[Drop Dead Studios] Spheres of Might Open Playtest

[N. Jolly]

Welcome all to the Spheres of Might open playtest! For the past few weeks, we've been running a backer only playtest and gathering quite a lot of data on this new and exciting system, but now we'd like to open it up to the public to get as many people's thoughts and opinions as possible. There has been a TON of changes from the previous preview, and the new open playtest includes the complete roster of spheres and classes which we will be included in the full release as well as new content such as martial traditions, conversion archetypes so that you can use Spheres of Might with traditional Pathfinder classes, drawbacks to allow you to further customize your experience, and more!

While you can comment on the doc directly, we'd prefer you to make longer comments here or on the Drop Dead Studios forum (http://www.dropdeadstudios.com/forum/#/spheres-of-might/)! We're looking forward to seeing what you have to say, so let us know, and let's get this open playtest rolling!

Champions of the Spheres Archetypes playtest (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1WmpU0yucT3mf04oXktGJecBQ8Gkt3jaB-s82Y29_7BM/edit?usp=sharing)
Champions of the Spheres Prodigy playtest (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v9PDF-VAiBC1DENcm0IDeFFRPv_JmKi0lrS-rp6lk7Q/edit?usp=sharing)

[Mehangel]

The Open Playtest now includes Legendary Talents and 2 Gish Classes (Sage and Troubadour).

Looking through the Legendary Talents, I have to say that I am largely disappointed with their prerequisites (over half of them have a prerequisite of BAB +5 or higher).

One of the things that made me fall in love with Spheres of Power was that they abandoned the idea that ability X was only available at level Y (You could shapechange, fly, teleport, or even stop time at level 1). Advanced Talents in Spheres of Power were set aside as a world building tool and only the most common game-breaking talents. While it is true that Advanced Talents have caster level prerequisites, they had them only because having Advanced Talent X before level Y would most certainly cause problems. Spheres of Power also allowed me to build characters as I want them at level 1 (maybe level 3 with more complex characters).

Legendary Talents from Spheres of Might however seem to have BAB prerequisites for no other reason than to deny martials from having nice things. Talents which were Legendary were supposed to be made such because they were "unrealistic" or "too wushu" for specific games. That is not to say that I argue against any of the legendary talents from having BAB requirements, I am rather saying that it looks like you could easily just reduce the BAB requirements of each by 5 (BAB +10 would become BAB +5, etc) and it would be fine. I would go as far to say that almost all the talents that had the BAB requirement of +5 could due without having any BAB requirement (and those that do could easily be re-written to scale).

I get frustrated whenever I see people forced to stat-out characters from comics, movies, television series as being level 5 or higher when in all likelihood they were probably level 3, and definitely no higher than level 5. I am tired of the Martial/Caster disparity, and it looks like Legendary Talents are not doing martials any favors. Seriously, why would I want to play a Sphere of Might character (using Legendary Talents) when I could accomplish the same thing with Spheres of Power at lower level (and not need Advanced Talents).

Again there are a number of Legendary Talents that I approve of having a BAB requirement (mostly death effects), but things as simple as shoot arrows into a target to create a makeshift ladder never really needed a BAB requirement of +5 to begin with.

[Ssalarn]

I actually think I agree that we swung high on several prereqs; the design team is discussing numerous legendary talents and lowering or removing their BAB/rank prerequisites, so expect to see several of those lowered or dropped entirely as we complete our team review.

[Dracul3S]

Mehangel wrote it better than I could. I agree with all of that. Spheres of power and of might should have the same level of abilities. As of now not the case! And guess who's weaker again? Not the casters.

[Mehangel]

On a different note, any chance that the next major update to the Spheres of Might Open Playtest include Gish Archetypes for the Spheres of Power classes?

[stack]

On a different note, any chance that the next major update to the Spheres of Might Open Playtest include Gish Archetypes for the Spheres of Power classes?

Most of those are still in the concept phase. I don't think any are playtest ready. Getting the base book complete has been a greater focus.

[calyst]

So using only Drop Dead Studio products plus an Akitonian Blade and Boots of the Cat I have found a build that lets you do weapon+20d6+abit each round at 8th level by taking 2 lethal, and 3 non-lethal damage. Is that a fair and balanced trade off?

[stack]

Care to post the build?

[Mehangel]

Most of those are still in the concept phase. I don't think any are playtest ready. Getting the base book complete has been a greater focus.

That's too bad, I know alot of other playtesters who want to write/stat up characters. Any idea what the next big update might include (Archetypes, Prestige Classes, Player/Builder Guide, etc)?

[calyst]

Conscript fast movement, specialization beserk, freerunner package. Sithier for racial jump bonus. Trasformation and Hybrid feats for move speed. Wall stunt, diving strike, air stunt, swift movement x 2. Remember +4 jump for every 10ft speed above 30ft. At 1 dc from air stunt and x3 from Akitonian Blade. Move action jump, swift action jump from air stunt talent gets over 200ft wich is falling damage cap for diving strike as standard action for +20d6 and because of 100ft base speed doesnt break rule of cant jump more than speed.

[stack]

I had never heard of that item before today. Suppose we may have to cap the diving strike damage. Funny, because I was thinking that one was probably underpowered. The ways skill checks can be broken never cease to amaze.

Of course, you need a 200 ft ceiling with a 100ft wall to pull it off. I'll have to check stacking and a few other things when I get to a computer as well.

[AlephOzone]

This is only tangentially related, but i have to ask, have you guys ever thought about adapting spheres of power (and also now, spheres of might) to 5E?

[stack]

This is only tangentially related, but i have to ask, have you guys ever thought about adapting spheres of power (and also now, spheres of might) to 5E?

The idea has come up but no work has been done to my knowledge. Might be aomethig that happens eventually, might not.

[Mehangel]

This is only tangentially related, but i have to ask, have you guys ever thought about adapting spheres of power (and also now, spheres of might) to 5E?

If I were to hazard a guess, adapting Spheres of Power to 5E will not happen until all the Sphere Handbooks are completed, and will probably be included as part of a Kickstarter campaign for an 'Ultimate Spheres of Might & Power' book.

[AlephOzone]

Alright, thanks for the answers. I guess im gonna try my hand at adapting the sphere systems for 5e for my game with my friends.

[digiman619]

Alright, thanks for the answers. I guess im gonna try my hand at adapting the sphere systems for 5e for my game with my friends.
If you do, post your creations in the Homebrew forum. You're not the first to ask for such a conversion.

[Saffron-sama]

Out of curiosity how does the Blacksmith' Artisan Savant interact with the crafting rules in the Spheres of Power book?
Currently you need to take the Artificery and Improved Artificery feats in order to craft with the Blacksmith class in that rule system is that a feature or a error?

I know I am really late for this question but why was the 1st level bonus 2 talents removed?
The loss of those two talents have hurt many of my early level builds quite badly. Plus many of my higher level build gothurt by it a bit to.

[Hunter Noventa]

Out of curiosity how does the Blacksmith' Artisan Savant interact with the crafting rules in the Spheres of Power book?
Currently you need to take the Artificery and Improved Artificery feats in order to craft with the Blacksmith class in that rule system is that a feature or a error?

I know I am really late for this question but why was the 1st level bonus 2 talents removed?
The loss of those two talents have hurt many of my early level builds quite badly. Plus many of my higher level build gothurt by it a bit to.

I think the bonus talents were removed because everyone gets a Martial Tradition now, which gets you your weapon proficiencies and a couple bonus talents.

[Saffron-sama]

I think the bonus talents were removed because everyone gets a Martial Tradition now, which gets you your weapon proficiencies and a couple bonus talents.

Ahh, well traditions are going to need to pick up the slack then and become a lot more flexible. I have been having to bug my gm about traditions a lot including make adjustment to some to better fit my character concept. Since most traditions give you usually one talent that does not jive well or help the character.

Such as the scoundrel base sphere for ninjutsu is not very helpful for the more militant ninja clans.

[Hunter Noventa]

Ahh, well traditions are going to need to pick up the slack then and become a lot more flexible. I have been having to bug my gm about traditions a lot including make adjustment to some to better fit my character concept. Since most traditions give you usually one talent that does not jive well or help the character.

Such as the scoundrel base sphere for ninjutsu is not very helpful for the more militant ninja clans.

Oh I agree, you ought to be able to work with your GM to make a Martial Tradition that is fitting. Just like the SoP casting traditions. I'm pretty sure the rules for both encourage GMs to make or adjust them to better fit their world.

I know that an upcoming game where we'll be using this system doesn't have any eastern influences, so the likes of ninjutsu or bushido won't be options, but I know my GM is creative and flexible enough to work with it.

[Ssalarn]

I think the bonus talents were removed because everyone gets a Martial Tradition now, which gets you your weapon proficiencies and a couple bonus talents.

This was very much the case. The difference between the way talents impact martial characters and the way talents impact magic users are fairly different, and the two bonus talents created multiple issues related to front-loading and balance, both in general and between classes. The Martial Traditions create a path to achieving most of the same effect, but in a cleaner more balanced fashion that also helps inject some flavor into the game world and gives players and GMs both additional customization options for their games.

[N. Jolly]

Just letting everyone know that the SoM playtest is getting a new update soon.


Some of you have already heard this, but we are planning a massive update to the playtest documents, to come online Monday or Tuesday. Among other things including some expanded content, the update will make two major changes to the rules:


First, the removal of dedications. They've actually become less important as the mechanics have evolved, and removing them opens up a bit more customization.
Second, the expansion of the battered condition. Currently the sole property of the berzerker sphere, battered condition inflicted by the berzerker sphere is seeing its usability expanded, and can now be inflicted by other spheres, and has become a much more potent martial tactic.

We're excited to see how these changes (among the other, smaller ones) will affect play. We'll announce them when they go live, but since Paizo Con is this weekend, we'll be waiting until that's over before posting changes. If you'll be at Paizo Con this weekend, we'll be tending a booth and talking to whoever passes by, so come say hi.

Sadly I'm not at Paizocon now, but I will be at Gencon (hopefully), so if any of you are going to that, feel free to bother me.

[Manyasone]

Bah. Unfair. Haven't got my own jet to cross the big wet. I swear, Europe is at a disadvantage in all this

[NomGarret]

I just wonder why every time I fly there's a big update.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I just wonder why every time I fly there's a big update.

Fly more often please. Maybe with enough updates SoM will finally match up to SoP

[NomGarret]

Well I didn't plan on doing so again until September, but for the good of the product I will fly my little heart out.

[Ssalarn]

Just wanted to pop in and note that the update should be officially and completely rolled out at this point, for anyone who hasn't seen/heard.

Links in the OP should be good, but reposting them here just in case:
Sphere 1 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/160bWvYewTwEXj9ZZv-jJ9-VrvGpYNHNcF8w6BMsdqgU/edit?usp=sharing)
Sphere 2 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18GNWQDmpjanVcU70kgclv1YIwTRdSf4l8RnocE38EHQ/edit?usp=sharing)
Sphere 3 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L91c2pA-nfxPb1CTnIJP2gJuajkDLm38QQPjYsejw9M/edit?usp=sharing)
Class 1 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/10yLIsMysbXjhy2LlcaVmbn1IKf5LK7Bg_Dx0S02Xzh0/edit?usp=sharing)
Class 2 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VYwDviOaKDDQGd1CdjYjRDbzJuRR1SZOV0DS6KpiYNs/edit?usp=sharing)
CotS classes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1guWyA71djzV6wzido7yPXbxzPKRbkG0cU-on0zocua4/edit?usp=sharing)
Legendary Talents (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1J-o68lhnPMKr3B5U-Y9cLVt68nN_kQ8YBesnS53kiOY/edit?usp=sharing)
Additional Rules (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oEH4xOaNLWYf4bW1tprKx-BIJVoiSLW2iWpwc-h7o8w/edit?usp=sharing)
Archetypes (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1grzUUNXCPaVrhvrh2-ePOBKnxWDuqdHLTH77dcMZhiE/edit?usp=sharing)

[The Blade Wolf]

So. This is going to be a bit of general impressions of Spheres of Might as a whole, as well as how it compares to Spheres of Power. Note that this is a less of a science and more of an art as it comes down to the differences in experience when constructing characters using the different systems. But hopefully, I can make my point come across well.

The point being that Spheres of Might is significantly less satisfying than Spheres of Power. Because Spheres of Might is too concerned about making sure that each of the individual talents is equal to a feat when Spheres of Power has many, many talents that are worth significantly more than a feat.

For example, a level 9 character that I created had Draw Cut, Swift Slice and Slickened Grip from the Duelling Sphere, as well as Read Foe, Unlikely Feint, Master of Misdirection, Hand Slash from the Fencing Sphere. This gave me max ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive, as well as allowing me the ability to Feint effectively against non-human enemies. More importantly, however, it gave me a very solid routine off ‘Ready an action to attack an enemy with my sheathed weapon. Draw>Free Action Feint>Success = Swift Action Attack>Fatal-Thrust Feinted Enemy>Success = Free Disarm vs the target with -12? to CMD>Success = Attack for AoO’ in order to hit an enemy 3 times and disarm them for a standard action. Which is a pretty damn good routine.

Except, what if they were immune to bleed? Well, then I won’t be able to do both of the extra attacks, only one of them. What if they don’t have a weapon to disarm at all? Well, I don’t have an exploit to use so I guess I just Fatal-Strike them. What if I failed the Feint? Well, then I won’t get either of the extra attacks or the Fatal-Thrust. So all those talents are rendered useless, and I needed to be an expert participator, or an adept with several ‘Extra combat Talent’ feats in order to be able to get that routine at that level. Not to mention it’s only useful against one target, not so great against multiple targets at once.

What if I was using Spheres of Power, however? Well, let’s say I wanted to be a Mageknight focused on the Conjuration Sphere. Lingering Companion & Greater Summoning lets me summon by Companion for the entire day for the simple cost of 2 spell points. Boon Companion has me summoning a Companion at the same level as a full-caster would, and my 3 remaining talents is pretty flexible. Maybe I wanted a ranged supporter to my melee combat? Well, I could go Battle Creature twice and Quick Companion in order to make them pretty much as good at range as a normal fighter would, or maybe it could go the route of Magical Companion instead, and specialize in the Destruction Sphere, if I’m reading it right, it’ll only have 2 less talent than I do at that stage. Maybe I want a battle-buddy or a big beefy dude to draw enemy fire from me or my casters? Altered Size x2 and Armored Companion or Fortified Companion helps make it big and tough, whilst Powerful Companion can help increase its strength and damage...

And that’s just one sphere, for a low caster who is just as good at fighting as Fighter would be, maybe even better thanks to Stalwart and Resist Magic making the much better against deliberating effects, whilst Mystic Combat gives them much greater out of combat options. Spheres of Might spent a lot of talents on a pretty specific combination that works great when it actually works out, but there are so many ways to shut it down without even trying. Mindless Undead or Constructs and boom, all his talents are basically wasted. The Mage Knight? There likely isn’t any situation where an extra guy isn’t useful. The only way to stop it is to kill it or dismiss it, and the later just means he has to resummon it later. Killing it is easier than killing a player, but if the Mage Knight put that much focus on it, he’s not going to let his summon die easily either.

Spheres of Might is designed so each talent and sphere are equal to a feat... but that thinking is quite frankly, holding it back significantly, as their Spheres of Power talents, and especially the individual Spheres are worth SO much more than a single feat.

Spheres of Might gets... the ability to inflict piddling bleed damage, and the ability to disarm someone who is bleeding without provoking an AoO. Spheres of Power gets the ability to summon a companion who is as strong as the fighter at that stage. Spheres of Might gets... the ability to expand their martial focus (which takes a full minute to regain) in order to add +1 to their damage for one attack. Spheres of Power gets the ability to give their party the ability to see in the dark, or their fighter extra natural attacks, or a +10 bonus to disguise! Spheres of Might gets.... The ability to Dual-Wield. Spheres of Power gets the ability to create a fricking wall that the enemy has to get past, as well as the ability to give allies a +1 Deflection Bonus to AC for an entire hour.

In summary: If Dead Drop Studios wants Spheres of Might to able to be equal to Spheres of Power in how easy it is to craft a character to cast/fight in the way that you want them to cast/fight without getting punished? They need to make the base Spheres (most, anyway), a lot more powerful, and to make the individual talents significantly stronger as well. It’ll help make the Drawbacks actually worth a single talent for one thing...

Melee already sucks compared to Magic in Pathfinder... please don’t make it even worse by releasing a Spheres of Might that is completely underwhelming compared to Spheres of Power.

[Manyasone]

I agree with most of what you say, however these are my 2 euros.
The problem is that third edition turned the combat system around by, instead of the casters hiding behind the martials, the martials are hiding behind the casters or better yet, 'Stay at home! Don't get in the way. I'm tired of raising your useless meat... ' anyways. This became so ingrained that when you design stuff for martials that is too powerful, a lot of whiners will raise their voice saying it's not right that the fighters are better at fighting than the wizards. Because reasons... But when whiners keep whining they will be heard and stuff will be adjusted. I like what the team is doing so far with SoM. But i would like it even more if our martials could become on par with guys like Herakles, Leonidas, Achilles, Lancelot, Slaine, Zhao Yun, Ryu Hayabusha.. You get my drift

[Mehangel]

Something I have noticed is that Spheres of Might does little to remove the Caster/Martial disparity. More specifically, in regards to Legendary Talents it looks like individual spheremartial abilities do not receive support unless A) they make it so that magic does it more effectively, or B) lock it behind unnecessary prerequisites to keep it that way. The most keen example of this is Sever Limb.

Sever Limb is locked behind a BAB prerequisite of +11. Why? Because magic cannot restore a lost limb until 10th level in Spheres of Power. Now as brought up by other playtesters, it is also possible that it has this prerequisite to keep GM's from using this ability on players before they can afford to have their wounds restored. This I feel is a cop-out; Just remove the BAB prerequisite, and add a sidebar telling GM's that NPC's of CR 9 or lower should not have Sever Limb. Infact, i would go as far as to say, that NPC's in general should NOT have access to Legendary Talents (there are ofcourse exceptions, but it should be the PC's running the show, not the NPC's).

Ofcourse, all of this is conversed at length on the DDS website forums; But I felt that this rant was relevant to the current conversation.

[The Blade Wolf]

I very much appreciate the fact that after I posted my thoughts, people here have been willing to put forwards their agreements to this issues and are actively discussing them right here. I am also very curious to hear that Drop Dead Studioes has their own forums where other discussions are also being held. Should I perhaps make a post on those forums in order to ensure that the largest amount of people can add their thoughts to the discussion?

[EldritchWeaver]

I very much appreciate the fact that after I posted my thoughts, people here have been willing to put forwards their agreements to this issues and are actively discussing them right here. I am also very curious to hear that Drop Dead Studioes has their own forums where other discussions are also being held. Should I perhaps make a post on those forums in order to ensure that the largest amount of people can add their thoughts to the discussion?

I'm not sure why you feel the need to ask for permission. If you think that the discussion benefits from your input, add your opinion there as well. It is unlikely to harm things. ;)

[The Blade Wolf]

It was less asking for permission, than seeing whenever or not others thought it was a good idea.

[NomGarret]

I would give a little bit of time before doing so, as the devs do frequent this forum as well and have asked that we limit having the same discussions with essentially the same people in multiple forums.

[The Blade Wolf]

That is true, so I will wait a day or two before taking my post over to their forums to see what the people there think of it.

[Saffron-sama]

I very much appreciate the fact that after I posted my thoughts, people here have been willing to put forwards their agreements to this issues and are actively discussing them right here. I am also very curious to hear that Drop Dead Studioes has their own forums where other discussions are also being held. Should I perhaps make a post on those forums in order to ensure that the largest amount of people can add their thoughts to the discussion?

Be warned their is a majorly vocal person on dds forum who seems to be listen to a lot. Since most of his post are pretty much "this is to much nerf it!". Be warned, I have seen him be just slightly hostile to a dev because he did not agree with him. One of the biggest reasons why I don't post on there.

[stack]

While I believe there is more to be said on the question of martial/caster disparity, design philosophy, and the current state of the project, at the moment I will just address the specific question of sever.

Limb loss is something that has generally not made much in the way of a presence in the 3.PF era. There are some oddball 3.5 spells, some optional death alternative suggestions (lose an eye, hand etc. by rolling on a table instead of character death), and probably a few others, but generally it isn't a major part of the system. This is reflected in regeneration being a high level spell that normally serves little to no mechanical function. Its the kind of misc. spell that exists for corner situations because a cleric can grab it the one time its needed. This touches on other design issues and the assumed presence of prepared casters in the way the game is structured, but that is a can of worms I prefer to not open at the moment.

So granting the ability to sever limbs is giving a nice thing to martials that casters mostly don't get. As for prerequisites, the team is in agreement that inflicting conditions that cannot be removed except by magic many levels in excess of what the players are assumed to have ready access to is a poor design choice. We are also not convinced that such abilities should have different requirements for GM and player use. While the monster section has 'monster talents', these are separate largely to reflect the nature of many monsters and the way they function rather than a fundamental balance disparity.

In short, I believe sever is a very poor poster child for the disparity issue discussion.

[Ssalarn]

Sever Limb is locked behind a BAB prerequisite of +11. Why? Because magic cannot restore a lost limb until 10th level in Spheres of Power. Now as brought up by other playtesters, it is also possible that it has this prerequisite to keep GM's from using this ability on players before they can afford to have their wounds restored.

Actually, I brought that up first, other playtesters just reiterated that it was the case. Keeping permanent conditions aligned to be within a level or two of the effects that can end them is a standard and wise practice.



This I feel is a cop-out; Just remove the BAB prerequisite, and add a sidebar telling GM's that NPC's of CR 9 or lower should not have Sever Limb. Infact, i would go as far as to say, that NPC's in general should NOT have access to Legendary Talents (there are ofcourse exceptions, but it should be the PC's running the show, not the NPC's).

This is a personal opinion not made using good design sense. You don't put arbitrary limitations on things because they'd be too strong if the GM used them, and you don't tell GMs how to run their world. If anything, the history of the game is that the bad guys usually have the legendary or epic tools before the good guys.



Of course, all of this is conversed at length on the DDS website forums; But I felt that this rant was relevant to the current conversation.

