Class and Level Geekery IV (some [spoiler]s)

[Wrecan]

Welcome to the latest incarnation of the Class and Level Geekery thread! Here, we are discussing what the possible stats are for each of the six OOTS members. Below is my personal estimate of the characters' stats. I will update this post as the discussion continues and as subsequent strips reveal more information about OOTS. When I have to cite to a post where justification is given, I do so with a hyperlinked asterisk

Please note that we all know that Rich isn't necessarily being careful about the rules. Funny always trumps rules. Thus, there will always be some dispute as to some of the stats as some jokes are used as evidence as abilities and other strips are used as evidence of funny.

We also discuss the stats of other characters in OOTS, such as Xykon, the Linear Guild, Miko and others. I only ask that we not discuss the stats of characters that are from other stories, movies, comic strips and so on. Thanks and welcome!


Be sure to read the FAQ*

:roy:Roy Greenhilt
Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0490.html), Human Male (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html) Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0285.html) 12
Attributes (39 pt buy min):
Str ≥20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html) (from magic item or level boost*[/sup])
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ≥16 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight*)
Int 14-18 (“very good"*, but V's Int is "higher"*)
Wis ≥14 (“very good"*)
Cha ≥12 (“decent*)
Feats (13): Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0102.html), Weapon Focus (greatsword), Weapon Specialization (greatsword) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0064.html), Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0162.html)...
Skills (≥60): Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), Ride 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html)... No Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0139.html) or Sense Motive.
Abilities: Favored class (any)
Items: Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) (medium (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html)*), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html), Boots (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html), greatsword +5 (with other unspecified bonuses) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0297.html), oil of shillelagh (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), potion of delay poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), Bag of Tricks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html)...

:belkar:Belkar Bitterleaf
Chaotic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html) Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0489.html), Halfling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0021.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0140.html) Ranger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html) ≥11*/Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0132.html) ≥1* (character level ≥13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0515.html))
Attributes (19 pt buy min):
Str ≥14 ("jump... exceeded movement..." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html)*)
Dex ≥15 (to use Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html))
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10
Wis ≤9 ("I have an ... ability score penalty" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0475.html) in Profession skill checks)
Cha ≤10 (V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (10): Craft Disturbing Mental Image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0249.html), EnduranceB, Greater Two-Weapon FightingB, Improved Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0325.html), Improved Two-Weapon FightingB, TrackB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0022.html), Power Attack, Two-Weapon FightingB, Two-Weapon Pounce (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html)...
Skills (89): Balance ≥5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html), Climb (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0230.html), Craft (Trapmaking) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html), Hide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0468.html) (“a good Hide skill”) (+4), Intimidate (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0450.html) (sufficient to intimidate cowardly eye of fear and flame), Jump (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Listen 0 (+2), Move Silently (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0270.html) (“High”) (+2), Profession (gourmet chef) 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html), Search 0, Sense Motive 0, Speak languageB (halfling), Spot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0119.html) 0, Survival (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0213.html) 0.
Abilities: +1 saves, +1 thrown weapons, +2 v fear, Animal companion, Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html), Fast movement, Favored class (rogue), Favored enemy x3 (probably humanoid (reptilian), humanoid (human) and one other), Rage, Small size, Swift tracker, Wild empathy, Woodland stride
Items: Chef's Hat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Cloak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0107.html), 3 or more small magical daggers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html), red chalk (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), lead sheet (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0281.html), Mama Bitterleaf's Secret +2 Circumstance Bonus Ingredient (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0476.html), Mr. Scruffy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0535.html), Ring of Jumpng +20 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), stilts, Sapphire guard disguise (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0294.html), string (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0379.html)...

:durkon:Durkon Thundershield
Lawful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html) Good, Dwarven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0076.html) Male (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0079.html) Cleric (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0007.html) ≥13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0556.html)
Attributes (12 pt buy min):
Str ≥14 (carries V while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0507.html))
Dex <10 (in a Dragon article, says he has a Dex penalty)
Con ~12 (no evidence, dwarf)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ≥17 (to use Control Weather scroll (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0352.html))
Cha ≤10 ("low Charisma modifier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0200.html)" and V includes him in those w/out any Cha (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0312.html))
Feats (5): Extra Turning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0016.html) (probable, though not definite)...
Skills (≥31): Heal ≥1, Knowledge (Religion) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0052.html) ≥1 (but not much greater), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Speak language (dwarven)... (No Listen)
Abilities: +1 v orcs and goblinoids (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), +2 v spells and poison, +4 dodge AC v giants (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0219.html), +2 to Appraise and Craft stone and metal, bless beer*, clerical spells (with homebrew domains), darkvision, dwarf movement, favored class - fighter, stability (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0001.html), stonecunning, turn undead (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0016.html), weapon familiarity (dwarven waraxe, urgrosh)
Items: Amulet of Natural Armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), flask, full plate armor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0025.html), holy symbol (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0073.html), heirloom shield, heirloom warhammer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0237.html), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0016.html), religious vestments (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0501.html), Scroll of Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html), belt pouch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html)...

:elan:Elan
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html) Human Male Bard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0050.html) 13 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html)/Dashing Swordsman (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0390.html) ≥1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0392.html)
Attributes (16 pt buy min):
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ≥14 (weapon finesse, tumble)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ≤9 (V says can't "manage ... cantrips" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0127.html); Giant says "Int penalty"*)
Wis ≤9 (Roy says he doesn't even have a "smidgen" of Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0080.html))
Cha ≥20 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) (to gain the 5th level spell slot required to have 5th level bardic spells at 13th level)
Feats (6): Dodge, Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0156.html), Weapon Finesse...
Skills (≥80): Diplomacy, Hide (wished he "had put more ranks in Hide") (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html), Listen, Move Silently ≤1 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0090.html), Perform (Sing) ≥6 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html), Perform (Stringed Instruments) ≥6 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html), Perform (wind instruments) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0198.html), Ridecc≥2 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Speak Language ≤4(less than Haley's Intelligence Bonus), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0026.html)...
Abilities: bardic music (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0034.html), bardic lore (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0018.html), charismatic strike (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0390.html), countersong, fascinate, favored class (any), glass damage immunity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), inspire competence (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0004.html), inspire courage +2, inspire greatness, song of freedom, suggestion
Items: Belt of charisma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), dashing outfit (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0388.html), +3 keen rapier (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0392.html), lute (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0471.html), Banjo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0073.html); no armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0594.html).
Spells (per day ≥ 3 5 4 4 3 1; known 6 4 4 4 4 2): Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0156.html), Disguise Self (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0387.html), Greater Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Major Image (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html), Mass Cure Light Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Mending (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0400.html), Neutralize Poison (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0085.html), Silent Image (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Summon Plot Exposition (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0013.html).

:haley:Haley Starshine
Chaotic Good (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0393.html), Human Female (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html) Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0008.html) ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html)
Attributes (26 pt buy min):
Str 11-15 (high enough to carry Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0470.html), but must drag Roy (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0483.html))
Dex 20-21 ("modifier of +5"*)
Con ≥14 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight*)
Int ≥12 (received bonus languages)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (6+2): Dodge, Improved Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), Manyshot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html), Martial Weapon Proficiency (longbow) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html), Point Blank Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html), Precise Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Ranged Pin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Ranged Sunder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0511.html), Rapid Shot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html).
Skills (≥159): Appraise (high), Bluff 16 (maxed ranks) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0412.html), Disable Device, Forgery, Hide ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0311.html), Knowledge (Arcane) (probable), Open Lock ≥15 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Search, Sense Motive ≥2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0171.html), Tumble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0108.html), Use Rope ≥8 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0069.html)...
Abilities: Evasion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0019.html), Favored class (any), Improved uncanny dodge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html), Sneak attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0018.html) +8d6, 2 Special abilities (both are feats), Trapfinding, Trap sense +5, Uncanny dodge
Items: Magic leather armor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), dyed Boots of Speed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0675.html), 8 Bags of Holding (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html), +5 bow of icy air freshness (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0615.html), quivers of green arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0029.html) (inc'g silver and cold iron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0062.html)), masterworked lockpicks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0029.html), rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0477.html), Bedroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0573.html), at least 200,000 gp in cash (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html)...

:vaarsuvius:Vaarsuvius
Non-evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html) alignment, Elven (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0030.html) Ambiguously Gendered Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0009.html) 14 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)
Attributes (12 pt buy min):
Str ≤9 ("I have a Strength penalty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0245.html)")
Dex 10-11 (“no real attack bonus” on rays*)
Con ≤12 (consistent with Giant's description of Miko fight*)
Int 23, 19 unmodified (based on spells cast and limits thereof (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html))
Wis 10-12 ("moderate wisdom"*)
Cha 6-9 (can return as a ghost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html) with "poor charisma"*)
Feats (9): AlertnessB (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html), Empower Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Martial Weapon ProficiencyB (composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, longsword, rapier, shortbow and shortsword), Maximiz Spell, Quicken Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html), Scribe ScrollB... Not Silent Spell* or Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0161.html)
Skills (97): Concentrate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0041.html)≤15, Craft (Alchemy), Knowledge (Arcane), Listen (+2), Ride 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0141.html), Spot (+2), Search 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0030.html) (+2), Speak language (elven), Spellcraft...
Abilities: +2 v enchantment, Barred school (Conjuration (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0340.html) and Necromancy), Specialized school (Evocation), Favored class (wizard), Immune to sleep, Low-light vision, Summon familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html)...
Items: Headband of Intellect +4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html) (based on Intelligence calculations), Ring of Wizardry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0130.html) (affects level ≥3 spells (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html)), raven familiar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0003.html), robes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0186.html), many (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0173.html) spellbooks, ink, paper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0306.html), two small gemstones (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0123.html), some item that increases Intelligence by at least 4*, Finding Plot Holes for Dummies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), nine books of unknown title (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0623.html), jar of diamond dust (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), bauble (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html), raven-sized sombrero, fake beard and mustache (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0679.html). No potions or scrolls (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0452.html)...
Spells (per day -- 4+1 6+1 6+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 2+1): Banishment (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html), Bugsby's Grasping Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0104.html), Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0106.html), Charm Monster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0335.html), Cone of Cold (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0041.html), Crushing Despair (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0127.html), Detect Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0116.html), Dimensional Anchor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Disintegrate (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0186.html), Dispel Magic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0005.html), Explosive Runes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0092.html), Feather Fall (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0240.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Fire Trap (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html), Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html), Grasping Hand (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0397.html), Gust of Wind (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html), Haste (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0200.html), Hold Portal (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0178.html), Identify (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0009.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0157.html), discount Invisibility Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0088.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0020.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Mass Bear's Endurance (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html). Mass Bull's Strength (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html), Mass Enlarge Person (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0427.html), Owl's Wisdom (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0058.html), Power Word Blind (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0306.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0323.html), Prismatic Spray (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0240.html), Scorching Ray (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), See Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html), Sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0630.html), Sleep (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0065.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0178.html), Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0504.html), Vaarsuvius' Greater Animal Messenger (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0563.html), Vampiric Touch (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/../comics/oots0049.html), Veil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html)...

[Wrecan]

Frequently Asked Questions
Q. Where did you get this idea?
A. The first incarnation of this thread was started by runolfr in the old version of the message boards. Everybody is always talking about this stuff and this thread is intended to be a central repository for all discussions of the stats of OOTS and the various NPCs (though I'm only keeping track of OOTS stats). You can read the prior version of this thread here:
Class and Level Geekery
Class and Level Geekery II
Class and Level Geekery III.

Q. Doesn't Comic X demonstrate Vaarsuvius' gender?
A. No. No! NO! Please read the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10). Better yet, I'll quote it verbatim:

Q: Is Vaarsuvius male or female?

A: I will never reveal the truth! Bwahaha! Keep in mind that while certain other characters might refer to V as being male or female, that simply reveals their perception, not the actual reality of the situation.

Q. When do the OOTS PCs level up?
A. OOTS is 10th level some time before episode 1, 11th level at episode 12, 12th level at 124, 13th level by 397 (Elan's 13th level was in his new prestige class), and Belkar hit 14th level in 515 (although if he failed his save against the wight's level drain, he'd still be 13th level). Haley was 15th level some time before 615. Vaarsuvius is definitively 14th by 627 (which is the definitive indication that OOTS ceased leveling up at the same rate since Roy's death). (Durkon may also be 15th level.) Elan raised a level in 647, and has 13 levels of bard and one or more levels of Dashing Swordsman. If Roy is raised from the dead, he will likely be reduced to 12th level.

Q. Why don't you list character ages?
A. A few reasons. First, age is only relevant in D&D if one changes Age Categories. As far as we can tell, everybody is in the "Adult" Age category. Second, the Giant has not been very, how shall we say, consistent, on character ages. Since there's no mechanical (read geeky) benefit/penalty to any specific age, unless someone changes age category in a strip, we're not tracking it.

Q. In Comic 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0002.html), Elan praises his "six new skill points". Since human bards get 7+Int skill points per level, doesn't this mean that he has an Int penalty of -1 and an Intelligence of 8 or 9?
A. No. According to the Giant, he's referring to the the new rule for bards and skill points, which is 6/level (not including racial and ability bonuses), and that's 7+Int skill points per level, not per edition conversion. Elan hadn't just gained a level.

Q. Does Comic 17 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html) mean that Belkar has a sonic sunder attack?
A. No. it would ruin the joke if Belkar was referring to some sonic attack, as opposed to making fun of the flimsiness of the standard rapier.

Q. In Comic 28 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html), didn't Haley claim to have a Charisma of 18?
A. She was talking about Elan.

Q. In Comic 31 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html), Roy is more appetizing than Vaarsuvius to the illithid. Doesn't this mean Roy should have a higher Intelligence than Vaarsuvius?
A. No. The illithid apparently measures the aggregate of all the mental Abilities (Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma). V has a high Intelligence, but average Wisdom and low Charisma. Roy needs to have a higher aggregate score.

