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2020-04-11, 07:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Yeah, that's true. Maybe not even a ring, but the biggest drawback of Meteor Swarm is that even a small amount of fire resistance negates a large amount of damage. Well, that and the typical "allows a save and SR", but that's the case for most blasting spells anyways. And I've heard it's good for blasting large amounts of mooks. I doubt Xykon's fought many enemies that were resistant to both Meteor Swarm and Energy Drain, besides Soon Kim.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
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2020-04-11, 07:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
That isn't happening though. You yourself seem to agree that we cannot lock down a higher specific minimum level for Xykon other than 21; any other number would be a guess at best. And nobody's level is based on a guess.
"21+" does not mean he's level 21. I don't think anyone in this thread believes he's only level 21. Level 21 is simply the highest we can set the floor at the moment.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-04-11 at 07:50 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
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2020-04-11, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2020-04-11, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-04-11, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2020-04-11, 08:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
I think you've slightly misread me here. It's not that we can't lock down what his floor above 21 is, it's just that there are multiple options to pick from. I am open to any of the numbers suggested by people here, which include 26, 27, 28 and 32, with different reasoning. I think the debate should be which of those numbers represents the right floor, and we should then stick a + after it, to indicate it could be higher. To me Level 27 seems the appropriate way to calculate it, in line with how other OOTS characters are getting calculated, but I'm open to any of those other numbers. What I don't really think is fair is to peg him as only 21+, which some people admit they are pushing because it "seems weird" that he'd be so high. What I did say was we can't pinpoint it using his Epic Spells, because the DC is too uncertain to use as a level calculator, but the Epic spells form supporting evidence to back up the other evidence I cited, all of which suggests Xykon being around level 27 or higher isn't inconsistent with the story narrative at all. Quite the reverse.
Again; if V used Quickened Cone of Cold next comic, everyone here would nod and agree he had hit level 17. Xykon's Maximized Energy Drain should get the same treatment. You can construct elaborate scenarios for why both wouldn't apply, but like V (or the examples I gave of Roy or Miko) we shouldn't do that, we should apply Occam's Razor and go with the most likely one until there is evidence to the contrary. The item that grants immunity to meteor swarm and the DC of his Epic Spells also support the Occam's razor approach to him being level 27.
As for the Ring; can this non-epic ring be crafted to provide full immunity to both fire and bludgeoning damage? I'm genuinely not sure, but I'm guessing the answer is no.Last edited by TooSoon; 2020-04-11 at 08:18 AM.
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2020-04-11, 08:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
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Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2020-04-11, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
As I read it, when the meteors miss and explode nearby, you only take fire damage and not bludgeoning damage. In this case the meteors are exploding at point blank range against your body. It feels to me like you'd get bludgeoning damage, but I guess it'd be up to the DM. What level does Xykon need to be to craft an item that grants true immunity to just fire though?
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2020-04-11, 08:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
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2020-04-11, 08:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Like I said, it'd be up to the DM I guess, but personally I feel if something explodes on impact at skin level you were "struck" by it. It's D&D but any vague correlation to real world physics would lead to that result too. If the impact happens at ground zero on your body...
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2020-04-11, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-11, 09:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2020-04-11, 10:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Roy said the sword made him faster; considering that Speed weapons only give the extra attack benefit of Haste I’m willing to headcanon that. :p
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2020-04-11, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2020-04-11, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Back in the day, there was a website called Score Hero. It was to try to find the 4- and 5-star cutoffs in the Guitar Hero games. The way it worked was you took a picture of the song completion screen, which logged your score and stars, and submitted it. There was a floor and a ceiling, and the goal was to raise the floor and lower the ceiling until there was a 1-point difference, which would give you the exact cutoff. This was incredibly difficult to do, as you had to figure out exactly where and how to mess in up very specific ways during the song. But to get the most accurate result, you wanted the lowest ceiling possible and the highest floor possible. Where the floor and ceiling meet is where the actual result lies. Kind of like a much lamer version of the sandwich theorem. The goal was to get the highest floor possible.
21 is the highest floor so far. It is almost certainly not the absolute floor, but we don't know what that is, so that is the highest floor so far.
Also all this reminiscing got me to wonder if the site is still up. It's gone through radical changes, which makes sense since the original mission is long since obsolete, but it still has me recorded as setting the absolute floor on the 5-star cutoff for Crazy On You. I was frighteningly good at Guitar Hero.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-04-11 at 10:54 AM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-04-11, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Nope, the floor is any level we know he's at least that high.
The floor can be set at 1, he started as human, they always have at least 1HD.
The floor can be set at 11, he became a lich, that needs level 11.
The floor can be set at 21, he's used epic magic. That's the highest we can set the floor, because epic casters can do anything with a bit of optimization.
21 is the highest we can set the floor.
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2020-04-11, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-04-11, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-04-11, 11:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2020-04-11, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
The point is that the floor is the lowest. There is no basement in this. The facts do not allow the floor to be set lower then 21. We could theoretically set it lower, if we had different information, or good reason to believe the information we have is somehow misleading.
I agreed with Peelee's original description, however I thought he said it in a potentially confusing way, and we certainly seem to have one confusee amongst us. If we had different information the floor could maybe go up, but at this point in time it needs to be as low as it is.
If you've played a game with a confusing nomenclature that I haven't, bully for you, but that doesn't make that nomenclature correct, no offence intended.The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.