It was discussed at length on the forums, you're correct, and I was far from the only person to explain it to you.


So. This is going to be a bit of general impressions of Spheres of Might as a whole, as well as how it compares to Spheres of Power. Note that this is a less of a science and more of an art as it comes down to the differences in experience when constructing characters using the different systems. But hopefully, I can make my point come across well.

The point being that Spheres of Might is significantly less satisfying than Spheres of Power. Because Spheres of Might is too concerned about making sure that each of the individual talents is equal to a feat when Spheres of Power has many, many talents that are worth significantly more than a feat.

I'd actually argue that outside of base spheres, each talent in Spheres of Power is worth significantly less than a feat. Most talents are minor building blocks that do nothing other than add a small tweak to the base sphere. Each martial talent is a complete ability that allows you to do something you couldn't before, building off of the abilities you got at base instead of needing to be pieced together. If you want to change the damage type of a deadly shot or brutal strike, you use a different weapon, you don't have to take three different talents.



For example, a level 9 character that I created had Draw Cut, Swift Slice and Slickened Grip from the Duelling Sphere, as well as Read Foe, Unlikely Feint, Master of Misdirection, Hand Slash from the Fencing Sphere. This gave me max ranks in Bluff and Sense Motive, as well as allowing me the ability to Feint effectively against non-human enemies. More importantly, however, it gave me a very solid routine off ‘Ready an action to attack an enemy with my sheathed weapon. Draw>Free Action Feint>Success = Swift Action Attack>Fatal-Thrust Feinted Enemy>Success = Free Disarm vs the target with -12? to CMD>Success = Attack for AoO’ in order to hit an enemy 3 times and disarm them for a standard action. Which is a pretty damn good routine.

Except, what if they were immune to bleed? Well, then I won’t be able to do both of the extra attacks, only one of them. What if they don’t have a weapon to disarm at all? Well, I don’t have an exploit to use so I guess I just Fatal-Strike them. What if I failed the Feint? Well, then I won’t get either of the extra attacks or the Fatal-Thrust.


Given that all of those abilities stack onto your attacks automatically and you get Bluff ranks for free, it's pretty hard to not have competitive feint checks. As to immunity to bleed, you're right, that can undermine Duelists a little. That's not evidence that SoM abilities are less powerful than SoP abilities though (lots of SoP spheres can be pretty useless in adverse circumstances), it's evidence that Duelist could use some tools to be useful against creatures immune to bleed, which is definitely I can be (and have been) working on.



So all those talents are rendered useless, and I needed to be an expert participator, or an adept with several ‘Extra combat Talent’ feats in order to be able to get that routine at that level. Not to mention it’s only useful against one target, not so great against multiple targets at once.

And fireballs aren't particularly useful against single targets either, but they take multiple talents to assemble in SoP. It's not like there aren't multi-target abilities available. Dueling and Fencing are both, well, Dueling and Fencing spheres, at their best against one target at a time.



What if I was using Spheres of Power, however? Well, let’s say I wanted to be a Mageknight focused on the Conjuration Sphere. Lingering Companion & Greater Summoning lets me summon by Companion for the entire day for the simple cost of 2 spell points. Boon Companion has me summoning a Companion at the same level as a full-caster would, and my 3 remaining talents is pretty flexible. Maybe I wanted a ranged supporter to my melee combat? Well, I could go Battle Creature twice and Quick Companion in order to make them pretty much as good at range as a normal fighter would, or maybe it could go the route of Magical Companion instead, and specialize in the Destruction Sphere, if I’m reading it right, it’ll only have 2 less talent than I do at that stage. Maybe I want a battle-buddy or a big beefy dude to draw enemy fire from me or my casters? Altered Size x2 and Armored Companion or Fortified Companion helps make it big and tough, whilst Powerful Companion can help increase its strength and damage...

You're making inequivalent comparisons here. Comparing Dueling to Conjuration is apples to oranges. A better comparison would be Beastmastery to Conjuration, since they're both minion master spheres.



And that’s just one sphere, for a low caster who is just as good at fighting as Fighter would be, maybe even better thanks to Stalwart and Resist Magic making the much better against deliberating effects, whilst Mystic Combat gives them much greater out of combat options. Spheres of Might spent a lot of talents on a pretty specific combination that works great when it actually works out, but there are so many ways to shut it down without even trying. Mindless Undead or Constructs and boom, all his talents are basically wasted. The Mage Knight? There likely isn’t any situation where an extra guy isn’t useful. The only way to stop it is to kill it or dismiss it, and the later just means he has to resummon it later. Killing it is easier than killing a player, but if the Mage Knight put that much focus on it, he’s not going to let his summon die easily either.

With Beastmastery your companions can't be dismissed, and you can easily have a whole stable of creatures that offer you every movement mode under the sun or whatever array of abilities you want to take advantage of. Then you can stack them up with Warleader, Ex buffing that can turn all those animals into a finely coordinated army. Apples to Apples.



Spheres of Might is designed so each talent and sphere are equal to a feat... but that thinking is quite frankly, holding it back significantly, as their Spheres of Power talents, and especially the individual Spheres are worth SO much more than a single feat.

As I stated earlier, I don't think _any_ talent in Spheres of Power is worth a feat, except for the base spheres. Blast types? Martials don't need to buy those, they just need extra arms or ammunition. Form talents? All wasted if your companion can be removed from play (not terribly difficult). Darkness talents? Half of their benefits negated by racial abilities, the other half require you to take Meld talents so the sphere doesn't backfire on your group. Ghost Strikes? Tons of martial talents that cover things like Necrotic Feeding or Sickening, and the characters that use them are more likely to maximize their benefits. So on and so forth.



Spheres of Might gets... the ability to inflict piddling bleed damage, and the ability to disarm someone who is bleeding without provoking an AoO. Spheres of Power gets the ability to summon a companion who is as strong as the fighter at that stage. Spheres of Might gets... the ability to expand their martial focus (which takes a full minute to regain) in order to add +1 to their damage for one attack. Spheres of Power gets the ability to give their party the ability to see in the dark, or their fighter extra natural attacks, or a +10 bonus to disguise! Spheres of Might gets.... The ability to Dual-Wield. Spheres of Power gets the ability to create a fricking wall that the enemy has to get past, as well as the ability to give allies a +1 Deflection Bonus to AC for an entire hour.

Lots of false equivalencies there, which makes it hard to have a real conversation on the matter. Try making real and relevant comparisons. War to Warleader. Dueling to Destruction. Beastmastery to Conjuration and/or Death. Alchemy to Death, Destruction, or Life (it's a busy sphere). False equivalencies make it difficult for the design team to drill down through feedback and see if there's meaningful change that can be made. So far the only clear feedback I've been able to take away from nearly a page of feedback is that Dueling needs a way to deal with creature that are immune to bleed damage.



In summary: If Dead Drop Studios wants Spheres of Might to able to be equal to Spheres of Power in how easy it is to craft a character to cast/fight in the way that you want them to cast/fight without getting punished? They need to make the base Spheres (most, anyway), a lot more powerful, and to make the individual talents significantly stronger as well. It’ll help make the Drawbacks actually worth a single talent for one thing...

I disagree. A Sentinel is going to out-tank an Armorist any day of the week. An Armiger is going to be more versatile than a Destruction caster for most of his career. A Scholar with Salve and Panacea has at least as much raw healing in a party of 4 as a Soul Weaver, and can use that healing regardless of conditions since it's all Ex. A Fighter who wants to dip into a sphere like Shield or Guardian is going to advance his abilities as a tank significantly more completely and quickly than if he tries to dip into SoP for Protection abilities.



Melee already sucks compared to Magic in Pathfinder... please don’t make it even worse by releasing a Spheres of Might that is completely underwhelming compared to Spheres of Power.

Identifying why things are arguably worse is important. Martials don't struggle to deal damage, they've always been the best at that. What they lack is versatility, mobility, buffing, control, defenses, and long range transportation. We give them options for all of that, and those options are in many ways superior to their magical counterparts. Martial flight can't be countered or dispelled. Martial debuffs can generally only be healed by spells and effects tailored to the condition, or raw hit point healing.

Spheres of Might and Spheres of Power use asymmetric balance. It's not just slapping a bunch of talents that are copies of SoP with (Ex) tags on them, it's looking at what you want martials to do and making them good at it, giving them advantages that spellcasting doesn't have and their own way of doing things, which is very prevalent throughout Spheres of Might.

It's also important to note that Spheres of Might has pretty specific goals. Martial enhancement systems like Path of War generate as much hate as love; you get the "too wuxia" crowd, people who just don't like certain concepts like martials "flying" by kicking the air like Sanji in One Piece or leaping from location to location like the Hulk, and so a whole section of the market that likes martials ends up missing out. That's why Spheres of Might divides those "extraordinary magic" abilities out into Legendary talents, so that whether the GM is running a gritty Conan-esque campaign or an over the top One Piece anime adventure, they have the tools to do so and establishing that paradigm is as easy as flicking a switch, just like Advanced Magic talents are used for gating spells that have significant narrative impact. If you want true parity to a dedicated spellcaster, you're going to want those Legendary talents, since some abilities like cutting a hole through reality or kick-flying are specifically on the "may stretch the limits of disbelief for your campaign world" side of the spectrum. With Legendary talents in play, a Sniper who wants to kill someone in a locked, windowless room warded against magic can do so from a mile away. A Berserker who wants to chase a teleporting lich retreating to its tomb on the other side of the world can do so without using magic. A Fencer who wants to lock down an area can hide and make Fatal Thrust enhanced attacks against any enemy within 50 ft. attacking from all different angles and essentially creating a martial control net.
Without Legendary talents, SoM characters still get extensive defensive abilities, numerous debuffs, lots of movement options, and access to additional auto-scaling skills, healing, AoE abilities, etc. They can still excel in their roles, they just don't have as much access to things like divination and teleportation (though several of the classes get non-sphere related options for emulating those effects). They're still solid options with significant potential for more flexibility than their non-SoM core line counterparts, they just don't get certain specific tools that are difficult to present without implying either magic or that reality can be broken if you hit it hard enough.

[Mehangel]

So granting the ability to sever limbs is giving a nice thing to martials that casters mostly don't get. As for prerequisites, the team is in agreement that inflicting conditions that cannot be removed except by magic many levels in excess of what the players are assumed to have ready access to is a poor design choice. We are also not convinced that such abilities should have different requirements for GM and player use. While the monster section has 'monster talents', these are separate largely to reflect the nature of many monsters and the way they function rather than a fundamental balance disparity.

1st, I know that there are dozens of conditions which casters can bestow upon martials, that martials have A) no means of removal, and B) no means of inflicting themselves.

2nd, If players are likely the ones most likely to use Legendary Talents, and if the talent has no balance issues at low levels, then why put a BAB requirement on it? As mentioned by other people on the other forum, 99% of all encounters where a PC may use Sever, it would have a similar effect if the player just outright killed the creature instead.

3rd, Limb loss is a reality in combat. It isn't legendary, and it is a common occurrence. You might aswell say no players can die before 10th level because we cannot raise the dead with spells until level X or Y. Putting a BAB requirement, especially a high one like +10, is sending a message that no-one loses a limb in battle unless they are fighting something with 10+ HD. This is ridiculous, because as we know it is commonly said that if real world people were given character stats, they wouldn't be higher than level 5. I mean, you are giving the same BAB prerequisite to maim someone as it is to outright kill someone (most instant-death Advanced Talents and Legendary Talents have a BAB prerequisite of +10 also).

4th, lets say that a GM does use Sever Limb against a player. How is that different from the GM killing off the player? Paying someone to cast regenerate costs less than a thousand gold, meanwhile the player could see about getting a prosthetic limb.

[Ssalarn]

Since it came up earlier, the DDS forums for Spheres of Might can be found here (http://www.dropdeadstudios.com/forum/#/spheres-of-might/).

[Ssalarn]

1st, I know that there are dozens of conditions which casters can bestow upon martials, that martials have A) no means of removal, and B) no means of inflicting themselves.

2nd, If players are likely the ones most likely to use Legendary Talents, and if the talent has no balance issues at low levels, then why put a BAB requirement on it? As mentioned by other people on the other forum, 99% of all encounters where a PC may use Sever, it would have a similar effect if the player just outright killed the creature instead.

3rd, Limb loss is a reality in combat. It isn't legendary, and it is a common occurrence. You might aswell say no players can die before 10th level because we cannot raise the dead with spells until level X or Y. Putting a BAB requirement, especially a high one like +10, is sending a message that no-one loses a limb in battle unless they are fighting something with 10+ HD. This is ridiculous, because as we know it is commonly said that if real world people were given character stats, they wouldn't be higher than level 5. I mean, you are giving the same BAB prerequisite to maim someone as it is to outright kill someone (most instant-death Advanced Talents and Legendary Talents have a BAB prerequisite of +10 also).

4th, lets say that a GM does use Sever Limb against a player. How is that different from the GM killing off the player? Paying someone to cast regenerate costs less than a thousand gold, meanwhile the player could see about getting a prosthetic limb.

Sever has been discussed at length with you multiple times, and all of these questions have been answered. We simply don't have time in a day to chase you from forum to forum while you pursue your crusade to try and find someone somewhere who will jump on your bandwagon, which is part of why we ask in our playtest documents at the top of each section that you confine your feedback to a single forum. We will not be discussing this issue with you further at this time as it has been fully answered and elucidated upon. You can refer to the original thread (http://www.dropdeadstudios.com/forum/#/20170602/legendary-talents-5429123/), created specifically for you and to answer your questions, for our answers.

[Elderand]

In legendary talents I have one issue. It feels like Vacuum slice is just a straight up better version of Vacuum cut. I fell like that need to be balanced somehow but I'm not sure how.

One way I feel SoM work better than SoP is that I feel....freer to dip in multiple talents, I always got the feeling in SoP that you had to specialize for a pshere to be really useful. With SoM I feel like the talents are more useful even with just a dip of a couple talent in each spheres so to speak.

[Ssalarn]

In legendary talents I have one issue. It feels like Vacuum slice is just a straight up better version of Vacuum cut. I fell like that need to be balanced somehow but I'm not sure how.


I think Vacuum Slice was maybe supposed to have Vacuum Cut as a prerequisite, because, yeah, it really is an upgrade to that basic ability, which is why it has a BAB gate on it where Vacuum Cut does not. I'll look into it and get it resolved.



One way I feel SoM work better than SoP is that I feel....freer to dip in multiple talents, I always got the feeling in SoP that you had to specialize for a pshere to be really useful. With SoM I feel like the talents are more useful even with just a dip of a couple talent in each spheres so to speak.

Very much intentional. While each SoP sphere is about advancing a particular ability or school of magic, the SoM spheres are about creating fighting and play styles for your characters. One of the early things we bandied about during development was that you should be able to put together any Soul Calibur fighter using 2 spheres (so Astaroth would be Brute/Berserker, Cervantes would be Dual-Wielding/Barrage, etc.). Getting to create custom combat styles is something that the system very much encourages, and is part of the fundamental difference between SoP talents and SoM talents. SoP talents build out a specific ability or set of abilities, whereas SoM talents build out your whole character. You can apply multiple spheres to the same attack routine (relatively hard to do in SoP), create whole character platforms that draw from a variety of spheres using complimentary conditions and triggers, etc.

[Mehangel]

Sever has been discussed at length with you multiple times, and all of these questions have been answered. We simply don't have time in a day to chase you from forum to forum while you pursue your crusade to try and find someone somewhere who will jump on your bandwagon, which is part of why we ask in our playtest documents at the top of each section that you confine your feedback to a single forum. We will not be discussing this issue with you further at this time as it has been fully answered and elucidated upon. You can refer to the original thread (http://www.dropdeadstudios.com/forum/#/20170602/legendary-talents-5429123/), created specifically for you and to answer your questions, for our answers.

TLDR; Martials can't have nice things or Martials cannot do things that Magic cannot outright counter or do better.

In all seriousness though, I didn't post on this forum to get a response from you Ssalarn, I posted here so show my support to The Blade Wolf, while also expanding on that Spheres of Might is not yet on the same leveled playing field as Spheres of Power.

EDIT: I also just wanted to say, that I love Spheres of Might. I just am not disillusioned into thinking that it removes the Caster/Martial disparity. Ofcourse, removing the Caster/Martial disparity wasn't really one of the design goals to begin with, so not much to complain about there.

[Elderand]

There is one thing that might be missing, as I'm not seeing it (maybe I just missed it) but there doesn't seem to be a way to gain any AC when not wearing armor like a monk would. I think that might be a good option to have.

[Mehangel]

There is one thing that might be missing, as I'm not seeing it (maybe I just missed it) but there doesn't seem to be a way to gain any AC when not wearing armor like a monk would. I think that might be a good option to have.

You aren't the first to request it (I think I have seen comments from 5-10 people requesting such, unfortunately some were made on forums so some may have been doubled up), the Dev's said they would talk about adding one (I personally hope for one in the Equipment sphere), but no word has been heard back on it.

[Ssalarn]

There is one thing that might be missing, as I'm not seeing it (maybe I just missed it) but there doesn't seem to be a way to gain any AC when not wearing armor like a monk would. I think that might be a good option to have.

Added to the playtest under the Equipment sphere-

Unarmored Training
When unarmored and unencumbered, you gain a +2 armor bonus to your AC. This bonus increases by +1 for every 2 points of base attack bonus you possess. Characters trained in the Acrobatics skill may instead choose to have the armor bonus increase by +1 for every 2 ranks in the Acrobatics skill they possess.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you are immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, when you carry a shield, or when you carry a medium or heavy load.

[Elderand]

Added to the playtest under the Equipment sphere-

Unarmored Training
When unarmored and unencumbered, you gain a +2 armor bonus to your AC. This bonus increases by +1 for every 2 points of base attack bonus you possess. Characters trained in the Acrobatics skill may instead choose to have the armor bonus increase by +1 for every 2 ranks in the Acrobatics skill they possess.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you are immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, when you carry a shield, or when you carry a medium or heavy load.

Sounds good, at first 1 point per 2 bab or acrobatics seemed a bit much, but since it replaces both armor and shield I think it's good number wise.

[Ssalarn]

Sounds good, at first 1 point per 2 bab or acrobatics seemed a bit much, but since it replaces both armor and shield I think it's good number wise.

Yeah, you don't add a mental ability modifier to it, and assuming I did my math right it should give a bit more protection than a level appropriate chain shirt by itself from about 8th level on, but not as good as a chain shirt and buckler. We may end up adjusting the numbers as needed if the scaling really does end up seeming too high, maybe drop the starting bonus from 2 to 1 and/or swap from a 1/2 scaling to 1/3, but this should get the ball rolling for everyone who wants the option.

[Mehangel]

Added to the playtest under the Equipment sphere-

Unarmored Training
When unarmored and unencumbered, you gain a +2 armor bonus to your AC. This bonus increases by +1 for every 2 points of base attack bonus you possess. Characters trained in the Acrobatics skill may instead choose to have the armor bonus increase by +1 for every 2 ranks in the Acrobatics skill they possess.
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. You lose these bonuses when you are immobilized or helpless, when you wear any armor, when you carry a shield, or when you carry a medium or heavy load.

I really like how it is currently implemented. It requires either that the player invests into a skill or be martial (i.e. High BAB class) to utilize it. In short, two thumbs up.

[The Blade Wolf]

I am going to take the time and leave a post addressing what has been said after my post, especially in regards to responses directed at me. However, I cannot help but notice that so far, the only member of the Spheres of Might team seems to have missed a significant point of my post.

Ssalarn, you took a significant amount of time to disregard a lot of my statements as 'inequivalent comparisons' and ' false equivalencies'. However, if I may direction your attention to a portion at the beginning of my post:


Note that this is a less of a science and more of an art

The point of the post wasn't to be exact, percise comparisions. The point of the post wasn't to compare War to Warleader. Dueling to Destruction. Sentinel to Armorist. An Armiger compared to a Destruction Caster. The point was to discuss the feel of power between Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might. If you crunch the numbers, perhaps you are right about the situations in which Spheres of Might is superior to Spheres of Power... but Spheres of Power feels powerful from the very start. Spheres of Might feels... decent, at level 9 or so.

[Elderand]

The point of the post wasn't to be exact, percise comparisions. The point of the post wasn't to compare War to Warleader. Dueling to Destruction. Sentinel to Armorist. An Armiger compared to a Destruction Caster. The point was to discuss the feel of power between Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might. If you crunch the numbers, perhaps you are right about the situations in which Spheres of Might is superior to Spheres of Power... but Spheres of Power feels powerful from the very start. Spheres of Might feels... decent, at level 9 or so.

The problem with that is....it's just a feeling....and it's just your feeling.

Me I never felt like sphere of power was powerful from the start, in fact, for almost all spheres I felt like they were very underwhelming unless you invested heavily in them.

So maybe your post wasn't about making real comparaison and just discuss your feelings, but when it come to a playtest, it's vastly more useful to make actual comparaison.

[The Blade Wolf]

The problem with that is....it's just a feeling....and it's just your feeling.

Me I never felt like sphere of power was powerful from the start, in fact, for almost all spheres I felt like they were very underwhelming unless you invested heavily in them.

So maybe your post wasn't about making real comparison and just discuss your feelings, but when it come to a playtest, it's vastly more useful to make actual comparison.

Question. If that feeling is just my feeling. Why is it that after I posted here about my express displeasure with how Spheres of Power feeling significantly more powerful than Spheres of Might, a significant amount of people chimed in to say that they agreed with that sentiment?

Also, playtesting is exactly that: testing how it is to play. The definition of play is to engage in an activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose. Therefore, when playtesting material such as Spheres of Might, it is significantly important to judge its ability to bring enjoyment to those using it, and in its current form, it is significantly falling short. Especially when compared to it's older brother, Spheres of Power.

[Mehangel]

The problem with that is....it's just a feeling....and it's just your feeling.

He isn't alone in feeling that Spheres of Power is superior to Spheres of Might.

