OOTS #1229 - The Discussion Thread

[hroþila]

If that was the case, then there would be a stronger argument for destroying Girard or Soon's gate over letting Xykon take it. If Xykon takes it, the world gets destroyed. If the gate gets destroyed, there's always another one.

Clarification: This does not apply to the last gate, obviously, but it does explain destroying the previous gates.

There is a stronger argument, yes, but a possibility is not a certainty. It is often assumed that the gods will automatically pull the plug if the ritual succeeds, but that's not necessarily a sure thing. We don't know that the gods have a protocol for something that's unprecedented.

[Fish]

All of the discussion about whether the Order can or can't defeat Xykon leaves out one potential scenario: Redcloak. The Order could definitely defeat Xykon if Redcloak were helping them. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to think of a scenario where Xykon and Redcloak turn on each other, either.

Re: clerics researching new spells. Presumably, all spells in the standard book were researched and invented at one point, yes? I mean, unless we're presuming that the very first world created by the very first gods had a standard spell list baked in.

[ebarde]

I still am struggling to wrap my head around Xykon's part in the endgame of the comic, I really don't see it just being "Welp, I guess my whole plan was a lie so I'll just kill everyone now". Like, he's the big bad of the comic, and it would be weird if he didn't really had an achievable scheme or win condition of some kind.

[bunsen_h]

That’s how the gods feel!

I mean, another gate won’t be on this world. This world will be destroyed. But this isn’t the last gate. There will always be more prisons for the snarl.

They can always make more prisons... for some value of "always", assuming that the Snarl never gets out of control so quickly that they don't have the reserves of worship-power to survive the interregnum. But the current world/prison has the unprecedented potential to let them permanently bind the Snarl, thanks to the new quiddity of the Dark One. That raises the stakes, and gives them a stronger reason not to let this world be destroyed than for any of the gazillion previous worlds.

[elros]

Honestly, I'm really hating Serini with each new page here. This is a credit to Rich I guess making a character feel real despite acting so insufferably infuriating.

Everyone has made compelling cases as to why what she's doing makes sense based on what she knows. But even on the logic of letting an evil overlord take over instead of letting reality come undone, it comes across as evil at worst or just plain apathetic/neutral at best. She is doing things on her own, thinks she knows best, and will probably just make things worse, just like her fellow Order fo the Scribble teammates. And as we've seen time and time again in TOotS, that hubris always comes to bite the ass down HARD.

So far Serini has successfully kept Team Evil from getting anywhere close to the final gate. Even knowing what is at stake, OOTS is not doing a great job of keeping the final gate safe. If OOTS had not come around, Redcloak would not have realized that the doors were marked incorrectly.
Besides, if Xykon and Redcloak reach the final gate, it is more likely that Redcloak will be able to give control of the gate to the Dark One, and not Xykon that rules the world. And Serini may actually be sympathetic to the Dark One, because she agrees that certain species are treated poorly in this world.
I think the best outcome is Serini and Redcloak talk, because she is more likely to convince him to work with the gods than anyone else.

[arverst_aegnar]

While she has a point, i think Serini is missing (or ignoring) that the paladins have a point, too. The question of "destroy the Gate or let Xykon have it", especially when talking about 2 or 3 of 5, is not an objectively binary, good/evil, right/wrong one. That life under Emperor Xykon would be better than destruction does not make it not abjectly terrible. Her comment about monstrous races seems a bit shortsighted too in light of a) Xykon's attitudes towards anyone not named Xykon, and b) injustice redirected is not really an improvement. Serini disagrees with the paladins'/Order's decision to stake everything on the last confrontation, which is fine. She seems to think it's so clearly the right choice that she doesn't need to hear their side, which is not.

If i lived in the OOTS verse, i don't know that i'd take the "someone will eventually defeat Xykon" gamble. The universe may run on Narrativium, but tragedy and cosmic horror are legitimate narratives, and only a third of the gods are explicitly Good.

[bunsen_h]

So far Serini has successfully kept Team Evil from getting anywhere close to the final gate. Even knowing what is at stake, OOTS is not doing a great job of keeping the final gate safe. If OOTS had not come around, Redcloak would not have realized that the doors were marked incorrectly.

