OOTS #1255 - The Discussion Thread

[Fyraltari]

The "cloud-scrapers" bit is a shot at their height.

...
I thought it was because they came in an airship. This makes much more sense.




I have a hard time parsing Serini's slang.

[dancrilis]

Like "airhead"?

Which is seemingly a racial slur (panel 3).

[Fyraltari]

Which is seemingly a racial slur (panel 3).

That one is a joke, though, "airhead" is a real-world insult that has nothing to do with ethnicity, but in-universe it does because there are people that come from the plane of Air.

[dancrilis]

That one is a joke, though, "airhead" is a real-world insult that has nothing to do with ethnicity, but in-universe it does because there are people that come from the plane of Air.

Any insults that Serini has delivered to people due to them not being halflings likely fit into the same general category as jokes - with the extra benefit of not being real world insults (yet/that I know of).

[Worldsong]

Well, she does not necessarily know that Roy is LG (fighters do not have the same alignment restrictions Paladins do) and this is news to Lien. She could decide Roy is lying and Lien just believes him cuz he's a well-intentioned good guy.

I figured that Serini has been spying on them long enough (I think she admitted to that on an earlier page) that she knows Roy is supposed to be LG.

Also, there'd still be Durkon.

Yeah, but so did Mister Girard "Thinks A Paladin Would Violate A Sacred Oath" Draketooth, and we saw how that worked for them.

I figure that she's going to be cynical and paranoid about it for a fair bit longer, and it'll take the Order pulling a "fine, you don't want to help, whatever, we've got a world to save" in order to get it through her skull that these aren't low-level chump NPCs that she can ignore, they're the main heroes.

On the other hand, that's Girard. That's a level of self-delusion and paranoia rarely seen even in fiction.

Yeah, I'm basically hoping that Serini is not quite as paranoid as Girard is, and I think the odds for that are pretty good because Girard was really far over the edge.

Aside from whether she will believe them, there's still a question whether it will change her mind. Someone brought it up in a recent thread

Given her pragmatic preference for a world ruled by evil over the destruction of everything, she may prefer the world being destroyed (but the god remaining to build another, and souls still going to the afterlife) over the destruction of everything (including the gods/afterlife/souls). Especially since she seems to think her chances, or the Order's chances, of stopping Xykon are essentially zero.

True, it's not like her believing them guarantees that she'll agree with them on the best course of action. Although I think that she'll have a harder time convincing herself that letting the world get destroyed is an acceptable sacrifice.

[Peelee]

I figured that Serini has been spying on them long enough (I think she admitted to that on an earlier page) that she knows Roy is supposed to be LG.

Also, there'd still be Durkon.

Dwarves are not angels, they can be non-good just as easily as anyone else.

[dancrilis]

Yeah, I'm basically hoping that Serini is not quite as paranoid as Girard is, and I think the odds for that are pretty good because Girard was really far over the edge.

It isn't paranoia if they are really out to get you - Soon told a whole load of people about the gates, the knock on affect was that one of the people who found out destroyed Soon's gate, another group of people who found out destroyed Girard's gate and the IFCC found out who are moving forward with a plan that seems to involve destroying the world.

Girard was wrong about why Soon couldn't be trusted but he was right that Soon couldn't be trusted.

[Peelee]

It isn't paranoia if they are really out to get you

Nobody was out to get Girard, though, except Xykon and Redcloak, and that was not because of Soon.

[Fyraltari]

Girard was wrong about why Soon couldn't be trusted but he was right that Soon couldn't be trusted.

Girard also told a whole lot of people about the Gates.

[dancrilis]

Girard also told a whole lot of people about the Gates.

Yes but those people didn't blab about it to the forces of the lower planes, didn't destroy any gates, and didn't break the oaths of non-interference - and while it isn't really relevant also didn't murder a whole load of innocent goblins (all as far as we know).

Girard's trust was warranted as for as we know - Soon's was a lot less so.

