Class and Level Geekery XI - Can Now Argue Three Times Per Page

[RMS Oceanic]

Unfortunately, we do not have an agreement on the cost of the wormhole power, which restricts the math that can be done.

GW

On that note, what do we think of the idea of "Big Guns" equating "Frequent use of strongest power" and correlating with Laurin's Wormhole spam? Is that too vague?

[Dark Matter]

Unfortunately, we do not have an agreement on the cost of the wormhole power, which restricts the math that can be done.

GW

Can't we call it a homebrew Gate (or that 2e what-its-name gate-ish power) and be done with it? Don't the instant move (teleport, d-door and the like) powers zero your movement?

[SavageWombat]

Nothing in the World will persuade me that in the Story with such astonishing level of details the author hasn't developed the key aspect of character's existance.

Since Rich is merely observing the lives of these adventurers through his interdimensional viewing apparatus, he doesn't need to know any more about the governing physics than the characters.

[Cerussite]

On that note, what do we think of the idea of "Big Guns" equating "Frequent use of strongest power" and correlating with Laurin's Wormhole spam? Is that too vague?

Meaning the base cost of WH would be at least equal to that of the strongest power she displayed?

[RMS Oceanic]

Meaning the base cost of WH would be at least equal to that of the strongest power she displayed?

Almost: The strongest definitive power she has displayed is Disintegrate, a level 6 power. However she was level drained by Durkon and could still manifest it, meaning her level would be at least level 13, and if the previous line of thinking holds, it would suggest Wormhole is a level 7 power for purposes of a minimum level.

[ReaderAt2046]

Almost: The strongest definitive power she has displayed is Disintegrate, a level 6 power. However she was level drained by Durkon and could still manifest it, meaning her level would be at least level 13, and if the previous line of thinking holds, it would suggest Wormhole is a level 7 power for purposes of a minimum level.

Actually, if Wormhole is Level 7, Laurin must be at least level 14, because she manifested Wormhole after being Energy Drained by Durkon.

[zimmerwald1915]

Unfortunately, we do not have an agreement on the cost of the wormhole power, which restricts the math that can be done.

GW

Well, we could do the calculations under the assumption that wormhole, and any other unidentified powers, are 1st level, but that strikes me as not being terribly helpful.

[jhsjhs]

Meaning the base cost of WH would be at least equal to that of the strongest power she displayed?

I figured it just meant she didn't save her points until the end--i.e. you could do what V did to her.

[Chronos]

What one probably could do would be to come up with an absolute maximum number of power points she could have used, and thereby (maybe) get an upper bound on her level. In some ways, this simplifies things, since it means assuming that all unidentified powers are augmented up to her full level (which might even be reasonable for her attack powers, since she wants to get past the saves of a high-level party). Only a few of her powers (such as the Disintegrates, which she used only against an inanimate object and a couple of force effects) can be reasonably assumed not to have been augmented.

[GregTD]

In 920, V says "I retain one additional Fly spell to cast". IE V has 1 Fly spell left. Meaning the V had a Fly spell which was cast earlier. Since 918, when V returned from her trip to Hell, had yet to cast a Fly spell. To extrapolate, there had been 2+ Fly spells prepared, one of which was cast prior to V's temporary imprisonment. If V's spell slots were restored, V would not say "I retain one Fly spell to cast". V would say "I have one Fly spll to cast."

Excellent argument, except that V was flying in 919. As V can't fly naturally, any Fly spell V cast would be in addition to the one on V.

[Codyage]

Excellent argument, except that V was flying in 919. As V can't fly naturally, any Fly spell V cast would be in addition to the one on V.

Yeah, the thing is since V cast Overland Flight on himself at the beginning of the day, that leaves one fly spell left. (The one cast on Haley later.) If the IFCC did replenish spells, that would leave one Overland Flight, and one Fly spell left, while the original Overland Flight from that morning would still be going on.

You could argue that V was being 100% literal by "Fly spell", however since Overland Flight functions like a Fly spell, and they were figuring out trying to escape. I don't see why V would not include an Overland Flight, and cast it on Elan/Haley when the time came.

With that being said, since V does not have a left over Overland Flight(Since it would have benefited in the predicament of trying to escape the army), I think this proves that the IFCC did not replenish V's spells.

[Hecuba]

Can't we call it a homebrew Gate (or that 2e what-its-name gate-ish power) and be done with it? Don't the instant move (teleport, d-door and the like) powers zero your movement?

Only D-Door, and only for the caster (not any passengers).

If you feel it should be modeled directly after an 8 or 9, it should very much not be gate. The fact that gate opens a portal is safely on the lower side of what contributes to its power.

Teleportation Circle is more sound, even if the visuals don't match. There's also an 8th level spell floating around somewhere that is, almost literally, same plane portal that looks like gate (though with a very long casting time). I think it's from something Faerun-related.

Or, we could go with the "2e what-its-name gate-ish power."
Which is, incidently, named Wormhole.