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2020-04-11, 03:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
The funny thing here is I originally wrote that it was the lowest floor and, on re-reading it, thought, "no, that's not right" and changed it.
But yeah the point is to set the floor as high as we can, because that's where the true answer is. The floor is as high as we can get it now. It needs to go higher, but we don't know where to set it at.
The floor is not at its highest ever. It's the highest we can peg at the moment.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-04-11 at 03:07 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-04-11, 09:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Leaving aside the ring for a moment; if V used quickened cone of cold next comic, would anyone seriously dispute V was level 17? I don't see why Xykon doesn't get the same treatment everyone else does.
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2020-04-11, 09:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-04-11, 09:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Sure. V could have an invisible metamagic rod, or an obscure feat, of the same varieties mentioned in the FAQ about Xykon. I chose this hypothetical because it's an apples to apples comparison, unlike other analogous situations (eg Roy/Miko attacks per round, etc). If V would be considered level 17 based on this, shouldn't Xykon be considered 27+?
My view would be 27+ is the most straightforward level for Xykon. The most straightforward, balance of probabilities assumption under Occam's razor being that they used higher slots to cast higher spells.
Since I answered your question, can you please do the same for mine? If V did this next panel, would you personally advocate him being level 17?Last edited by TooSoon; 2020-04-11 at 09:34 PM.
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2020-04-11, 09:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
I don't think there are any ACFs for that. Sudden Quicken or Metamagic Specialist(evocation) could help with that, though. Nobody's going to argue that if V uses a Clenched Fist, though.
I think part of the problem is that since Xykon hasn't had that much screentime actually fighting in a way that shows his feats, we can't pin them down. It's unlikely that all of his metamagic feats are of the Sudden variety, but there isn't enough concrete evidence that they aren't, and that's not how this thread works.
Speaking of which, why does Xykon have Dodge listed as a feat? Why can't that just be Darth Vaarsuvius rolling bad enough on their attack roll to miss?
Edit:
Actually, I wouldn't. Assuming, of course, if V doesn't explicitly mention they have 9th-level slots in that strip. I don't think we're arguing that V using an actual 9th-level spell, such as Disjunction, would still be ambiguous, though.
Personally, I'm not a fan of the "invisible metamagic rod" theory either. The feat theory works good enough for me to accept the possibility, but I don't think it's the most likely scenario. Regardless, there is insufficient concrete evidence to suggest otherwise - just a gut feeling or headcanon isn't enough.
We are not going for "most straightforward" or even "most likely" - we're going for indisputable ranges that cannot be explained in any other way.Last edited by danielxcutter; 2020-04-11 at 09:43 PM.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2020-04-11, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Actually V has already used Clenched Fist. I assume you meant Crushing Hand.
I don't agree Xykon hasn't had enough screentime. He's had tonnes of screen time, and has cast hundreds of spells across the comic and books. We have almost his complete spell list! This idea we can't pin it down I just don't buy at all. I specifically gave a bunch of examples to show how him being level 27+ actually fits with a lot of the other stuff we've seen.Last edited by TooSoon; 2020-04-11 at 09:42 PM.
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2020-04-11, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
Oh yeah, that. I keep getting the Bigby's Hand line confused.
I don't agree Xykon hasn't had enough screentime. He's had tonnes of screen time, and has cast hundreds of spells across the comic and books. We have almost his complete spell list! This idea we can't pin it down I just don't buy at all. I specifically gave a bunch of examples to show how him being level 27+ actually fits with a lot of the other stuff we've seen.
Edit: Oh, and I have been mentioning that Xykon, as an epic Sorcerer, would get bonus feats. Even if we assume that Xykon has three Improved Spell Capacities and Epic Spellcasting as epic feats, he only needs to be level 26+.Last edited by danielxcutter; 2020-04-11 at 09:47 PM.
Cool elan Illithid Slayer by linkele.
Editor/co-writer of Magicae Est Potestas, a crossover between Artemis Fowl and Undertale. Ao3 FanFiction.net DeviantArt
We also have a TvTropes page!
Currently playing: Red Hand of Doom(campaign journal)Campaign still going on, but journal discontinued until further notice.
Extended sig here.
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2020-04-11, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
It's not apples to apples, though; there is a viable ACF (Metamagic Specialist) which can explain a both good deal of Xykon's metamagic abilities as well as his noted lack of familiar. You're choosing to ignore that and focus only on the invisible metamagic rod, which I will completely agree is unlikely.
Nobody, to the best of my knowledge, has been assessed in this thread based on probabilities and assumptions. Kurald Galain may correct me on that, but assuming it is true, then you seem to be advocating for Xykon to get treatment that others don't, if you want probability to be a deciding factor.
Probably, since there is no ACF which would explain both that and another notable feature involving V.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-04-11 at 10:04 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-04-11, 10:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery XVII - When you Wish upon a Stat...
I mentioned the balance of probabilities only because you yourself referred to it earlier.
It's just as possible for V to have an ACF which would explain him being able to use metamagic that he would otherwise need higher spell slots for. We haven't seen any evidence V has it, but we haven't seen any evidence Xykon has it either. He could be doing all his metamagic with higher slots like V has been assumed to. If we're going to treat them both the same, then Xykon should get considered to be level 27+ due to the extra spell slots by the same logic you'd be using to support V.Last edited by TooSoon; 2020-04-11 at 10:03 PM.
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2020-04-11, 10:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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