Edit:

Nobody was out to get Girard, though, except Xykon and Redcloak, and that was not because of Soon.

I wouldn't put it past the IFCC to have known that the dragon targeting Vaarsuvius's family was connected to the Draketooths and to have known that Haerta had a spell that might be helpful.

[Peelee]

I wouldn't put it past the IFCC to have known that the dragon targeting Vaarsuvius's family was connected to the Draketooths and to have known that Haerta had a spell that might be helpful.

A.) The same IFCC that was shown, in privacy, to be quite surprised at familicide being used?
2.) so it's still Soon's fault it a third party uses a different third party who contracts yet another third party? With that much stretching you could pull it all the way back around to Girard being at fault if you wanted.

[dancrilis]

A.) The same IFCC that was shown, in privacy, to be quite surprised at familicide being used?

They seem to play the odds, they might have thought the odds were low - but they then explained that they did think it likely that horrible things would be done.

2.) so it's still Soon's fault it a third party uses a different third party who contracts yet another third party? With that much stretching you could pull it all the way back around to Girard being at fault if you wanted.

Soon told Rhojo/Shojo, Shojo told everyone* - if Shojo had kept his Oath of non-interferance a lot more gates would perhaps be standing and the IFCC would not be up to something with the gates (now maybe it is a good something but that is not the impression I am getting).
*exceptions apply.

Soon trusted the wrong people.

[Peelee]

They seem to play the odds, they might have thought the odds were low - but they then explained that they did think it likely that horrible things would be done.


Soon told Rhojo/Shojo, Shojo told everyone* - if Shojo had kept his Oath of non-interferance a lot more gates would perhaps be standing and the IFCC would not be up to something with the gates (now maybe it is a good something but that is not the impression I am getting).
*exceptions apply.

Soon trusted the wrong people.

1.) They seemed surprised it happened at all. Not surprised that a low odds bet succeeded.
2.) 99% of "everyone" is the paladins, who were told independently of Shojo until Shojo came to power. The only other ones were the Order, and Nale disguised as the Order, which the Order did not catch.

You can claim its not a massive reach all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

[Precure]

Whether the demolition is "controlled" or "rushed" - every dwarven soul is screwed for eternity either way, so she'd have to be okay with that, aka a monster. The only way to prevent that is helping Roy and Durkon so that this world stays intact.

Being in Hel is better than their souls being destroyed. It's similar to how she prefers Xykon-controlled world to destruction.

You know what's funny?

That our heroes are actually pulling a wool over Serini's eyes about the Gods.

Reread the relevant pages of the Godsmoot and the discussion with Thor.

Nothing that is said there there proves that statement ''Once the Gods learn that Xykon started the Ritual, they will immediately destroy the world'' is true.

Change my mind

I also found it weird. There is nothing supports that Xykon or Redcloak's victory mean anything like "we must destroy the world for sure" for the gods.

Loki's comment about "even if the last rift is opened, we would have 10-15 min time in which to destroy the world" is a hint in that direction, IMO.

He was talking about the snarl freeing themself.

[dancrilis]

1.) They seemed surprised it happened at all. Not surprised that a low odds bet succeeded.
2.) 99% of "everyone" is the paladins, who were told independently of Shojo until Shojo came to power. The only other ones were the Order, and Nale disguised as the Order, which the Order did not catch.

You can claim its not a massive reach all you want, but that doesn't make it true.

I will admit I am more inclinded to blame Shojo then Soon - but I suspect that Girard would regard that as something of a distinction without a difference, his confidents after all didn't seem to screw up and cause another gate to be interfered with.

[Precure]

Yeah, it's kinda suspicious that these supposed paladins of good were responsible to and ruled by a hereditay ruler who might be neither lawful nor good. Not to mention most those paladins were Azurite aristocrats until Shojo's reforms.

[Fyraltari]

Being in Hel is better than their souls being destroyed.