Q. In Comic 34 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html), Roy says Elan's bardic bonus is +1, meaning he is no greater than 8th level. Doesn't this make him two levels lower than the rest of the party?
A. Since everybody gains a level at the same time (more or less) in Comic 124 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0124.html), it seems everybody is the same level. Otherwise, they'd increase in level in staggered bits. So Comic 124 trumps Comic 34. And since we know the party level was 11 at the time, Elan's bardic bonus is higher than +1, notwithstanding what Roy says.

Q. In Comic 38 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0038.html), Durkon tells Roy he's paralyzed because he was poisoned 17 times with Strength poison. Doesn't this mean Roy's Stength is 17?
A. No. First poison inflicts variable Ability Damage. Being poisoned 17 times would mean he lost dozens of Strengh points. Second, your Strength can never be reduced below 0, no matter how much you're poisoned. The number 17 was chosen for its funny. It cannot indicate Roy's Strength.

Q. Doesn't Comic 49 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) indicate Vaarsuvius has Time Stop, Meteor Swarm and Wish in the spellbook?
A. No. Vaarsuvius was not even looking at the spellbook. It was likely an attempt to suggest the most outrageous spells for Zz'ditri's variant Fly spell. The evidence, at best, is inconclusive.

Q. In Comic 58 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html), Belkar uses a scroll of Cure Serious Wounds, which requires him to have a Wisdom of 14. Since Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom on him (which boosts your Wisdom by 4), he must have a Wisdom of 10. Why do you have him at less?
A. That comic was trumped by the more recent Comic 475 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0475.html) in which Belkar admits to having an Ability score penalty to Profession checks. Since Wisdom is the Ability that modified Profession, Belkar cannot have a Wisdom above 9. So we are ignoring Comic 58 as one of those times where "funny trumps rules."

Q. Wait a minute. Cure Serious Wounds is only a third-level spell on the clerical spell list. And since it was Durkon's scroll and Durkon is a cleric, wouldn't that mean Belkar only needed a 13 Wisdom, which means a 9 Wisdom before Vaarsuvius cast Owl's Wisdom?
A. No. Scrolls have no class listed. You use the level of the spell on the caster's spell list. Cure Serious Wounds is a 4th level Ranger spell.

Q. In Comic 73 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0073.html), Thor acts pretty chaotically and he's listed as Chaotic Good in Deities and Demigods. Since clerics cannot be more than one step removed from their deity, how can Durkon be lawful?
A. The Thor in OOTS is not the Thor in Deities and Demigods. Thor is more likely Neutral Good with lots of Lawful and Chaotic characteristics. Either way, Durkon, is clearly Lawful Good.

Q. Where's Elan's coffee maker (Comic 81 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html)), espresto box (Comic 84 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html)), squirrel, paddleball game, lantern, roller skate or jam (Comic 206 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0206.html))?
A. From Comic 471 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0471.html), Elan appears to have lost all of his equipment when Nale temporarily switched places with him. So only the equipment he has been seen with since his escape from prison in Comic 387 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) will be listed.

Q. From Comic 127 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html), You use Vaarsuvius' statement that Elan can't use cantrips as evidence that Elan has under a 10 Intelligence. But Elan casts spells all the time.
A. In D&D, wizards use Intelligence to cast spells and require Intelligence 10 to cast cantrips. Bards use Charisma. Vaarsuvius is saying Elan doesn't have the Intelligence needed to cast cantrips as a Wizard.

Q. In Comic 170 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0170.html), Durkon gets a golden tankard. Why isn't that on his possessions?
A. It's too big for Durkon to carry, so we assume it was left behind. If it shows up again, it will be placed on the possessions list.

Q. In Comic 188 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html), doesn't Vaarsuvius demonstrate the skill Speak Language (draconic)?
A. Not necessarily. Vaarsuvius may also have ranks in Decipher Script (for which evidence has been found in one of the Dragon Magazine strips).

Q. In Comic 219 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0219.html), Durkon is fighting ogres. Why is this strip referenced as his bonus for fighting giants?
A. In D&D 3.5, ogres are of the "giant type", and dwarves (like Durkon) get a dodge bonus when fighting creatures of the giant type.

Q. In Comic 245 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0245.html), Vaarsuvius and Haley only manage to save one bag of treasure. Why do you still list Haley as having eight bags of holding?
A. The bag they rescued is not a bag of holding, but a regular sack of treasure. We know this because in Comic 130 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) we see what a bag of holding looks like, and it doesn't look like the sack of treasure in Comic 245. Haley keeps her bags of holding on her person. It wouldn't have needed rescuing.

Q. In Comic 249 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0249.html), Belkar talks about Roy's "heavy armor". Why is he listed with only Medium armor?
A. In order for Roy carrying Durkon (as he does in Comic 5 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0005.html)) to make sense, Roy would need to be wearing nothing heavier than Medium armor. Otherwise, Roy runs no faster than Durkon. Thus, we assume Belkar is speaking descriptively about Roy's armor, in accordance with his Craft Disturbing Mental Images Feat.

Q. In Comic 446 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html), Vaarsuvius seems to cast chain lightning, no?
A. No. That's just an artistic rendition of a standard lightning bolt.

Q. Doesn't Comic 599 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0599.html) demonstrate that Vaarsuvius can cast Overland Flight?
A. Quite probably. But until we get confirmation that Vaarsuvius flew farther than a 13-14th level wizard can fly using the Fly spell, we cannot state it with certainty.

Q. Doesn't Comic 616 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0616.html) demonstrate that Belkar has Improved Trip and Improved Disarm? Crystal never got an AoO on him, which should mean he has those feats.
A. Possibly. However, AoOs are not always shown in the comic. Crystal may have forgotten to use it, or may have missed and the Giant didn't bother to show it to us.

Q. Doesn't Comic 624 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0624.html) demonstrate that Vaarsuvius has Bugsby's Flicking Finger and Bugsby's Expressive Single Digit?
A. No. Those are just humorous uses of the Bugsby's Grasping Hand spell.

[Wrecan]

Reserved for Visual Aids

[RMS Oceanic]

I'd like to get this thread underway by reiterating my belief that #599 shows that Vaarsuvius has learned Overland Flight. Even if you want to assume (s)he has reached level 15, regular Fly would only give h** less than two miles of distance covered, and since (s)he's not landing on the island, h** destination must lie further on.

Also, thinking like Vaarsuvius, why should you have to keep re-casting fly to go wherever you want to go when those spell slots could be kept for self defence?

[Mc. Lovin']

See I think that if the Giant wanted her to have overland flight *that* would have been the spell she casted when we first saw she had fly. Therefore I think that either she casted it again, has that previously mentioned thired edition homeruled version or, my personal opinion, the Giant is being leniant on rules for better storytelling.

[lord_khaine]

i would like to throw some more copper pieces after the overland flight theory.

[RMS Oceanic]

See I think that if the Giant wanted her to have overland flight *that* would have been the spell she casted when we first saw she had fly. Therefore I think that either she casted it again, has that previously mentioned thired edition homeruled version or, my personal opinion, the Giant is being leniant on rules for better storytelling.

Fly's good for ship-to-shore and other short distance travel, and it's also faster (60 foot per round compared to O.F.'s 40 foot), which is why Vaarsuvius chose to cast it: (s)he could get back to the ship (and h** research) more quickly.

[Enlong]

See I think that if the Giant wanted her to have overland flight *that* would have been the spell she casted when we first saw she had fly. Therefore I think that either she casted it again, has that previously mentioned thired edition homeruled version or, my personal opinion, the Giant is being leniant on rules for better storytelling.

Or (s)he could have both, and (s)he used Fly the first time because (s)he only needed to transport Durkon and hirself to the other boat. Why expend a 5th level spell when a 3rd level spell works perfectly in that situation? Especially when you're a Wizard.
Also, in 599, (s)he has obviously cast a flight spell of some kind before talking to Durkon; which makes Fly even less feasible, because every round counts when you only have 1 min/level for long-distance flight.

[Kaytara]

I agree. Fly and Overland Flight are too useful not to grab when you have the opportunity, and a wizard departing for a trip over the sea just screams 'I have Overland Flight'. Or 'Oversea Flight', anyway. :D

[Shadic]

I still think that we should include that Katos. We know that they're 6th level fighters.

And you know, all the other characters. Why isn't it Wrecan that does that, anyways?

Also, update your signature. Your link is old. :smalltongue:

[Wrecan]

And you know, all the other characters. Why isn't it Wrecan that does that, anyways?

I'm lazy. If you like, you can do it, or wait for Chrismith to port it over.

[Mc. Lovin']

Fly's good for ship-to-shore and other short distance travel, and it's also faster (60 foot per round compared to O.F.'s 40 foot), which is why Vaarsuvius chose to cast it: (s)he could get back to the ship (and h** research) more quickly.


Or (s)he could have both, and (s)he used Fly the first time because (s)he only needed to transport Durkon and hirself to the other boat. Why expend a 5th level spell when a 3rd level spell works perfectly in that situation? Especially when you're a Wizard.
Also, in 599, (s)he has obviously cast a flight spell of some kind before talking to Durkon; which makes Fly even less feasible, because every round counts when you only have 1 min/level for long-distance flight.

Well you've convinced me (although speaking is a free action, so the chat wouldn't count for anything)

_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/

I'd like to say that Dashing Swordsman has a "Dramatic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) instinct (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html)" class feature.

EDIT:
Another - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html

[Chrismith]

Other characters

Stats for characters who aren't the Order of the Stick.

Team Evil

:redcloak: Redcloak
Lawful Evil, Goblin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html)Male, Cleric 15+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html)
Attributes:
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~12 (no evidence, racial)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 20+ (save DC for L7 spell is >21 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html))
Cha 12+ (repeated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html) use (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html) of (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html) Rebuke Undead)
Feats (5+): Extend Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), Craft Wonderous Item (helped Xykon create his phylactery (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html))
Skills (36+): Diplomacy (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html); +4 racial bonus on Move Silently and Ride checks.
Abilities: Bolster/Rebuke/Command Undead, two Domains (Destruction and Law (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html)), darkvision 60'.
Items: Unholy symbol (also Xykon’s phylactery), Crimson Mantle, spyglass (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0423.html).

:xykon: Xykon
Chaotic Evil, Human Male Lich, Sorcerer 21+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html)
Attributes:
Str 14+ (Able to carry two goblins and an elf while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html))
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con n/a (undead)
Int ~13 (likely started at 8 or 9, gets +5 from being venerable and becoming a lich)
Wis ~13 (likely started at 8 or 9, gets +5 from being venerable and becoming a lich)
Cha 28+ (based on Start of Darkness events)
Feats (7+): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0459.html), Epic Spellcasting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), some sort of crafting feat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0543.html)
Skills (46+): Bluff (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0106.html); +8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks, Spellcraft 24+, Knowledge (Arcana) 24+ (Prereqs for Epic Spellcasting feat)
Abilities: Fear aura, paralyzing touch, turn resistance, damage reduction, immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks.
Items: Widescreen crystal ball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html), Teevo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0415.html), crown (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0434.html) that radiates evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0202.html), headband (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0484.html) likely belonging to Dorukan (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0196.html).
SoD spoiler:
Also has (or had) a gem (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html) containing the souls of Dorukan and Lirian.
Spells Known: Animate Dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Cloister (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html), Cloudkill (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Energy Drain (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Finger of Death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html), Ghostform (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0370.html), Greater Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html), Invisibility (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0037.html), Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Meteor Swarm (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html), Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Overland Flight (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html),
Ray of Frost (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html), Shatter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0112.html), Soul Bind (http://www.giantitp.com/StartOfDarkness.html), Symbol of Pain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0110.html), Symbol of Insanity (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0192.html), Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0376.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Tsukiko.png Tsukiko
Evil, Human Female, Wizard (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html) 3+ / Cleric 3+ / Mystic Theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) 6+
(minimum CL 9 for both divine and arcane spells)
Attributes:
Str 10+ (no evidence)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no evidence)
Int 15+ (minimum to cast Teleport as a wizard)
Wis 15+ (minimum to cast Flame Strike as a cleric)
Cha 10+ (no evidence, assumed not to be a Sorcerer or Favored Soul)
Feats (6+): Scribe scroll, Quicken Spell
Skills (42+): Knowledge (arcana) 6+, Knowledge (religion) 6+ (Requirements for Mystic Theurge)
Abilities: Unknown.
Items: Unknown.
Spells Known: Fly, Lightning Bolt, Shout (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), Teleport (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html), Dominate Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0516.html), Fireball, Invisibility, Electric Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html) Fire Orb, Lesser Acid Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0519.html), Cold Orb (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html)

The Linear Guild

:nale: Nale
Lawful Evil (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), Human Male, Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 1+ - Rogue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 1+ - Sorcerer (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) 6+ (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha 15+ (Minimum to cast sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html))
Feats (8): Unknown.
Skills (49+): Bluff
Abilities: Sneak attack +1d6 (or more), trapfinding
Items: Longsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html), +3 Longsword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0347.html) (currently held by Cliffport PD), chain shirt (probably masterwork to minimize spell failure chances), cure potions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html).
Known Spells: Charm Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html), Expeditious Retreat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html), Suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html), Prestidigitation (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html). Nale claims (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) to specialize in Enchantment spells.

:sabine: Sabine
Evil Succubus, Outsider, Rogue 1+ (Stated in No Cure for the Paladin Blues)
Attributes:
Str =18 (carried Nale and Thog while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html))
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (5): Unknown
Skills (120+): Unknown
Abilities: Energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), shape-shifting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), DR against either cold iron or silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) (or both? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html)), plane shift 1/day
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html)Items: Sabine carried a crossbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html) in the Dungeon of Dorukan, but hasn't been seen with it lately.

:thog: Thog
Chaotic Evil, Male Half-Orc, Fighter 2 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html) - Barbarian (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0064.html) 10
Attributes:
Str 14+ (able to carry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3735368&postcount=425) Hilgya (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) while flying, likely higher (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0396.html))
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int 8 or lower ("Int was his dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0044.html).")
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Feats (7): 2 Fighter bonus feats
Skills (56+): Unknown
Abilities: Fast movement, rage 3/day, improved uncanny dodge, trap sense +3, DR 2/-, Darkvision, Orc Blood.
Items: +3 Great Axe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0347.html) (currently held by Cliffport PD), medium armor, Celine Dion album (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0258.html), Leprechaun suit (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html).