[dude123nice]

The point of the post wasn't to be exact, percise comparisions. The point of the post wasn't to compare War to Warleader. Dueling to Destruction. Sentinel to Armorist. An Armiger compared to a Destruction Caster. The point was to discuss the feel of power between Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might. If you crunch the numbers, perhaps you are right about the situations in which Spheres of Might is superior to Spheres of Power... but Spheres of Power feels powerful from the very start. Spheres of Might feels... decent, at level 9 or so.

Perhaps allowing SoM classes and archetypes to give more talents than their SoP counterparts would help. I've noticed that, in most cases, the numbers of tallents granted are pretty close if comparing corresponding classes and archetypes.

[The Blade Wolf]

Perhaps allowing SoM classes and archetypes to give more talents than their SoP counterparts would help. I've noticed that, in most cases, the numbers of tallents granted are pretty close if comparing corresponding classes and archetypes.

That, or reworking the individual talents to feel and likely be more powerful than they are now at the moment.

[Ssalarn]

Question. If that feeling is just my feeling. Why is it that after I posted here about my express displeasure with how Spheres of Power feeling significantly more powerful than Spheres of Might, a significant amount of people chimed in to say that they agreed with that sentiment?

There's always going to be people who want more. That's how more books get sold. Our job is to make sure that the end product is well-balanced, well-tested, and appeals to the target audience. We've got a lot of people who enjoy Spheres of Might and for many for many of them, boosting power levels outside of the games expected parameters would not be an enjoyable prospect. We've got three people here who feel like it could be more powerful, 3 people over on another forum who think it's just right, and a dozen people on another forum who think it's both too powerful and too weak simultaneously. Looking at that from an outside source, that's generally a pretty good indicator that's close to where it should be, especially when that feedback is based on loose impressions instead of gameplay.




Also, playtesting is exactly that: testing how it is to play. The definition of play is to engage in an activity for enjoyment and recreation rather than a serious or practical purpose. Therefore, when playtesting material such as Spheres of Might, it is significantly important to judge its ability to bring enjoyment to those using it, and in its current form, it is significantly falling short.

In your opinion, which is valid, but far from the only opinion we need to take into consideration. We've got multiple forums where we take in feedback, GMs from about a dozen games sending in weekly playtest reports, and we've run games at conventions. Feedback in general is overwhelmingly positive.


Especially when compared to it's older brother, Spheres of Power.

Spheres of Power is a horse of a different color. As others have noted in this very thread, many people are actually of the opinion that Spheres of Might has a leg up on things like allowing you to effectively do what you want to do more quickly, and is far more favorable to mixing and matching spheres.

I'm sorry if you felt that I was dismissive in my response to you. That was not my intent. I attempted to give you the clearest answers possible. The fact that I noted that those comparisons were false equivalencies was because they are. Vague feedback like that actually isn't all that helpful. I can't do anything about "Conjuration is cooler than Dueling", because it's an opinion, and it's not even one everyone shares. As you may have noticed, I did give concrete answers to the actual actionable things you brought up. "Dueling is too easily shut down by creatures that are immune to bleed" - Awesome, I'm on it and I'll have a talent up by the end of the week. "A lot of people want an Unarmored Combatant talent" - Cool, I literally wrote that up on the spot since we'd been telling we'd work on it and none of our discussions ever went anywhere. I even argued with Adam about it, insisted people wanted it, and got it pushed out right away.

As we note in our playtest feedback guidelines "'This ability sucks' in response to a single talent is not helpful feedback, and commentary that has no helpful feedback will be closed so that it doesn't clutter out relevant feedback or slow down load times for other playtesters. Try alternative phrasings like 'I see that this talent allows me to replace a Charisma-based skill I see as being one of the few good reasons to invest in my Charisma stat. Could you please provide more options that make Charisma worthwhile?' or 'I don’t know that I would take this talent; can you explain to my why it would be worthwhile?'"

Your opinions and feelings matter, insomuch as anyone's feelings and opinions matter, but opinions and feelings aren't actionable. That's compounded when the examples you use to justify those opinions aren't even equivalent. If you're legitimately looking for an improvement of some kind to be made, you need to be able to communicate to me some kind of direction I can look in. You don't think it's "cool" enough? what would you consider cool? I can't promise we'll do that thing, but I can promise that you'll get a complete answer from me about why we are or are not going to do that thing. Clear comparisons also help us figure out what you're maybe trying to say but can't get across. Comparing War to Warleader or Beastmastery to Conjuration means that I at least have a concrete point of comparison where I can say "Okay, he likes this similar thing, but not this other, similar thing. What makes these things different that I can maybe address?" That's why constructive, equivalent, criticism for a playtest is so important. We already know that 540 people like the idea we proposed, and that's more than most 3pp books get, so we aren't changing that. All I know based on your feedback is that you don't think it's cool enough. Do you have a natural predisposition to hate martials? Do you have unrealistic expectations for what this book is doing? Do we already have answers to your needs and you just don't know about them? I don't know these things, and I can't intuit them based on what you've given me so far.


Perhaps allowing SoM classes and archetypes to give more talents than their SoP counterparts would help. I've noticed that, in most cases, the numbers of tallents granted are pretty close if comparing corresponding classes and archetypes.

Honestly we haven't seen much evidence that any of the SoM options are performing behind expectations. We've actually done more nerfing than buffing in that regard, removing, downgrading, or breaking up options that were too over the top or too powerful. There's also a reason that the martial characters have slightly lower talent progressions in a few instances; if I want to use any of the Warp talents, I have to have the base sphere. They don't do anything on their own. But right out the gate, every Might sphere is building on an existing option. I'm not enabling someone to damage someone with a lance, I'm adding on to what they can do with it. Each sphere builds off an existing capability, and expands that ability outward. If I want to do two things in Spheres of Power, I need two base spheres. If I want to get better at each of those two things, I need to spend two more talents, so on and so forth. Everything in Spheres of Might, however, falls back to a few basic things: attack actions, swift/immediate actions, move actions, and having or expending martial focus. I can build multiple spheres onto each of those actions; If I want to be a speedster who's all over the battlefield, I can accomplish that a few different ways through spheres like Athletics, Dual Wielding, Scout, etc. Most of those can even be used together, allowing me to create a multi-sphere build that naturally fuses spheres together. If I want to be Mad Martigan or the Dread Pirate Roberts, I can take Athletics, Dual Wielding, Dueling, Fencing, each one in whole or in part, and get to that build with each talent I take adding towards that goal. I don't need all four spheres, but if I take them all they aren't competing against each other like SoP spheres would be, they're building on each other and complimenting each other.

[Lirya]

As I stated earlier, I don't think _any_ talent in Spheres of Power is worth a feat

I cannot imagine building an Incanter in SoM without taking Extra Magic Talent at least 10 times, so I would disagree with this statement. Then again, I would also load up on Extra Combat Talent when making a Conscript.

For the most part, SoM is in my opinion in a fairly good place balance wise. I do think it could use more legendary talents that provide legendary skill use or utility options that are not easily replicated by magic. I posted a list of ideas in the suggest a Legendary Talent tread over at the dds forum a while ago, but apart from the I Will Hear & I Will Come guardian talents most of it seems to have been forgotten?

[Ssalarn]

I cannot imagine building an Incanter in SoM without taking Extra Magic Talent at least 10 times, so I would disagree with this statement. Then again, I would also load up on Extra Combat Talent when making a Conscript.

For the most part, SoM is in my opinion in a fairly good place balance wise. I do think it could use more legendary talents that provide legendary skill use or utility options that are not easily replicated by magic. I posted a list of ideas in the suggest a Legendary Talent tread over at the dds forum a while ago, but apart from the I Will Hear & I Will Come guardian talents most of it seems to have been forgotten?

I haven't been on Legendaries much lately, beyond tidying up the ones that are there, but I'll try and hit that thread up tomorrow and see what kind of space we have in Legendary Talents.

[Manyasone]

If I may interject a maybe unpopular opinion. I think it is wrong to add talents to by pass certain immunities. Why? It will rapidly become ridiculous and it also 'punishes' creatures/NPC who may have invested in said immunity. The bleed mechanic being the popular one and i am fan of it, does not translate well. Of course you could create 'bleed spirit' to affect undead or constructs. But it would feel wrong. If i, as a player, would face an enemy that is immune to large part of my build? I'd feel annoyed, yes, but unless all enemies suddenly develop immunities, i'd live with it. After all, there is the rest of the party. You can't do everything to everyone. And for some things you need hammers instead of needles.
Which also reminds me. Ssalarn, will some Spheres become more efficient with certain types of physical damage?

[The Blade Wolf]

I did say I was going to leave a more detailed and thorough response that properly compares Spheres of Power and Spheres of Might. Which Spheres I think we're done well, and which Spheres come across as very lackluster. I was simply pointing out that my post was less direct comparison and more subjective feeling, and that such a post is as valid as more mechanical feedback, if less able to be directly responded to.

[NomGarret]

If I may interject a maybe unpopular opinion. I think it is wrong to add talents to by pass certain immunities. Why? It will rapidly become ridiculous and it also 'punishes' creatures/NPC who may have invested in said immunity. The bleed mechanic being the popular one and i am fan of it, does not translate well. Of course you could create 'bleed spirit' to affect undead or constructs. But it would feel wrong. If i, as a player, would face an enemy that is immune to large part of my build? I'd feel annoyed, yes, but unless all enemies suddenly develop immunities, i'd live with it. After all, there is the rest of the party. You can't do everything to everyone. And for some things you need hammers instead of needles.
Which also reminds me. Ssalarn, will some Spheres become more efficient with certain types of physical damage?

How would you feel if the abilities effectively downgraded immunity to significant resistance? Would that be enough to keep the feeling that you can contribute while also keeping the feeling that this is an opponent you are weak against?

[khadgar567]

How would you feel if the abilities effectively downgraded immunity to significant resistance? Would that be enough to keep the feeling that you can contribute while also keeping the feeling that this is an opponent you are weak against?
I dont know garret but it feels good but i thing every one prefer more solid omph to your idea

[Dracul3S]

I have an issue with the legendary talents: Some of them allow you to do crazy stuff and others are more or less needed to keep up with the expectations of the game. Having both of these in one group is bad. I get the need or wish for both, I just do not want them grouped together, as that feels odd and more importantly can cause conflicts at a table.
I'm also still getting the feeling that SoM compares badly to SoP. And mainly for this reason:
I feel the whole martial-focus-system as of now is terrible. Expend, regain, exploit, get bored to death... Martial focus is not a good spellpoint replacement system (coming from SoP that is what it looks like). Just go with renamed spellpoints if you need a system like that. Do not try to reinvent the wheel. That rarely goes well. Why not let martials have a daily resource to expend? Martial focus as written is more of a problem instead of a solution.

[Ssalarn]

I have an issue with the legendary talents: Some of them allow you to do crazy stuff and others are more or less needed to keep up with the expectations of the game. Having both of these in one group is bad. I get the need or wish for both, I just do not want them grouped together, as that feels odd and more importantly can cause conflicts at a table.
I'm also still getting the feeling that SoM compares badly to SoP. And mainly for this reason:
I feel the whole martial-focus-system as of now is terrible. Expend, regain, exploit, get bored to death... Martial focus is not a good spellpoint replacement system (coming from SoP that is what it looks like). Just go with renamed spellpoints if you need a system like that. Do not try to reinvent the wheel. That rarely goes well. Why not let martials have a daily resource to expend? Martial focus as written is more of a problem instead of a solution.


We really have no desire to do a point-based martial system. It doesn't align with what a lot of our backers want, and it tends to lead to one of two results; either you end up with something that looks too much like "sword magic" for many groups, or you end up with something like Unchained Stamina, which is really just "X nova strikes per encounter". The whole point of Spheres of Might is to "reinvent the wheel" as you said, taking all of the feedback about combat and martial techniques that has accrued and drilling down through that to find what works, what doesn't work, and what's going to appeal to the widest audience. Martial focus does what we want it to do very well; it creates a renewable resource that allows us to gate particularly strong abilities in such a way that they can't be easily stacked, creates natural synergies and limitations between spheres, and promotes diverse, tactical combat.
It also doesn't involve tracking points, often a turn-off for people that prefer martials over casters.

Legendary talents also align with Advanced talents from SoP in that, while not every talent is equally "legendary" or "advanced", they do represent fundamental changes in assumptions of the game world. Spheres of Power was actually written as a GM tool, first and foremost. It allows GMs to make fundamental assumptions about the nature of magic and casting in their game worlds. Spheres of Might similarly advances martial combat while allowing the GM to draw a clear line on exactly what you can and can't do without magic.

[N. Jolly]

I have an issue with the legendary talents: Some of them allow you to do crazy stuff and others are more or less needed to keep up with the expectations of the game. Having both of these in one group is bad. I get the need or wish for both, I just do not want them grouped together, as that feels odd and more importantly can cause conflicts at a table.
I'm also still getting the feeling that SoM compares badly to SoP. And mainly for this reason:
I feel the whole martial-focus-system as of now is terrible. Expend, regain, exploit, get bored to death... Martial focus is not a good spellpoint replacement system (coming from SoP that is what it looks like). Just go with renamed spellpoints if you need a system like that. Do not try to reinvent the wheel. That rarely goes well. Why not let martials have a daily resource to expend? Martial focus as written is more of a problem instead of a solution.

I'm not particularly sure how a limited resource is any less boring than focus myself, as martial focus is something that will hopefully get people to consider their actions more carefully. Giving different ways of doing it for different spheres is meant to help you zone into your playstyle more, which isn't something that a point based system would allow you to do.

[Adam Meyers]

I'm a theory-based guy, so for what it's worth, here are the design points behind our decisions:

A stereotypical SoP user is low-BAB, d6 hp, with 20 talents. A stereotypical SoM user is high-BAB, d10 hp, with 20 talents.

This means that SoP and SoM CANNOT be equal: There are too many parts and aspects of the game that extrapolate from those differences that trying to directly compare both systems is an exercise in futility. Instead, the answer to making them 'equal' is to make each system unique; to celebrate those differences rather than to label them as undesirable and problematic.

There are three questions that we as designers ask ourselves while working on SoM:

1. Is It Fun?
2. Does It Let Martials Shine?
3. Are Both Systems Unique and Balanced Enough that Opinions Differ on Which is Best?

1. Is It Fun?

Yes. Absolutely. From our own test games and the information we have coming in from other test games, the ability to swap tactics, expand the use of combat maneuvers, and everything else we're doing is making combat a lot more fun than the old system.

2. Does it Let Martials Shine?

Yes. The problem with 'spells do it better' is that in most core cases, it literally is better; the magic method of accomplishing any given task is exactly the same as the martial method, but more powerful. Martials run and climb and swim, magic flies and spider climbs and water breathes. With SoM, though, martials are gaining not just diverse options, but unique options; magic flies, martials leap onto the monster's back and stab it repeatedly while riding it like a cowboy. Martials can't and shouldn't answer problems the same way magic does, but instead their method of answering the problem can and should be unique to their own way of doing things.

3. Are Both Systems Unique and Balanced Enough that Opinions Differ on Which is Best?

Having read the conversation in this very thread, I can say with resounding surety that the answer to this question is yes. Arguing that SoP 'feels' more powerful or should use the same point system as SoP shows a clear preference for the SoP system, while other people we know are resoundingly against both of those claims, showing a preference for SoM. This shows that each system is offering a different enough experience that they are appealing to different styles of play. We of course must monitor all of that feedback carefully to make sure that one side of the argument is not clearly winning, but the ideal situation is not to make a SoM the same as SoP, but rather to have the divide between those who prefer each system to be about equal, with both sides having their own set of feelings and arguments to justify why they prefer theirs over the other.

So anyway, while we are and will continue to monitor all feedback closely to detect any changes in trends and very much want to hear any feedback you have from your own test games that might counter our findings, as of right now we don't plan to make any more grand or sweeping changes to the system. Things can always be more fun, more shiny and more unique, but the feedback spectrum indicates that the product is more or less on point, and as designers that makes us very happy to hear.

[The Blade Wolf]

... I have to object to the fact that your using my misgivings towards the current form of Spheres of Might in order to state that you are doing a good job as a developer in making sure Spheres of Might is different from Spheres of Power. I did not compare the two products because I enjoy Spheres of Power more. I compared the two products because I enjoy Spheres of Might more but I feel like there is a significant drawback in power compared to Spheres of Power and the 'each talent must be as powerful as a feat' is a signifcant drawback to the creativity and power of the talents as feats can range tremendously in power.

I mean, isn't there a feat in Pathfinder that basically gives you free Metamagic if you are good at simple maths?

[Milo v3]

'each talent must be as powerful as a feat' is a signifcant drawback to the creativity and power of the talents as feats can range tremendously in power.
Considering there are many talents which give free feats in addition to other effects, I think you should keep in mind that it's not "each talent must be as powerful as a feat" it's "each talent must be as powerful as a good feat".

[The Blade Wolf]

Considering there are many talents which give free feats in addition to other effects, I think you should keep in mind that it's not "each talent must be as powerful as a feat" it's "each talent must be as powerful as a good feat".

That doesn't change the fact that a 'good' feat is a subjective matter entirely and what one person may view as a good view, someone as might view as a weak or overpowered feat.

[N. Jolly]

That doesn't change the fact that a 'good' feat is a subjective matter entirely and what one person may view as a good view, someone as might view as a weak or overpowered feat.

As both a guide writer and a designer, I'd like to think I have a pretty good feel for what is and isn't a good feat, and most talents we wrote would score pretty decently on that metric.

[Mehangel]

As both a guide writer and a designer, I'd like to think I have a pretty good feel for what is and isn't a good feat, and most talents we wrote would score pretty decently on that metric.

Well aren't you a humble soul?

[khadgar567]

Well aren't you a humble soul?
give it a rest will ya jolly knows what he is talking better than you or me can snark for it

[The Blade Wolf]

As both a guide writer and a designer, I'd like to think I have a pretty good feel for what is and isn't a good feat, and most talents we wrote would score pretty decently on that metric.

Whilst on the subject of guides, do you have plans for any other classes or updates to your guides? Quite a significant amount of classes as far as I can tell either have out-of-date guides, or a few limited selection of guides, including the Cavalier, Hunter, Inquisitor and pretty much every alternative, hybrid and occult class. Even some of the earlier classes like the Magus, Paladin and Ranger are very out of date.

Never been confident about stepping forwards and trying my own hand... I've never really been able to grasp the full underlying principles enough to write a guide.

[Mehangel]

give it a rest will ya jolly knows what he is talking better than you or me can snark for it

Oh I know very well that N. Jolly is a very talented designer. Mostly just pointing out that there are several of paizo writers who DO NOT have a good feel for what is and isn't a good feat.

[N. Jolly]

Well aren't you a humble soul?

Humility is for ugly people. #hashtagHERO


Whilst on the subject of guides, do you have plans for any other classes or updates to your guides? Quite a significant amount of classes as far as I can tell either have out-of-date guides, or a few limited selection of guides, including the Cavalier, Hunter, Inquisitor and pretty much every alternative, hybrid and occult class. Even some of the earlier classes like the Magus, Paladin and Ranger are very out of date.

Never been confident about stepping forwards and trying my own hand... I've never really been able to grasp the full underlying principles enough to write a guide.

Right now I don't have any real chance to update my previous guides as I'm busy with design work now (just got added to another KS so that's pretty cool). While I'd like to take some time out to work on some other guides like a vigilante one at some point, I simply don't have the time to do them, or else I'd get on them. I'd like to do a Striker guide once the book comes out proper though, and depending on how my body is doing, I might have a Street Fighter themed one up soon enough.

[The Blade Wolf]

Right now I don't have any real chance to update my previous guides as I'm busy with design work now (just got added to another KS so that's pretty cool). While I'd like to take some time out to work on some other guides like a vigilante one at some point, I simply don't have the time to do them, or else I'd get on them. I'd like to do a Striker guide once the book comes out proper though, and depending on how my body is doing, I might have a Street Fighter themed one up soon enough.

Fair enough that is completely understandable. Guides are more hobbies whilst being an active developer tends to bring the dollars in as well as being more of a hobby. Still I have to admit I very much like the idea of having a proper Vigilante Guide (with perhaps 3rd Party Review), as the other ones tend to throw up their hands and say 'It's so flexible use whatever feats and items you want' instead of trying to give us proper builds and suggestions...

[Elderand]

So I was reading the fencing sphere and I noticed it said that those with the sphere can use their bab instead of their rank in bluff to feint.
Isn't that....very weak? Obviously someone who is dedicated toward feinting would use bluff, probably with the class skill bonus and an ability bonus.

Wouldn't it be better to allow people with the sphere to use their bab + their practitioner modifier?

And how about giving people who take the master of misdirection a bonus as well? Perhaps make it so those for whom bluff isn't a class skill now treat it as a class skill and those for whom bluff was already a class skill can had their practiotionner bonus to their check?

[Ssalarn]

So I was reading the fencing sphere and I noticed it said that those with the sphere can use their bab instead of their rank in bluff to feint.
Isn't that....very weak? Obviously someone who is dedicated toward feinting would use bluff, probably with the class skill bonus and an ability bonus.

Wouldn't it be better to allow people with the sphere to use their bab + their practitioner modifier?

And how about giving people who take the master of misdirection a bonus as well? Perhaps make it so those for whom bluff isn't a class skill now treat it as a class skill and those for whom bluff was already a class skill can had their practiotionner bonus to their check?

You use it in place of your ranks, not in place of your total bonus. All of your other modifiers still apply. Basically the ability autoscales your ranks in Bluff for you for feinting. Your Charisma bonus, any benefits from feats and talents, etc. still apply to your roll.

That being said, on review it is structured differently than the other spheres that give skill ranks, and I'm not sure if that was intentional. Checking with the author and rest of the team now.

[Elderand]

You use it in place of your ranks, not in place of your total bonus. All of your other modifiers still apply. Basically the ability autoscales your ranks in Bluff for you for feinting. Your Charisma bonus, any benefits from feats and talents, etc. still apply to your roll.

That being said, on review it is structured differently than the other spheres that give skill ranks, and I'm not sure if that was intentional. Checking with the author and rest of the team now.

Then I would suggest maybe making the text more clear?

[The Blade Wolf]

Personally, I don't see why they should not just give you ranks in bluff as part of the class feature, you already have other spheres doing the same after all.

[Ssalarn]

Then I would suggest maybe making the text more clear?