I for one would take cessation of existence over constant torture. Your mileage may vary.

Yeah, it's kinda suspicious that these supposed paladins of good were responsible to and ruled by a hereditay ruler who might be neither lawful nor good.

It's kind of a staple of the "Shining Knight" archetype, really.

[bunsen_h]

As a side issue: superhot Venus has lots of water, in clouds. Would it not be possible for life to evolve techniques to condense atmospheric water vapor for use in it's cells, and evolve mechanisms to retain and recycle that water?

Venus's clouds consist mostly of droplets of sulfuric acid, not water. I found a recent paper about whether the water in those clouds could support life. "Here we compute the water activity within the clouds of Venus and other Solar System planets from observations of temperature and water-vapour abundance. We find water-activity values of sulfuric acid droplets, which constitute the bulk of Venus’s clouds, of ≤0.004, two orders of magnitude below the 0.585 limit for known extremophiles."

Trying to get water out of sulfuric acid is hard. The attraction between them is very strong. The classic rule about "never add water to acid, always mix them by adding the acid to the water" comes mostly out of what happens with sulfuric acid, though some other acids are also problematic. Mixing concentrated sulfuric acid with water releases a lot of heat. If water is added to concentrated sulfuric aid, the heat can cause the water globules inside the acid to boil, spraying droplets of hot acid all over the place. If concentrated sulfuric acid is added to water, the heat is more easily absorbed by the bulk of the water. There isn't localized boiling because the boiling point of sulfuric acid is much higher than that of water.

For an organism to condense water vapour in an environment above the local boiling point, it would have to either:
1. extract heat and release it to the environment, to keep itself cool enough for liquid water, or
2. maintain an internal pressure high enough to keep the water liquid.

The former is a problem because heat would be continuously flowing in from outside. It's hard to keep things cool in that kind of situation; it takes a lot of energy. On Earth, small organisms have no way of doing it. Large organisms can keep themselves somewhat cooler than their environment, under some conditions... generally, by letting water evaporate from them. That is, the exact opposite of what you want.

The latter is a problem because it takes a lot of pressure to make much of a difference. Maintaining the integrity of an organism, with a high pressure differential from the environment, would require a very strong outer shell with no leaks or weak points. I can't see how that would work.

[Peelee]

I for one would take cessation of existence over constant torture. Your mileage may vary.

Seconded.

Venus's clouds consist mostly of droplets of sulfuric acid, not water.

Psh. That's just salt water with extra steps.

Trying to get water out of sulfuric acid is hard.

Psh. Let's just take a bunch of baking soda and make the solar systems biggest 5th grade science project.

[bunsen_h]

I for one would take cessation of existence over constant torture. Your mileage may vary.

For me, there's a crucial variable: is there hope of eventual release?

Psh. Let's just take a bunch of baking soda and make the solar systems biggest 5th grade science project.

We know that Venus has lots of volcanoes. So...

[danielxcutter]

For me, there's a crucial variable: is there hope of eventual release?

Actually yes, due to how the D&D afterlife works.

[137beth]

Wow I am more than a day late, so I'll just say I'm really happy to see Durkon getting practice convincing antagonists to switch sides.

[dancrilis]

I for one would take cessation of existence over constant torture. Your mileage may vary.

As eternal torture goes Hel doesn't seem that inventive.
Panel 1: carry a big stone.
Panel 2: clean a chair., also see panel 6 where they get to just walk away.

It seems if you don't personally get on Hel's bad side it is merely unpleasant and boring, if you do get on her bad side it is unpleasant and boring and you have a disease (panel 3 and 4).

As eternal torments go I can imagine worse.

[bunsen_h]

Actually yes, due to how the D&D afterlife works.

To clarify: is there hope of release to a more positive existence? If the only options are
(1) immediate annihilation of my personality,
(2) an extremely long period of torture, with no release other than eventual destruction of my personality

I'd look more seriously at the first option.