It's a good bet that as soon as they ran through enough of the doors that they were hard to keep track of, if any of the other doors were actually connected to the gate, Serini would have marked it/them too.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think the strip suggests that Serini didn't scry or observe the Gates; she believes the paladins are responsible for the destruction of all of them (which makes sense.

No, it doesn't make sense. Lirian's gate was destroyed well before the gate in Dungeon Crawling Fools was. Serini's blaming it all on Paladins is one place where she's simply wrong.

And of course Serini doesn't know about Redcloak's Plan -- because only two people on earth know it, and the only reason the Order knows is because a god directly told it to Durkon.

Yep, her partial information does pose some problems.

I'm pretty excited to see where Punisher Frodo goes.

Heh, that made me laugh.

Isn't someone trying to topple Xykon when he had control of a gate how this whole thing(OotS not the prequels) started in the first place? That doesn't seem like a good premise on which to base the security of the WHOLE FRICKING WORLD! :)

Best of luck getting anyone 'in-universe' to listen to you, though. They have their own agendas.

Serini is counting on Xykon being incompetent and chaotic enough to eventually lose, but competent and careful enough to be trusted not to blow up the gate.

When you put it that way, it's not a very comforting thought for the rest of OoTSland.

Because that really is what is going to happen. She’s figured it out correctly. The gates (and the rest of the world) really will be destroyed to prevent Xykon and Redcloak from taking control and performing their ritual. What she doesn’t know - the missing piece of information - is she doesn’t know WHO is going to destroy the gates. She thinks it’s paladins or adventurers or whatever. She’s wrong about who. All of the gods, working together, are planning to destroy the gate (and the rest of the world along with it) to prevent Xykon from taking control. And she’s not going to prevent that with her amnesia potions.

Not a bad take on the situation.

She is doing things on her own, thinks she knows best, and will probably just make things worse, just like her fellow Order fo the Scribble teammates. And as we've seen time and time again in TOotS, that hubris always comes to bite the ass down HARD.

Why on OoTSearth would epic level characters be subject to hubris?

All of the discussion about whether the Order can or can't defeat Xykon leaves out one potential scenario: Redcloak. The Order could definitely defeat Xykon if Redcloak were helping them. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to think of a scenario where Xykon and Redcloak turn on each other, either.

Someone a bit more adept at diplomacy than Durkon, such as Haley, might need to try their hand at making another run at Redcloak once {something} happens.

This just gave me a thought.

Spoiler: sod moment

Show

MiTD eats Redcloak.

(per Xykon's plan)

The gods can't control the snarl. The PCs, at the end of this story, decide that the gods will never save them, nor save their world. And so the whole Order goes off after they defeat Xykon and IFCC - each to their separate parts of OoTS world, and they dedicate the rest of their lives to making OoTS-world a fairer, better world one heart and mind at a time.

Unlike the Scribblers, the Order in their post-adventuring career never stop working towards that end - a fairer, better OoTS world, as long as they draw breath.

Because that's how lasting change happens. Somebody has to care, and one of the things that makes Roy our Hero for this story is that He Cares.

[TRH]

Well, if we go back to the old framework where the Scribblers all fail to protect their gate because they were too confident that they had constructed the perfect defense, what do we do now, when it's clear Serini isn't confident at all that she can keep hers safe in the long run? If the others had faith that they could keep their Gates out of enemy hands, her closest equivalent conviction is that losing the Gate isn't the worst thing that could happen. So we'll need to be ready for a reminder of exactly how wrong that is, I guess.

[KorvinStarmast]

So we'll need to be ready for a reminder of exactly how wrong that is, I guess.

We won't. She will.

[Ionathus]

When you put it that way, it's not a very comforting thought for the rest of OoTSland.

I doubt Serini actually thinks Xykon will be either competent or careful with the gate. She's probably just thinking that he'll be EVEN LESS careful of collateral damage if there's a fight to be had.

[Deepbluediver]

She's a good and decent person,

Is she though? She's willing to bet that a chaotic-evil lich is willing to limit his destructive tendencies AND that he'll eventually be taken down (cause he certainly won't die of old age), rather than work with people to actually try and stop him. She's assuming that she understands the circumstances better than the Paladins, but she's wrong, so she's displaying the same sin of pride (or maybe self-righteousness). And she says the other characters have had 4 shots, but she clearly saw what was happening and yet has done nothing to stop it up to this point.

