Conuly]

Therefore, ANYTHING the Oracle said next concerning how Belkar had caused V's death would have to be a lie!

That doesn't actually logically follow.

We know he lied - or at least used serious equivocation and word-twisting, which in my books counts as lying* - about the other two, and we know he did it in order to avoid dying at Belkar's hands. However, that doesn't mean that he would have continued to lie about V - the sentence he didn't get to finish might have ended up being the most straightforward and honest thing he ever said. We have no way of knowing.

At any rate, although I do not agree that "You gave some guy a ring and so caused his death, even though he would've died in pretty much the same way anyway" or "Your evilness caused this girl to snap, which is why she died, so it's all your fault" are reasonable answers to the prophecy (and Belkar really did deserve that refund right up until he killed the Oracle and made the prophecy come literally true), the chain of events did happen as the Oracle said. It's just his self-serving and futile interpretation of those events that's a load of bull.

So we could've gotten a lot of information about how V would ultimately die from the Oracle, and it would all be accurate, but his spin on it would be wrong-headed and silly.

*Look, seriously, if you have homework to do, and your mom asks "Did you do your homework?" and you say "Yes" meaning "Sometime last week, homework got done" but not "I did today's homework", you may *technically* be telling the truth, but she's still gonna ground you. And if the electric company calls threatening to shut off your service, and you tell them "The check's in the mail" meaning that SOMEBODY has sent a check to SOMEONE and that check is in the mail, again, you're technically telling the truth but you'll still be in the dark.

That's the level of linguistic games the Oracle is pulling here. He's using the literal truth to lie and weasel his way out of what he *knows* is gonna happen - and it doesn't work any better than when you lie to your mom or the people at conEd.

Yes, pretty much. Otherwise, the Oracle wouldn't have died. The Oracle's death disproves all the other ones, as far as I can see.

Not necessarily.

I agree that the Oracle's death is the only one (except possibly V's, as V hasn't died yet and we can't pass judgment one way or another) he prophesied that really was caused by Belkar. However, it doesn't have to have been that way.

Belkar could've directly killed Miko, and then have gone on to kill the Oracle for something unrelated, for example, in which case both deaths would have been caused by him. Or, alternatively, he's killed the Oracle and he could still go on to murder V for whatever reason of his own (does he NEED a reason?), in which case, again, both deaths would have been caused by him.

This is unlikely, because you'd think the Oracle would've played his trump card (in three months, you'll stab the elf!) first instead of naming the three much weaker cases and breaking off mid-sentence with V. V's death is probably going to be the one least likely to count as "caused by Belkar" simply because it was the last one mentioned and the Oracle was running out of options.

But the Oracle's death doesn't cancel out V's impending one as being caused by Belkar, nor Roy's (he's getting resurrected, so he's bound to die again someday, right?).

[Kaytara]

He knew they were completely false

Oh, really? I guess I must have just missed all the panels with Roy being alive in the past few hundred comics. Looks like he never died after all, since it was false and all that. XD [/sarcasm]

HOW? How were they false? You guys keep saying this, but you never address the main problem with that statement!

What was FALSE was the consideration that Belkar could be held accountable for those deaths. The events and the connections themselves - the fact that Belkar DID contribute, however insignificantly, to a certain event, and that said event DID happen - are completely true.

and was just saying any old thing to try to prevent the death he actually foresaw: that is, his own.

No, he wasn't saying "any old thing". He was stating facts. The only thing that he himself admitted to be invalid was the consideration that Belkar was responsible for those deaths in a way that meant that his prophecy had already been fulfilled.

Now, mind you, this does not mean V will die. As the example with Windstriker shows, V's fate may not even be what we traditionally consider death. But something will happen to him, and Belkar will have contributed to it by a tiny amount, even if merely by standing there - otherwise there would have been nothing for the Oracle to base his ridiculous claims ON.

EDIT: What Conuly said. ^^ The events were true, it was the Oracle's claim that they fulfilled the prophecy that was false. Nothing more than that.

Besides, the rules of drama and foreshadowing dictate that that remark MUST have meant something. It could, theoretically, be false foreshadowing, but that doesn't seem like it would serve a purpose here.

[Revenant]

You missed my point.

Spoiler

Show

"Turn Undead. (sorta)."
V even looks undeadish with those fangs.

That was your point? V can't be undead, Elan's Mass Cure Light Wounds went off without a hitch.

Fangs and dark clothing do not an undead make. Last I checked, goblins had fangs.

[FatJose]

I didn't read Start of Darkness but I would think Xykon would be very learned in the history and practices of these three (now 2) epic evil casters. Most evil wizards, sorcerors or necromancers in stories get there power from pursuing and researching great spellcasters of the past. No, ALL spellcasters become powerful this way. Its the usual RP backstory for why wizards or sorcerors join parties and then go into spooky dungeons. I would think Xykon being as strong as he is must have come across some of the arcane data these souls left behind simply because if they were so powerful they must have lived on in legends, legends that would have peaked Xykon's curiosity. If this is the case, V may be in a big disadvantage. First thing evil warlocks do when they acquire the ancient tomes of past evil warlocks is learn everything they can from them and then make improvements.