If the torture is more like a [EDIT: precautionary removal of explicit real-world religion stuff. A "burning out of sins, leaving a purified soul"] thing, a period of suffering followed by release into one of the positive outer planes, it would be easier to bear the torture.

[Quizatzhaderac]

As eternal torture goes Hel doesn't seem that inventive.

I imagine the Rich just isn't that enthusiastic about showing the horrible torture of background characters.

And even if he was, one can't expect the entire audience to handle it stoically, so this is arguably a good time for "tell, don't show".

[masamune1]

I wouldn't say Redcloak's issue was paranoia honestly - and not just because a lot of beings really do have it out for him and his patron.

Real paranoia isn't about whether or not the fears are objectively real (not least because they can become a self-fulfilling prophecy- like, say, when you are literally threatening to destroy the world if you don't get what you want and others are out to get you for it). Redcloak is a pretty textbook example of Paranoid Personality Disorder (and probably some narcissistic and maybe sociopathic tendencies), mixed with having way too much power and ability to act on his beliefs.

A crude description of PPD according to the ICD-10, for example- bolded for symptoms he arguably demonstrates:

PPD is characterized by at least three of the following symptoms:

1) excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs;
2) tendency to bear grudges persistently (i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights);
3) suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;
4) a combative and tenacious sense of self-righteousness out of keeping with the actual situation;
5) recurrent suspicions, without justification, regarding sexual fidelity of spouse or sexual partner;
6) tendency to experience excessive self-aggrandizing, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;
7) preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large.

[Fyraltari]

For me, there's a crucial variable: is there hope of eventual release?

If my understanding of OOTS/D&D cosmology is correct, eventually Hel consumes your entire soul and you dissipate into her.

As eternal torture goes Hel doesn't seem that inventive.
Panel 1: carry a big stone.
Panel 2: clean a chair., also see panel 6 where they get to just walk away.

It seems if you don't personally get on Hel's bad side it is merely unpleasant and boring, if you do get on her bad side it is unpleasant and boring and you have a disease (panel 3 and 4).
As eternal torments go I can imagine worse.

You assume that the dwarf souls that attend to Hel personnally are average, when I find it more likely that they are the lucky ones.

Also, they don't get to just walk away in panel 6, she's given them some sort of pox in panel 4.

Also also, an existence of nothing but unpleasantness, even if just mild unpleasantness, is worse than oblivion in my opinion, since oblivion is the most neutral experience conceivable.

[I]PPD is characterized by at least three of the following symptoms:

1) excessive sensitivity to setbacks and rebuffs;

Considering that, so far, four out of the five attempts he gets to complete his life work have failed, I'd say he's taking it very well.

2) tendency to bear grudges persistently (i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights);

I don't really think that applies, unless you count his anti-hobgoblin racism.

3) suspiciousness and a pervasive tendency to distort experience by misconstruing the neutral or friendly actions of others as hostile or contemptuous;

I don't think that applies either. Remember, he didn't come up with the "the gods deliberately screwed us over" narrative, he is, quite literally, taking it on faith from someone he considers a reliable source.

4) a combative and tenacious sense of self-righteousness out of keeping with the actual situation;

Oh, yes. 100%

6) tendency to experience excessive self-aggrandizing, manifest in a persistent self-referential attitude;

I don't know, on the one hand his behaviour is pretty self-effacing, on the other hand, everyhting he does is about making himself feel better less bad, even if he doesn't realize it.

7) preoccupation with unsubstantiated "conspiratorial" explanations of events both immediate to the patient and in the world at large.

As with 3, I don't think that applies.

[masamune1]

Considering that, so far, four out of the five attempts he gets to complete his life work have failed, I'd say he's taking it very well.

Killing his own brother to prevent another setback does not count as taking it "very well".

I don't really think that applies, unless you count his anti-hobgoblin racism.

I count his anti-human racism and his massacring a whole city in revenge for what a few Paladins from that city did to him.