The text was pretty clear on how it worked previously (ranks are a specifically defined thing), but after discussion with the group and original author, I've updated Fencing to use the same structure as the other spheres that advance skills, for consistency's sake if nothing else. That will make the base sphere a bit more robust since the ranks will apply to all uses of Bluff, not just feint attempts.

[Mithril Leaf]

Is there still the option to trade some of your feats for a certain amount of SoM progression? I wasn't able to find it in the document but recall it being an option a while ago.

[EldritchWeaver]

Is there still the option to trade some of your feats for a certain amount of SoM progression? I wasn't able to find it in the document but recall it being an option a while ago.

That option was recalled for further tuning and hasn't reappeared yet.

[Manyasone]

I asked before but it probably was lost in the wall of text.
Will some Spheres become more efficient with certain types of physical damage?
It seems not it far fetched concerning mechanics

[stack]

I asked before but it probably was lost in the wall of text.
Will some Spheres become more efficient with certain types of physical damage?
It seems not it far fetched concerning mechanics
We have tried to keep things relatively weapon agnostic where possible, so I wouldn't expect increased differentiation based on damage type.

[Hunter Noventa]

We have tried to keep things relatively weapon agnostic where possible, so I wouldn't expect increased differentiation based on damage type.

Which I think is a good thing. Even if the mental image of Impaling someone on a mace when using the Lancer sphere is pretty hilarious, I wouldn't want it limited like that.

[Manyasone]

Which I think is a good thing. Even if the mental image of Impaling someone on a mace when using the Lancer sphere is pretty hilarious, I wouldn't want it limited like that.

I never said to outright ban effects based on type. But exactly this image is what tickles my funny bone. And not in a good way. Impaling with hammers... Nein
Edit: but maybe something like impaling with a piercing weapon gives a +1 on the check

[Dracul3S]

I'm not particularly sure how a limited resource is any less boring than focus myself, as martial focus is something that will hopefully get people to consider their actions more carefully. Giving different ways of doing it for different spheres is meant to help you zone into your playstyle more, which isn't something that a point based system would allow you to do.

The regaining of focus is the issue. It's not feeling fun or good at all. No one at all three of my tables enjoys the whole martial focus system. You need to use focus for too many things, meanig you will always want to regain it... So it's use ability, use regaining ability use ability, the second step feels bad. As you repeat it literally every turn. Sure you do not have to... You can also not use your interesting and cool abilities...
AND it totally devaluates the whole attack action stuff: instead of using a full round action, I'm now using a standard and a move action, wait something went wrong here right? Very wrong. There is no actual difference here. Ugh... Why bother with the change at all, if in an actual game you just changed...nothing. Just make everything that expends focus a fullround action already and be done, okay?

Focus is really not up to what it promises to be. As I wrote I think it's a problem, not a solution. YMMV.

[khadgar567]

The regaining of focus is the issue. It's not feeling fun or good at all. No one at all three of my tables enjoys the whole martial focus system. You need to use focus for too many things, meanig you will always want to regain it... So it's use ability, use regaining ability use ability, the second step feels bad. As you repeat it literally every turn. Sure you do not have to... You can also not use your interesting and cool abilities...
AND it totally devaluates the whole attack action stuff: instead of using a full round action, I'm now using a standard and a move action, wait something went wrong here right? Very wrong. There is no actual difference here. Ugh... Why bother with the change at all, if in an actual game you just changed...nothing. Just make everything that expends focus a fullround action already and be done, okay?

Focus is really not up to what it promises to be. As I wrote I think it's a problem, not a solution. YMMV.
looks like i found edna "the purse dog" earth seraphs giant account

[N. Jolly]

The regaining of focus is the issue. It's not feeling fun or good at all. No one at all three of my tables enjoys the whole martial focus system. You need to use focus for too many things, meanig you will always want to regain it... So it's use ability, use regaining ability use ability, the second step feels bad. As you repeat it literally every turn. Sure you do not have to... You can also not use your interesting and cool abilities...
AND it totally devaluates the whole attack action stuff: instead of using a full round action, I'm now using a standard and a move action, wait something went wrong here right? Very wrong. There is no actual difference here. Ugh... Why bother with the change at all, if in an actual game you just changed...nothing. Just make everything that expends focus a fullround action already and be done, okay?

Focus is really not up to what it promises to be. As I wrote I think it's a problem, not a solution. YMMV.

I'd actually disagree that you need to expend it on a lot; I've been doing the sample characters for the book, and I don't think I've actually taken a focus expending talent on any of them, although I haven't gotten to the sniper which may be a bit of an issue there. I'd say there's a lot of interesting and fun abilities that aren't expending focus, and most of my group seems to keep focus to keep certain abilities active as well as save it for its secondary function, the saving throw ability. Most spheres have 2-3 focus expending abilities out of around 20, so I don't really see where expending focus is a large issue except for possibly sniper, especially with guardian and warleader having dropped the need to expend it as much.

I can agree that not everyone is in love with focus, but I think it can be useful for this system both for talents expending it and them requiring it, adding a bit more thought into what's being done round to round. I've had people tell me they liked it as well as disliked it, so it's something that's hard to make an immediate decision on, as there's a lot of feedback that the general public isn't seeing from PMs and emails I receive about things. I am taking into account what you're saying, but I will again state that I have a lot of people to which we have to respond in these situations, so large changes like this aren't to be taken lightly. I'll bring it up with the others though, and see what opinions are on the topic. Thank you for your feedback; we do appreciate it, even if it's not something we're able to implement.

EDIT: This has given me an idea to assist on this issue, since the idea of switching some things to full round actions is rather interesting.

[stack]

looks like i found edna "the purse dog" earth seraphs giant account

Please refrain from his sort of comment. It is a personal criticism and not helpful.

[Swaoeaeieu]

i hear good things about this and SoP, and i am a big fan of offering my players options.
But i tried to check out the test documents in the OP and honestly, i do not know where to start or how this works.

Is there an ''Explain it like im simple'' page i can start? How the system works, what the classes are, that kinda stuff? because even the ''small'' rules doc is 25+ pages and i feel a little lost in it all.

is there a starters guide to SoM? :D

[khadgar567]

Please refrain from his sort of comment. It is a personal criticism and not helpful.
no problem on my part just here to do my job as tester

[Milo v3]

i hear good things about this and SoP, and i am a big fan of offering my players options.
But i tried to check out the test documents in the OP and honestly, i do not know where to start or how this works.

Is there an ''Explain it like im simple'' page i can start? How the system works, what the classes are, that kinda stuff? because even the ''small'' rules doc is 25+ pages and i feel a little lost in it all.

is there a starters guide to SoM? :D

Simplest way to describe it would be.

Take one of the SoM classes (they're all in the class docs)/an archetype (conversion doc)/or a feat (probably the rules doc, been a while so not 100% on this one), and you get talents. Talents are separated into groups called spheres. SoM users have a thing called focus which they can expend to boost some talents.

[The Blade Wolf]

Okay, so. Direct discussions about the individual Sphere’s of Might, sometimes contrasting them to what Sphere’s of Power has to offer as well. Probably not going to review every single sphere to start with, as there is a LOT of Spheres and covering all of them will take forever. So I’m going to focus on the Spheres that have grabbed my attention the most.

Let us begin.

I don’t like how Martial Focus is implemented at the moment. The fact it takes an entire minute to redo from the start, and that you have to pick up specific talents in there Sphere’s in order to have a solid way of regaining it without spending 10 rounds doing so, is also annoying. I really believe that Martial Focus should only take a Full-Round Action to regain, and that the individuals Sphere’s should each have at least 1 way of regaining their Martial Focus quicker than a Full-Round Action built in. It doesn’t have to be incredibly fast mind you, like a move action or part of another Full-Round Action... but I do believe they should be built in options to get the Martial Focus back swiftly instead of having to pick up specific talents.

Additionally, I don’t like how many Spheres have ( ) talents that you can only apply one of unless you use your Martial Focus - and even than some sphere’s don’t have that option. If I can make four powerful strikes at someone within a short span of time, why can’t I flick someone’s weapon so it hits themselves, than grab it and hit them with it? Why can’t I take advantage of their vulnerability during a precise strike in order to hobble their movement AND disarm them of their weapon? I understand making sure you can’t use more than one at first, but why at later levels? Say, BAB +7 I can use two ( ) talents at once, and at BAb +14 I can use 3 ( ) talents at once? Or maybe BAB +8 and BAB +16 respectively. Or hell, even just an extra one at BAB+11. Just, not purely one and one alone unless you use your Martial Focus please? It gives a great sense of progression that I feel several of the Spheres significantly lack, and rewards people who focus on one-two sphere’s as well.

Also, what does the Battered Condition actually DO?

Final Rating: 3/10

The Athletics Sphere is without a doubt one of the best put together Spheres in the book, and it is most definitely worth dipping in for just about every single participator. The base Sphere alone is very strong, +1 Skill Point for a variety of skills, only one of which people normally pick up on. The fact that you can grab all of the packages with just the sphere and two talents is great, as it really allows you to flesh out your character's skill and mobility, yet allowing them to have skills in other areas, such as Diplomacy, Knowledge or Use Magic Device. On top of that, several of the talents are incredibly fun. Dizzying Tumble, Reflexive Twist and Unwilling Boost in particular stand out as fun and dynamic talents that would be very fun to play. Whilst talents such as Swift Movement and Mighty Condition a solid and reliable talents that work in almost all circumstances.

However, the Athletics Sphere is not without it’s faults. The fact that there isn’t any actual way to fully acquire Climb or Swim Speed is incredibly disappointing, as it would really allow someone to specialize in those specific skills (flight I can understand and it has a legendary talent). The lack of creative ways of regaining your Martial Focus is disappointing as well, as the Withdraw action is seldom used... doubly so as the Barrage Sphere for some reason has a talent that lets you regain it for free during a move action as long as you move more than 5ft but less than your full speed.

I also do not feel that Mobile Striker should be as a motion talent, as it means I can’t use it and Sudden Flanking to flank my opponent or dizzying tumble to move past several people at once and strike one in particular. Not without using my Martial Focus for Multiple Motion... and on that note, the fact there is only 5 motion talents makes me rather disclinced to pick it up. Where’s the talent that lets me ignore difficult terrain as I move? Or what about a talent that lets me run across an surface that can’t support my weight as long as I’m moving, which can than be upgraded to let me run on water? Sure that’s somewhat wuxia, but ninja and monks can already do it, so people shouldn’t have reason to complain at all.

Finally, you really need to work on the wording of several talents. Diving Strike, Scale Foe and especially Rope Swing have far too many words to explain their function, and it makes people a lot less inclined to pick them up. Scale Foe is understandable and passable. But Diving Strike is far too many words, and a very weak effect for the set-up required to get it off (charge down at someone from 100ft high and get a bonus 10d6 damage! So worth the effort of getting that far above them!), and whilst I like the fact you take back-lash damage and do minimal damage if you don’t take the backlash damage, the amount of cushioning you do get is not really all that great either. As for Rope Swing? Nope, not even going to bother with that.

In summary: The Athletics Sphere is a great Sphere that likely has the best base out of all of them, but a lack of solid motion talents, as well as several sub-par talents with far too many words drag it down.

Final Rating: 8/10.

The Barrage Sphere is a very simple concept that works very well indeed: Making as many attacks as possible with a ranged weapon. Baking in Rapid Shot and then a greater version of Rapid Shot at the cost of your Martial Focus into the base Sphere makes it a very solid start for sure, and I love how you can actually apply one Blitz Talent per extra attack as well, though I do wish that when you unlocked the fourth extra attack, you could make the second extra attack without burning your martial focus.

Talents such as Close Combat Specialist and Vigilant Sharpshooter really help the idea of someone who mixes ranged with melee, or doesn’t care to get in close and personal with their ranged weapons, whilst talents like Arrow Split and Walking Fire are solid as they replicate powerful ranged feats such as Clustered Arrows and Hammer the Gap (without being associated the them... for, some reason...?), than you can chose to either punish the enemy with blitz talents like Hammering Shots or Supressing Fire, or spread your attention with Spinning Shot to really lay down the hurt.

Still, it’s not without its flaws: whilst there is seven blitz talents, it still feels like you don’t have much variety due to how several of them don’t function with one another, forcing you to decide between one or the other, and there isn’t many that apply direct debuffs beyond the two previous mentioned. Plus, whilst there is a talent like Blowback Barrage, 10ft of forced movement flat isn’t as impressive as say, 5ft of movement per hit, and the fact that Blowback Barrage is the only talent that directly buffs the Barrage without being a blitz makes it stand out significantly.

All in all... I feel like several of the blitz talents need to be reworked and improved on, and a few more talents added in order to help you decide between damage vs 1, damage vs many, and debuffing people. Also, I wish that it was easier to use Barrage with Dual Wielding, at the moment using them together only gives you one extra attack from Dual Wielding as far as I can tell... which is a bit of a shame in all honestly.

Final Rating: 9/10.

The Berserker Sphere has the best scaling base ability in SoM for sure. Starting with -2 AC for +3 THP and ending with -2 AC for +23 THP at level 20. However it seems to me that the Berserker Sphere doesn’t entirely understand what it’s own focus wants to be, and it makes it have several abilities that doesn’t really fit all that well together.

For example, Brutal Strike itself is a combination of pure damage and sunder. Most of the exertion’s however are stacking penalties that require you to use Brutal Strike again and again, and basically requires Beat Down at higher levels. Advancing Carnage and Reaper’s Momentum are AoE abilities, but the Sphere base ability, Deathless and Sanguine Invigoration are about tanking/surviving for longer periods of time, whilst Brutal Strike, Mage Masher, Shieldbreaker and Shrapnel are Sunder focused, but without giving you immunity from AoO’s whilst doing so.

It’s just... ‘Berserker’ says to me that the Sphere should be able damage beyond all else, even sacrificing your safety and health in order to cut down the enemy, but there’s little actual backlash involved. I like how Deathless & Sanguine Invigoration give you the ability to keep fighting if you keep killing, but it doesn’t really feel like the Berserker sphere is about damage at the cost of everything else. Let me sacrifice AC for damage. Let me inflict horrific status effects on the enemy at the cost of my health and condition. Let me cut a bloody windmill through the enemy ranks only to collapse after the battle is finished due to being low on hit points.

The Berserker Sphere has a lot of potential... but I think the Sunder needs to either be removed or improved on significantly, and it needs a lot more backlash in order to really be a ‘Berserker’ Sphere.

Final Rating: 6.5/10.

Alright, the first of the two unarmed sphere’s, through unlike Open Hand Boxing isn’t exclusively unarmed. On the one hand I like this, as it means you aren’t punished for not wanting to fight unarmed, but on the other hand, it gives it a rather mixed identity. It’s not really ‘Boxing’ if your using a honking big sword taller than yourself, is it?

Regardless, the Counter Punch talent is solid to start with. Focusing instead on waiting for the enemy to attack you and striking back in retaliation when they leave themselves vulnerable. Personally I think you should scale the damage at +1 damage per 2 BAB instead of +2 damage per 4 BAB. Smoother progressions in power are always good, and saying ‘I add half my BAB to the attack’ sounds a whole lot more exciting than ‘I add +2 damage per 4 BAB’

As for the rest of the rest of the Sphere, most of the (counter) talents seem very hit or miss. For example several of them such as Launching Uppercut, Liver Shot and Clinch (why Clinch and Dig in Blow aren’t counter talents when Focusing Counter is, confuses me) require you to take extra actions in order to gain the Counter-Punch bonuses, despite the fact your already needing to ready an action and be attacked first. But then you have Haymaker and Terrifying Hook which do not require extra actions. Personally I feel like the (counter) talents shouldn’t require extra actions to activate, it already has pretty gated requirements to use. Oh and I feel like Launching Uppercut should be a Bull Rush attempt straight upwards, with a minimum of 10ft, as hitting someone 20ft into the air at level 20 is incredibly bland, and it gives more synergy with other Spheres.

To finish off... Tight Guard shouldn’t give a Shield bonus as it clashes with Balanced Defence and having a shield (which can be a light weapon). Rope a Dope shouldn’t require a martial focus, fatigued and exhausted aren’t worth it and Read the Rhythm is just... lame. Maybe if it gave you +2 bonus for Combat Maneuvers it’ll be worth it. But +2 to opposed skill checks? That’s like what, Bluff vs Sense Motive for Feint? And that’s it? Not worth a Move Action for. In summary: I like the Counter Punch and light weapon focus (through I feel that you should be able to take Heavy Counter again to make it work with all of the light weapon mentions in the Sphere), but a lot of the talents fall flat and feel lackluster and not really worth dropping into the Sphere for. Too many actions and too much Martial Focus use to really give the Counter Punch fighting style a real sense of power to it.

Final Rating: 5/10.

Oh boy, is this a mixed bag for sure... the base ability of the Sphere is great - at first. Being able to Dual Wield without needing to use a full-attack action to do so. However, the fact it has zero scaling means that as the game goes on and on, all you’ll get is one extra attack with your off-hand weapon. Instead of cutting the enemy to shred with a flurry from both weapons. Considering the fluff of the Sphere itself talks about a Dazzling attack routine, it is very much a missed opportunity.

Honestly the talent which exemplifies this the most is Dancing Display, the ability to move after attacking sounds great... until you look at the Scout Sphere and see there is a talent to move 5ft after every successful attack. Talents such as Crushing Combo, Defensive Whirl, Dual Opportunity and High-Low Combination have the potential to be great... but as just too weak to actually mean anything exciting. The most powerful talents are Impossible Reload and Mixed Assault, which rewards ranged Dual Wielding, instead of what most people use - melee.

In summary: Dual Wielding is great for dipping in, but beyond that it has a long way to go to really give us the ‘dazzling attack routine’ it, itself talks about.

Final Rating: 4/10.

Ooooh boy those this Sphere have problems. Lots and lots of problems. Focusing on Disarm - which itself is only useful against a very limited amount of enemies - and bleed damage. With Bleed damage not just being easy to grab resistance off, but incredibly easy to deal with if you have any healing abilities at all. The base sphere is incredibly, incredibly overwhelming and needs substantial buffs. Let me ignore an AoO for Disarming even if they are not bleeding thank you very much, and allow me to make them bleed whenever I disarm them, not just with an attack option or AoO, and then the base sphere will actually be worth dipping into to start.

From there, Dueling is a jumbled mess. And Stay Down! Can’t decide whenever or not it's Acrobatics or Reflex, Bind Weapon hurts you as much as it hurts the opponent. Talents like Blooded Skeptic, Scar Tissue and Hand Slasher are very specific bonuses that I don’t see anyone taking, and Talents that might be worth using such as Swift Slice and Traitorous Blade cost extra actions that you might not be able to afford, through Traitorous Blade eventually becomes a free action whilst Swift Slice costs an AoO instead for some strange reason.

Honestly, Dueling needs a way to bypass bleeding immunity badly, even if it doesn’t flat out negation of it. It needs a way to use disarm against foes without a weapon that does NOT hurt you as much as it hurts them, Long Cuts should be made to just let you add you BAB instead of +5 for every +5 BAB, and a lot of the talents need significant buffs to make them worth taking at all. Especially the talents that require you to burn your Martial Focus.

Final Rating: 2/10.

Fencing is one of there Sphere’s I like the most. It’s Base Sphere alone is by far one of the strongest, giving you free bluff ranks, along with a psuedo Sneak Attack that whilst might not have the greatest damage, the non-rogue restriction makes that extra damage more than satisfying enough.

A lot of it’s talents are strong as well. Making you able to Feint against other targets, and without a weapon. Making your feinting stronger, even able to attach an attack with it (through I dislike how you need to expand your focus to make it an AoO), and giving us the powerful Parry and Riptose ability. Even feats like Lunge and Impassable Defense give you flexibility, allowing you to fight defensively yet still have the ability to strike back against the opponent. The only issue I have with Fencing... is exploit talents.

You have 5 exploit talents. Hand Slash, Leg Slash and Distract Blades are great. Face Slash in contrast is extremely bland, and I fail to see why Belt Cutter needs your focus when Hand Slash didn’t. On top of that, 5 exploit talents honestly doesn’t give us much choice. Can’t we have an exploit talent to trip them? Maybe an exploit talent which leaves them vulnerable, leaving them either flat-footed, or with an AC penalty if already flat-footed? Maybe one that creates an opening, temporarily reduce DR, or increasing crit-range for you and maybe your allies? There’s a lot of potential here, but at the moment it’s significantly lacking and dragging the Sphere down.

Final Rating: 9/10.

Now this Sphere is very strong with a few let downs. The base sphere is very strong, free ranks in stealth, plus an ability to use either knowledge or perception to scout an enemy for weaknesses. Very, very good indeed! Yet this leads on to one of the biggest problems of the Scout Sphere, there is a lot of abilities to increase your mobility and stealth, which is great. But not many abilities that take full advantage of the Scouting ability.

Discern Condition is more fluff than anything else, Discern Tells is great for out of combat encounters, but Find Gap and Identify Rhythms seem to happen as soon as you scout someone, instead of choosing when to activate the bonuses when fighting scouted foes, and whilst Target Weakness is undoubtedly the best ability of the bunch... the lack of any scaling at all, and the way it works for only one attack dead makes even that an uncertain pick up.

Basically, the Scout Sphere needs more abilities that make better use of the Scouting ability, and the abilities it does have need improving.

Final Rating: 7/10.

And the final sphere to review... and it’s going to be short. Base Sphere is awesome, through +2 AC for a AoO tends not to be all that great to start with. Many great talents, none of which really needing to be upgraded or tweaked beyond what was covered in the very first section, and whilst more (deflect) talents would be lovely, in all honestly the choices we have already are fantastic.

Final Rating: 10/10

[Ualaa]

In the case of a normal druid, with Wildshape, or a spheres of power caster with an alteration transformation going...

Can I use any of the unarmed combat type spheres (Boxing, Open Hand, etc), which all seem to have the language 'unarmed strike', with my natural attacks?

[N. Jolly]

@Bladewolf; thanks for the feedback. As curator of Boxing and Dual Wielding, I'm going to take another look at things since it's probably been too long since I've given both spheres a full length retread and see what does and doesn't need focus, as there was a time where we were more conservative with it, and there are some things that could probably stand to be reexamined.