Part-time Members

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/Leeky.png Leeky Windstaff
Neutral Evil, Male Gnome, Druid 14+ (cast Firestorm and Heal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0359.html))
Attributes:
Str ~8 (no evidence, racial)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~12 (no evidence, racial)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis 17+ (Minimum to cast Fire Storm)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (5): Leadership (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html)
Skills (66+): Unknown
Abilities: Low-Light Vision; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against illusions; +1 DC for all saving throws against illusion spells cast; +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against kobolds and goblinoids; +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type; +2 racial bonus on Listen checks; +2 racial bonus on Craft (alchemy) checks; spell-Like abilities (CL 1; save DC 10 + Cha modifier + spell level): 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute), dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation; wild shape (4/day, large/tiny/plant); venom immunity; resist nature's lure; trackless step; woodland stride; wild empathy; nature sense; animal companion.
Items: Staff (properties unknown, broken by Durkon's thunderclap)

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/1308/pompeypb9.jpg Pompey
Chaotic Evil, Male Half-Elf, Wizard (Conjurer) 4+
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int 12+ (Minimum to cast Summon Monster II (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html))
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (3): Scribe scroll, possibly Still Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html) and/or Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html)
Skills (55+): Unknown
Abilities: Immune to sleep spells and similar magical effects; +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects; Low-Light Vision; +1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks; +2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
Items: Unknown
Spells Known: Animate Rope (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0342.html), Summon Monster II, at least 5 touch-range buff spells (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0350.html) -- lowest-level possibilities are Mage Armor, Protection from Good, Protection from Law, Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/4913/yokyokbg4.jpg Yokyok (Deceased)

Possibly Lawful Good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0357.html), Male Kobold, Unknown Class (may include Duellist PrC)
Items: Rapier
This is probably all we'll ever know about Yokyok, since he was killed by a swarm of greedy adventurers before really demonstrating his abilities and his head made into a chip bowl by Belkar.

Hilgya
Female Dwarf, Cleric 7+
Hilgya is known to worship Loki, and one of her domains is Fire. The other is likely chaos.
Wis 14+ (Minimum to cast Restoration (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0074.html))
Items: Horned helment, armor, shield, holy symbol of Loki


http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/drizzle.png Zz'dtri
Male Drow, Wizard 11+
Transmuter (Cast six Fly spells in one day), barred schools (two of: Conjuration, Enchantment, Illusion, Necromancy)
Int 16+ (Minimum to cast Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html))
Feats: possibly Two-Weapon Fighting
Weapons: Pair of scimitars
Spells: Flesh to Stone (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), Fly (3.0 version) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html), Shield (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html), Wall of Ice (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html). Unspecified attack spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html) characterized by green lightning.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/9580/yikyikpy8.jpg Yikyik (Deceased)

Male Kobold, Ranger
Feats: Combat Reflexes



The Sapphire Guard

:miko: Miko Miyazaki (deceased)

Lawful Good, Human Female, Monk 2 / Fallen Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0407.html) 12-14 (based on number of attacks per round)
Attributes:
Str 13+ (to wield Katana one-handed)
Dex 17+ (required for Improved 2-Weapon Fighting)
Con 12+ (no clear evidence, but has high damage capacity)
Int 10+ (not stupid, but no demonstration of high Int)
Wis 11+ (Minimum to cast Cure Light Wounds (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=291639#post291639))
Cha 14+ (effective Divine Grace and substantial Laying On Hands)
Feats (6-7): Two-Weapon Fighting, Stunning Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0200.html), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword/Katana), Power Attack (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html), Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html), Track (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html)
Skills (30+): Ride, Survival +1, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely), Knowledge (the Planes) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0373.html).
Abilities: Evasion, flurry of blows, Improved Unarmed Strike, (Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows). Unavailable Paladin abilities spoilered-out.

Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Windstriker), remove disease 2/week, smite evil 3/day, spells (1/1).

Items: Magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html), Katana, Wakizashi, known to carry Cure potions.


http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a311/estelindis/hinjo.gif Hinjo
Lawful Good, Human Male, Paladin 11+ (appears to have 3 attacks/round (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html))
Attributes:
Str 10+ (no evidence)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no clear evidence, though likely high)
Int 10+ (not stupid, but no demonstration of high Int)
Wis 12+ (has a good will save (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html), otherwise unknown)
Cha 12+ (Laying On Hands heals wounds)
Feats (4+): Unknown.
Skills (28+): Ride, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely).
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Dire Wolf "Argent"), remove disease, smite evil , spells (?).
Items: Cold-iron katana, silver katana, magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/O-Chul.pngO-Chul
Lawful Good, Human Male, Fighter/Paladin. Level unknown, but likely 140+ hit points (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4100390&amp;postcount=126). Was lower level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) prior to captivity.
Attributes:
Str ~10 (no evidence)
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~23-27 (Has a Con in the mid-20's (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html))
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (He admits that Cha is his dump stat (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html))
Feats (4+): Unknown.
Skills (39+): Bluff 0 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html), Swim (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0542.html),
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (?), remove disease, smite evil, spells (?).
Items: None (currently in POW status).

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i294/trytoguess/lien.png Lien
Lawful Good, Human Female, Paladin 6+ (has a large shark mount (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0479.html)); lower level than Hinjo (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html)
Attributes:
Str 13+ (Prequisite for cleave)
Dex 10+ (no evidence)
Con 10+ (no evidence)
Int 10+ (no evidence)
Wis 10+ (no evidence)
Cha 12+ (Laying On Hands heals wounds)
Feats (4+): Weapon Focus (Longspear), Power Attack, Cleave (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0473.html)
Skills (27+): Ride, Handle Animal (not demonstrated, but likely).
Abilities: Aura of good, detect evil, divine grace, lay on hands, aura of courage, divine health, turn undead, special mount (Large Shark "Razor"), smite evil , spells (?).
Items: Longspear, magic boots, cloak and armor (http://www.giantitp.com/WarAndXPs.html).

Other Characters
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png Celia
Female Sylph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), 6+ HD (can cast Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html))
Cha 13+
Abilities: Casts sorcerer spells as a caster of a level equal to her HD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html), can detect magic auras (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)
Spells known: Alter Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/julia.png Julia Greenhilt
True Neutral (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0343.html) Human Female, Wizard 3 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0485.html)
Str ~10 (No evidence)
Dex ~10 (No evidence)
Con ~10 (No evidence)
Int 15+ (Minimum to cast sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) from a scroll)
Wis ~10 (No evidence)
Cha ~10 (No evidence)
Feats (3): Unknown
Skills (24+): Unknown
Spells known: Magic Missile (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0354.html)

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/9168/samrg8.png Samantha (Deceased)

Evil, Human Female, Sorcerer 12+ (Can cast at least 3 level 6 spells per day)
Str ~10 (No evidence)
Dex ~10 (No evidence)
Con ~10 (No evidence)
Int ~10 (No evidence)
Wis ~10 (No evidence)
Cha 20-21 (Sorcerer with high save DCs)
Feats (5): Maximize Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), possibly Spell Focus (Evocation) and Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) (her level 3 save DCs are "too high (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)" for Haley); not Still Spell or Silent Spell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0169.html).
Skills (42+): Unknown
Spells known: Chain Lightning (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fireball (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Fly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0160.html), Hold Person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0166.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Magic Missle (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html), Protection From Arrows (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0168.html)

[Chrismith]

I'm lazy. If you like, you can do it, or wait for Chrismith to port it over.

Heck, I'm lazy, too. I'm not opposed to including extras like Daigo and Kazumi, I just don't really have the time to go back through the comics and gather all of the info. If anyone wants to put together some stat blocks for those characters or any others (along with comic references for each stat/ability/whatever), feel free to post them or PM them to me and I'll add them to the list.

And if anyone wanted to take over maintenance of the secondary characters, I wouldn't argue -- as I said, I don't have all that much free time these days.

[Kurald Galain]

The MITD really doesn't have a "high int", it behaves entirely too stupid for that all of the time. Its intelligence is quite possibly not as abysmal as its wisdom score, but it nevertheless certainly isn't "high".

[TheNovak]

Did you look at the linked comic? Go (the game he and O'Chul were likely discussing) is a very complex game; the fact that the MitD is rapidly learning it (and presumably getting good at it) demonstrates a high Int score, even if it's not an ability he often gets to use.

[Kurald Galain]

Did you look at the linked comic?

Obviously I did. That does not at all demonstrate a "high" int score. It could also mean O-Chul is just being nice to, you know, his only friend in the world atm, or that people with low intelligence can nevertheless be good at some particular game. "High intelligence" encompasses way, way more than being able to learn one game - it also means not being a complete dumbass all the time. The MITD has not proven being actually able to learn Go, and it has proven being UNable to learn e.g. about gates, scrabble, about multiple undead, and so on and so forth.

(edit) at best, it suggests a somewhat below average intelligence, like Elan or Belkar. "High" intelligence means Roy, or Vaarsuvius, or Shojo.

[TheNovak]

Well, I've seen it theorized that :mitd: is under some sort of enchantment that prevents it from seeing the Gates, possibly as a result of some sort of warding spell built into them. (Maybe one of his cousins was working for one of the Order of the Scribble's villains, and they thought it would be prudent to keep his whole race from being able to see them.) As for the rest, especially with Xykon's "brothers," I think they could indicate an extremely low Wisdom, rather than Intelligence. Once :mitd: latches onto an idea ("Xykon has three brothers and can cast cleric spells!"), he finds it very difficult to alter it. That could also be pointed to as an example of a low Intelligence, though; I think it's fair to say that, like the alignment system, the difference between Intelligence, Wisdom, and even Charisma has infinite room for debate.

Now, moving on to a completely subjective argument, I call upon the invisible force which controls the OotS world, and from which Elan draws his greatest insights: Story. And just as I don't believe Xykon's soul bind gem was destroyed along with Dorukan's Gate because there would've been more Story attached, I don't think O-Chul would've mentioned :mitd:'s talent for Go if it wasn't implying something, specifically, a higher Intelligence than we've seen so far.

Again, completely subjective, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.

[Talic]

Knowledge of undead = Knowledge (Religion)
Knowledge of gates = Knowledge (Arcana)

So, by this, we can conclude that MitS does not invest heavily in knowledge of magic and beast skills.

His childlike mentality and naivety point to a low wisdom score, yes. Whether it be difficulty in distinguishing friends from foes, inattentiveness and short attention span, or what-have-you, it's hard to dispute this one.

But there's not much concrete evidence either way for MitS's Int.

Elan, on the other hand, has demonstrated numerous direct misconceptions about basic things (Armor check penalties on the hide skill, anyone?). That he speaks with authority and knowledge in one area (plot/drama) shows only that he has a knowledge skill, and is indicative of a lone knowledge skill, amidst the sea of idiocy.

[Kurald Galain]

Again, completely subjective, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
If it's completely subjective, it doesn't belong in this thread.



But there's not much concrete evidence either way for MitS's Int.
Precisely. That's why the list shouldn't point out that it "might" be "high", when it "might" just as equally be low or average.

Belkar "might" have a constitution of 23. Or he "might" have a stash of poison that we haven't seen yet. But we don't list those in this thread because there's no concrete evidence.

[pjackson]

I still think Hinjo has the Swift Call feat (from Complete Champion) since he was able to call Argent, mount him, and attack during one jump in 588 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0588.html)

[Zerg Cookie]

There's a mistake in Durkon's abilities:
He does not have an agility onus when fighting Giants, the creatures he fought in +219 are Ogres

[Greg]

There's a mistake in Durkon's abilities:
He does not have an agility onus when fighting Giants, the creatures he fought in +219 are Ogres
...which have the giant type. He's a dwarf, so he gets an agility bonus when fighting creatures of the giant type.

[Chrismith]

[Discussion about MitD's possible stats]

I've thought about it, and I've decided to remove the MitD from the list of characters.

Why? Well, first, I agree with those who were arguing that the Go scene might imply a higher-than-previously-thought intelligence for the MitD. The Giant said in the newest book that there are enough clues sprinkled throughout the comic for someone to deduce what the Monster in the Darkness really is, and if that scene with O-chul isn't a clue then I don't know what is. (Actually, is there some sort of game-playing idiot-savant monster in any of the books? Maybe I just figured it out!)

The thing is, hunting down these clues is a decidedly different game than nailing down all of the other characters' stats (as evidenced by the fact that the MitD's stat block was just a bulleted list of things we can guess). Really, until the MitD is unveiled once and for all, anything we list will just be speculation, and I'm sure there are a hundred other threads for that. We're in the business of gathering verifiable information about these characters, and there's just nothing verifiable about the Monster in the Darkness right now.

[Mc. Lovin']

I'd like to say that Dashing Swordsman has a "Dramatic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) instinct (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html)" class feature.

EDIT:
Another - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0461.html

Anyone think about this?

[Grey Watcher]

Anyone think about this?

Eh, that (and the previously cited examples) could just be his bardic talent for meta-story knowledge. Much like his dramatic escape from the dungeon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0119.html). Granted, that didn't involve him guessing at something he didn't already know, but the only thing that seems (and even that's not explicit) directly linked to his training as a Dashing Swordsman was when he used figured out where to find Haley and Nale....

[Shortgeek]

Vaarsuvius is at LEAST 14th level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html); Prismatic Spray is a 7th-level spell.

However, back in Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), he was 13th-level. This is interesting to note, but I'm sure the sea trolls gave some XP.

You have him listed as "at least 13th", so I thought that would be helpful.

[Greg]

Vaarsuvius is at LEAST 14th level (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0591.html); Prismatic Spray is a 7th-level spell.

Which you get at level 13 as a wizard. Although it seems likely that he is level 14 with 22 INT.

[Shortgeek]

Which you get at level 13 as a wizard. Although it seems likely that he is level 14 with 22 INT.