[Fish]

Someone a bit more adept at diplomacy than Durkon, such as Haley, might need to try their hand at making another run at Redcloak once {something} happens.

In my thread on the order of endgame events, I postulated on the combinations and sequences of various things that could happen, and which things entailed (or excluded) others.

I have a feeling that the order of events will go something like: Xykon and Redcloak cast the spell, the Dark One takes control of the Snarl and starts killing gods, Redcloak realizes that the Dark One never cared about the Plan at all,, and Xykon and Redcloak turn on each other.

Frankly, the worlds are a mess because and it's the gods' fault. I rather think some of them will have to pay the price for their mistakes.

Because that's how lasting change happens. Somebody has to care, and one of the things that makes Roy our Hero for this story is that He Cares.

Ray is kind of the anti-Soon, really. He's Lawful Good, but he's flexible enough to work with what he's got.

For that matter, Kraagor is the anti-Durkon — a low-IQ dwarf barbarian. Serini is the anti-Belkar (a halfling with a conscience). Girard is the anti-Elan. It's rather interesting storytelling, really.

[Yirggzmb]

She's insane.
She thinks she can erase the memories and destroy every record ON THE PLANET of the heroes' quest? The Order of the Stick have left a lot in their wake.

But if her plan is to simply erase their knowledge of ever being at the Tomb and make them think that they found nothing, the coordinates were wrong, and they need to look somewhere else, that might work. They'd still be in their quest, but they'd be wandering off somewhere else.

Her goal is to keep them away from the gate. If they're bumbling around somewhere else, they're away from the gate.

[HalfTangible]

Re: clerics researching new spells. Presumably, all spells in the standard book were researched and invented at one point, yes? I mean, unless we're presuming that the very first world created by the very first gods had a standard spell list baked in.

That's definitely the case with arcane spells.

For divine? The domain agreement states that you need to have your access to other gods' domains limited and well-defined.

[russdm]

I feel like Serini had a chance to check her knowledge and passed it up in poor decision making that...

O-Chul tells her that he made the choice to destroy Soon's Gate. That is the oath he made when he joined the Sapphire Guard and became a Paladin too (partly) yet, he is still a paladin.

So, either the Gods that Soon also followed, don't see O-chul deciding to destroy the gate as a violation of the oath and strip him of his paladin status, meaning they supported his decision

or

O-Chul lied about being a paladin and is still lying.

Since O-Chul is still a paladin, and is said to have been wiling to kick over the game board by Serini, the Gods clearly support destroying the gate before allowing Xykon to have it. Serini never asks over that, despite knowing Soon.

This set of facts, that the Gods improve of destroying the Gates would give me at least pause, in being in her shoes, and consider if I didn't know everything.

So, Serini, like the rest of the Scribblers except Soon, clearly feel that their judgement fully correct and that they employed good judge of character. That is apparently wrong, since Soon never broke the oath about telling others about the Gates and also about any of the important details that protecting the gates would have been good to share. They each made the defense of their gates and there was a fatal flaw in each one.

1) Lirian's Gate was tied to nature and in a way that Fire was able to destroy. This is despite the fact that Fire (Forest fires) are a very important and natural part of the cycle of Nature.

2) Dorukan's Gate was protected by Wards/Runes/Spells/etc, and the gate was destroyed due to Elan touching the self-destruct glyph. That may or may not have been predictable thing.

3) Girard's Gate was defended through illusions, trickery, and his own family. The Gate fell because all of the family members were killed, the illusions were then dispelled, and there was no backup plan for if the family wasn't there, due to someone getting upset on how Girard apparently encouraged the continuation of the family and finding them, attacking them, etc. This before V's little wipeout.

4) Soon's Gate was defended by the living and the dead Sapphire Guard, along with Azure City. At the end, Miko fell and also destroyed the Gate. After the city being conquered, and Miko have decided to go nearly pre-suit Darth Vader Style.

5) Serini's Gate is defended by "Might" - Strength of combat/monsters, and included the teleport traps. It will probably be destroyed due to the fact the Xykon will power through things to find it.