[The Blade Wolf]

You are welcome. Though I would also suggest giving the 'Martial Focus' section a read over. It is by far the most important of them, and it touches on several problems I have with the Sphere system as a whole, rather than the problems with the individual spheres.

[NomGarret]

In the case of a normal druid, with Wildshape, or a spheres of power caster with an alteration transformation going...

Can I use any of the unarmed combat type spheres (Boxing, Open Hand, etc), which all seem to have the language 'unarmed strike', with my natural attacks?

As far as I can tell, you need Open Hand: Bestial Training.

[khadgar567]

As far as I can tell, you need Open Hand: Bestial Training.
but still a tradition or two can help more on upcoming shiftier class to( ultimate wilderness one)

[NomGarret]

@Bladewolf: martial focus can also be regained by the full defense action, so everyone has a standard action method by default. The one minute of rest seems odd, given that, but it gives cover against jerk GMs who say "you didn't declare that while you were resting, you spent a moment pointing your shield at the darkness like a paranoid, crazy person, so no focus for you."

Battered has a heading in the AR document. It gives -2 CMD and other creatures no longer provoke from combat maneuvers.

[N. Jolly]

but still a tradition or two can help more on upcoming shiftier class to( ultimate wilderness one)

Agreed, we're going to be adding bestial training as an option to one of our unarmed traditions to make up for this. As for Martial Focus, it's 1 minute as a non action, a full round action that has to be taken for that purpose, or focus talents which are averagely a move action.

[The Blade Wolf]

Very well, I fully admit that I had missed that the Standard Action of Total Defense actually gives you back your Martial Focus. I am still not entirely happy with how the Martial Focus functions of course, as that was only one of many complaints. But I will have to improve my rating because of it.

[Ssalarn]

I don’t like how Martial Focus is implemented at the moment. The fact it takes an entire minute to redo from the start, and that you have to pick up specific talents in there Sphere’s in order to have a solid way of regaining it without spending 10 rounds doing so, is also annoying. I really believe that Martial Focus should only take a Full-Round Action to regain, and that the individuals Sphere’s should each have at least 1 way of regaining their Martial Focus quicker than a Full-Round Action built in. It doesn’t have to be incredibly fast mind you, like a move action or part of another Full-Round Action... but I do believe they should be built in options to get the Martial Focus back swiftly instead of having to pick up specific talents.

You appear to have a fundamental misunderstanding of how focus works. It is a standard action, Total Defense (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html#total-defense), for absolutely any character to regain martial focus. It also automatically resets after 1 minute so that you don't have to worry about declaring that you're taking an action to regain it after every combat. Moving it to a full-round action would actually be a downgrade.

The reasons that focus recovery methods are in their own talents is several-fold-
1) If it was baked into every sphere there would inevitably be spheres that people took simply because the recovery method was most favorable to a particular build and style.

2) If every character ends up with 1/2 a dozen recovery methods for free, there's no point in placing limitations on powerful talents since there's not going to be any meaningful gate on recovery.

3) Essentially every SoM class already has their own unique way of regaining focus. Most of them don't even need to spend any additional resources. This means that most SoM classes will have at least two action options to regain focus without spending any talents (typically a move and a standard, but often a standard and an immediate), and many more will end up with 3 or 4 with minimal investment.

[The Blade Wolf]

Being that my misunderstanding had already been addressed and corrected, then I shall address the only point that is actually worth discussing at the moment:


3) Essentially every SoM class already has their own unique way of regaining focus

And none of the Spheres of Might archetypes does.

[khadgar567]

Being that my misunderstanding had already been addressed and corrected, then I shall address the only point that is actually worth discussing at the moment:



And none of the Spheres of Might archetypes does.
but you have diffrent mojos to adress the loss like mutagen or same amount of feats like conscript or deeds.

[The Blade Wolf]

.... I fail to see how this is relevant at all to how I find myself unimpressed by how Martial Focus is current utilised. Both in how difficult it is to regain (Having it be part of the Total Defence Action does mean you have an option to regain it as a standard action yes, but that is still the loss of a standard action. You need them to attack), and how more often than not it feels like you are not expanding it for effects that are actually worth the cost.

[Ssalarn]

Being that my misunderstanding had already been addressed and corrected, then I shall address the only point that is actually worth discussing at the moment:

Was just taking the time to give you a thorough response.




And none of the Spheres of Might archetypes does.

No, but they all have the default standard action recovery method and the ability to gain other focus recovery talents.

Fewer than 20% of our talents actually require you to expend focus. There are only two spheres where you even have to expend focus to gain the sphere's full benefits. One of the most common uses of focus is free for every character; blowing it as an immediate action to save yourself from a save you can't afford to lose, and that ability can actually be used out of combat against traps and easily recovered afterwards.


.... I fail to see how this is relevant at all to how I find myself unimpressed by how Martial Focus is current utilised. Both in how difficult it is to regain (Having it be part of the Total Defence Action does mean you have an option to regain it as a standard action yes, but that is still the loss of a standard action. You need them to attack), and how more often than not it feels like you are not expanding it for effects that are actually worth the cost.

Pretty debatable. As I mentioned, fewer than 20% of our over 400 talents require you to expend focus. Almost every single one of them is a damage multiplier, which is why they each require focus expenditure, to limit their stackability. There's only two spheres that even really require you to expend focus, Berserker and Sniper. Outside of those two spheres you have 21 other spheres to choose from that can be used to build characters who don't even need to expend focus at all if they don't want to worry about it, saving it for an emergency saving throw.

[N. Jolly]

.... I fail to see how this is relevant at all to how I find myself unimpressed by how Martial Focus is current utilised. Both in how difficult it is to regain (Having it be part of the Total Defence Action does mean you have an option to regain it as a standard action yes, but that is still the loss of a standard action. You need them to attack), and how more often than not it feels like you are not expanding it for effects that are actually worth the cost.

How do you need them to attack, you can take a TDA without needing any prompting as far as I'm aware. It's better if they attack you since you benefit from the AC bonus, but you don't need them to attack, and there's still the focus talent to help with that. I'm also not sure what you believe focus to be worth since you're saying that the talents are not worth the cost.

[The Blade Wolf]

Okay. Enough of the quickly made replies. I’m going to sit down, and hammer out exactly what is wrong with Martial Focus at the moment.

Tl:dr: It is very underwhelming.

The Martial Focus is a concept that I am very surely draws heavily on the Psionic Focus from D&D 3.5 edition. A focus that you need to expend in order to activate several powerful effects, or keep in place in order to fuel other, more passive benefits. It also has a base ability to expand it - to Take 15 for Concentration checks - but most of the time, you used Psionic Focus to fuel feats. Which was great, as these feats were powerful. Deep Impact to make your attack a touch attack, Metapsionics in order to augment your psionic powers, or Psycarnum Infusion to flood a soulmeld or feat with essentia for a single round. These are all great, powerful reasons to use the Psionic focus, and with Psionic Meditation you can regain it as a move action, and then use abilities such as Hustle to get an extra move action, or use abilities such as Dimensional Hop to move around the battlefield without using a move action.

Martial Focus... just, doesn’t really have the same impact to me. A major problem is that the base bonus you get from expanding it, being able to take 13 for a Fortitude or Reflex Save, is insanely powerful and can easily save you character from death if used correctly. This means that the other abilities that you need to expand a martial focus for are either irrelevant, or so very powerful that it’s any wonder that you take it at all. Which in turn, makes what Martial Focus is actually worth expending for incredibly inconsistent. Create Opening during a feint into free movement? Great! Belt Cutter letting me add a Dirty Trick onto Fatal Thrust? Not so great, esecpailly as Hand Slasher lets me disarm without using a Martial Focus.

See, what makes Psionic Focus great is that even if it takes a Move Action to get it back, there are ways in the system in order to get around it, like Hustle to change a swift action into a move action. Sphere’s of Might however... doesn’t have that. If you expand a standard action in order to regain it... well, hope you don’t mind doing nothing else for the turn as you need a standard action to perform an attack action and there’s no way around that! Using Focusing Counter to regain your Martial Focus as a move action? Better hope that the guy your fighting doesn’t decide to slip around your unmoving ass and attack your squishy friends instead. How about Focusing Feint, turning your swift action into regaining your focus? Better, quite a bit better, but if you want to use a talent like Feint Strike, Footwork or many other talents that require a swift or immediate action, then your going to have a hard time managing it all.

In summary: I think Martial Focus should be easier to regain, and at the same time require more talents require expending it in order to use them. Make Martial Focus a significant focus of it, and make people have to think between expanding it for a talent or saving it to fuel it’s feats. It is far, far too easy to just forget it completely and make builds that use it just for the Take 13 ability, which makes it a very underwhelming class feature.

[A.J.Gibson]

My fix for martial focus would be to make it a number: you need a minimum number to pull off the big moves, and other moves increase it. You focus keeps going up, making you more powerful as ombat goes on (kinda the opposite of casters). As a simple yes/no it's a bit boring.

[Ssalarn]

.... I fail to see how this is relevant at all to how I find myself unimpressed by how Martial Focus is current utilised. Both in how difficult it is to regain (Having it be part of the Total Defence Action does mean you have an option to regain it as a standard action yes, but that is still the loss of a standard action. You need them to attack), and how more often than not it feels like you are not expanding it for effects that are actually worth the cost.



In summary: I think Martial Focus should be easier to regain, and at the same time require more talents require expending it in order to use them. Make Martial Focus a significant focus of it, and make people have to think between expanding it for a talent or saving it to fuel it’s feats. It is far, far too easy to just forget it completely and make builds that use it just for the Take 13 ability, which makes it a very underwhelming class feature.

...So it's too hard to regain and not worth the cost, but it's also not necessary and too easy to ignore. Have you considered that both these things together actually mean it's right where it should be? Just like psionic focus, you don't need to spend it outside of certain builds, but it always has some value.

It's also not a class feature. Thunderous Blows and Rapid Assault are class features. Martial Focus is a free option that every martial gets when they learn a combat talent, which means that for classes like the Fighter they gain an option to help compensate for their weak saves by being able to roll above average in addition to whatever talent they pick up, and for dedicated SoM characters they can balance as much or as little around having or expending martial focus as they want.

It also means that if a player finds the relative simplicity of martial characters to be a drawing factor, they can avoid the resource juggling game entirely and focus on "always on" effects and talents that only require them to have martial focus, saving it as a clutch option for when they absolutely can't afford to fail a save.

The ability to tailor how much or how little you rely on martial focus is a feature, not a bug. It's one of many, many tools we offer, and the ability to forego using it and simply bypass big damage boosters for reliable static benefits is an intentional bridge for players who don't like having to juggle a bunch of variables.


My fix for martial focus would be to make it a number: you need a minimum number to pull off the big moves, and other moves increase it. You focus keeps going up, making you more powerful as ombat goes on (kinda the opposite of casters). As a simple yes/no it's a bit boring.

That would be Tension, a Striker class feature. Martial Focus, as noted, is a facilitator. It gates certain abilities that aren't intended to be stacked together, gives everyone with access to it a free save-boosting option, and can be incorporated into a build as much or as little as the player desires.

[The Blade Wolf]

...So it's too hard to regain and not worth the cost, but it's also not necessary and too easy to ignore. Have you considered that both these things together actually mean it's right where it should be? Just like psionic focus, you don't need to spend it outside of certain builds, but it always has some value.

Oh sure. Go ahead and use what I said in my hastily thrown together reply against me when I decide it's best to take a step back and properly explain my issues with the feature. I mean it's not like the entire point of taking a few moments to put together was my points was because I realised I was coming across badly and decided it was best to make sure what my points actually were, thus meaning that what I had previously said in the discussion were not significant anymore.

On the actual point of discussion, however: No. No, it does not mean that it's right where it should be. Psionic Focus works because you can create builds that revolve almost entirely around it. Martial Focus fails because you can't make builds that revolve entirely around it. Psionic Focus works because it is part of an entirely different subsystem: Psionic Powers. Martial Focus fails because the subsystem it's part of is not significantly different. Psionic Focus works because you can work around it's action consumption within the system. Martial Focus fails because you cannot work around its action consumption within the system.

Psionic Focus works almost entirely with feats and feats alone. Allowing you to use Psionic Powers without any issue. Martial Focus however is tied entirely to the talents of Sphere's of Might, meaning that you are unable to use the talents to their full potential without interacting with it, yet it often feels like it's not worth expanding your Martial Focus because the base effect is so high. If Martial Focus functioned more like Psionic Focus, then it wouldn't be an issue... but at the moment, it functions in a very different way, and this way makes it significantly less elegant and rewarding to use.

[Ssalarn]

On the actual point of discussion, however: No. No, it does not mean that it's right where it should be. Psionic Focus works because you can create builds that revolve almost entirely around it. Martial Focus fails because you can't make builds that revolve entirely around it.

Sure you can. Berserker and Sniper both offer competitive ways to build around expending your focus if you're so inclined, and those are just the ones that do it from base.



Psionic Focus works because it is part of an entirely different subsystem: Psionic Powers. Martial Focus fails because the subsystem it's part of is not significantly different. Psionic Focus works because you can work around it's action consumption within the system. Martial Focus fails because you cannot work around its action consumption within the system.

Except... You can. It's just as easy to get ways to regain martial focus as psionic focus (easier, in fact), and there are multiple ways to manipulate the action economy involved, as well as an option for gaining a second focus.



Psionic Focus works almost entirely with feats and feats alone. Allowing you to use Psionic Powers without any issue. Martial Focus however is tied entirely to the talents of Sphere's of Might, meaning that you are unable to use the talents to their full potential without interacting with it, yet it often feels like it's not worth expanding your Martial Focus because the base effect is so high. If Martial Focus functioned more like Psionic Focus, then it wouldn't be an issue... but at the moment, it functions in a very different way, and this way makes it significantly less elegant and rewarding to use.

Talents are much like feats. In many instances they just are replacements for feats, occasionally with cool riders and effects tacked on that you can manipulate with focus, either by having it or expending it. You're really creating distinctions where there are none. The fact that focus gives you the choice of whether or not you build into it or out from it is a feature, not a bug. Many people like martial characters for simplicity, and being able choose how much interaction you have with it gives you the maximum amount of flexibility in character building without creating demands on what you must or must not do.

[The Blade Wolf]

Sure you can. Berserker and Sniper both offer competitive ways to build around expending your focus if you're so inclined, and those are just the ones that do it from base.

The Sniper Sphere is like, the one exception. The Berserker Sphere, not so much. Which you would know about if you read my thoughts on that Sphere earlier.


Except... You can. It's just as easy to get ways to regain martial focus as psionic focus (easier, in fact), and there are multiple ways to manipulate the action economy involved, as well as an option for gaining a second focus.

Except, I can't. There is no way for me to turn a swift action into a move action. There's no way for me to move around the battlefield as a swift action. There's no way for me to regain my martial focus as a swifter-than-move-action without having to perform another action first which may or may not succeed. The only talent that that doesn't act like this is Barrage Combat's Mobile Combatant... which is just very out of place in that Sphere and ridiculously efficient.


Talents are much like feats. In many instances they just are replacements for feats, occasionally with cool riders and effects tacked on that you can manipulate with focus, either by having it or expending it. You're really creating distinctions where there are none. The fact that focus gives you the choice of whether or not you build into it or out from it is a feature, not a bug. Many people like martial characters for simplicity, and being able choose how much interaction you have with it gives you the maximum amount of flexibility in character building without creating demands on what you must or must not do.

Except that Martial Focus doesn't give you the choice of whether or not your build into it or not. You either pick the one Sphere that does actually function well with the Martial Focus, the Sniper Sphere. Or you completely and utterly ignore it because none of the current talents are worth expanding your Martial Focus to use. I'm not creating distinctions where there are none. I'm attempting to point out the singificant, tremendous errors in how Martial Focus is currently being used as a mechanical in Sphere's of Might and you are ignoring every single word I say.

[Ualaa]

As far as I can tell, you need Open Hand: Bestial Training.

Thanks for the suggestion.

That wasn't exactly what I was looking for, as it seems to convert say a 'Claw' attack into the equivalent of an unarmed strike... getting additional attacks based on a higher BAB.

I was looking for a Spheres of Might option, for utilizing say a Claw/Claw/Bite attack routine, with maybe Tentacles and Hooves added, or whatever.

Natural attacks, as natural attacks.
But using Spheres of Might, so they're more than just the equivalent of a plain jane... swing at d20+x for xD6+y damage.

[Ssalarn]

The Sniper Sphere is like, the one exception. The Berserker Sphere, not so much. Which you would know about if you read my thoughts on that Sphere earlier.



Except, I can't. There is no way for me to turn a swift action into a move action. There's no way for me to move around the battlefield as a swift action. There's no way for me to regain my martial focus as a swifter-than-move-action without having to perform another action first which may or may not succeed. The only talent that that doesn't act like this is Barrage Combat's Mobile Combatant... which is just very out of place in that Sphere and ridiculously efficient.



Except that Martial Focus doesn't give you the choice of whether or not your build into it or not. You either pick the one Sphere that does actually function well with the Martial Focus, the Sniper Sphere. Or you completely and utterly ignore it because none of the current talents are worth expanding your Martial Focus to use. I'm not creating distinctions where there are none. I'm attempting to point out the singificant, tremendous errors in how Martial Focus is currently being used as a mechanical in Sphere's of Might and you are ignoring every single word I say.

You should calm down before we really do start ignoring you. We aren't, by the way. We are processing your feedback for legitimate, actionable items while taking it in the context of our many other playtesters and backers, as well as hours and hours of playtest reports. You have opinions that you believe are facts. They aren't. In instances where you made good points, like Boxing's over-reliance on immediate actions, we've already made changes to resolve those actionable items.

You need to understand, this is not your book. You are not a designer. Your opinion is no more important than any other playtester's, and as you'll note in the playtest guidelines, acting like an entitled brat and attacking members of the design team will make your opinion matter less, at least as far as the weight we're going to give it in consideration.

You're not a victim, you're not being ignored, and we will not be rewriting the book based on your opinions, particularly when they represent a minority of our backers. Clearly delivered, legitimate feedback will be read, processed, and acted upon. Unclear feedback will be questioned, challenged, and tested until it is either clarified to an actionable item or determined to be an opinion that we do not consider actionable. No one has anything against you. None of us even know you beyond the fact that you're someone who doesn't like focus and has provided inconsistent and even contradictory feedback. Take the time, make your case on a point by point basis, and we will either acknowledge or refute those points, acting upon them as appropriate.

[Ssalarn]

Thanks for the suggestion.

That wasn't exactly what I was looking for, as it seems to convert say a 'Claw' attack into the equivalent of an unarmed strike... getting additional attacks based on a higher BAB.

I was looking for a Spheres of Might option, for utilizing say a Claw/Claw/Bite attack routine, with maybe Tentacles and Hooves added, or whatever.

Natural attacks, as natural attacks.
But using Spheres of Might, so they're more than just the equivalent of a plain jane... swing at d20+x for xD6+y damage.

Natural attacks are something of an aberration as far as combat goes. They're either overwhelming as part of a full attack or pounce, or generally mediocre in any other circumstances. The GM Toolbox chapter has talents for most natural attack forms that give riders, effects, or open up options, but in many instances the "get 12 natural attacks and devour your enemy" routine is contrary to the structure of the system.

[Ualaa]

Thanks for the insight.

I guess I'll wait for a peak at the GM's Toolbox, to see what the options are for natural attacks.

[The Blade Wolf]

Take the time, make your case on a point by point basis, and we will either acknowledge or refute those points, acting upon them as appropriate.

... What do you think I've been doing today? Apart from the fact that my points as never been acknowledged and always refuted despite the fact that those refutions don't make any sense at all and completely ignore what I was saying. All I've been doing is making my case on a point by point basis. Even realising when I am getting caught up in the moment and taking the time to catch my breath and write out a proper, calm response.

The fact I have nothing to speak of this effort but refusal to consider anything I say might have any grain of truth to it has what lead me to my current state of frustration.

I mean really. How hard is it to see the differences between Psionic Focus and Martial Focus? Psionic Focus works because the Psionic Power Point system has no direct relation to it, and instead function directly as an addition that you can utilizie via feats. Martial Focus doesn't work because the Talent system is directly intwined with it, and the attempt to make it a feature that you can opt into or opt out of has completely and utterly failed to the point where the choice is entirely decided by your Spheres.

And don't even think about spouting 'But Talents ARE Feats!' because no. No they are not. They are Talents. Not feats. Feats don't come in Spheres.

[Ssalarn]

Thanks for the insight.

I guess I'll wait for a peak at the GM's Toolbox, to see what the options are for natural attacks.

No need to wait!

GM Toolbox Playtest Preview (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CfySUiv_3UgaVKMCXwNvlJurHF5qSKso1LUrg26vgdQ/edit?usp=sharing)

We're adding new monsters pretty regularly at this point.

[Ssalarn]

... What do you think I've been doing today? Apart from the fact that my points as never been acknowledged and always refuted despite the fact that those refutions don't make any sense at all and completely ignore what I was saying. All I've been doing is making my case on a point by point basis. Even realising when I am getting caught up in the moment and taking the time to catch my breath and write out a proper, calm response.

The fact I have nothing to speak of this effort but refusal to consider anything I say might have any grain of truth to it has what lead me to my current state of frustration.


I'm sorry you're frustrated. We believe you to be objectively wrong on many points. You think you're right and can't be convinced otherwise, and are compounding this with a bad attitude.



I mean really. How hard is it to see the differences between Psionic Focus and Martial Focus? Psionic Focus works because the Psionic Power Point system has no direct relation to it, and instead function directly as an addition that you can utilizie via feats. Martial Focus doesn't work because the Talent system is directly intwined with it, and the attempt to make it a feature that you can opt into or opt out of has completely and utterly failed to the point where the choice is entirely decided by your Spheres.

This is a big block of opinion. No facts here, nothing actionable, just you loudly stating opinions as facts.



And don't even think about spouting 'But Talents ARE Feats!' because no. No they are not. They are Talents. Not feats. Feats don't come in Spheres.