Oh, wow, I'm dumb. I was looking at the sorcerer tables. I'm sorry.

Why is that likely? I'm a bit slow. Is it the overlord flight thing?

[baerdith]

Oh, wow, I'm dumb. I was looking at the sorcerer tables. I'm sorry.

Why is that likely? I'm a bit slow. Is it the overlord flight thing?

It's likely due to the argued point on V not trancing, If the side of V not trancing means s/he is operating on "one day's spells" then s/he has gone over what a 13th wizard could cast. The only way s/he could cast what s/he has cast so far without recharging is with 14th level and 22 Int. (and that is my position.)

Also Wrecan has Belkar at 14th level. He ASSUMES that Belkar made his Fort save for retaining his level gain, but he refuses to assume that Haley has leveled. Irregardless of His XP penalty, and his inability to kill anything within the city limits (neither of which affects Haley) so WHY is Haley still 13th level?

[Wrecan]

He ASSUMES that Belkar made his Fort save for retaining his level gain, but he refuses to assume that Haley has leveled. Irregardless of His XP penalty, and his inability to kill anything within the city limits (neither of which affects Haley) so WHY is Haley still 13th level?

She's not. She's 13th or greater level.

And I assume Belkar saved because it's virtually impossible for Belkar not to save.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The Halfling Rogue in today's (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html) comic is shown Tumbling in panel 8. The listed uses for Tumble are reducing damage from a fall, avoiding AoOs, and moving through an opponent's space. There is as far as I can tell no reason for any of those uses. Normally bows don't threaten(though Spells, Feats, and Items can change this), he's not falling, and he should be able to move normally without needing to pass through her square. It could just be a metagame Rule-of-Cool, but...

Also, are there any skill tricks or feats that represent Haley better today than the flat Aid Another bonus?

[Shadic]

Celia knows some sort of fog spell, as seen in today's comic.

[Heads_or_Tails]

So in todays comic (604) Haley's Improved Uncanny Dodge stops a sneak attack from an 8th level rogue, for those with greater knowledge of the rules than I, does that indicate anything meaningful for her current level?

[Needle]

I'm not so good at skills, but it seems that it doesn't affect Haley supposed level at all


Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.

This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.

If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.

The only thing we can get for today's comic is that she does not have three attacks per round as she had to use Rapid Shot to kill 3 rogues, meaning she's 13+ level but <15 level.

[awibs]

However, back in Azure City (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0427.html), he was 13th-level. This is interesting to note, but I'm sure the sea trolls gave some XP.


He (default "he" of the grammatically but not politically English language) must have been leveled or been very close to doing so, because he explicitly stated (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0507.html) that he didn't mind getting his work interrupted all the time for encounters. He's too rational (and bitchy) of a character to be so positive about having his (highly prioritized) work interrupted on an offhand hope of leveling.

[ShellBullet]

I think it's safe to add short sword to Hanks inventory. As well Yor having at least 13 strength due the requirements of Power attack.

[RMS Oceanic]

Like when we added a link when Belkar demonstrated his use of Evasion, we can use 604 as proof that Haley has Improved Uncanny Dodge.

[TerrickTerran]

Well we saw it officially although it was kinda obvious.:smallbiggrin: We didn't learn anything much, just a bit here and there.

[RMS Oceanic]

Well we saw it officially although it was kinda obvious.:smallbiggrin: We didn't learn anything much, just a bit here and there.

It's just standard policy. We listed Belkar as having evasion before he demonstrated it against the Eye of Fear and Flame, and then added the link as conclusive proof. We deemed him to be Chaotic Evil before Roy's interview to get into the afterlife, and linked as proof. I'm just making sure the policy is upheld in this case.

[Wrecan]

Also Wrecan has Belkar at 14th level. He ASSUMES that Belkar made his Fort save for retaining his level gain, but he refuses to assume that Haley has leveled.
Thinking about it, Baerdith, I have changed my position. We can't assume Belkar made his Fort save against the wight (although it would require a natural 1 to fail). I've changed Belkar's status to reflect that.



Like when we added a link when Belkar demonstrated his use of Evasion, we can use 604 as proof that Haley has Improved Uncanny Dodge.

Done!

[Eldaran]

Other characters

http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h87/osiris32/celiasmiley.png Celia
Female Sylph (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0053.html), 6+ HD (can cast Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html))
Cha 13+
Abilities: Casts sorcerer spells as a caster of a level equal to her HD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html), can detect magic auras (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0531.html)
Spells known: Alter Self (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html), Lightning Bolt (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)


Actually, unless this Sylph is different from the Monster Manual 2 version, she can cast spells at HD+4. She also has a ridiculously fast flying speed of 90, showing that she could easily outrun the running rogues as she did in today's comic.

Here's the relevant stats on a Sylph:

Small Outsider (Air)
Hit Dice: 3d8–3 (10 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft., fly 90 ft. (good)
AC: 12 (+1 size, +1 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 11
Attacks: Unarmed strike +3 melee
Damage: Unarmed strike 1d2–1 subdual
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spells
Special Qualities: Improved invisibility, outsider traits,
spells, SR 14, summon elemental
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +4, Will +6
Abilities: Str 8, Dex 13, Con 8, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 17
Skills: Animal Empathy +9, Concentration +5, Escape
Artist +7, Hide +11, Move Silently +7
Feats: Empower Spell
Climate/Terrain: Temperate and warm mountains
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: Standard (gems and magic items only)
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: 4–9 HD (Small)

Sylphs seldom engage in physical combat and
usually do not carry any weapons. They depend
on their spells and special abilities to protect
themselves. When threatened, they often
summon elementals to defend them.
Spells: A sylph can cast arcane spells
as a sorcerer. Caster level = sylph’s Hit
Dice + 4; spells known 7/5/3/2;
spells/day 6/7/7/5; save DC 13 +
spell level.

Improved Invisibility (Sp): At will, a sylph can use improved
invisibility (self only).
Outsider Traits: A sylph has darkvision (60-foot range).
It cannot be raised or resurrected.
Summon Elemental (Sp): Once per day, a sylph can use
summon monster VI (caster level 12th) to summon a Large air,
earth, fire, or water elemental.


Of course, there are a number of abilities there that she hasn't used, especially the at will improved invisibility, you'd think that would be especially handy given their current situation.

[baerdith]

Thinking about it, Baerdith, I have changed my position. We can't assume Belkar made his Fort save against the wight (although it would require a natural 1 to fail). I've changed Belkar's status to reflect that.

TY.

One thing about Haley and the three Rogues... She One shotted the three of them. Assuming they were all over 8th level (the FLUNKIE was 8th level) What sort of damage can Haley have done to do that? Say the Rogues were around 10th level with a 14 Con that would be 12-80 hps with an average of 50. Barring magic Haley would have maxed at 66 points with three Criticals and all 6s and 8s on the arrow rolls, seems unlikely.

I can see her getting a one shot on the wizard(?) without much trouble, but the other two? This would seem a 'perfect storm' scenario, they rolled exceptionlly bad on hp she rolled exceptionally high on crit and sa...


She also has a ridiculously fast flying speed of 90, showing that she could easily outrun the running rogues as she did in today's comic.
Maybe her speed dropped when she drank that permanent enlarge person potion? :smallwink:

[Charmy]

Forgiveness if this question has been asked already.. but how did Haley sneak attack enemies within fog? If it were any of the fogs that were mentioned, then they provide Concealment for any enemies within 5 feet. Furthermore, you cannot perform a Sneak Attack on an enemy that has concealment.

I understand that funny can trump rules.. but this comic also contains a joke about Improved Uncanny Dodge protecting Haley from a sneak attack. This makes this bending of the rules particularly glaring, in my opinion.

Its been suggested to me that this might not actually be a fog at all and is actually an illusion of some sort which Haley is disbelieving. This seems kinda convoluted though.. :smallannoyed:

Is there some feat or ability which Haley has which allows her to sneak attack through concealment perhaps? I hope it gets explained next comic...

[RMS Oceanic]

Forgiveness if this question has been asked already.. but how did Haley sneak attack enemies within fog? If it were any of the fogs that were mentioned, then they provide Concealment for any enemies within 5 feet. Furthermore, you cannot perform a Sneak Attack on an enemy that has concealment.

I understand that funny can trump rules.. but this comic also contains a joke about Improved Uncanny Dodge protecting Haley from a sneak attack. This makes this bending of the rules particularly glaring, in my opinion.

Its been suggested to me that this might not actually be a fog at all and is actually an illusion of some sort which Haley is disbelieving. This seems kinda convoluted though.. :smallannoyed:

Is there some feat or ability which Haley has which allows her to sneak attack through concealment perhaps? I hope it gets explained next comic...

As noted in this post:


Haley thus has Improved Precise Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedPreciseShot). That would allow her to sneak attack a foe in partial concealment, as it ignores all miss chances short of Total Concealment.

The flunky still can't sneak attack a concealed target in melee, but then again, he didn't, did he?

However, there's a problem with this. IPS requires a Base Attack Bonus of +11, which would mean Haley is level 15. Not a problem in itself, as that would also explain how she could afford the feats, but then why would she need rapidshot to take out the three guys, when she could have just full attacked to reduce the risk of missing?

The only thing I can think of is that Rich has come up with some homebrew spell that doesn't affect concealment when adjacent to someone.

[hamishspence]

yes- given party were in level 12-13 range at Battle of Azure City and its been three months since then, with Haley leading La Resistance most of those three months, I wouldn't be surprised if she's gained a couple of levels.

[RMS Oceanic]

yes- given party were in level 12-13 range at Battle of Azure City and its been three months since then, with Haley leading La Resistance most of those three months, I wouldn't be surprised if she's gained a couple of levels.

But how does it explain Hank's Flunky's sneak attack? If you look at the panels carefully, she did take the damage, before she invoked Improved Uncanny Dodge and negated most of it. The only thing I can think of is some sort of house rule that Blind Fight or some such effect negates concealment's effects on sneak attack. Which it really should, come to think of it.

[Mando Knight]

She took damage, yes... from the normal 1d6+Str (+ feats) from the short sword attack itself. The Sneak Attack bonus damage wasn't the only damage he intended to deal that round.

[Kurald Galain]

I can see her getting a one shot on the wizard(?) without much trouble, but the other two? This would seem a 'perfect storm' scenario, they rolled exceptionlly bad on hp she rolled exceptionally high on crit and sa...
It follows that your assumptions (that they are around 10th level with 14 con) are incorrect.


Forgiveness if this question has been asked already.. but how did Haley sneak attack enemies within fog?
Occam would suggest that she is shooting out of the fog, to creatures that aren't in the fog. In the first frame, the fog is actually seen to be dense down the stairs, and the rogues also say that. The place where they are standing isn't actually covered in fog (as you can still see the rogues perfectly well), it just has a few errant cloudlets.

Haley is hidden in the fog, and steps out while attacking. That's a sneak attack. The rogue in frame 5 isn't hidden, but is SA'ing because he's flanking her.

[baerdith]

It follows that your assumptions (that they are around 10th level with 14 con) are incorrect.



Well that assumption is based on the flunkie being lower level that the 'bosses'. Flunkie = 8, so bosses = 9+

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Well that assumption is based on the flunkie being lower level that the 'bosses'. Flunkie = 8, so bosses = 9+What makes then bosses? I thought the only boss was the Halfling.
Occam would suggest that she is shooting out of the fog, to creatures that aren't in the fog. In the first frame, the fog is actually seen to be dense down the stairs, and the rogues also say that. The place where they are standing isn't actually covered in fog (as you can still see the rogues perfectly well), it just has a few errant cloudlets.

Haley is hidden in the fog, and steps out while attacking. That's a sneak attack. The rogue in frame 5 isn't hidden, but is SA'ing because he's flanking her.That seems reasonable, and maintains the <15th level that the Rapid Shot indicates.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

As noted in this post:



However, there's a problem with this. IPS requires a Base Attack Bonus of +11, which would mean Haley is level 15. Not a problem in itself, as that would also explain how she could afford the feats, but then why would she need rapidshot to take out the three guys, when she could have just full attacked to reduce the risk of missing?

The only thing I can think of is that Rich has come up with some homebrew spell that doesn't affect concealment when adjacent to someone.

Or Haley could have a Seeking bow.

Or replace Ranged Sunder with Improved Precise Shot. (Panel 11 of 511 being interpreted as DM fiat.) Otherwise she's running out of feats even at level 15, no? (Manyshot, Martial Weapon Proficiency longbow, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Ranged Pin, Ranged Sunder, Rapid Shot)

Or Haley has at least 1 level of Fighter somewhere.

Also, what is the link for her Dodge feat?

[Kurald Galain]

Also, what is the link for her Dodge feat?

It's in the Dragon comics. Elan also has it.

[hamishspence]

Dragon comics might only be semi-canonical, as Belkar points out himself.

[HamsterOfTheGod]

It's in the Dragon comics. Elan also has it.

Well then either we have to accept impossible but funny/dramatic feats (which is fine by me) or Haley has to have at least 1 level of Fighter somewhere to account for the extra feat, no?


Dragon comics might only be semi-canonical, as Belkar points out himself.
Ot that.

Thanks both.

[Kurald Galain]

Ot that.

Or she has Flaw (Aphasia). Or she's the DM's girlfriend. Or she has a magical item that provides one of those feats.

[LuisDantas]

IPS requires a Base Attack Bonus of +11, which would mean Haley is level 15. Not a problem in itself, as that would also explain how she could afford the feats, but then why would she need rapidshot to take out the three guys, when she could have just full attacked to reduce the risk of missing?

I'm not very good with D&D mechanics, but couldn't she have wanted to spare an action or two in case they were needed? Also, doesn't full attack hinder defense?

[hamishspence]

Or moving?

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not very good with D&D mechanics, but couldn't she have wanted to spare an action or two in case they were needed?
You can't spare actions in D&D; you can only delay ("ready") your present action.


Also, doesn't full attack hinder defense?
No, it prevents you from moving.

[Eldaran]

I'm not very good with D&D mechanics, but couldn't she have wanted to spare an action or two in case they were needed? Also, doesn't full attack hinder defense?