Neither did any of the Scribblers make a plan for if one the Gates were destroyed what to do. None of the others were willing to setup things for Soon to do anything about it. Each of the others accepted the oath, then promptly broke it. Yet, Soon was viewed among them as most likely to break that oath. by the others to varying degrees.

I think that we can easily call the Scribblers a failed version of the Order of the Stick.

So, that means, I think that the Order might find themselves having to create new gates to defend themselves and have to figure out how to do it. Unless the Gods (Thor + Quiddity) can seal and remove the rifts.

Before the Stickverse goes and we get introduced to the next one.

As for Serini, I don't perceive any circumstance that she would stop to listen and stop to actually considering to help sway RC. Like the other Scribblers, including Soon, she has to much faith and believe in how un-wrong she could be to consider anything else. I don't see her stopping until she is practically standing next to Xykon as he takes the gate over.

I very much see her working to completely oppose the OotS to the bitter end, and not changing her mind or being willing to despite the OotS trying to.

[Fish]

For divine? The domain agreement states that you need to have your access to other gods' domains limited and well-defined.

Having well-defined access to domains (eg, fire) is not exactly the same thing as having pre-defined access to a standard spell table.

[Edward15]

Yeah, her amnesia potion [mind-effecting] will work great on the Undead. Oh, wait, maybe she can use another dart with CON-draining poison.

To (probably miss) quote Eugene, Oh, you could stick a sword through his ribs. Oh, wait, skeleton!

None of that has anything to do with what I said. I think you quoted the wrong post.

[HalfTangible]

Since O-Chul is still a paladin, and is said to have been wiling to kick over the game board by Serini, the Gods clearly support destroying the gate before allowing Xykon to have it. Serini never asks over that, despite knowing Soon.

This set of facts, that the Gods improve of destroying the Gates would give me at least pause, in being in her shoes, and consider if I didn't know everything.

The gate was destroyed by a fallen paladin.

Having well-defined access to domains (eg, fire) is not exactly the same thing as having pre-defined access to a standard spell table.

"Well-defined access to domains" = "spells"

[Dion]

If i lived in the OOTS verse, i don't know that i'd take the "someone will eventually defeat Xykon" gamble.

I would take that bet in a heartbeat. He’s eventually going to get bored kicking around the meat bags and wanders off to the astral plane.

I’d put the over/under at 2,000 years of misery, darkness, death, and despair, tops...

[Peelee]

That's definitely the case with arcane spells.

Is it? Im a world that has sorcerers who are born with the ability to cast arcane spells, I doubt such people would be prohibited to only spells that other unrelated people invented. I'd imagine the majority of Wizard spells were the result of seeing a sorcerer cast them, figuring it must be possible to do, and figuring out how to manufacture that effect. And then a few invented ones by Tenser or Mordenkainen or so.

[arimareiji]

What we know is not necessarily what Serini knows. You correctly point out the paladins will 100% guaranteed not blow ghid Gate. Serini correctly points out she has no reason to think that.

^ This bears repeating.

This is pretty much a parallel debate to the one we had on this thread. You asserted that X is impossible, and then I put forward an example where X happens, and then you said "that's not relevant." Except it is.

Unfortunately the root problem is to the potential for productive discussion, as the Dark Side is to Jedi.

Spoiler: video, collapsed for space

Show

"If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny -- consume you it will."

But, separating my personal feelings from the situation, I'm saying that Serini's viewpoint (Xykon ruling the world for a period of time is preferable to eternal oblivion) is not logically flawed, even if I disagree with her philosophy and outlook. You seem to believe that Xykon would be unstoppable forever once he had control over the Snarl, despite no conversation or demonstration to that effect anywhere in the comic. If I've misinterpreted you, I apologize, but that point seems to be where we disagree.

Completely agreed wrt Serini's logic. Given what she knows at present^*, imo she'd actually be a fool to feel otherwise.
* - I'm pretty sure that'll change soon, and the forum will have to find something new to wild-mass-guess about. (^_~)

The problem is what she doesn't know: It's completely moot whether a Xykon-dominated world is preferable to the literal end of the world. The ritual doesn't give Xykon control over anything, it gives TDO control over the Snarl's location. And that's only if^** the gods don't instantly pull the plug once they start the ritual.
** - Imo, there's absolutely zero chance they would hesitate or negotiate. When it comes to <TDO being able to dump the Snark in any sanctuary they retreat to>, whether TDO would use that ability or not is irrelevant. They'll nuke the world rather than let him have the ability.