I don't think that applies either. Remember, he didn't come up with the "the gods deliberately screwed us over" narrative, he is, quite literally, taking it on faith from someone he considers a reliable source.

It doesn't matter if the paranoid person considers their source to be reliable; it doesn't even matter if they ARE reliable. What matters is how fixated they are on it and how it causes them to see other people. The vast majority of paranoids don't come up with their beliefs all on their own.

Oh, yes. 100%

I don't know, on the one hand his behaviour is pretty self-effacing, on the other hand, everyhting he does is about making himself feel better less bad, even if he doesn't realize it.

Yes, that's an example of the self-centredness of the paranoid; another is not really caring about things that they don't identify with or don't relate to, which we see in his obsession with the rights of goblins but indifference to the rights of pretty much anything else.

As with 3, I don't think that applies.

Thinking that the gods themselves intentionally screwed over his entire race and are trying to thwart him and his god primarily to preserve the unjust status quo is an example of that- again, just because HE considers the source reliable doesn't make it so, and he refused to even consider that the Dark One might be lying / wrong when his brother brought it up.

[Psyren]

Even if any of us have the psychiatric chops to accurately diagnose the mental disorders of a fictional stick figure character in a fantasy comic, attempting to do so could be insensitive to anyone who might actually suffer from those symptoms in real life, yeah?

Being in Hel is better than their souls being destroyed. It's similar to how she prefers Xykon-controlled world to destruction.

Discussing my views on this in depth can quickly lead us down a prohibited path of philosophy/religion so I'm going to just second Peelee and Fyraltari.

Actually yes, due to how the D&D afterlife works.

In OotS/D&D, the "release" in this case is essentially identical to oblivion so I would actually say yes and no. Yes if you get raised before you're fully "absorbed" and merge with the plane, No if you don't. At least, if keeping the same identity you had as a mortal is important to you.

[Fyraltari]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Killing his own brother to prevent another setback does not count as taking it "very well".

Spoiler: Sod

Show

That's not why he killed him. He killed him, because he couldn't accept he let xykon kill goblins and has nothing to show for it.

I count his anti-human racism and his massacring a whole city in revenge for what a few Paladins from that city did to him.

That doesn't follow. You're counting a desire for indiscriminate revenge over one of the most traumatic event one can live through as a " tendency to bear grudges persistently (i.e. refusal to forgive insults and injuries or slights)" but it's a singular case, not a pattern and it's of much greater intensity than what is described here. Had he such a tendency, he wouldn't let the demon-roaches mock him that much, for example.

It doesn't matter if the paranoid person considers their source to be reliable; it doesn't even matter if they ARE reliable. What matters is how fixated they are on it and how it causes them to see other people. The vast majority of paranoids don't come up with their beliefs all on their own.

But again, it's not a pervasive tendency. It's hard to tell because he almost only ever interact with people who are genuinely hostile (or toxic) to him. But for example

Spoiler: start of darkness

Show

When his brother abandonned the plan and later tried to convince him to do so as well, he recognized Right-Eye's actions as what they were, and did not distort them as hostile.

Likewise with Jirix getting preferential treatment from both Xykon and the Dark One. You'd expect someone with a tendency to misconstruct others' actions as hostile to think Jirix was trying to take hisnplace or something.





[spoiler]Thinking that the gods themselves intentionally screwed over his entire race and are trying to thwart him and his god primarily to preserve the unjust status quo is an example of that- again, just because HE considers the source reliable doesn't make it so, and he refused to even consider that the Dark One might be lying / wrong when his brother brought it up.

Yes, but one thing does not make a pattern.


Edit: At the end of the day, I don't think The Giant intended for Redcloak to suffer from paranoia and his behaviour can easily be explained without using that diagnosis, so I choose not to read him that way. Your interpretation is no less valid than mine, but like Psyren says, maybe it's best not to try to psycho-analyse fictional characters.