Full attack doesn't effect defense, but, regardless, rapid shot only works on a full attack anyway, it just gives you one extra attack.

[Dreamthiev]

:sabine: Sabine
Evil, possibly a Succubus or Erinyes, Outsider, Rogue 1+ (Stated in No Cure for the Paladin Blues)
Attributes:
Str =18 (carried Nale and Thog while flying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html))
Dex ~10 (no evidence)
Con ~10 (no evidence)
Int ~10 (no evidence)
Wis ~10 (no evidence)
Cha ~10 (no evidence)
Feats (5): Unknown
Skills (120+): Unknown
Abilities: Energy drain (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html), shape-shifting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0142.html), DR against either cold iron or silver (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0062.html) (or both? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0255.html)), plane shift 1/day
(http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0380.html)Items: Sabine carried a crossbow (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0043.html) in the Dungeon of Dorukan, but hasn't been seen with it lately.


Well, she's not an Erinyes. Erinyes don't get damage reduction to silver or iron, their only DR is 5/cold. Also, Erinyes don't have an energy drain attack.

Succubus is more likely. They get DR 10/cold iron or good and have an energy drain.

One problem with both is that neither one gets Plane Shift. They both get Greater Teleport, usuable at will, but this doesn't allow for interplanar travel. In second edition they got Plane Shift instead of Greater Teleport, so this looks like something that was house-ruled in, like Zz'dtri's Fly spell. However, in 2nd edition the Plane Shift ability was usuable at will, just like the 3.5 version of the succubus can use Greater Teleport.

Since Sabine can only use the ability once per day, she might be using the monster advancement rules from Savage Species. If so, she would be an 8th or 9th level succubus, because 10th level would give her additional uses of Greater Teleport (or, Plane Shift if that's the house rule).

[Chrismith]

Well, she's not an Erinyes. Erinyes don't get damage reduction to silver or iron, their only DR is 5/cold. Also, Erinyes don't have an energy drain attack.

Succubus is more likely. They get DR 10/cold iron or good and have an energy drain.

One problem with both is that neither one gets Plane Shift. They both get Greater Teleport, usuable at will, but this doesn't allow for interplanar travel. In second edition they got Plane Shift instead of Greater Teleport, so this looks like something that was house-ruled in, like Zz'dtri's Fly spell. However, in 2nd edition the Plane Shift ability was usuable at will, just like the 3.5 version of the succubus can use Greater Teleport.

Since Sabine can only use the ability once per day, she might be using the monster advancement rules from Savage Species. If so, she would be an 8th or 9th level succubus, because 10th level would give her additional uses of Greater Teleport (or, Plane Shift if that's the house rule).

Whatever she is, she's clearly homebrewed to some extent, so neither Succubus or Erinyes can be ruled out. The whole "demon or devil" thing is a running joke, and Succubus and Erinyes are the candidates from each type that she most closely resembles, so those are the two possibilities that are listed. Note that these are possibilities -- she might be something else entirely, or we might never find out.

[Yasha]

I would venture that Sabine is a succubus as well. The Demon or Devil issue is elegantly wrapped up with the whole 3.5 to 4e Succubus.

In 3.5 D&D a Succubus is a Demon, as always.
In 4e D&D a Succubus is a Devil instead.

Just a thought...of course, I have no idea when the whole issue of her damage reduction coming up first was posted as a comic, so I might be retconning a bit.

[Dreamthiev]

Whatever she is, she's clearly homebrewed to some extent, so neither Succubus or Erinyes can be ruled out. The whole "demon or devil" thing is a running joke, and Succubus and Erinyes are the candidates from each type that she most closely resembles, so those are the two possibilities that are listed. Note that these are possibilities -- she might be something else entirely, or we might never find out.

I disagree. I think Erinyes can be ruled out. It's missing multiple powers that Sabine has displayed. The Erinyes lacks Energy Drain, DR to iron or silver, and has no shape-shifting ability.

On the other hand, a succubus has Energy Drain, DR 10/iron, and the ability to change shape.

Putting in Plane Shift as a power is a relatively minor change, and one that would have to be done to either Erinyes or Succubus. There's really nothing about Sabine's abilities that says Erinyes. I think the running joke about the demon vs devil has more to do with Haley not having Knowledge: The Planes as a skill.

[Kish]

I think the running joke about the demon vs devil has more to do with Haley not having Knowledge: The Planes as a skill.
Whenever someone says this, I feel obligated to point out that Nale also doesn't know whether Sabine is vulnerable to cold iron or silver (or believes she's vulnerable to both). Whatever the joke is, it's not about Haley's ignorance.

[Nerdanel]

Sabine's strength score (18+) is in the line with an Erinyes. The standard succubus only has STR 13 and would not have been able to carry Nale and Thog while flying.

I think Sabine is probably a demon/devil halfbreed.

[Dreamthiev]

13 is for the average creature strength. Sabine has PC-class levels, and is a major recurring villian, so her stats would be rolled or calculated using the same method as the PC's or hand-picked by the DM. 13 actually means that succubi are stronger than your average human, and so Sabine would get a +2 str adjustment when calculating her strength.

[Lupy]

My attempt to update Roy to 4e. Help and (constructive!) criticism are much welcome! :smallsmile:

:roy: Roy Greenhilt (currently deceased):

Lawful Good, Male Human Great Weapon Fighter 13
Paragon Path: Unknown, Kensei and Swordmaster seem too fancy, but Pit Fighter too dirty... Hm...
Strength ≥20 (Magic items, recommended ability for build)
Dexterity ~13 (No evidence, likely for feats)
Constitution ≥17 (The Giant's post on the fight with Miko, feat requirements)
Int 14-18 (“very good”, but V's Int is "higher")
Wis ≥14 (“very good”)
Cha ≥12 (“decent”)
Feats (20): Fighter Starter feats, Blade Opportunist, Human Perseverance, Powerful Charge, Powerful Attack, Weapon Focus: Heavy Blade, Skill Focus: Athletics, Skill Focus: Endurance, Armor Specialization: Plate, Heavy Blade Opportunity
Skills: 13 Athletics, 11 Endurance, 7 Intimidate or 9 Heal
Powers: Coming Soon.
Items: In Haley's bag of Holding


EDIT: I hope to do the other Order members soon, one a night if all goes well, but I really need some help for Elan!

[Chronos]

Putting in Plane Shift as a power is a relatively minor change, and one that would have to be done to either Erinyes or Succubus.Perhaps, but changing the alignment of an aligned-subtype outsider is a major change.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Perhaps, but changing the alignment of an aligned-subtype outsider is a major change.Do we really have any proof of her alignment? Based on actions, I'd have pegged her at NE, which would make either one need the change, but is there proof anywhere?

[lord_khaine]

Do we really have any proof of her alignment? Based on actions, I'd have pegged her at NE, which would make either one need the change, but is there proof anywhere?

well actual hard proof is very hard for aligment, and i would say you could find evidence for he being either of the 3 evil alignments if you wantet to.

[Dreamthiev]

Perhaps, but changing the alignment of an aligned-subtype outsider is a major change.

Actually, no. The alignment subtypes in the case of outsiders means that they're native to a plane with that alignment. It's possible to have that subtype and be a different alignment, or for your alignment to change away from the subtype's alignment.

For example, a creature native to the Abyss would have the [Chaotic] and [Evil] subtypes. But that creature can be, or become, any alignment. If, for example, they become Neutral Good, they would still be effected by spells and such that targeted the [Evil] and [Chaotic] subtypes. So, a Detect Evil spell would show them as evil.

But I don't really know that any alignment is supposed to be changed. I don't remember anything that states Sabine's alignment definitively.

[DragoonKain]

If it's been listed, I haven't seen it yet, but I'm almost positive that Durkon's Thor's Might is the result of a combination of the Strength domain's power and Enlarge Person.. Shouldn't that be put into his stats, since it's not normally part of a cleric's spell list?

[MReav]

If it's been listed, I haven't seen it yet, but I'm almost positive that Durkon's Thor's Might is the result of a combination of the Strength domain's power and Enlarge Person.. Shouldn't that be put into his stats, since it's not normally part of a cleric's spell list?

Pretty sure Thor's might is simply Righteous Might. Better spell, but since Durkon never uses it for more than a few rounds (which given its duration vs Enlarge Person's 1 minute/level), I'd say it would be a better fit.

[Dreamthiev]

If it's been listed, I haven't seen it yet, but I'm almost positive that Durkon's Thor's Might is the result of a combination of the Strength domain's power and Enlarge Person.. Shouldn't that be put into his stats, since it's not normally part of a cleric's spell list?

I always figured that Thor's Might was Righteous Might just with the name personalized to the deity in question.

Edit: Oops, ninja'd :smalltongue:


Righteous Might
TransmutationLevel: Clr 5, Strength 5
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level (D)


This spell causes you to grow, doubling your height and multiplying your weight by 8. This increase changes your size category to the next larger one, and you gain a +4 size bonus to Strength and a +2 size bonus to Constitution. You gain a +2 enhancement bonus to your natural armor. You gain damage reduction 3/evil (if you normally channel positive energy) or damage reduction 3/good (if you normally channel negative energy). At 12th level this damage reduction becomes 6/evil or 6/good, and at 15th level it becomes 9/evil or 9/good (the maximum). Your size modifier for AC and attacks changes as appropriate to your new size category. This spell doesn’t change your speed. Determine space and reach as appropriate to your new size.

If insufficient room is available for the desired growth, you attain the maximum possible size and may make a Strength check (using your increased Strength) to burst any enclosures in the process. If you fail, you are constrained without harm by the materials enclosing you— the spell cannot crush you by increasing your size.

All equipment you wear or carry is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee and projectile weapons deal more damage. Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves your possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage (projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them).

Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.

[DragoonKain]

Ah, yeah. Completely blanked.

Nevermind, then. Thanks.

[TheNovak]

Well then either we have to accept impossible but funny/dramatic feats (which is fine by me) or Haley has to have at least 1 level of Fighter somewhere to account for the extra feat, no?

There's no evidence for the level of fighter, but if she DID have it, she'd also have received Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longbow) for free, which would give her two feats to play with instead of just one. (Assuming she didn't take the proficiency feat before she took the level of fighter, anyway.)

[Sstoopidtallkid]

There's no evidence for the level of fighter, but if she DID have it, she'd also have received Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longbow) for free, which would give her two feats to play with instead of just one. (Assuming she didn't take the proficiency feat before she took the level of fighter, anyway.)And if she's an Aasimar, she doesn't need the MWP feat, either. :smallwink:

Huh. Does anyone know Durkon's actual height? He's 15 feet tall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html) after casting, so it may boost him by 2 size categories. That wouldn't be Righteous Might, but something even more powerful.

[Forealms]

Am I wrong, or does Roy show that he has the Sunder feat in the second panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html)? Theoretically, it could be a bonus feat with Durkon's ancestral shield/hammer, but i doubt it.

EDIT @ TheNovak below: I thought Neverwinter Nights would never steer my wrong (except for the really obvious parts) in the ways of D&D... I feel so empty inside :smalltongue:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Am I wrong, or does Roy show that he has the Sunder feat in the second panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html)? Theoretically, it could be a bonus feat with Durkon's ancestral shield/hammer, but i doubt it.Ranged weapons can't take AoOs.

[TheNovak]

Am I wrong, or does Roy show that he has the Sunder feat in the second panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0240.html)? Theoretically, it could be a bonus feat with Durkon's ancestral shield/hammer, but i doubt it.

That's Neverwinter Nights, I believe. In regular D&D, there's no such thing as a Sunder feat; it's an action that anyone can perform. There is an Improved Sunder feat, which allows you to sunder without receiving an Attack of Opportunity, though (and appropros of nothing)

[Chronos]

A couple of levels of ranger would make even more sense for Haley (a feat plus all martial weapons, and she'd also keep her skill points high), except that she's told us that she doesn't have any ranger yet (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html).

[Kurald Galain]

Rather, I think the explanation is that Haley really doesn't have Ranged Pin or Ranged Sunder. Note how every single other feat possessed by the Order is straight from the PHB (except for CDMI, which is meant as a joke) - whereas these two are rather obscure.

Ranged Pin really applies to creatures, whereas dead Roy is an object; furthermore, she uses this precisely once, never mentions the feat or tries it when it could be useful, does not hit where she was aiming for (you're not telling me she intentionally hit his crotch) and frankly sticking a big object to a wall shouldn't be hard for a high-level archer. That also means she doesn't need Precise Shot, its prereq, which she has likewise used precisely never.

Ranged Sunder is useful for breaking any kind of melee weapon with any kind of missile weapon, and again shooting through a huge piece of rope with a bow, from hiding even, is such a tropeful trick that it doesn't need a feat. If she actually had Ranged Sunder, Haley would have aimed for Tsukiko's spell components.

Occam's Razor indicates that Rule Of Funny is a better explanation (it doesn't even have to be Funny Trumps Rules, because there aren't any rules against an archer pinning objects or shooting through rope), better than giving Haley different new races and classes when there's zero statements, ever, indicating that she is anything other than a pure human pure rogue. And no, the phrase "I'm not exactly what you'd call..." doesn't count because she could finish that sentence in at least a dozen different ways.

[Mc. Lovin']

Actually, I think she tried to ranged pin Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html)to the entrance to Azure City castle

[Chrismith]

Actually, I think she tried to ranged pin Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html)to the entrance to Azure City castle

What makes you think that? In the linked comic, Haley says:

"I just need to peg him hard so that he looks over here and sees a bunch of high-level PCs. Then he can come over and fight us instead of going into the castle."

No part of that screams "Ranged Pin" to me.

[Kurald Galain]

Actually, I think she tried to ranged pin Redcloak (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0454.html)to the entrance to Azure City castle

If she did, then she failed big time at it - and you don't need a feat to fail at pinning something :smallbiggrin:

[Mc. Lovin']

What makes you think that? In the linked comic, Haley says:

"I just need to peg him hard so that he looks over here and sees a bunch of high-level PCs. Then he can come over and fight us instead of going into the castle."