All of this, however, would mean dealing in evidence far more shakey and circumstantial that is common for this thread.
We've recorded characters at a lower level than was likely (or more commonly, not recorded a level) before when there was only circumstantial evidence to the contrary (even when that evidence was very significant).
I agree the discrepency is more pronounced with respect Laurin, and I agree that she is likely in the low epic range.
I just disagree that our response to homebrew should be to make our best guess.

[Codyage]

Only D-Door, and only for the caster (not any passengers).

If you feel it should be modeled directly after an 8 or 9, it should very much not be gate. The fact that gate opens a portal is safely on the lower side of what contributes to its power.

Teleportation Circle is more sound, even if the visuals don't match. There's also an 8th level spell floating around somewhere that is, almost literally, same plane portal that looks like gate (though with a very long casting time). I think it's from something Faerun-related.

Or, we could go with the "2e what-its-name gate-ish power."
Which is, incidently, named Wormhole.


All of this, however, would mean dealing in evidence far more shakey and circumstantial that is common for this thread.
We've recorded characters at a lower level than was likely (or more commonly, not recorded a level) before when there was only circumstantial evidence to the contrary (even when that evidence was very significant).
I agree the discrepency is more pronounced with respect Laurin, and I agree that she is likely in the low epic range.
I just disagree that our response to homebrew should be to make our best guess.

Would it be possible to fine a 2e version of a psionic power in 3.5
Say, if Psionic dimension door existed in 2e. Could we use whatever PP is used in 3.5 as the PP for Wormhole for right now?

[Taelas]

2nd Edition powers are too different compared to 3E.

[Chronos]

To sum up and reiterate, we know that Laurin has a power called Wormhole, and so have listed it on her sheet, but we do not know how much it costs, and so can't do much to use it to calculate her power point total.

[Grey Watcher]

Channa masala.

So, over the course of the strip V's level has gone from "cheeseburger*" to "channa masala". I wonder if Elan's prestige class means he now has fries to go with that soda.

*If at all possible, please read this word in the voice of the machine from the movie version of Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs.

[Dark Matter]

We know everything but wormhole right? And we know how many times it was cast, so just put that.

[Codyage]

2nd Edition powers are too different compared to 3E.

So their is no 2E power at all, with the same, or similar ability in 3.5? Because if they are similar(Only by what the spell does, not how it is created, who can create, it etc.) then we can use the power points from 3.5, as our standard to set Wormhole.

[SavageWombat]

When do we start discussing titles for C.A.L.G. XII? I suspect a Doctor Who reference is in order.

[zimmerwald1915]

When do we start discussing titles for C.A.L.G. XII? I suspect a Doctor Who reference is in order.

If we're going for Who references, we should wait 'til after the Christmas Special ends so we can mine that along with everything else.

Also, it makes more sense to wait until we're actually near page 50 to discuss the next title.

[Hecuba]

So their is no 2E power at all, with the same, or similar ability in 3.5? Because if they are similar(Only by what the spell does, not how it is created, who can create, it etc.) then we can use the power points from 3.5, as our standard to set Wormhole.

The problem is not that there is nothing to compare, but that the system is so different as to require a significant number of judgment calls.

Spoilered response, since this has already been covered to death.

Spoiler

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2nd edition psionics:

• Did not have levels (or rather, had only 2-- both of which were immediately available at 1st level)
• Used Psionic Strength Points, not Power Points (which, while similar, lacked the manifester level cap Power Points usage has).
• Were heavily structured around checks that are kinda-sorta like skill checks, but not really (used the same model as Non-Weapon Proficiencies).
• Had scaling, but often scaled both/either on PSP cost and check result (Wormhole had both).
• Had in an absolute sense, fewer uses per day. This is largely a function of lower bonus Power Points. (The same can be said for bonus spell slots between the editions).

Wormhole in particular is problematic, as it readily filled all same-plane teleportion needs from short range tactical to cross-planet transit (though the later would require a much higher level to make the relevant check and afford the PSP).

The only real exception to this was teleportation when you could not otherwise move: this caused Dimensional Door to retain some important niche utility.

If we assume that it is a direct update of the 2nd ed Wormhole, we are largely limited to establishing a 2nd edition level based on its usage. I did so some time back-- based on that usage alone, and including no other powers used, a 2nd edition psionist would need to be level 18 to match Laurin's Wormhole usage.
Since then, she's added 1 more Wormhole usage and 2 usages of Dimension(al) Door (which is also readily model-able for 2nd ed). That might push it up another level (I haven't checked). The other powers used would almost certainly do so.

But that would all be for a 2nd edition character, which she is not.

[Codyage]

The problem is not that there is nothing to compare, but that the system is so different as to require a significant number of judgment calls.

Spoilered response, since this has already been covered to death.

Spoiler

Show

2nd edition psionics:

• Did not have levels (or rather, had only 2-- both of which were immediately available at 1st level)
• Used Psionic Strength Points, not Power Points (which, while similar, lacked the manifester level cap Power Points usage has).
• Were heavily structured around checks that are kinda-sorta like skill checks, but not really (used the same model as Non-Weapon Proficiencies).
• Had scaling, but often scaled both/either on PSP cost and check result (Wormhole had both).
• Had in an absolute sense, fewer uses per day. This is largely a function of lower bonus Power Points. (The same can be said for bonus spell slots between the editions).