[The MunchKING]

Serini has absolutely no way to KO half the party in a surprise round.

Now that I think about it, don't Light Crossbows have a reload time, so you can't just get all 4 attacks or whatever a round?

Has Xykon researched or cast any custom spells? Has he invented any?

Xykon's Moderately Escapable ForceCage. But also to learn/cast Epic spells you need one of the Knowledge spells at 24. Xykon is an Arcane caster, so it's Knowledge Arcane.

[HalfTangible]

Is it? Im a world that has sorcerers who are born with the ability to cast arcane spells, I doubt such people would be prohibited to only spells that other unrelated people invented. I'd imagine the majority of Wizard spells were the result of seeing a sorcerer cast them, figuring it must be possible to do, and figuring out how to manufacture that effect. And then a few invented ones by Tenser or Mordenkainen or so.

Wizards, by necessity, must study and learn spells. That's pretty much the entire definition of the wizard class. And unless I'm misremembering Sorcs and Wizards have identical spell lists in 3.5e. Which means that even if a spell was first cast by a sorcerer, it has by definition been researched and turned into a spell wizards can cast.

[Sapphire Guard]

Setting aside narrative convention, I think Serini is probably correct here.

The Order has no notable plan to deal with Xykon, other than attack and hope for the best. If you don't know they're the lead characters in a longrunning comic, why should she have any faith in them? It's not like they have a good record on dealing with the gates, or Xykon, or much else. We know they have good intentions, but successful? Not really.

The defenses surrounding Dorukan and Girard's gates were weakened by the order getting involved, what's different this time?

[HalfTangible]

Setting aside narrative convention, I think Serini is probably correct here.

The Order has no notable plan to deal with Xykon, other than attack and hope for the best. If you don't know they're the lead characters in a longrunning comic, why should she have any faith in them? It's not like they have a good record on dealing with the gates, or Xykon, or much else. We know they have good intentions, but successful? Not really.

The defenses surrounding Dorukan and Girard's gates were weakened by the order getting involved, what's different this time?

Well, while the latter can be argued due to Familicide, the former is just not true (Xykon already had it by that point) and they *did* put up a fight in stopping Xykon from getting Soon's Gate. And then failed.

[Snails]

Setting aside narrative convention, I think Serini is probably correct here.

The Order has no notable plan to deal with Xykon, other than attack and hope for the best. If you don't know they're the lead characters in a longrunning comic, why should she have any faith in them? It's not like they have a good record on dealing with the gates, or Xykon, or much else. We know they have good intentions, but successful? Not really.

The defenses surrounding Dorukan and Girard's gates were weakened by the order getting involved, what's different this time?

Serini is correct to have doubts about their competence. But if is wise enough to talk to Roy and Durkon at all, she will find out that Team Order is the best bet she has, dubious as it may be, because the gods are nuking the world if it looks like Xykon is going to win.

I think Serini is being rational enough here in her choices. But she is wrong because her information about the big picture is out of date and woefully incomplete.

[Peelee]

Wizards, by necessity, must study and learn spells. That's pretty much the entire definition of the wizard class. And unless I'm misremembering Sorcs and Wizards have identical spell lists in 3.5e. Which means that even if a spell was first cast by a sorcerer, it has by definition been researched and turned into a spell wizards can cast.

In core Wizards and Sorcs share a list, but official splat books did have wizard-only and sorc-only spells.

[bunsen_h]

Now that I think about it, don't Light Crossbows have a reload time, so you can't just get all 4 attacks or whatever a round?

Can that be worked around by having multiple crossbows cocked and loaded in advance?

[Peelee]

Serini is correct to have doubts about their competence. But if is wise enough to talk to Roy and Durkon at all, she will find out that Team Order is the best bet she has, dubious as it may be, because the gods are nuking the world if it looks like Xykon is going to win.

I think Serini is being rational enough here in her choices. But she is wrong because her information about the big picture is out of date and woefully incomplete.

While I largely agree, everyone's information about the big picture is out of date and woefully incomplete.