No part of that screams "Ranged Pin" to me.

Just the "Pegging hum to the wall" thing.

[RMS Oceanic]

When did she mention wall? I always thought "peg" could be used as "impale".

[Mc. Lovin']

I guess I took the literall meaning of peg to mean what I wanted it to. My bad fellas, I guess she dont have ranged pin after all.

[Fitzclowningham]

About Belkar in #606 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html) - does he have any ranks in Bluff? If he's going to turn his life in a new direction, and pretend to adhere to a moral code in which he is completely uninterested (and to which he has been utterly insensitive thus far), he's going to need to mobilize some serious BS. Is there any indication in the archives or books that he can act at all?

I think this is a setup for an epic fail. It will be very funny until he dies.

[Kurald Galain]

About Belkar in #606 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html) - does he have any ranks in Bluff?
Not that I know of, but then most of the Order (or indeed anyone they've met so far) doesn't have ranks in Sense Motive either. It could happen that e.g. Haley sees through him but nobody believes her.

[Chrismith]

About Belkar in #606 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0606.html) - does he have any ranks in Bluff? If he's going to turn his life in a new direction, and pretend to adhere to a moral code in which he is completely uninterested (and to which he has been utterly insensitive thus far), he's going to need to mobilize some serious BS. Is there any indication in the archives or books that he can act at all?

I think this is a setup for an epic fail. It will be very funny until he dies.

This isn't really indicative of his ranks in Bluff, but the first thing I thought of when I read your post was when Belkar told a tale about his childhood (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0125.html) in order to get the roleplaying XP. So he's capable of gaming the system, so to speak, when it suits him.

[Wrecan]

Most of OOTS won't care if he's faking being good or is good. As long as he's not betraying them or stabbing random innocents, they're pretty content. And the humor for Belkar going forward will be in him trying to suss out exactly what the arbitrary social conventions he's faking are.

[Tempest Fennac]

Just thinking about Crystal sundering Haley's bow: would she need Improved Sonder to destroy it with a +4 weapon?

[RMS Oceanic]

Aww, just when we discovered a tidbit about Haley's bow, she goes and loses it! :smallfrown:

[Tempest Fennac]

Can it be fixed? I know Mending will cause it to lose the +3, and I'm guessing Make Whole would be the same.

[Kurald Galain]

Just thinking about Crystal sundering Haley's bow: would she need Improved Sonder to destroy it with a +4 weapon?
No. The only things improved sunder does are those in the feat description (e.g. you get a +4 bonus and no AoO). An old tradition is that any +X material can only be broken with something made of +Y material where Y > X; but, this is not (to my knowledge) actually a part of the 3E rules.

However. Miko and Windstriker also sundered Haleys bow (at the Stupid Railroad Plot), and it was fixed by the Azure craftsmen before it was returned to her. So yeah, it's technically fixable somehow.

(edit) if this is an attempt to stat out Crystal, I think this strip proves that she's officially stupider than Elan is, and has a near-zero intelligence score.

[RMS Oceanic]

It's less about intelligence than Wisdom in this case. I think we can safely say her Sense Motive modifier is lower than Haley's bluff check.

[Kurald Galain]

It's less about intelligence than Wisdom in this case.
She's also gullible, but that ludicrous plan about pickles implies a very low intelligence.

[Wrecan]

OP updated to remove Haley's bow!

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I have to wonder how, exactly, that girl dealt 46 points of damage in one hit without SA or DA. Combine that with the fact that Haley had +4, she had -4, and they had the same BAB, the opposed roll becomes hard to believe, and I'm wondering why Bozzok, who is apparently smart, thought this was a good plan.

Also, apparently Haley doesn't provoke when using her longbow.

[Morty]

Also, apparently Haley doesn't provoke when using her longbow.

It might be that she does, but Crystal chose not or forgot to use her AoO because she was explaining her "plan" to Haley. Yeah, she's dumb like a brick. I'd put her Int score at 6.

[Enlong]

It might be that she does, but Crystal chose not or forgot to use her AoO because she was explaining her "plan" to Haley. Yeah, she's dumb like a brick. I'd put her Int score at 6.

Man, really? Come on. That's just mean.

You owe an apology to the bricks of the world.

[hamishspence]

Int 8 is "average orc" Int 6 is rather low.

[Wrecan]

I have to wonder how, exactly, that girl dealt 46 points of damage in one hit without SA or DA.
If she has Improved Sunder, then she has Power Attack. Since she's been leveling up to keep up with Haley, she's probably 14th level, giving her a BAB of +10. Let's give Crystal a Str commensurate with Haley's Dexterity (i.e., +5 bonus).

However. the +3 longbow had hardness 11 hardness and 35 hp! Also a dagger is a light weapon (-4 on the opposed roll)

First, the opposed roll. Crystal has a +5 (+10 BAB, -10 PA, +4 dagger, -4 lt weapon, +5 Str), and Haley is rolling a +18 (+10 BAB, +3 bow, +5 Dex)!

So Crystal got lucky. Also, she might be prepped with some buffs to improve her attacks.

Second, damage. d3+4 (dagger) +5 (Str) +10 (PA) = 20-22 hp. That's insufficient... unless she managed a critical hit! That would give her the damage needed to sunder Haley's box in one shot.

Other alternatives...
1) Crystal did a full attack, and we didn't see the second swing, which also hit.
2) Haley's bow was damaged earlier in a fight against another thief we haven't seen.
3) Crystal has a multi-class or prestige class of some sort that lets her make a sneak attack even if the foe is not denied dex bonus to AC or flanked.


apparently Haley doesn't provoke when using her longbow.
I imagine Crystal was just over 5' away when Haley shot. Then Crystal five-foot stepped into reach and Sundered the bow.

[hamishspence]

can't power attack with daggers, though that weapon is a shade bigger than most daggers.

The weapon breaker dagger, or parrying dagger, exists in 2nd ed, but I haven't seen it in 3rd. 4th makes it more for parrying, not breaking.

[TerrickTerran]

Yeah, we won't get anything official on Crystal's Intelligence, but she's got to be Thog level Int at BEST. Are there any stats for her weapon officially btw?

[hamishspence]

I can't find any weapons in 3.0 to 3.5 that are that good at breaking other weapons- Shatterspike in DMG is only passable, and its a longsword.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

I can't find any weapons in 3.0 to 3.5 that are that good at breaking other weapons- Shatterspike in DMG is only passable, and its a longsword.The Greathammer, from MMIV, gets +4 on sunder attempts, but that's clearly not what Crystal is using.

[hamishspence]

a bonus to hit is ok, but whats needed is a bonus to damage. Or, a lot of damage boosting effects.

[Morty]

It might very well be a weird-looking shortsword or kukri. It doesn't explain the ease with which she sundered Haley's bow, though.

[hamishspence]

still a light weapon- needs to be at least one-handed to benefit from PA, like a longsword.

[Porthos]

I'm going to repeat what I just said in the main discussion thread. We can't be proof positive that Crystal is actually carrying around a dagger. First off that looks like no dagger I've ever seen. Secondly, Crystal is already established as being dumber than a bag of rocks. So it's entirely possible that she doesn't even know what her weapon is called and just calls it a dagger coz it's easy to remember.

So it is possible (if unlikely) that it has a different damage and or crit range. If it's an exotic/cheese weapon, it might indeed have a x3 (or even x4 with extreme cheesiness) crit multiplier. Throw on some weird enhancements to the dagger (as a for instance adamantium was suggested in the Main Discussion Thread as a way to bypass the hardness of the bow) and or Crystal and then it might indeed be possible.

[Nargrakhan]

I'm going to repeat what I just said in the main discussion thread. We can't be proof positive that Crystal is actually carrying around a dagger. First off that looks like no dagger I've ever seen.

Daggers come in some REALLY strange shapes and designs:

http://www.northstarzone.com/id6.html

The type (as in artistic style) of her dagger can be seen on that page. Not exactly sure how useful it be in a real life blade fight - but anything goes in a magical fantasy world...

According to a sword book I have, daggers are for stabbing and knives are for slashing, but the two words have become interchangeable ever since bladed weapons dropped out of importance (i.e. people began to not care about the difference).

[Kurald Galain]

I have to wonder how, exactly, that girl dealt 46 points of damage in one hit without SA or DA.

For starters, the "dagger" could be adamantine.

[Wrecan]

For starters, the "dagger" could be adamantine.
Excellent point! Also, people are right to point out that her "dagger" is probably a one-handed weapon. Not only does that eliminate the -4 penalty on the sunder, it allows for Power Attack, making the sunder more feasible, though she'd still need a critical hit to do it in one shot.

[Kurald Galain]

For that matter, Haley, who is obviously smarter than Crystal, calls it a funky sword (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html), so I concur that it is not, in fact, a dagger. Or perhaps it's a large-sized or huge-sized dagger, which for us humans counts as a sword anyway.

[Doug Lampert]

No. The only things improved sunder does are those in the feat description (e.g. you get a +4 bonus and no AoO). An old tradition is that any +X material can only be broken with something made of +Y material where Y > X; but, this is not (to my knowledge) actually a part of the 3E rules.

IIRC that was basically the 3.0 rule, the object could only be sundered by something of an equal or greater +, but if you had such a weapon the sunder was trivial.

[Maryring]

I don't think it is possible to crit against objects...

[LuisDantas]

However. Miko and Windstriker also sundered Haleys bow (at the Stupid Railroad Plot), and it was fixed by the Azure craftsmen before it was returned to her. So yeah, it's technically fixable somehow.

However, they broke the string instead of the handle, so it is conceivable that it will be harder to fix the bow this time.

[RMS Oceanic]

Re-reading Origin of PCs:

:durkon: : High wisdom means a decent untrained listen check.

So we can say Durkon has no ranks in Listen, yes?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Re-reading Origin of PCs:


So we can say Durkon has no ranks in Listen, yes?He didn't have any, but he may have put ranks in it since. And we can't even figure out how many ranks, since we don't know his Int mod.

[RMS Oceanic]

Roy might have put more ranks in ride, but we still note him as having one rank. That quote is solid evidence about what Durkon doesn't have, and we assume he continues to not have it until proof otherwise, as far as I know.

[Mc. Lovin']

Roy might have put more ranks in ride, but we still note him as having one rank. That quote is solid evidence about what Durkon doesn't have, and we assume he continues to not have it until proof otherwise, as far as I know.

Mmm, I agree with this, otherwise we could just say that with most of the skills we've seen. And points, for that matter.

[Amon Star]

I don't think it is possible to crit against objects...

It isn't, unless you have a funky feat or ability. Same with Sneak Attach vs Objects, so both can't be used for in the discussion. However, the Giant often represents 'multiple attacks' from a single weapon as just one swing, so I say the 'Full Attack' option seems the most likely.

[Dreamthiev]

If we're stating Crystal, she's got at least one level of assassin: she hit Haley with a Death Attack instead of a Sneak Attack with the Pickles. Fortunately Death Attack specifies that the weapon must deal damage. :smallwink:

Edit: Also, about her shattering Haley's bow, some options: an Eagle Claw Talisman fits in the throat slot and gives +5 competence to strength checks to break objects. A Sundering weapon gives the improved Sunder feat and grants an additional 1d6 damage for sundering. There's probably some Sunder-related feats and abilities, too.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Is there any reason at all Haley wouldn't SA with a sap?

[Dreamthiev]

If Crystal is a rogue/assassin (which I think is most likely) she has access to improved uncanny dodge and can't be sneak-attacked except by a someone four or more levels higher than her. Since she's Haley's personal rival they're going to be (about) the same level.

[Chrismith]

If Crystal is a rogue/assassin (which I think is most likely) she has access to improved uncanny dodge and can't be sneak-attacked except by a someone four or more levels higher than her. Since she's Haley's personal rival they're going to be (about) the same level.

Not quite. Improved Uncanny Dodge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/Classes/rogue.htm#improvedUncannyDodge) specifically denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, such as we saw in comic 604 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0604.html). In today's comic, Haley wasn't flanking Crystal, the assassin was (presumably) flat-footed. As for the sneak attack, it's possible that Haley did perform one, but didn't announce it.

[RMS Oceanic]

True, but Crystal almost certainly has at least regular uncanny dodge, which retains dexterity to AC when flat footed. I suspect the Sap attack was just a normal attack.

Also, a quick but important question: does Uncanny Dodge of any form protect its owner from a Death Attack?

[pjackson]

Also, a quick but important question: does Uncanny Dodge of any form protect its owner from a Death Attack?

Yes. A death attack must be a sneak attack and uncanny dodge stops some sneak attacks.

[Dreamthiev]

As was said, even with regular uncanny dodge someone doesn't lose their dex bonus for being flat-footed, so they can't be sneak attacked. Since Crystal should have both regular and improved uncanny dodge, Haley wouldn't be able to sneak attack her at all.

And since Haley has Improved Uncanny Dodge too, Crystal won't be able to successfully Death Attack her. The pickles wouldn't have worked anyway, even if they did damage, since Death Attack requires a melee weapon.

[RMS Oceanic]

That makes for a much more interesting fight, incidentally. Both combatants are robbed of their ability to get a fight-ending cheap shot in. It's purely a matter of brains vs brawn.

[RMS Oceanic]

And all of a Sudden, Bozzak becomes statable!

He's at least a level 17 rogue, with proficiency with shields and exotic proficiency with the Bastard Sword, meaning he has a strength of 13. All this indicates he might have taken a level in fighter.

[OmegaDonut]

Is there a way for Haley to have stunned Crystal with her boot without needing Improved Unarmed Strike?

EDIT: And Stunning Fist, too.

[TheNovak]

No, even with Improved Unarmed Strike, she'd need the Stunning Blow feat/class ability/whatever from the monk class. Dunno if there's any D&D-based explanation for those panels, actually. Maybe she attacked as a standard action, then...I dunno, made some kind of tumble check to stand up and move at the same time?

But that's irrelevant. The point is, no, there's no way she could've (that I know of.)