Uhm, not to sink to the same level of childishness, but don't tell me what to do. Talents are modeled off of feats. They acknowledge that not all feats are equal and restructure many of the weaker ones into a more affordable and flexible system. You can buy them all at a rate of 1 talent per feat. A Fighter can take them in place of his bonus feats. Just like feats, they build off the basic capabilities created by your skills, proficiencies, and class chassis. They are, in fact, rebuilt and restructured feats. I know, because I helped write them.

Now, you can calmly and politely provide feedback and we will give it fair consideration. But you need to understand that you are presenting opinions, opinions which are just one amongst hundreds, and we will treat them as such. We are not obligated to make changes based on what you find acceptable, but instead we will make changes on what our combined experience as designers who've been working on successful books for years leads us to believe is right, informed and influenced by the design goals we laid out for the project and the cumulative data of dozens of spreadsheets, hundreds of playtesters, and hours and hours of playtest game logs. If you continue to claim that you are being ignored, despite multiple members of the design team responding to you and even making same day updates based on your legitimate feedback, then we will take that as the disrespect it is and we really will ignore you, because we have a lot of feedback to go through and this book is scheduled to be finished this month so we can move on to other projects like the Champions of the Spheres book that was funded as part of this Kickstarter.

[Mehangel]

Uhm, not to sink to the same level of childishness, but don't tell me what to do. Talents are modeled off of feats. They acknowledge that not all feats are equal and restructure many of the weaker ones into a more affordable and flexible system. You can buy them all at a rate of 1 talent per feat. A Fighter can take them in place of his bonus feats. Just like feats, they build off the basic capabilities created by your skills, proficiencies, and class chassis. They are, in fact, rebuilt and restructured feats. I know, because I helped write them.

You do realize that just because a ability X or Y can be purchased with feats doesn't mean that they are by their nature the same as feats right? Case-in-point Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana), which by your logic appears to mean that every spell is equivalently a feat.

[Ssalarn]

You do realize that just because a ability X or Y can be purchased with feats doesn't mean that they are by their nature the same as feats right? Case-in-point Expanded Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/expanded-arcana), which by your logic appears to mean that every spell is equivalently a feat.

That is a false equivalency. Combat Talents are structured to build off the base system, just like feats, and include "Associated Feats" specifically to clarify that many of those talents are, in fact, full replacements for those feats.
Another poster decided to try and preempt a response because they already knew what the answer was. While talents are talents, and not called feats, the way that they work is modeled after feats. Their structure and basic implementation, as well as the purpose they serve, is the same. They're not magic. They're not spells. They're abilities that interact with your core functions as a character and build off them, permanent parts of what your character is and what they can do, presented with better equity and flexibility than exists in core feats. By intention, many of them have much more in common with feats than any system of magic, and are heavily influenced by psionic feats, which share the same structure of either giving you a powerful ability to expend focus on, or a static benefit that requires that focus.
The poster I was responding to wanted to deny that equivalency, but that equivalency exists, is easily comparable, and shows clearly in the design. The very fact that they attempted to preemptively cut off the conversation shows that.

[The Blade Wolf]

That is a false equivalency. Combat Talents are structured to build off the base system, just like feats, and include "Associated Feats" specifically to clarify that many of those talents are, in fact, full replacements for those feats.

Except, here's the thing. They aren't feats. They are Talents

Feats, you get one at every odd level, and that never changes. Sure, some classes give you bonus feats, but that's a class feature specific to the class, and not part of the system as a whole. Talents on the other hand, are not given to us at the same rate of feats. In fact, there is three different rates you can pick up talents. That alone is a significant enough distinction which shows that no. Talents and feats are not the same thing. But guess what? It goes even further than that! Because the Talents are split into groups known as Sphere's, and if you have a Sphere, you can grab basically any single talent that's available to you there. Feats don't function like that. Feats have prerequisites that stop you from taking some of the stronger feats right away or are locked to a specific level, which the Sphere's don't have - Legendary Talents notwithstanding. Plus there is not one single feat which functions as a prerequisite for 20+ feats like the base sphere's does. Not even Point Blank Shot has that many feats linked to it!

So in summary: It does not matter how much you might declare that Combat Talents are built off the base system and function just like feats. The way you have implemented Combat Talents means that They. Are. Not. Feats. So the entire 'Talents are just feats' bull**** you use in order to dismiss my arguments as to why Psionic Focus functions where Martial Focus fails, falls flat on its face. That's on top of how you completely and utterly ignore how I point out that the Psionic's Power Point system is completely separate from the Psionic Focus and that the Martial Focus is completely entwined with the Talent system, yet is so half-heartedly implemented that it falls flat on its face.

Edit: I can't believe that I can go to sleep, wake up and get instantly frustrated again. Good god its like banging your head against a brick wall, trying to get people to understand clear and 100% fact. The Talents might be based on feats, they might be an attempt to balance several feats, their might even be an option to repalce feats with talents. But the simple matter of fact is that they are not feats

[khadgar567]

Except, here's the thing. They aren't feats. They are Talents

Feats, you get one at every odd level, and that never changes. Sure, some classes give you bonus feats, but that's a class feature specific to the class, and not part of the system as a whole. Talents on the other hand, are not given to us at the same rate of feats. In fact, there is three different rates you can pick up talents. That alone is a significant enough distinction which shows that no. Talents and feats are not the same thing. But guess what? It goes even further than that! Because the Talents are split into groups known as Sphere's, and if you have a Sphere, you can grab basically any single talent that's available to you there. Feats don't function like that. Feats have prerequisites that stop you from taking some of the stronger feats right away or are locked to a specific level, which the Sphere's don't have - Legendary Talents notwithstanding. Plus there is not one single feat which functions as a prerequisite for 20+ feats like the base sphere's does. Not even Point Blank Shot has that many feats linked to it!

So in summary: It does not matter how much you might declare that Combat Talents are built off the base system and function just like feats. The way you have implemented Combat Talents means that They. Are. Not. Feats. So the entire 'Talents are just feats' bull**** you use in order to dismiss my arguments as to why Psionic Focus functions where Martial Focus fails, falls flat on its face. That's on top of how you completely and utterly ignore how I point out that the Psionic's Power Point system is completely separate from the Psionic Focus and that the Martial Focus is completely entwined with the Talent system, yet is so half-heartedly implemented that it falls flat on its face.

Edit: I can't believe that I can go to sleep, wake up and get instantly frustrated again. Good god its like banging your head against a brick wall, trying to get people to understand clear and 100% fact.
fact kender are kleptomaniac rouges.
asumption is what you mate mate

[N. Jolly]

Except, here's the thing. They aren't feats. They are Talents

Feats, you get one at every odd level, and that never changes. Sure, some classes give you bonus feats, but that's a class feature specific to the class, and not part of the system as a whole. Talents on the other hand, are not given to us at the same rate of feats. In fact, there is three different rates you can pick up talents. That alone is a significant enough distinction which shows that no. Talents and feats are not the same thing. But guess what? It goes even further than that! Because the Talents are split into groups known as Sphere's, and if you have a Sphere, you can grab basically any single talent that's available to you there. Feats don't function like that. Feats have prerequisites that stop you from taking some of the stronger feats right away or are locked to a specific level, which the Sphere's don't have - Legendary Talents notwithstanding. Plus there is not one single feat which functions as a prerequisite for 20+ feats like the base sphere's does. Not even Point Blank Shot has that many feats linked to it!

So in summary: It does not matter how much you might declare that Combat Talents are built off the base system and function just like feats. The way you have implemented Combat Talents means that They. Are. Not. Feats. So the entire 'Talents are just feats' bull**** you use in order to dismiss my arguments as to why Psionic Focus functions where Martial Focus fails, falls flat on its face. That's on top of how you completely and utterly ignore how I point out that the Psionic's Power Point system is completely separate from the Psionic Focus and that the Martial Focus is completely entwined with the Talent system, yet is so half-heartedly implemented that it falls flat on its face.

Edit: I can't believe that I can go to sleep, wake up and get instantly frustrated again. Good god its like banging your head against a brick wall, trying to get people to understand clear and 100% fact.

Let me give my 2c here:

The way that they're similar to feats (to us) is in how their power level is structured, that's around the level of power we're shooting for with them. I agree with you that there are mechanical differences, such as how they're obtained. Their implementation is different, yes. The way we internally see them is as feat-equivalents though. That's all that can be said from our end on how we view these abilities.

I agree with you that we've used focus in a different way than psionic focus, because while that might have been a basis for martial focus, we didn't want to retread the same water completely. We thought that including them for talents would be a nice way of limiting some things, and it seems you disagree. You have given us reasons for why you believe this, and as stated, we're listening to you as much as we're listening to everyone else. All we can do is take the opinions of everyone into consideration along with the experience we have as a team for things like this. There's quite a few things on which I've given feedback where I was certain I was right (and honestly still think I am) where I wasn't listened to, and that's how things go. We can only try to make a product based on what we feel works while listening to feedback, so while I do appreciate your passion in demonstrating your point, recognize that we will make decisions based on what we believe is best for the product.

I think we all need to step back and try to realize that no one here is attempting to be malicious, there is no agenda here, and that we all wish this product to turn out the best it can be. You have stated what you believe would help, and we honestly do appreciate that, as like was said earlier, Boxer has undergone some changes to make it less immediate action dependant. Focus is however an area in which we are rather invested, and any changes to it would ripple system wide and would cause far more changes than we can reasonably deal with involving the production schedule we have set. At this point, we're happy with focus despite recognizing it does have issues (everything has issues, nothing's perfect), so any changes we would make would have to be minimal. Please recognize the situation in which we're in at the moment when making commentary, as while we could continue to change things, we do eventually have to release and drawing things out hurts we as writers as well as others involved in this process. I do hope that you continue to give feedback where you can, I will do my best to take it into account, and I hope that you have a nice day.

[The Blade Wolf]

Thank you N.Jolly for your reply, and I do apologise for allowing myself to get frustrated during this conversation. I should have tried to keep a level head about it. And thank you for explaining why you are so cautious about touching the Martial Focus at the moment, and I understand that it would cause significant delays reviewing it again (as you already went through a significant change by dropping the way you used to dedicate it to a Sphere), and that such a delay could significantly hurt the subject.

If I have time, I will review the other Spheres, as well as re-review the Boxing Sphere.

[N. Jolly]

Thank you N.Jolly for your reply, and I do apologise for allowing myself to get frustrated during this conversation. I should have tried to keep a level head about it. And thank you for explaining why you are so cautious about touching the Martial Focus at the moment, and I understand that it would cause significant delays reviewing it again (as you already went through a significant change by dropping the way you used to dedicate it to a Sphere), and that such a delay could significantly hurt the subject.

If I have time, I will review the other Spheres, as well as re-review the Boxing Sphere.

No problem, I appreciate you listening to me on this. I think it's very easy to dehumanize others here, and to forget that there's another person on the other side of the screen. At the moment the boxing changes are internal, but I should probably switch them over to the draft, as we're doing a decent amount of internal changes at the moment. This project has already gone on longer than we had hoped (once I dreamed of a Gencon release...oh those happy spring days...), and we still have a lot to include in this project.

I can promise that on our end we will do our best to listen to and respond to as much feedback as possible, but realize that we're only a small group of people, and that for some of us, this isn't a full time job so even being able to do that much as well as design is difficult. I'm aware that your emotions are just showing the passion you have for this project, the same passion we all have to make something that's really amazing and cool. I personally think we've done just that, as this project has gone beyond what I thought was possible for it, and I'm very proud to have been allowed to work on it. The SoM team will always do our best to make sure that we listen to the voices of those out there who have something to say, positive or negative, and do our best to respond to it, as people like you are why we make products; the passionate gamers who enjoy this hobby just as much as we do.

[Dracul3S]

EDIT: This has given me an idea to assist on this issue, since the idea of switching some things to full round actions is rather interesting.[/QUOTE]

I like that. Another suggestion might be to give some classes, that do not have them yet, their own ressource pool. Right now some classes are VERY focus hungry, which gets the to the wierd situation of having multiple abilities fighting for the same (very limited) ressource. Some other classes do not have to worry nearly as much. Those seem more satisfying to everyone. For them focus as is works by far better. So depending on the class and sphere choices the problem might be unnoticeable, while given a different party composition it becomes a truly massive issue. The problem is once you notice the problem it gets annoying quickly. And it causes players to dislike the whole (focus-)system a lot.

[khadgar567]

I like that. Another suggestion might be to give some classes, that do not have them yet, their own ressource pool. Right now some classes are VERY focus hungry, which gets the to the wierd situation of having multiple abilities fighting for the same (very limited) ressource. Some other classes do not have to worry nearly as much. Those seem more satisfying to everyone. For them focus as is works by far better. So depending on the class and sphere choices the problem might be unnoticeable, while given a different party composition it becomes a truly massive issue. The problem is once you notice the problem it gets annoying quickly. And it causes players to dislike the whole (focus-)system a lot.
explain pls

[NomGarret]

Yeah, are you suggesting specific classes need a class feature to handle focus? Or is it a matter of action economy? Either way, specific examples would be nice.

[Dracul3S]

No. I want focus to be ONLY used for talents and never for class features. But only as a quick fix. Classes should use their own ressources to fuel their class abilities. Not the same used for talents.

The best would be if focus would completly be removed.

Why? You can use and regain focus every turn. So it's entirely pointless as a resource. Focus-cycling is the by far most efficient way to play SoM right now. Problem is: This is not great. Once you DO note it, you quickly understand you are doing standard + move actions instead of fullround actions wich is literally the same for all purpose and intent. And that is bad. As one the big things of SoM was to move away from this.
I personally think it should be done like this: Make focus expanding abilities fullround actions and forget about a resource no one cares for.

Better yet keep focus expending abilities as they are and remove focus (and the need to regain it) anyway. It was tested in my group that way and you know what? It works perfectly fine.

[khadgar567]

No. I want focus to be ONLY used for talents and never for class features. But only as a quick fix. Classes should use their own ressources to fuel their class abilities. Not the same used for talents.

The best would be if focus would completly be removed.

Why? You can use and regain focus every turn. So it's entirely pointless as a resource. Focus-cycling is the by far most efficient way to play SoM right now. Problem is: This is not great. Once you DO note it, you quickly understand you are doing standard + move actions instead of fullround actions wich is literally the same for all purpose and intent. And that is bad. As one the big things of SoM was to move away from this.
I personally think it should be done like this: Make focus expanding abilities fullround actions and forget about a resource no one cares for.

Better yet keep focus expending abilities as they are and remove focus (and the need to regain it) anyway. It was tested in my group that way and you know what? It works perfectly fine.
I dont about you dracul but focus is good as it is both as gate to powerful stuff and nice way to give passive befits to player as full round action vs standart and move action. standart and move wins with good margin. okay damage maybe tad low for SOM but you have bunch more tools to pull stunts to effective combat armigger can be build to use diffrent damage type from literaly 1st level, sage can basicly pull son goku all day with no trouble.

so please offer opinons instead of criticize every one with out listening

[NomGarret]

Well, the first part of your request is already the case, as I can't find any class features of any of the classes that use focus, outside of those which are simply granting or modifying spheres and talents.

[Hunter Noventa]

Well, the first part of your request is already the case, as I can't find any class features of any of the classes that use focus, outside of those which are simply granting or modifying spheres and talents.

Scholar uses focus to trigger their Material Impositions on flashbangs I believe.

[Mathias1313]

I have a quick observation that bothers me a bit. Hoping someone can explain for me.

I have heard that when you guys made Spheres of power, you were very specific in not allowing Full attack action with destructive blasts as a balance points and specifically not allowing them to count as weapons as this allows some very powerful combinations.

So I would like to know the thought process behind the Sage? Free melee touch attacks that you can full attack with and count as weapons. Damage increase as per Destructive blast and for 1 talent at lvl 1 you now turn them into rays with the same chassis.

I am very curious about this as it kinda makes a better Blaster than an SoP Blaster, expecially if you combine with Barrage and or Sniping.

Just kinda curious, thanks in advance for any info.

[exelsisxax]

I have a quick observation that bothers me a bit. Hoping someone can explain for me.

I have heard that when you guys made Spheres of power, you were very specific in not allowing Full attack action with destructive blasts as a balance points and specifically not allowing them to count as weapons as this allows some very powerful combinations.

So I would like to know the thought process behind the Sage? Free melee touch attacks that you can full attack with and count as weapons. Damage increase as per Destructive blast and for 1 talent at lvl 1 you now turn them into rays with the same chassis.

I am very curious about this as it kinda makes a better Blaster than an SoP Blaster, expecially if you combine with Barrage and or Sniping.

Just kinda curious, thanks in advance for any info.
Because the Sage is a 6HD, low BAB class and chi gong deals physical damage without bonus damage? It's kind of terrible for dealing damage.

[Mehangel]

I have a quick observation that bothers me a bit. Hoping someone can explain for me.

I have heard that when you guys made Spheres of power, you were very specific in not allowing Full attack action with destructive blasts as a balance points and specifically not allowing them to count as weapons as this allows some very powerful combinations.

So I would like to know the thought process behind the Sage? Free melee touch attacks that you can full attack with and count as weapons. Damage increase as per Destructive blast and for 1 talent at lvl 1 you now turn them into rays with the same chassis.

I am very curious about this as it kinda makes a better Blaster than an SoP Blaster, expecially if you combine with Barrage and or Sniping.

Just kinda curious, thanks in advance for any info.

Because the Sage's damage scales with sage class level, not caster level, so that means that we wont have people who optimize their CL to 50+ dealing 50d6 maximized empowered quickened destructive blasts.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

I dont about you dracul but focus is good as it is both as gate to powerful stuff and nice way to give passive befits to player as full round action vs standart and move action. standart and move wins with good margin. okay damage maybe tad low for SOM but you have bunch more tools to pull stunts to effective combat armigger can be build to use diffrent damage type from literaly 1st level, sage can basicly pull son goku all day with no trouble.

so please offer opinons instead of criticize every one with out listening

Dracul was complaining that Standard+Move has the same "stand in one place the whole turn or be bad" problem as Full-Attacking does, not that Full-Attacks do more damage. And he's right. Martials already have options in combat, but they don't get used because the most efficient thing is to stand still and swing a sword, which Martial Focus doesn't fix currently.

Honestly, I like the idea of it giving passive bonuses and being expendable for the saving throw bonus, and only having to expend it for very powerful (like 1/encounter at least) tricks

[N. Jolly]

Dracul was complaining that Standard+Move has the same "stand in one place the whole turn or be bad" problem as Full-Attacking does, not that Full-Attacks do more damage. And he's right. Martials already have options in combat, but they don't get used because the most efficient thing is to stand still and swing a sword, which Martial Focus doesn't fix currently.

Honestly, I like the idea of it giving passive bonuses and being expendable for the saving throw bonus, and only having to expend it for very powerful (like 1/encounter at least) tricks

So let me ask, are you against the idea of focus being able to be regained in combat at all, along with an assumed increase in power for talents which require focus? I do feel like martial focus does help with things like this, as it allows others to play in a different fashion.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Either make it easier or harder to regain, because right now it seems like standing still, expending focus, then using your Move to regain focus is the optimal move for martials

[Mithril Leaf]

So let me ask, are you against the idea of focus being able to be regained in combat at all, along with an assumed increase in power for talents which require focus? I do feel like martial focus does help with things like this, as it allows others to play in a different fashion.

Not my personal horse I'm betting on here, but maybe let you move at half speed when regaining Martial Focus?

[N. Jolly]

Either make it easier or harder to regain, because right now it seems like standing still, expending focus, then using your Move to regain focus is the optimal move for martials

Might I ask if you've played with these mechanics? I ask because in all of the playtest games of which we've played and ran, this has never once been an issue, we've never had someone deciding to stand around and trade blows, and I'm curious if it has been an issue in other games.


Not my personal horse I'm betting on here, but maybe let you move at half speed when regaining Martial Focus?

Right now I'm trying to think of ways to increase mobility, there's a few ideas I have, but at this late stage in the game, I have to get everyone else to agree before we even begin serious talks due to how close we are to finishing.

[EldritchWeaver]

What is the exact mechanical reason, why choosing a martial tradition may only happen at 1st level? What is the exact problem that a fighter 1/armiger 1 can't be made a duplicate of an armiger 1/fighter 1?

[N. Jolly]

What is the exact mechanical reason, why choosing a martial tradition may only happen at 1st level? What is the exact problem that a fighter 1/armiger 1 can't be made a duplicate of an armiger 1/fighter 1?

The main reason is for proficiency juggling; having to readjust proficiencies in this fashion feels pretty clunky, although since you can take a martial tradition with a lot of different core classes, it shouldn't be a large issue unless you're starting with a class that doesn't have martial profs or such.

[EldritchWeaver]

The main reason is for proficiency juggling; having to readjust proficiencies in this fashion feels pretty clunky, although since you can take a martial tradition with a lot of different core classes, it shouldn't be a large issue unless you're starting with a class that doesn't have martial profs or such.

We have already retraining in the rules, so I don't see a problem with allowing it.

[NomGarret]

The key reason it works is that when you take a martial tradition you no longer gain proficiencies from multiclassing. So Armiger 1/Fighter 1 gets the martial tradition but not the additional proficiencies from fighter. Fighter 1/Armiger 1 can either keep the fighter proficiencies or take a tradition as normal for fighter. In this case you either want to plan ahead or have a DM amenable to retraining. Where it gets trickier is coming from, say, wizard where you can't start with a martial tradition. Maybe it should be changed to "1st eligible level?"

[The Blade Wolf]

The key reason it works is that when you take a martial tradition you no longer gain proficiencies from multiclassing.

That's... an incredibly serve chance to character creation which I don't think I quite enjoy the sound off.

[N. Jolly]

That's... an incredibly serve chance to character creation which I don't think I quite enjoy the sound off.

What we're doing to help alleviate this as an issue is that if you retrain the class which you took at first and didn't take a martial tradition, you gain the option of taking a martial tradition with your new class (as long as you could qualify for one), as well as allow talents to be retrained. I'm not sure if this is out of internal yet or not though.

[khadgar567]

That's... an incredibly serve chance to character creation which I don't think I quite enjoy the sound off.
I dont know about you blade wolf but ditch the paizos weapon proficiency to grab fluff appropriated one is good in my book and maybe nearly everyone's book to

[Dr_Dinosaur]

The post Blade Wolf was responding to said that you no longer gain ANY proficiencies, not "fluff-related" ones...