Wormhole in particular is problematic, as it readily filled all same-plane teleportion needs from short range tactical to cross-planet transit (though the later would require a much higher level to make the relevant check and afford the PSP).

The only real exception to this was teleportation when you could not otherwise move: this caused Dimensional Door to retain some important niche utility.

If we assume that it is a direct update of the 2nd ed Wormhole, we are largely limited to establishing a 2nd edition level based on its usage. I did so some time back-- based on that usage alone, and including no other powers used, a 2nd edition psionist would need to be level 18 to match Laurin's Wormhole usage.
Since then, she's added 1 more Wormhole usage and 2 usages of Dimension(al) Door (which is also readily model-able for 2nd ed). That might push it up another level (I haven't checked). The other powers used would almost certainly do so.

But that would all be for a 2nd edition character, which she is not.

All right. My idea was that if Psionic Dimension Door existed in 2E, and a Psionic Dimension Door in 3.5 is treated as 7 points, that would give us a minimum of an ability similar to Wormhole, so we could set Wormhole to 7 points for now, since Wormhole is a slightly better ability than Psionic Dimension Door.

[tomandtish]

Channa masala.

Interestingly, Masala dishes (you choose the specific combination) are item 16 at one of the Indian takeouts we frequent. Hmm...

Me:[/B] Done! Who wants Indian food?

~Fin~

Me! I put in an order for Lamb Masala, Saag Aloo, and some Naan.

Oh, since you were the one who brought it up I had the bill sent to you. Hope you don't mind....

[Kurald Galain]

Channa masala.

Well, that goes in the top post

No, obviously the replenishment didn't happen due to anything relating to the fiends. V's spell slots obviously refreshed due to talking to Belkar. There's precedent: The soul splice involved talking to someone, and that replenished slots, and so talking to someone else could also replenish slots. Obviously, the Giant is using a houserule that halflings can automatically replenish spellcasters' slots by talking to them.

/win

[Novahole]

All right. My idea was that if Psionic Dimension Door existed in 2E, and a Psionic Dimension Door in 3.5 is treated as 7 points, that would give us a minimum of an ability similar to Wormhole, so we could set Wormhole to 7 points for now, since Wormhole is a slightly better ability than Psionic Dimension Door.

There's a slightly different version of Psionic Dimension door in 2E. It makes an actual door and one can walk through it. Should said person walk through, they are disoriented for a round. It's same basic principle, but it might be different enough to regular dimension door

[Hecuba]

There's a slightly different version of Psionic Dimension door in 2E. It makes an actual door and one can walk through it. Should said person walk through, they are disoriented for a round. It's same basic principle, but it might be different enough to regular dimension door

Actually, using DD as a floor would seem to be sound in principle: the devotion-to-power update seems to mirror the update for the spell of the same name. If anything, it would be overly conservative: both Wormhole and DDoor could be taken at level 1, Wormhole was a Science which required the psionist to have taken DDoor as a devotion. Outside of a contrived situation (ex.: converting a character below level 7 between editions), it would be hard to buy Wormhole as lower level than DDoor for base cost.

I considered this method earlier, but the result was clearly lower than we could otherwise demonstrate for Laurin. She's done significantly more manifesting since, however, so it might bear fruit now.

Time to crunch some numbers.

Update: No Dice.

Spoiler

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Using the following assumptions as a conservative floor:

• Minimum cost of 7 for Wormhole
• Power note by Giant as 6th level is 6th level
• No augmentation (since we can't nail down the specific amount that things would need to be augmented)
• A level of 3 for the unspecified attack power

She would have to be 13+ (well, she could be 12 if "I can counter any spell you have left" can be taken to mean countering any single spell before running out of PP). We can already demonstrate that.

We end up needing to nail down augmentation, which places us in the exact same situation we're already in: either we accept a listed level that circumstantial evidence strongly suggests is well below the actual level, or we assign a power level/augmentation cost based on circumstantial evidence and judgment calls.

[Kakuro]

Hate to be off the current topic, but shouldn't Tarquin have whatever it was that granted him fire protection during his first fight with the order listed?.

[Novahole]

Hate to be off the current topic, but shouldn't Tarquin have whatever it was that granted him fire protection during his first fight with the order listed?.

It looks like it was labelled as Evasion instead

[rodneyAnonymous]

It looks like it was labelled as Evasion instead

Note that Evasion is a class ability, not a feat. If that's true, Tarquin can't be a pure Fighter.

[Living Oxymoron]

Hate to be off the current topic, but shouldn't Tarquin have whatever it was that granted him fire protection during his first fight with the order listed?.

That can't be fire resistance, because he wasn't damaged when he was caught in the middle of a Flame Strike (which is half fire damage and half divine damage). Evasion seems the most probable answer to what he did, but there is a small chance of that be Spell Resistance too.