[Ionizer]

No, even with Improved Unarmed Strike, she'd need the Stunning Blow feat/class ability/whatever from the monk class. Dunno if there's any D&D-based explanation for those panels, actually. Maybe she attacked as a standard action, then...I dunno, made some kind of tumble check to stand up and move at the same time?

But that's irrelevant. The point is, no, there's no way she could've (that I know of.)

Or the sap sneak attack and a few unarmed strikes could have made Crystals Non-Lethal damage=Her Hp, which would leave her staggered. I think that would give Haley a chance to get away, at least until Bozzak stalled her enough for Crystal to snap out of Staggered.

[lord_khaine]

Or the sap sneak attack and a few unarmed strikes could have made Crystals Non-Lethal damage=Her Hp, which would leave her staggered. I think that would give Haley a chance to get away, at least until Bozzak stalled her enough for Crystal to snap out of Staggered.

this doesnt hold, for a start it takes around a hour to begin recovering nonleathal damage, and besides that Haley could not have done so much damage in so short time.

[Wrecan]

1) We don't know how long the catfight fight took -- there certainly could have been enough time for Haley to sap Crystal into a staggered condition. Essentially, it's Haley's sap doing d6+Str nonlethal against Crystal's dagger doing d4+Str lethal. Given that Crystal is a melee combatant (higher Str) and Haley a ranged combatant (higher Dex), it's probably close to even.
2) Crystal may have taken a healing potion between frames 2 and 12.

[ColdSepp]

And all of a Sudden, Bozzak becomes statable!

He's at least a level 17 rogue, with proficiency with shields and exotic proficiency with the Bastard Sword, meaning he has a strength of 13. All this indicates he might have taken a level in fighter.

And he dropped his buckler and used it two handed, which could mean he has Power Attack, or just wanted that 1.5 STR damage from wielding two handed.

[RMS Oceanic]

Not necessarily true just yet, but I think everyone should get ready to wave bye-bye to Belkar's Mark of Justice.

[Kurald Galain]

Essentially, it's Haley's sap doing d6+Str nonlethal against Crystal's dagger doing d4+Str lethal.
Except that it isn't a dagger.
I believe the girls were grappling. Which is more convoluted rules-wise than the story calls for, but even if big weapons aren't useable, it still gives Crystal the advantage.


Not necessarily true just yet, but I think everyone should get ready to wave bye-bye to Belkar's Mark of Justice.
Per the last frame of 610, yes. That's what remove curse does.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The Cleric specifically refers to Haley as pretty in 610. Is that enough to establish her as having a positive Cha mod?

[TheNovak]

The Cleric specifically refers to Haley as pretty in 610. Is that enough to establish her as having a positive Cha mod?

Charisma does not necessarily equal physical attractiveness.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Charisma does not necessarily equal physical attractiveness.Actually, it does.
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Charisma does not necessarily equal physical attractiveness.

Perhaps not, but it seems to be the case (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0028.html) in Ootsverse.

[Fitzclowningham]

The way the boys were pressed up against the inn wall just to hear Haley talk about what they thought were her boobs, and the way Eugene suggests to Roy they should try to scry her in the shower, make me pretty certain she's got some positive charisma. Along with how well she bluffs all the time, I think it's pretty obvious. Oh, and I almost forgot - she pushed to be second in command, and was capable and believable at it.

If I had to guess, I'd say she has a 15 or 16 - high enough to be effective, and low enough that there are prettier girls than she is occasionally.

[Hydro Globus]

Charisma does not necessarily equal physical attractiveness.

I agree.

If someone has a great force of personality, lots of persuasiveness, quite strong personal magnetism, and an innate ability to lead, but is ugly like hell, s/he would likely still have high CHA.

So ONLY beauty doesn't constitute a high CHA.

[hamishspence]

yes. Question is- how do we account for person with no social skills but very high Charisma? Someone who put no ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, etc, but is still good at them.

"Instinctive talent?"

[Mc. Lovin']

So ONLY beauty doesn't constitute a high CHA.

She also has a high bluff, doesn't she?

[Grey Watcher]

But the point is that none of those things actually put any kind of a quantifiable number on her Charisma score. Yeah, it's probably a safe assumption, but there's nothing to explicitly PROVE that her Charisma score is... well, anything!

[Hydro Globus]

On level 13, the 16 levels of Bluff count a lot more then the (possible) -2 to +4 CHR modifiers. I think.

[hamishspence]

she has a very good Bluff, right from the very beginning. Cha is tricky to estimate- maybe if she does well at a Cha-based skill she is unlikely to have invested any points in (Intimidate?) it might show higher than average Cha.

[Kurald Galain]

However, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0312.html), Vaarsuvius says that "all the party members with any charisma" are elsewhere. This refers to Roy, Elan, and Haley. Note that V says "all", not "both", thus he is definitely referring to all three of them; V is pedantic like that.

This means two things: (1) Roy, Elan and Haley have a positive charisma mod, and (2) Durkon, Belkar and Vaarsuvius do not. The latter is already in the Geekery list, the former is not.

[Hydro Globus]

First I wanted to say Vaarsuvius meant only Roy and Elan, but you are correct, s/he would've said "both". I think.

[Chronos]

I agree on giving Haley a 12+ Cha on those grounds. Probably higher, as evidenced by how much everyone seems to lust afterlike her and how good she is with the social skills, but that's a lot fuzzier than Vaarsuvius's statement.

[TheNovak]

Yeah, the ranks in Bluff would suggest that she has a decent Charisma, but it's not a confirmation. For instance, a lot of Fighters put ranks into Intimidate despite having a low Charisma; the ranks balance the ability penalty out. The same could theoretically apply to Haley and her Bluff.

It probably is a safe assumption, of course. But I've been informed that this thread does not operate off of assumptions :smallwink:

[RMS Oceanic]

This strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html), besides being a Crowning Moment of Awesome, is also proof that Belkar has less than five levels of Barbarian, as he does not have improved uncanny dodge.

[Wrecan]

He couldn't have that many levels of barbarian anyway. They only gained two levels since he multiclassed.

[RMS Oceanic]

True, but it's still evidence of what level he is(n't).

[Douglas]

I'd say it is also evidence that he doesn't have even 2 levels of Barbarian - he'd have regular Uncanny Dodge if he did, which would be enough to prevent the sneak attack on the Acid Arrow. I suppose it's possible that the wizard just didn't realize it and was too distracted to comment on it afterwards, but I think it's more likely the level drained by the wight back in Azure City was drained permanently and Belkar is still a Ranger 12/Barbarian 1. I do not expect this to remain the case for much longer, however, considering all the xp he should be getting from this and the upcoming fight with Crystal and Bozzok.

Also, the Mark of Justice needs to be removed from his equipment list. The massacre in this strip is solid proof that it's gone completely.

[Wrecan]

Uncanny Dodge only lets you retain your Dex bonus. It doesn't make you immune to anything, so the fact that Belkar was hit isn't evidence of anything.

[Enlong]

In panel 10 of the new comic, Belkar kills three people in what appears to be the same jump. Is that Great Cleave, or something else?

[Douglas]

Uncanny Dodge only lets you retain your Dex bonus. It doesn't make you immune to anything, so the fact that Belkar was hit isn't evidence of anything.
Uncanny Dodge would have let Belkar keep his dex bonus against the wizard. Sneak attack requires either flanking or denying dex bonus. Flanking is not possible with ranged weapons, so if Belkar had Uncanny Dodge neither of the requirements for sneak attack would have been met on that attack. The two melee rogues were flanking him, so they would have gotten sneak attack regardless.

[Shadic]

Considering that Belkar was directly ordering Mr. Scruffy around in 611, could we say that our dear housecat is now his animal companion?

[Liwen]

It is a fair conclusion to believe Belkar is still level 13. Yet the constitution check against the wight's energy drain is fairly low for Belkar's level, so that ranged attack might not have been a sneak attack.

Right now It would be best to not advance any conclusions. We simply don't have enough intel.

That Jump/charge/cleave/tumble attack was disturbing hovewer. Rich MIGHT have over-ruled the combat system to add some awesome to the scene.

[Enlong]

Considering that Belkar was directly ordering Mr. Scruffy around in 611, could we say that our dear housecat is now his animal companion?

It's entirely possible, but it's equally possible that he Trained Mr. Scruffy without making him his Animal Companion.

[Tempest Fennac]

While it's not really relevant now, the comic also shows that Chuck has access to Conjuration and Evocation spells. Could the fact that he was apparently unable to get rid of the fog suggest he barred Abjuration? (Admittedly, he hay have just failed to store Dispell). Also, regarding the Wight, unless that incident happened over 13 weeks ago, Durkon should be able to fix it witha Greater Restoration, so it isn't perminant yet.

EDIT: The fact that Chuck only fired 1 Scortching Ray tells us he has less then 7 Wizard levels altogether as well. Assuming he took the quickest AT path, he must have been a Rogue 3/Wizard 5/ AT 1 at the most. Jenny's use of Hideous Laughter suggests either 2 Bard levels or 4 Sorceress levels as well.

[Flame of Anor]

Seriously! It's so simple! (Let me just say this now: if someone has already come up with this, then: aw dammit to heck)

In OOTS #94 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0094.html), which is between the scroll use and the mention of an ability score penalty, the Order walks through the Corridor of Very Toxic Sulfur Fumes, which "cause brain damage." Belkar doesn't seem to care. And there you go! Belkar's Wisdom was 10, but the sulfur fumes drained it to 9!

[RMS Oceanic]

An entertaining theory, but shouldn't this be in the Geekery thread?

[Greg]

It's entirely possible, but it's equally possible that he Trained Mr. Scruffy without making him his Animal Companion.
He appears to be giving orders as a free action though.

[Amon Star]

Uncanny Dodge would have let Belkar keep his dex bonus against the wizard. Sneak attack requires either flanking or denying dex bonus. Flanking is not possible with ranged weapons, so if Belkar had Uncanny Dodge neither of the requirements for sneak attack would have been met on that attack. The two melee rogues were flanking him, so they would have gotten sneak attack regardless.

While I agree it looks likely that :belkar: only has 1 level of Barbarian, we must remember that he's forgotten about abilities before. This could be one of those times.
It is a fair conclusion to believe Belkar is still level 13. Yet the constitution check against the wight's energy drain is fairly low for Belkar's level, so that ranged attack might not have been a sneak attack.

Regarding the Wights. They were at the very least heavily buffed and possible had extra Hit Die. Remember, they were meant to be elite and their creator didn't think of them as simple Cannon Fodder. So the save was probably a lot higher than normal.
That Jump/charge/cleave/tumble attack was disturbing however. Rich MIGHT have over-ruled the combat system to add some awesome to the scene.

I agree that it was likely artistic licence. Those three were probably low level so that little jump attack just showed how easily The Shoeless One one shotted them.
He appears to be giving orders as a free action though.

I agree. Scruffy is most likely Stunty's Animal Companion. Especially because :belkar: doesn't know how to train animals normally.

[Hydro Globus]

Also: why is it in any way significant?

(note: a ranger can't use spells even with 10 WIS, and Belkar had the same attitude before comic #94).

[SinsI]

That Jump/charge/cleave/tumble attack was disturbing hovewer. Rich MIGHT have over-ruled the combat system to add some awesome to the scene.
Each of those three has two wounds of them - consistent with Belkar's six attacks per round.
The fact that it was enough to kill them means they were around level 8 or weaker.

[Forum Staff]

The thread regarding Belkar's Wisdom score has been merged into this one.

[Grey Watcher]

Also: why is it in any way significant?

(note: a ranger can't use spells even with 10 WIS, and Belkar had the same attitude before comic #94).

A Ranger needs at least 11 Wisdom to actually prepare his/her own spells, yes. But, when casting off of a scroll you just need the bare minimum (10) to cast spells of that type (in this case, Wisdom). Belkar's inability to use the scroll BEFORE walking through the fumes indicates his Wisdom was already 9 or lower.

[Hydro Globus]

No, that was an answer to the OP back when it was a thread on its own. Sorry :)

[Enlong]

He appears to be giving orders as a free action though.

It could be a move action. By the time we next see Belkar in-panel, Chuck has drawn a weapon (a move action) and cast a spell (a standard action), and we don't get to see what Belkar was doing in that time.

Just playing Devil's advocate here. Now, if Mr. Scruffy dodges a Fireball or something, then that would be proof.

[baerdith]

Regarding Haley's Charisma. She is obviously the best looking oots character (other than Elan) and she does have the ability to lead. As far as making even Durkon drool, I would lay money on Haley's Chr being in the 15-17 range, maybe not as high as Samantha, but she was a Sorc, after all.

I believe 603 shows Haley's Int to be MUCH higher than Nale's. Nale spent 7 tries to say what he wanted. Haley took one..... also 611 shows off Haley's Tumble skill.

And yet another vote for Mr. Scruffy being Belkar's AC.

[Nerdanel]

The latest strip has evidence for Belkar having at least three daggers. In the fourth-last panel of #611 Belkar throws two daggers while one dagger is still visible in his belt. (In the previous panel two dagger tips were showing in that particular location, one of the thrown daggers presumably having been stored elsewhere on his body.)

On the other hand, the next panel shows Belkar from the front and the third dagger is missing. But since this is OOTS where sheathed weapons are invisible all the time that doesn't have to mean that the third dagger was just a case of accidental duplication.

Oh, and Belkar picks up his daggers too, so we can say he has them.

[Goldwing]

Chrismith, after having reviewed the 3.5 MM, I’m going to have to agree with Dreamthiev on Sabine. Being an evil incarnation of illicit sex would heavily imply Succubus rather than one of the Furies. Of course she is homebrewed to some extent, all of these characters are…so, she could be half of both. :smalltongue: I prefer to believe that The Giant would not make things quite so complicated, though.


For the illicit sex bit:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0394.html

[shakes019]

So has anyone actually statted the Greysky City Thieve's Guild? I see many references to the characters, but no stat blocks.

[Wrecan]

In the fourth-last panel of #611 Belkar throws two daggers while one dagger is still visible in his belt.
I don't think that's a dagger visible on his belt. I think that's Jenny's dress.