[N. Jolly]

Hey all, it's been a wild ride, and we're trying to take into account all of your feedback, but this is just a notice to let you know that we will officially be ending the Spheres of Might playtest on June 30th. We've all been blown away by the level of feedback that you've given, and we're working on quite a few changes that you'll be seeing in the full release. Seriously, thanks to all of you for participating, we couldn't have made this book half as good without your feedback, playtesting, and support. We sincerely hope that we've made something that you'll all enjoy,

The Spheres of Might team

[khadgar567]

Hey all, it's been a wild ride, and we're trying to take into account all of your feedback, but this is just a notice to let you know that we will officially be ending the Spheres of Might playtest on June 30th. We've all been blown away by the level of feedback that you've given, and we're working on quite a few changes that you'll be seeing in the full release. Seriously, thanks to all of you for participating, we couldn't have made this book half as good without your feedback, playtesting, and support. We sincerely hope that we've made something that you'll all enjoy,

The Spheres of Might team
happy to help

[master4sword]

Did the Equipment talent for selecting a custom selection of weapons get removed, or am I overlooking it somehow?

[Mehangel]

Did the Equipment talent for selecting a custom selection of weapons get removed, or am I overlooking it somehow?

Damn, you are right. I don't see it anymore.

[Beowulf DW]

I've built a doudle-weapon using Conscript for a game that's just getting started. No idea how he'll handle in play, but the abilities should add up to a very powerful melee combatant...Provided that I can remember all the tricks he has up his sleeve. Never thought I'd say this about a non-magic class, but I feel like this thing has too many moving parts. I might not be able to get the most out of him simply due to not being able to remember what everything is suppose to do.

I'll report back once he's seen some action.

[N. Jolly]

Did the Equipment talent for selecting a custom selection of weapons get removed, or am I overlooking it somehow?

I have no idea where that went, we'll be adding it again as it's in the internal doc. Thanks for pointing this out!


I've built a doudle-weapon using Conscript for a game that's just getting started. No idea how he'll handle in play, but the abilities should add up to a very powerful melee combatant...Provided that I can remember all the tricks he has up his sleeve. Never thought I'd say this about a non-magic class, but I feel like this thing has too many moving parts. I might not be able to get the most out of him simply due to not being able to remember what everything is suppose to do.

I'll report back once he's seen some action.

I feel ya there, I'm building the iconic Conscript, and he's got so many talents, it's difficult for me to remember all of my options here.

We also have a new version of the Brute sphere (https://docs.google.com/document/d/18GNWQDmpjanVcU70kgclv1YIwTRdSf4l8RnocE38EHQ/edit#bookmark=id.pq0wlkbvn9g) up in the guide, so let us know what you think about it. We're getting closer to the end, and we thank everyone who's participated in this playtest thus far; you've helped make this an amazing book!

[Mehangel]

I feel ya there, I'm building the iconic Conscript, and he's got so many talents, it's difficult for me to remember all of my options here.

I found that writing out stat-blocks similar to those found in Fantastical Creatures and How to Survive Them (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/199609/Fantastical-Creatures--How-to-Survive-Them-A-Students-Guide-for-Adventure-and-Study?manufacturers_id=4790), is really helpful when trying to remember options available. Which is one reason why I recommended/requested in the SoM GM document that the stat-blocks be written in a similar fashion.

[N. Jolly]

I found that writing out stat-blocks similar to those found in Fantastical Creatures and How to Survive Them (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/199609/Fantastical-Creatures--How-to-Survive-Them-A-Students-Guide-for-Adventure-and-Study?manufacturers_id=4790), is really helpful when trying to remember options available. Which is one reason why I recommended/requested in the SoM GM document that the stat-blocks be written in a similar fashion.

I'll pass that along to Adam.

Thanks to everyone who participated in the playtest, it was a lot of fun and we're looking forward to pushing through with more playtests in the future, including one for a class we didn't get the chance to include in this playtest.

[The Blade Wolf]

You are welcome, and I hope my feedback was considered useful.

[Doc_Maynot]

Anyone have any backup copies of the playtest docs? I have players in an active game playing a Conscript and a Blacksmith.

[calyst]

Doh I am in the same boat opened it up for my players and none of us saved a offline copy.

[master4sword]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cswlth5w8c9o85a/Spheres%20of%20Might%20Playtest%20Docs.zip?dl=0

Saved'em last night, so they're current as of 11:15 pm central time zone. If there were any last-second changes I didn't catch those.

[Doc_Maynot]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cswlth5w8c9o85a/Spheres%20of%20Might%20Playtest%20Docs.zip?dl=0

Saved'em last night, so they're current as of 11:15 pm central time zone. If there were any last-second changes I didn't catch those.

You are a saint.

[EldritchWeaver]

Can anyone clarify, how using claws does work with the striker's unarmed strikes? Do I get claw damage in addition to the striker attack? Or is it strictly separate?

[Ualaa]

I asked about which spheres would benefit natural attacks, and was basically told the system was not designed with natural attacks in mind.
That's not saying it wouldn't work in some way, or that it would.

Basically natural attacks are either too weak (base) or too strong (if you build for them).
That was going to be for a gestalt build, with spheres of power focusing on being a shapechanger on one side and going spheres of might on the other side.

[EldritchWeaver]

I'm not asking to add additional attacks, but if claw strikes can supplant unarmed strikes, effectively treating the claw strike as an unarmed strike.

[khadgar567]

I'm not asking to add additional attacks, but if claw strikes can supplant unarmed strikes, effectively treating the claw strike as an unarmed strike.
I think brand new sphere might be more useful for claw users.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

No way. Unlike SoP, Might needs fewer, deeper spheres imo. Plus Feral Combat Training exists, so you can at least Flurry with claws

[Doc_Maynot]

Can anyone clarify, how using claws does work with the striker's unarmed strikes? Do I get claw damage in addition to the striker attack? Or is it strictly separate?

To answer this, you'd have to use Open Hand (Bestial Training) or the a Favored Weapon Stalker Art, if you do the damage is replaced by the SoM unarmed damage as it will act like the unarmed strike for most purposes.

I have a question regarding the legendary talent Fencing (Dimensional Lunge). If you count as being in all unoccupied squares within 30' for reach and range increment purposes, does that include ones you cannot see due to walls and such? Ones above you that you couldn't actually be in due to lack of flight or similar? Ones on the floor(s) below you, or are other wise underground? If yes on the first and last ones, does that grant you awareness of those squares? Awareness of the area around them?

[Beowulf DW]

All right. Reporting back in on the monk spade using conscript. He's doing just fine so far. The only real weakness I can find is an inability to punch through DR on his own.

[stack]

After many delays, the prodigy is now available for your playtesting pleasure.

Prodigy (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1v9PDF-VAiBC1DENcm0IDeFFRPv_JmKi0lrS-rp6lk7Q/edit#)

The prodigy is a flexible mid-BAB, Mid-caster based on making a 'sequence', using a series of moves to unlock powerful finishers. They also can gain temporary talents similar to a spiritualism hedgewitch.

[digiman619]

My initial thoughts:
* Good amount of skills, especially if you choose Intelligence as your CAM/PAM.
* I really like how even though can get either magic or combat talents, but they came from the same pool. I was expecting them to get 10 of each rather than 20 total for you to mix and match.
* Is there anything stopping a prodigy from spamming the same link over and over? Or am I asking a dumb question?
* Any reason you keep saying "cast a spell" rather than "activate a sphere ability"? I suppose it's possible for a Vancian caster to multiclass into this, but you're guaranteed to have at least 2 magic talents, so why not word your abi!ity accordingly?
* Integrated Techniques is a good way to personalize your character, as does Imbue Sequence.
* Talent Blending seems like a slightly nerfed Spell Combat, but the at-will nature of spheres effects probably make that a good idea.
*Any reason Adaption was split into multiple improvements, rather than being one ability that gets additional effects at various levels like a Brawler's Martial Flexibility?
* Steady Skill is really interesting, though the 'Taking 15' remind me of psionic focus. Any particular reason you limit it to skills on the Prodigy skill list rather than any class skills they possess?
* Even though I gave Adaptation a hard time, I really like Shared Adaptation. There are definitely times where giving an ally a particular sphere ability would be very useful.
* Reflect Spell seems like a really useful ability. Thumbs up.

All in all, really good. I could see this on either extreme; either as a martial with a few tricks or a spherecaster with a modicum of martial skill. Good job.

[Aipaca]

3/4 Casting, with Martial Focus for talents.
3/4 BAB, with Might talents and Martial Focus for those as well.
6+Int skills/lvl +inbuilt take 10 or 15 mechanic.
More class features which complement both casting and combat, and often don't take up action economy.
Good Ref and Will.

Not going to lie, this seems damn strong, a little over the top.

[EldritchWeaver]

3/4 Casting, with Martial Focus for talents.
3/4 BAB, with Might talents and Martial Focus for those as well.
6+Int skills/lvl +inbuilt take 10 or 15 mechanic.
More class features which complement both casting and combat, and often don't take up action economy.
Good Ref and Will.

Not going to lie, this seems damn strong, a little over the top.

It is comparable to a magus, which is skill monkey in addition, but with a variable focus regarding martial and magic. Plus the sequences. They seem balanced on paper, but how do they hold up in reality? I fear that you can't get enough sequence-length because fights are too short. Or at best can use one longer sequence before the enemies are dead. So this feature might not end up be used that much, despite being the shtick of the class. So how much actual playtesting was done and how well did the sequences work?

[stack]

My initial thoughts:
* Good amount of skills, especially if you choose Intelligence as your CAM/PAM.
* I really like how even though can get either magic or combat talents, but they came from the same pool. I was expecting them to get 10 of each rather than 20 total for you to mix and match.
* Is there anything stopping a prodigy from spamming the same link over and over? Or am I asking a dumb question?
* Any reason you keep saying "cast a spell" rather than "activate a sphere ability"? I suppose it's possible for a Vancian caster to multiclass into this, but you're guaranteed to have at least 2 magic talents, so why not word your abi!ity accordingly?
* Integrated Techniques is a good way to personalize your character, as does Imbue Sequence.
* Talent Blending seems like a slightly nerfed Spell Combat, but the at-will nature of spheres effects probably make that a good idea.
*Any reason Adaption was split into multiple improvements, rather than being one ability that gets additional effects at various levels like a Brawler's Martial Flexibility?
* Steady Skill is really interesting, though the 'Taking 15' remind me of psionic focus. Any particular reason you limit it to skills on the Prodigy skill list rather than any class skills they possess?
* Even though I gave Adaptation a hard time, I really like Shared Adaptation. There are definitely times where giving an ally a particular sphere ability would be very useful.
* Reflect Spell seems like a really useful ability. Thumbs up.

All in all, really good. I could see this on either extreme; either as a martial with a few tricks or a spherecaster with a modicum of martial skill. Good job.
-Each component can only grant a link once per round.
-Wording: I think I just messed it up and didn't go back to check the proper wording for casting a sphere effect. Will fix.
-Had a few comments on adaptation's split formatting not working, On the list to change.
- Probably not a strong argument to not be 'any class skill'. Interested to hear if anyone would resist the change.

3/4 Casting, with Martial Focus for talents.
3/4 BAB, with Might talents and Martial Focus for those as well.
6+Int skills/lvl +inbuilt take 10 or 15 mechanic.
More class features which complement both casting and combat, and often don't take up action economy.
Good Ref and Will.

Not going to lie, this seems damn strong, a little over the top.
As noted, getting the biggest sequence abilities are going to be difficult. Also, that is why we open playtest, get more data on this stuff. There has been a suggestion to reduce it to 4 skills, but that seems low if you aren't INT based for a generalist.

It is comparable to a magus, which is skill monkey in addition, but with a variable focus regarding martial and magic. Plus the sequences. They seem balanced on paper, but how do they hold up in reality? I fear that you can't get enough sequence-length because fights are too short. Or at best can use one longer sequence before the enemies are dead. So this feature might not end up be used that much, despite being the shtick of the class. So how much actual playtesting was done and how well did the sequences work?
There has been some playtesting with positive feedback but I don't have specific comments on that at my fingertips.

[Mehangel]

Probably not a strong argument to not be 'any class skill'. Interested to hear if anyone would resist the change.

I also would like to see the ability changed to allow 'any class skill'. I personally dont keep track of where class skills come from (whether they come from race choice, traits, multiclassing, etc). However, checking to see what skills are class skills are easy, is the box checked? Then it is a class skill, no need to have the book open right infront of you.

[digiman619]

- Probably not a strong argument to not be 'any class skill'. Interested to hear if anyone would resist the change.


I also would like to see the ability changed to allow 'any class skill'. I personally dont keep track of where class skills come from (whether they come from race choice, traits, multiclassing, etc). However, checking to see what skills are class skills are easy, is the box checked? Then it is a class skill, no need to have the book open right infront of you.
Also, seeing as you already have all Knowledge skills, all 3 interaction skills and UMD on that skill list, I don't see how letting the 8 nonclass skills in on the fun would be breaking anything. Or at least not breaking anything else.

[NomGarret]

I'm going to have to look at it closer, but Im nervous about how close it compares to a combat/spiritualist hedgewitch. On the surface, the prodigy gets good reflex saves, a martial tradition, five more talents, and the sequence effects. The hedgewitch gets tradition secrets.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey so just looking at some scholar things, and how would a Scholar's pet work assuming they had both Animal Training Small and Large, while it was a Sage Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/sage-familiar-archetype/)? The increase to Intelligence looks not at all weird, but something funky happens with Sage's Knowledge. Basically it gives the familiar 2 Skill Points per level and a cap of your Familiar Level in any one skill. But since your Familiar in this case already gets some Skill Points from it's real Hit Dice, and has a skill cap normally equal to it's number of real Hit Dice, things are weird. There seem like 4 interpretations that make any sense:
Since now it has real hit dice giving Skill Points, you only use the Animal Companion points.
Since specific trumps general, you only use the rules from Sage's Knowledge, and toss out any Skill Points from the Animal Companion advancement.
You still gain the points from both sources at appropriate intervals, and you use the higher cap granted to your companion from Sage's Knowledge for all purposes.
You use both skill point sources and also both caps, so that at level 8 your familiar has 30 total Skill Points and a cap of 15 in any one skill. (Note this one is stupid but I could see someone argue for it)

I personally think 3 makes the most sense, but wanted to make sure.

[Ssalarn]

Hey so just looking at some scholar things, and how would a Scholar's pet work assuming they had both Animal Training Small and Large, while it was a Sage Familiar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/familiar/familiar-archetypes/sage-familiar-archetype/)? The increase to Intelligence looks not at all weird, but something funky happens with Sage's Knowledge. Basically it gives the familiar 2 Skill Points per level and a cap of your Familiar Level in any one skill. But since your Familiar in this case already gets some Skill Points from it's real Hit Dice, and has a skill cap normally equal to it's number of real Hit Dice, things are weird. There seem like 4 interpretations that make any sense:
Since now it has real hit dice giving Skill Points, you only use the Animal Companion points.
Since specific trumps general, you only use the rules from Sage's Knowledge, and toss out any Skill Points from the Animal Companion advancement.
You still gain the points from both sources at appropriate intervals, and you use the higher cap granted to your companion from Sage's Knowledge for all purposes.
You use both skill point sources and also both caps, so that at level 8 your familiar has 30 total Skill Points and a cap of 15 in any one skill. (Note this one is stupid but I could see someone argue for it)

I personally think 3 makes the most sense, but wanted to make sure.

I'm leaning towards the third option as well, but I'm going to try and double-check with my contacts at Paizo since this would come up for certain Shaman builds as well. I suspect it's niche enough that they haven't considered it yet, but I'd like our rulings to be consistent with theirs on the subject.

[Morty]

I'm still not sure why Striker is unarmed-only, with the possibility to expand it to light one-handed ones. I get the concept it's trying to emulate, but that concept can use all sorts of weapons.

[Mithril Leaf]

So I finally got around to reading the Troubadour and I quite love it. Is it likely to get something of the bonus feat genre in the full release?

Also you guys should probably include some language stating that Tame animals can't pick up the Beastmastery Sphere and in turn have their own Tame animals, and so on until you run out of animal merchants in town. That way lies madness.

[Hal0Badger]

This is written in kickstarter page, by Adam at 23rd of August.


Release

There is very little left for us on this end, so I am expecting Spheres of Might to be ready for layout by the end of the month. Thank you all once again for helping this project to happen, and I can't wait to show you what we've created!

So when can we expect a release?

[Mehangel]

So when can we expect a release?

After layout is complete, pdf's will be ready. However, similar to the sphere handbooks, there is a time period between pdf and print, because inevitably punctuation, grammatical, and format errors are found in the pdf. With sphere handbooks, this usually translates as a 2-4 week wait inbetween pdf and print copies being available. Spheres of Might however is much larger and may very well remain in pdf form for 1-2 months before being made available in print.

[Hal0Badger]

So can we expect a PDF release this month?

[EldritchWeaver]

According to Adam, at this point half of the book is mostly layouted. So my personal and unconfirmed opinion is that it's more likely to be published next month.

[Hal0Badger]

According to Adam, at this point half of the book is mostly layouted. So my personal and unconfirmed opinion is that it's more likely to be published next month.

That would be really great! I cannot wait to run a SoP&SoM only game, especially with the conversion archetypes. It would be really amazing if we can get our hands on a PDF version.

[stack]

So I finally got around to reading the Troubadour and I quite love it. Is it likely to get something of the bonus feat genre in the full release?

Also you guys should probably include some language stating that Tame animals can't pick up the Beastmastery Sphere and in turn have their own Tame animals, and so on until you run out of animal merchants in town. That way lies madness.

Tame animals taking animals will be fixed in the final, thanks.

[N. Jolly]

I'm still not sure why Striker is unarmed-only, with the possibility to expand it to light one-handed ones. I get the concept it's trying to emulate, but that concept can use all sorts of weapons.

Writer of the striker here, and the reason for that is actually more mechanical, mostly due to not wanting to give too many attacks with a two handed weapon to avoid dealing too much damage. The light/unarmed is to keep the damage more in line with the other classes and the base assumptions of the book. Since it's a send up to the monk, the unarmed is also for flavor, but I didn't want to limit it to just monk weapons since I enjoy more variety there.

[Mehangel]

Writer of the striker here, and the reason for that is actually more mechanical, mostly due to not wanting to give too many attacks with a two handed weapon to avoid dealing too much damage. The light/unarmed is to keep the damage more in line with the other classes and the base assumptions of the book. Since it's a send up to the monk, the unarmed is also for flavor, but I didn't want to limit it to just monk weapons since I enjoy more variety there.

I know that Favored Weapon exists as a striker art, but is it too late to request another striker art that allows monk weapons in general to be used?

[Doc_Maynot]

Going to repeat my concerns about Dimensional Lunge


I have a question regarding the legendary talent Fencing (Dimensional Lunge). If you count as being in all unoccupied squares within 30' for reach and range increment purposes, does that include ones you cannot see due to walls and such? Ones above you that you couldn't actually be in due to lack of flight or similar? Ones on the floor(s) below (Or above) you, or are other wise underground? If yes on the first and last ones, does that grant you awareness of those squares? Awareness of the area around them?

[Morty]

Writer of the striker here, and the reason for that is actually more mechanical, mostly due to not wanting to give too many attacks with a two handed weapon to avoid dealing too much damage. The light/unarmed is to keep the damage more in line with the other classes and the base assumptions of the book. Since it's a send up to the monk, the unarmed is also for flavor, but I didn't want to limit it to just monk weapons since I enjoy more variety there.

That's unfortunate, but understandable. I guess my preferred combat style would require using another class. Probably Conscript.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Am I right in assuming the conversion archetypes will account for SoP conversion archetypes where applicable? In the case of SoP+SoM Magi/Bloodragers, for instance.

[Ssalarn]

Am I right in assuming the conversion archetypes will account for SoP conversion archetypes where applicable? In the case of SoP+SoM Magi/Bloodragers, for instance.

Whenever possible, yes. In some instances we found that it simply wasn't possible to incorporate the SoP archetype with the related SoM archetype, but in those instances we'll try to address the gap in Champions of the Spheres, the gish add-on book, with new archetypes designed to blend both systems.

[Mehangel]

Whenever possible, yes. In some instances we found that it simply wasn't possible to incorporate the SoP archetype with the related SoM archetype, but in those instances we'll try to address the gap in Champions of the Spheres, the gish add-on book, with new archetypes designed to blend both systems.

I think it should also be noted, that in cases where a SoM and SoP conversion archetype aren't compatible, you can always use the SoP archetype and then sacrifice 5, 7, or 9 feats to grant yourself a SoM talent progression.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

Glad that even those edge cases are eventually getting support. Ideally I'd like to be able to just have those archetypes replace the base classes for games I run so not having to require certain characters to lose several feats would be ideal

[RedMop]

Read the whole thread, and I didn't see it.

Alchemy Sphere requires selecting Formula or Toxin. Can I take the sphere again to get the other? If that's mentioned somewhere, where should I look for it in the Playtest Docs?

[Mithril Leaf]

Read the whole thread, and I didn't see it.

Alchemy Sphere requires selecting Formula or Toxin. Can I take the sphere again to get the other? If that's mentioned somewhere, where should I look for it in the Playtest Docs?

Master Chemist in the Alchemy Sphere.

[RedMop]

Master Chemist in the Alchemy Sphere.

Perfect. Are there equivalent things in the other spheres, such as Guardian?

[stack]

Perfect. Are there equivalent things in the other spheres, such as Guardian?

Yes. Any sphere divided into packages has an option to gain the other packages.

[RedMop]

Yes. Any sphere divided into packages has an option to gain the other packages.

Awesome. Thanks.

Next question. Investigator archetype Empiricist's Ceaseless Observation as a Scholar Knack. Thoughts?

[RedMop]

Next question. Investigator archetype Empiricist's Ceaseless Observation as a Scholar Knack. Thoughts?

I'm asking if it would break anything, not if it should be included in the book.


Q: If I brew something up with the alchemy sphere, say Improved Tanglefoot Bag, then gave it to someone without the alchemy sphere, say a monkey familiar, does it still work as an Improved Tanglefoot bag?

Q: Scholar's Knack Animal Training Large: What do I use for calculating the critter's HPs, Familiar or Animal Companion?

[Aipaca]

I may be going mad, but I can't find anywhere that you get the 2 bonus initial talents like a Spherecaster would upon first gaining Combat Training? Can anyone confirm or point me to the right place? Thanks

[EldritchWeaver]

I may be going mad, but I can't find anywhere that you get the 2 bonus initial talents like a Spherecaster would upon first gaining Combat Training? Can anyone confirm or point me to the right place? Thanks

You don't. Instead you might get a martial tradition which contains 4 talents. Might because you need to take your first level in a practitioner class.

[RedMop]

I'm asking if it would break anything, not if it should be included in the book.


Q: If I brew something up with the alchemy sphere, say Improved Tanglefoot Bag, then gave it to someone without the alchemy sphere, say a monkey familiar, does it still work as an Improved Tanglefoot bag?

Q: Scholar's Knack Animal Training Large: What do I use for calculating the critter's HPs, Familiar or Animal Companion?

Bump? Anyone?

[Mehangel]

Q: If I brew something up with the alchemy sphere, say Improved Tanglefoot Bag, then gave it to someone without the alchemy sphere, say a monkey familiar, does it still work as an Improved Tanglefoot bag?

Yes, I believe it does still work as an Improved Tanglefoot Bag; and No, I dont think it will break anything.

[Ssalarn]

Bump? Anyone?


Your improved alchemical items retain all of their benefits even if you give them to someone else. The scholar with Beastmastery and a flock of birds using the Bombard trick is one of our more insane test builds.

For the improved companion, use whichever statistics are most beneficial. So if animal companion hit points will give you more (typically but not always the case), use those.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey, does the Sage's caster level stack with other caster levels as normal, even though it uses Ki instead of Spell Points? Follow up: Can you spend both Spell Points and Ki on the same effect?

[RedMop]

Thanks, Mehangel and Ssalarn!

[Aipaca]

I'm slightly confused, is a two weapon fighter type character still expected to be taking the two weapon fighting feats in order to full attack without missing everything? Or are you just not expected to full attack in general if you are using SoM?

[NomGarret]

Yes, you should spend your feats on the TWF chain if you want to TWF-full attack. Now, you can still do TWFy things with just talents, so the lack of bonus feats (conscript notwithstanding) doesn't hurt so much.

[Ssalarn]

I'm slightly confused, is a two weapon fighter type character still expected to be taking the two weapon fighting feats in order to full attack without missing everything? Or are you just not expected to full attack in general if you are using SoM?

One of the problems we've seen in other systems is that when you allow abilities intended for standard actions to apply to full attacks, it ends up boosting full attacks unnecessarily and acts as straight damage boosting, which full attacks don't need. So the Dual-Wielding sphere is specifically built around a specific type of two-weapon fighting that encourages use of the attack action, which the system is built around. If you want to two-weapon fight on a full attack, you'd spend the normal feats to do so.

[Slavezero]

how much longer till Spheres of might is ready? really wanting to play as i had an awesome idea for a dark knight type character that uses bleeds and vital strikes with a monkey gripped great sword to bring down his enemy's while using a tower shield, sentinel class features and the Berserker and guardian spheres to weather heavy combat

[EldritchWeaver]

I've heard it will be any day now, they're just waiting on some final images and inputting copyedits.

[Zsaber0]

I am of the humble opinion that for the Fighter conversion archetype, the replaced fighter feats should be different. It should replace feats a 1, 4, 8, 12, and 16 instead of 2, 6, 10, 14, 18.

I think it would work better this way. Don't look too deep into the reasonings. In no way do I want to stack a spheres of Might archetype with a Path of War archetype. That's definitely not the reason. Just do what I say because it's 100% the right thing to do.

[Ssalarn]

how much longer till Spheres of might is ready? really wanting to play as i had an awesome idea for a dark knight type character that uses bleeds and vital strikes with a monkey gripped great sword to bring down his enemy's while using a tower shield, sentinel class features and the Berserker and guardian spheres to weather heavy combat

I believe we are literally just waiting on the last couple pieces of art before the .pdf is ready for distribution.


I am of the humble opinion that for the Fighter conversion archetype, the replaced fighter feats should be different. It should replace feats a 1, 4, 8, 12, and 16 instead of 2, 6, 10, 14, 18.

I think it would work better this way. Don't look too deep into the reasonings. In no way do I want to stack a spheres of Might archetype with a Path of War archetype. That's definitely not the reason. Just do what I say because it's 100% the right thing to do.


I know there was a specific reason we chose the feats we did, but I don't recall what it was at this particular moment.

[AlienFromBeyond]

I know there was a specific reason we chose the feats we did, but I don't recall what it was at this particular moment.
So it could stack with SoP archetypes such as War Hero from Battlemage's Handbook, or Impossible Warrior from the Abjurer's Handbook playtest. That it also happens to cause it to conflict with the PoW archetype from DSP is just icing on the cake, getting ahead of silly people who will complain about something being broken or OP because they're mixing content from different publishers.

[exelsisxax]

So it could stack with SoP archetypes such as War Hero from Battlemage's Handbook, or Impossible Warrior from the Abjurer's Handbook playtest. That it also happens to cause it to conflict with the PoW archetype from DSP is just icing on the cake, getting ahead of silly people who will complain about something being broken or OP because they're mixing content from different publishers.

Or silly people that think SoM and PoW are mechanically compatible. PoW is based on NOT using the specific attack action.

[digiman619]

Any idea when the physical copies of Som and the gish book will be ready? Circumstances beyond my control prevented me from backing it, but I want to buy it and have it on my bookshelf as soon as possible.

[EldritchWeaver]

Any idea when the physical copies of Som and the gish book will be ready? Circumstances beyond my control prevented me from backing it, but I want to buy it and have it on my bookshelf as soon as possible.

SoM needs to be published first in PDF form. Then I expect some time during which additional errata will be integrated. Then a print would be possible. So maybe 2 months after publishing.

Gish book may need still some playtesting. Or at least the gish classes should be combined into a single set for playtest purposes. The prodigy is at least in playtest mode. So any print edition is way off.

[NomGarret]

Sage and Troubadour both got a fair chunk of playtesting and revision during the SoM play tests. I haven't heard what else is going in there, but I would still expect it to be at least 6-8 weeks behind the release dates of SoM.

[Ssalarn]

Or silly people that think SoM and PoW are mechanically compatible. PoW is based on NOT using the specific attack action.

It's not impossible to use the two systems together, you'd just need to focus on boost and counter maneuvers while using sphere talents instead of strikes. Damage-wise you'd end up in a pretty similar place since SoM focuses more on chains and utility and doesn't use bonus damage dice as frequently.


Any idea when the physical copies of Som and the gish book will be ready? Circumstances beyond my control prevented me from backing it, but I want to buy it and have it on my bookshelf as soon as possible.

We already have preorders available through Backerkit (https://spheresofmight.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders), and the .pdf for SoM should be available very soon. We're just waiting on a last couple pieces of art to have it all put together.


Sage and Troubadour both got a fair chunk of playtesting and revision during the SoM play tests. I haven't heard what else is going in there, but I would still expect it to be at least 6-8 weeks behind the release dates of SoM.

The Prodigy is also going to be part of Champions of the Spheres (aka "the gish book") and that didn't make it into playtesting until about a month ago, so I expect probably close to a 2 month gap between SoM and CotS, assuming all the CotS art is wrapped on time.

[digiman619]

Random thought: Since many of the SoP handbooks are (or were at one point) named "The <whatever>-mancer's Handbook", what will the eventual SoM handbooks' default name be?

[stack]

Champions of the Spheres will also have a number of archetypes, which I expect to be playtested before release as well.

If individual SoM sphere handbooks are done, I would assume a similar naming scheme, though it hasn't come up yet.

[A.J.Gibson]

I'm kinda hoping that there aren't individual SoM handbooks. Some of the SoP books were hard enough, and SoM spheres don't have the same amount of design space that SoP spheres tends to have. And 'expanded options' book down the road with new material for each sphere would probably work better.

[Mehangel]

I'm kinda hoping that there aren't individual SoM handbooks. Some of the SoP books were hard enough, and SoM spheres don't have the same amount of design space that SoP spheres tends to have. And 'expanded options' book down the road with new material for each sphere would probably work better.

I also agree that having handbooks devoted to each specific Sphere in Spheres of Might wouldn't nearly be as viable as it was for Spheres of Power. I wouldn't mind however seeing handbooks that expanded groups of Spheres based on Martial Traditions and Fighting Styles.

[Ssalarn]

I, personally, see class, archetype, and martial tradition handbooks being a lot more viable. A "General's Field Notes" that adds more Commander options while splashing in some archetypes and Warleader talents that catch the system up to any evolutions in the game. A "Swordsman's Training Guide" that builds on Dueling and Fencing while adding Sentinel options. So on and so forth. Spheres of Might lends itself more to conceptual expansion than sphere by sphere expansion.

[RedMop]

Advancing Carnage
Whenever you make a melee attack using the attack action, you may take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls made that round to make an additional attack against an opponent that is adjacent to the first and also within your reach as a free action. You may continue attacking creatures adjacent to your most recent target as long as you still have a valid target for this ability, but you cannot attack the same creature twice. You can take this talent a second time, allowing you to take a single 5-ft. step as a free action after making any one attack when using this ability. If doing so places a creature within your threatened area, that creature becomes a legal target for your additional attack(s) as long as it meets all the other prerequisites. Associated Feats: Great Cleave, Cleave Through.

Is this meant to exclude the Cleave feat, and thus prevent the following feats from working with Advanced Carnage: Goblin Cleaver, Orc Hewer, Giant Killer, Surprise Follow-Through, Improved Surprise Follow-Through, and Weapon Trick (Two-handed) among others?

Edit: Changed code to quote.

[Ssalarn]

Advancing Carnage
Whenever you make a melee attack using the attack action, you may take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls made that round to make an additional attack against an opponent that is adjacent to the first and also within your reach as a free action. You may continue attacking creatures adjacent to your most recent target as long as you still have a valid target for this ability, but you cannot attack the same creature twice. You can take this talent a second time, allowing you to take a single 5-ft. step as a free action after making any one attack when using this ability. If doing so places a creature within your threatened area, that creature becomes a legal target for your additional attack(s) as long as it meets all the other prerequisites. Associated Feats: Great Cleave, Cleave Through.

Is this meant to exclude the Cleave feat, and thus prevent the following feats from working with Advanced Carnage: Goblin Cleaver, Orc Hewer, Giant Killer, Surprise Follow-Through, Improved Surprise Follow-Through, and Weapon Trick (Two-handed) among others?


Cleave is its own standard action, not an attack action, and would thus be incompatible with any talent that requires an attack action. That would make Advancing Carnage incompatible with most of the feats you listed, though there are something like 4 two-handed weapon tricks and the only one that doesn't mesh is Cleaving Smash.

[RedMop]

Cleave is its own standard action, not an attack action, and would thus be incompatible with any talent that requires an attack action. That would make Advancing Carnage incompatible with most of the feats you listed, though there are something like 4 two-handed weapon tricks and the only one that doesn't mesh is Cleaving Smash.

I'll take that as a yes (it was meant to). Crap. That is unfortunate.

It's the missing associated feat that interferes. That's actually why I asked if it was intended to exclude Cleave even though it includes Great Cleave and Cleaving Through.


Associated Feat: Some spheres and talents overlap the function of existing feats. Such a feat is listed in the talent as an associated feat. Possessing the sphere or talent counts as possessing the feat for the purposes of meeting prerequisites and for abilities that modify the feat’s function (such as mythic version of the feat). Unless noted, talents do not stack with their associated feats. Any time you would gain an associated feat, you may instead choose to gain the sphere or talent it is associated with. You must still meet the prerequisites for a talent gain this way, such as possessing the base sphere.

[Aipaca]

Couple of questions, do we know a release date for SoM yet (it's got to be close right?), and what are the chances of getting a form-fillable PDF character sheet that is designed for Spheres of Power/Might characters?

[RedMop]

Couple of questions, do we know a release date for SoM yet (it's got to be close right?), and what are the chances of getting a form-fillable PDF character sheet that is designed for Spheres of Power/Might characters?


We already have preorders available through Backerkit (https://spheresofmight.backerkit.com/hosted_preorders), and the .pdf for SoM should be available very soon. We're just waiting on a last couple pieces of art to have it all put together.

There you go.

P.S. I want to ask this about 100 times per hour.

[digiman619]

Just popping in to say that I just preordered the soft covers of both SoM and the Gish book. Looking forward to having both on my shelf so I can have future games just be Spherefinder.

[Ssalarn]

There you go.

P.S. I want to ask this about 100 times per hour.

Art is in and the team has reviewed the mostly laid out version of the final .pdf and submitted the errors we caught to Adam, so we're like a hair's breadth away from the finish-line right now.


Just popping in to say that I just preordered the soft covers of both SoM and the Gish book. Looking forward to having both on my shelf so I can have future games just be Spherefinder.

I had a moment the other week where it hit me that our Saturday game hasn't actually used a Paizo book since we restarted our campaign. Our current line-up is an incanter/vizier/amplifier as our main control caster, a commander who acts as the party face and buffer/problem-solver, an armorist tank with some Guardian sphere talents, and a radiant as our healer whose minions are pretty nasty when combo'd up with the commander. We're working our way through Curse of the Crimson Throne now while I wait for City of Seven Seraphs to come out.

[Mithril Leaf]

Art is in and the team has reviewed the mostly laid out version of the final .pdf and submitted the errors we caught to Adam, so we're like a hair's breadth away from the finish-line right now.



I had a moment the other week where it hit me that our Saturday game hasn't actually used a Paizo book since we restarted our campaign. Our current line-up is an incanter/vizier/amplifier as our main control caster, a commander who acts as the party face and buffer/problem-solver, an armorist tank with some Guardian sphere talents, and a radiant as our healer whose minions are pretty nasty when combo'd up with the commander. We're working our way through Curse of the Crimson Throne now while I wait for City of Seven Seraphs to come out.

Ah, that's a disservice, Paizo has released plenty of interesting and decent feats! Plus even a few cool magic items.

[Ssalarn]

Ah, that's a disservice, Paizo has released plenty of interesting and decent feats! Plus even a few cool magic items.


I don't have any problem with Paizo at all (quite the contrary), I've just got so many books and options available at this point that it's really easy for us to be playing Pathfinder without actually using any of their materials. I've got pretty much every book they've published, hardcover and softcover, but it's pretty unusual for us to use more than 5 or 6 books at a time. With SoM, SoP, and AM classes (as well a playtest character for Co7S), no one really needed to go delving elsewhere.

[Doc_Maynot]

I don't have any problem with Paizo at all (quite the contrary), I've just got so many books and options available at this point that it's really easy for us to be playing Pathfinder without actually using any of their materials. I've got pretty much every book they've published, hardcover and softcover, but it's pretty unusual for us to use more than 5 or 6 books at a time. With SoM, SoP, and AM classes (as well a playtest character for Co7S), no one really needed to go delving elsewhere.

Actually in the same boat. Other than like, a level of Monk of the Empty Hand and Catch off Guard for one of my characters... I've just been using the equipment out of non-So(P/M)

Also, FINISH LINE HYPE! :smallsmile:

[Ualaa]

Our group is all, 'Spheres of Power' and the associated handbooks, as far as casting goes. And then Path of War or Ultimate Psionics for the martial types. Three of the five players (plus myself) have given me money for the Might hardcover pledges, so we'll have four copies of that book in our gaming room when it arrives.

There's nothing wrong with the Paizo options, and we have at least a copy of every book Paizo has published, but we're not actively playing the Paizo classes. Well, we are in the sense that we dip one level into monk for an unarmored combatant who is otherwise entirely Path of War or we are using (Sphere) archetypes for many of the Paizo caster types.

The current group is:
Dwarf Shifter
Half-Elf Monk/Stalker/Dragon Fury
Half-Orc Aegis/Stalker/Dragon Fury
Dwarf Incanter
Half-Elf Aegis/Soulknife/Stalker
Human Fey Adept/(Sp)Wizard

The group is pretty much going with Spheres of Power is the default magic system (aside from Ultimate Psionics classes), and is there is a sphere archetype for a caster type taking the archetype is mandatory. If there isn't a sphere version of a casting class, then that class isn't available any more.

[ElFi]

I haven't gotten a chance to read through all of the spheres in detail, but what I've read so far is all pretty cool. The fact that Spheres of Might sticks more to mundane combat as opposed to the more supernatural combat styles of Path of War is a double-edged sword for me- on one hand, I like how the Spheres are clearly designed not to resemble or function like magic, but on the other hand, it left me craving some of the more over-the-top nonsense one can pull off in Path of War, like walking on air or ricocheting arrows off of enemies.

Some specific questions/comments:

RAW, it looks to me like the Sentinel's Second Wind ability can be used to recover martial focus even when above half health. Was that intentional?
Is there any concern that, between being able to substitute their level for BAB and getting three talents for a single scholar's knack, the Scholar might outclass some other classes at what their actual specialties are? I haven't run the math on this, but it seems to me that they could easily eclipse the Commander as a Warleader with proper talent allocation.
This might just be me, but the Technician's description is kind of a mess. It's overlong and badly in need of organization, especially in regards to insights, which aren't explained very well and are kinda haphazardly strewed through the text. Maybe give it its own doc? It takes up over half of Classes 2 all by itself.


Overall though, very nice! Keep up the good work, guys!

[Milo v3]

I haven't gotten a chance to read through all of the spheres in detail, but what I've read so far is all pretty cool. The fact that Spheres of Might sticks more to mundane combat as opposed to the more supernatural combat styles of Path of War is a double-edged sword for me- on one hand, I like how the Spheres are clearly designed not to resemble or function like magic, but on the other hand, it left me craving some of the more over-the-top nonsense one can pull off in Path of War, like walking on air or ricocheting arrows off of enemies.
Have you given Legendary Talents a look? That's where the over the top powers are.

[digiman619]

Out of curiousity, how long after the PDF version is done will the physical copies ship out?

[RedMop]

Out of curiousity, how long after the PDF version is done will the physical copies ship out?


SoM needs to be published first in PDF form. Then I expect some time during which additional errata will be integrated. Then a print would be possible. So maybe 2 months after publishing.

Gish book may need still some playtesting. Or at least the gish classes should be combined into a single set for playtest purposes. The prodigy is at least in playtest mode. So any print edition is way off.

There you go.

[Lord Raziere]

Hm. Hm.

I do like Spheres of Power, and I like Path of War, and I do like that there are some things that Spheres of Might seems to be doing that Path of War does not.

Hm.

So far, I could see potential in using Spheres of Might in a gestalt game to maybe round out a Path of War character, there are some spheres that PoW does not cover like all the Scoundrel sphere stuff. yes I know about the Legendary Talents, they are included in this.

I could definitely see Spheres of Might working on some level ground with Spheres of Power though. I think. I'm not the best analyzer, admittedly. but I guess to answer that i must ask: what does Spheres of Might do that a normal fighter or rogue doesn't?

for one thing, it has more variety. These classes feel like a good range of what these kinds of characters should be able to do outside of PoW kind of stuff. we have Blacksmiths, Scholars, Commanders, Technicians, Troubadours, in addition to the more combat related classes that are focused on those, and even then there are variations between Armiger, Conscript, Sentinel and Striker. this is the true strength of this, the variety of archetypes you seem to be covering, where PoW while I like, is weak in that it covers less variety for a better focus in comparison.

So I don't know how strong it is, I can tell it is a step up simply for putting thought into how varied these concepts can be, how much abilities they can have and just being detailed about it, whereas the normal fighter and rogue classes they always felt vague. the fact that you include Legendary Talents on top of this, thus giving even more flexibility to this, is good as well, since it provides some guideline for people to create their own crazy stunts if they want that from Spheres of Might. I'd personally take a PoW class for the crazy stunts and combat power, gestalt it with one of the non-combat focused Spheres of Might clases here for out of combat variety and I think that would turn out pretty well.

So I don't know if I'm right, but something is telling me that Spheres of Might is about the same level as Spheres of Power, maybe not exactly, but I can see it working is what I want to point out. though to be honest that might be more Spheres of Power being nowhere near as powerful as normal wizard than anything else. overall, I think this is good and I can see using it for some things.

[Milo v3]

The biggest thing that PoW has that Spheres of Might doesn't seem like it'd be very capable of doing is having supernatural fighting styles. Simply casting a sphere-casting spell at the same time as using an attack doesn't really seem as interesting as the supernatural initiator disciplines.

[digiman619]

There you go.

Thanks, I really ought to have checked earlier in the thread.

[N. Jolly]

I haven't gotten a chance to read through all of the spheres in detail, but what I've read so far is all pretty cool. The fact that Spheres of Might sticks more to mundane combat as opposed to the more supernatural combat styles of Path of War is a double-edged sword for me- on one hand, I like how the Spheres are clearly designed not to resemble or function like magic, but on the other hand, it left me craving some of the more over-the-top nonsense one can pull off in Path of War, like walking on air or ricocheting arrows off of enemies.

Some specific questions/comments:

RAW, it looks to me like the Sentinel's Second Wind ability can be used to recover martial focus even when above half health. Was that intentional?
Is there any concern that, between being able to substitute their level for BAB and getting three talents for a single scholar's knack, the Scholar might outclass some other classes at what their actual specialties are? I haven't run the math on this, but it seems to me that they could easily eclipse the Commander as a Warleader with proper talent allocation.
This might just be me, but the Technician's description is kind of a mess. It's overlong and badly in need of organization, especially in regards to insights, which aren't explained very well and are kinda haphazardly strewed through the text. Maybe give it its own doc? It takes up over half of Classes 2 all by itself.


Overall though, very nice! Keep up the good work, guys!

I can only answer for the sentinel question, but yeah, that was intentional. If you want to burn a swift and a reserve point to get back your focus, more power to you!

Super glad to see this release, I'm gonna be doing a dev post about it once it's out on Paizo.

[EldritchWeaver]

Spheres of Might has been released.