[rxmd]

So has anyone actually statted the Greysky City Thieve's Guild? I see many references to the characters, but no stat blocks.
Not worth it, they'll all be dead in a couple of strips.

[hamishspence]

he throws two daggers with his right hand, and there does appear to be one still there. Maybe he carries spares?

[Hydro Globus]

Well, if Mat Cauthon gets to keep dozens on himself...

[Wrecan]

I see it now! Good catch!! Updated.

[Mc. Lovin']

It's entirely possible, but it's equally possible that he Trained Mr. Scruffy without making him his Animal Companion.

Training him whilst in his cursed state was hardly probable.

Also, in bonus strips in No Cure for the Paladin Blues it shows how little he knows about training animals (Haley has to teach him but even then doesn't finish the lesson)

[Mc. Lovin']

I see it now! Good catch!! Updated.

Could I vote towards that being an artistic error? It is in the exact same position as one of the two thrown daggers. I think Rich's just forgot to delete it.

[Tomada]

Training him whilst in his cursed state was hardly probable.

Also, in bonus strips in No Cure for the Paladin Blues it shows how little he knows about training animals (Haley has to teach him but even then doesn't finish the lesson)

Look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html), Belkar totally had time to train Mr. Scruffy. Fifth panel.

[Mc. Lovin']

Look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html), Belkar totally had time to train Mr. Scruffy. Fifth panel.

Allright, scratch that part.


Also, in bonus strips in No Cure for the Paladin Blues it shows how little he knows about training animals (Haley has to teach him but even then doesn't finish the lesson)

Also, Mr Scruffy's never directly followed B's orders before now.

[TerrickTerran]

I could see it being an extra dagger but just as easily her dress. It's a strange mix of gray and white there.

[Kurald Galain]

Regarding Haley's Charisma. She is obviously the best looking oots character (other than Elan) and she does have the ability to lead. As far as making even Durkon drool, I would lay money on Haley's Chr being in the 15-17 range, maybe not as high as Samantha, but she was a Sorc, after all.

I believe 603 shows Haley's Int to be MUCH higher than Nale's. Nale spent 7 tries to say what he wanted. Haley took one.....

I completely agree on both.

Furthermore, it is really obvious by now that Sabine is a succubus, and also that Mr. Scruffy is Belkar's animal companion. Occam's razor, people. Rangers have animal companions, and Belkar doesn't have the patience to train anything.

Belkar's third dagger does appear to be a printing error, however Belkar has been known to casually throw daggers around before (e.g. in his fight against Miko (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0279.html)) so he likely carries over a dozen of them.

[Tomada]

Considering that Belkar was directly ordering Mr. Scruffy around in 611, could we say that our dear housecat is now his animal companion?

probably.


It's entirely possible, but it's equally possible that he Trained Mr. Scruffy without making him his Animal Companion.

Not without spending a move action, no.

And maybe, just maybe (and that's not part of a attempt to stat Mr. Scruffy ) he has some silver claws and teeth of awesomeness, just like argent does.

[Enlong]

probably.



Not without spending a move action, no.

And maybe, just maybe (and that's not part of a attempt to stat Mr. Scruffy ) he has some silver claws and teeth of awesomeness, just like argent does.

And again, it could very well be a move action. Belkar orders Mr. Scruffy offscreen, and Chuck has cast a non-quickened spell and drawn a weapon by the time we next see Belkar in-panel.

[Thant]

Is Belkar possibly having Cleave/Greater Cleave (611, 1st panel second page)? Or are those just the extra attacks?

[Amon Star]

I believe 603 shows Haley's Int to be MUCH higher than Nale's. Nale spent 7 tries to say what he wanted. Haley took one.

Personally, I would say that's a result of Wisdom, not Intelligence. :nale: had trouble with Sending because he's an Egomaniac that loves the sound of his own voice, as well as showing off his genius. However, he's smart enough to know this about himself and do something about it when he must, as shown here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html).

Haley, on the other hand, doesn't feel the need to constantly reinforce herself self worth to everyone. Also, she was in a life and death situation at the time, when Ex-Beardie wasn't, and had only one chance to cast the spell. Completely different situations.
Look here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html), Belkar totally had time to train Mr. Scruffy. Fifth panel.

It says a short time later. It takes a lot longer than that to train a domestic animal to attack someone.
Also, Mr Scruffy's never directly followed B's orders before now.

Actually, he has. Here's one example. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0522.html) Also, Mr Scruffy showed loyalty to :belkar: here, too, in the seventh panel. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0570.html)

[Mc. Lovin']

Hmmm, I think the first strip you linked to could be passed off as him comming because of the Tuna Treats, and no matter how you look at it there's been no time to train him by then (He'd just come out of the bag!)

And whilst Belkar was off panel for an unknown amount of rounds there's no way that he trained Mr. Scruffy in that time, with his extremly limited knowledge of it.

As for the second one, I think that only serves proof that he was the animal companion back then as well, as he was not ordered to join B


Finally, I'd like to say that I think that all discussions on mental ability scores are pointless, because it is all opinion on which score effects what characters action, and the reasons behind the action etc etc.

We can certainly never pin it down, only saying that they have a "high-ish" or "low-ish" in whatever score we were discussing.

Edit:
- I also think that panell 8 of today's comic indicates that B has combat reflexes

[RMS Oceanic]

611 pegs Greysky Cleric's level at least at 8th, as he had both Sending and Cure Critical Wounds prepared. Sending is not on any core domain list, so he has at least two non-domain 4th level spell slots.

[Hydro Globus]

CCW is Healing domain though... Though I doubt Loki has that.

[Kurald Galain]

Personally, I would say that's a result of Wisdom, not Intelligence. :nale: had trouble with Sending because he's an Egomaniac that loves the sound of his own voice, as well as showing off his genius. However, he's smart enough to know this about himself and do something about it when he must, as shown here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0383.html).
You got them backwards. Figuring out a logic problem (like a meaningful sentence in 25 words) is intelligence, whereas self-realization of one's flaws is wisdom (hence Vaarsuvius is so bad at it).

[Chaz Natlo]

I believe that he was suggesting that while he is smart enough to make a message that short, he's not able to, since he loves to talk so much. He was at least aware before hand that he would require more than one.

[Amon Star]

Hmmm, I think the first strip you linked to could be passed off as him comming because of the Tuna Treats, and no matter how you look at it there's been no time to train him by then (He'd just come out of the bag!)

And whilst Belkar was off panel for an unknown amount of rounds there's no way that he trained Mr. Scruffy in that time, with his extremly limited knowledge of it.

As for the second one, I think that only serves proof that he was the animal companion back then as well, as he was not ordered to join B

I fully agree that Scraffy is likely :belkar:'s Animal Companion, I was just pointing out he could have been even back then with the fight with Tsukiko.
Edit:
- I also think that panell 8 of today's comic indicates that B has combat reflexes

Combat Reflexes just increases your number of Attacks of Opportunity. How did those two provoke an AoO?
I believe that he was suggesting that while he is smart enough to make a message that short, he's not able to, since he loves to talk so much. He was at least aware before hand that he would require more than one.

That's exactly what I was suggesting. However, if he had only one scroll, I'm sure he would have managed somehow, as him monologuing in the mirror proves he can overcome it when it's important enough.

[Kurald Galain]

That's exactly what I was suggesting. However, if he had only one scroll, I'm sure he would have managed somehow, as him monologuing in the mirror proves he can overcome it when it's important enough.
Actually, his monologues in the Sending strip prove that he can't. "Who can get anything meaningful said in 25 words?" "How come she can prevent getting cut off but I can't?" "Great, I actually have words left? Then allow me to say --"

Let's face it, we have zero indication that Nale is actually smart, apart from him saying so. We have plenty indication that he really isn't smart, such as his idiotic plans (which fail all the time), and the fact that Vaarsuvius (who is known and proven to be smart) calls him out on his stupidity, and he falls for it.

Of course Haley, who is known for her lack of wisdom (Aphasia) yet is cunning and has a class which synergizes well with intelligence, is going to solve a logic puzzle better than he does. Of course a low-level wizard (Julia) is going to have more intelligence than Nale, and solve the same puzzle faster.

[Dreamthiev]

Mr. Scruffy pretty much has to be an animal companion to be responding to Belkar's orders the way he is.

Animal Handling is used to train animals, and it's a trained only skill. If he didn't complete learning the skill from Haley he shouldn't have any ranks in it. Also, it's is a Charisma based skill, and we know that Belkar has a Cha penalty. He also would've needed to work with Mr. Scruffy for a week uninterrupted. Belkar lacked both the time and the patience for this task since he got Mr. Scruffy, since they departed immediately from Azure City and have been traveling since.

Mr. Scruffy also seems to be doing more damage than a housecat normally would, so he's probably benefitting from the bonus strength as an animal companion.

[pjackson]

Charisma does not necessarily equal physical attractiveness.

Xykon being the proof

[Shadowcaller]

Xykon being the proof

Well maybe he is a really attractive skeleton?:smallwink:

Most of us would not know since we are not intrested in that stuff, the same way we would not be instrested in a kobold with high charisma (I'm not aware that there are any half-kobold yet...)

[Tomada]

Well maybe he is a really attractive skeleton?:smallwink:

Most of us would not know since we are not intrested in that stuff, the same way we would not be instrested in a kobold with high charisma (I'm not aware that there are any half-kobold yet...)

Half-kobold? Belkar would disagree with you..... Oh! You mean half-kobold, half-human? Nevermind then...

[Dreamthiev]

Well maybe he is a really attractive skeleton?:smallwink:

Yeah, I'm sure he has really good bone structure. :smallamused:

[Amon Star]

Actually, his monologues in the Sending strip prove that he can't. "Who can get anything meaningful said in 25 words?" "How come she can prevent getting cut off but I can't?" "Great, I actually have words left? Then allow me to say --"

Let's face it, we have zero indication that Nale is actually smart, apart from him saying so. We have plenty indication that he really isn't smart, such as his idiotic plans (which fail all the time), and the fact that Vaarsuvius (who is known and proven to be smart) calls him out on his stupidity, and he falls for it.

Of course Haley, who is known for her lack of wisdom (Aphasia) yet is cunning and has a class which synergizes well with intelligence, is going to solve a logic puzzle better than he does. Of course a low-level wizard (Julia) is going to have more intelligence than Nale, and solve the same puzzle faster.

:nale:'s plans aren't stupid, just excessively complicated. His first only failed thanks to some spectral advice and a million to one shot. The second again failed again due to unforeseen outside intervention, ie, Julio Scoundrel mentorring :elan:. If it wasn't for that, he would never have made it in time to save :haley:, even if he did find another way to Azure City. One of ex-beardy's problems is that he thinks he's smarter than he is, but that doesn't mean he's actually stupid.
Yeah, I'm sure he has really good bone structure. :smallamused:

Tsukiko sure thought so.:smallwink:

[Kurald Galain]

The second again failed again due to unforeseen outside intervention, ie, Julio Scoundrel mentorring :elan:.
Yes, because wanting to lure Elan to a site with food and an anvil overhead, with Thog nearby on rocket skates, isn't stupid...

[Istari]

Two suggestions

1. Julia has more then 10 charisma since she is the most popular girl in school

2. I brought this up a while ago, Redcloak has black armor as he stated in SoD which would make sense considering the joke would be weird otherwise and it makes sense that as a cleric he would be wearing armor

[Flame of Anor]

Please list Sabine as a succubus. Myself and others have put forward an impressive array of arguments that clearly prove that she is a succubus, not an erinyes, in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97851).

[Wrecan]

Please list Sabine as a succubus. Myself and others have put forward an impressive array of arguments that clearly prove that she is a succubus, not an erinyes, in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97851).

Nobody has "proven" anything. The evidence supports the analysis, but this is the geekery thread. We don't play the odds. When Rich declares her type, it will go on, not before.

[Amon Star]

Yes, because wanting to lure Elan to a site with food and an anvil overhead, with Thog nearby on rocket skates, isn't stupid...

I admit that was daft, however, the Rule of Funny (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfFunny) clearly applies. Also, considering it was a trap for :elan:, it probably would have worked. Just like the Shuriken baited box trap from the bonus comics off Dungeon Crawling Fools.

[RMS Oceanic]

Reading #611 again, Belkar seems to have tripped Jenny as she cast her spell. Since he'd have a -4 penalty to his strength check, it's possible (although not set in stone) that he either has a very high strength score and/or Combat Expertise/Improved Trip.

[Castle_Rogue]

Have anyone noticed that if Starshine has 8 bags of holding (15 lb each), so just there she is carrying 120 lb ?!?!

So if she is not on heavy load (and she is not...) she has at least 16 in STR.
If she is on light load she has to be at least 20 in STR.

Quite strong for a rogue who uses a bow :smallconfused:

[Dreamthiev]

It used to be that no extradimensional space could be placed within another without Bad Things happening. That's no longer the case. The only rule is for placing a bag of holding inside a portable hole.

But the description for the bag of holding doesn't say anything about placing one bag within another. So, Haley could be carrying 7 bags of holding within the 8th bag and only be carting around 15 lbs of weight.

[Amon Star]

Reading #611 again, Belkar seems to have tripped Jenny as she cast her spell. Since he'd have a -4 penalty to his strength check, it's possible (although not set in stone) that he either has a very high strength score and/or Combat Expertise/Improved Trip.

Personally I would say :belkar: has high Strength. He's a Melee fighter that manages to massacre people with daggers. Also, Jenny is a Bard/Rogue/Sorcerer so is unlikely to have that good of a strength score herself. Finally, I think Stunty said somewhere that he doesn't like those Feats.

[Doug Lampert]

611 pegs Greysky Cleric's level at least at 8th, as he had both Sending and Cure Critical Wounds prepared. Sending is not on any core domain list, so he has at least two non-domain 4th level spell slots.Or he could simply have 18+ Wisdom (with a +2 booster that requires starting at 15, trivial for a non-combatant cleric).

[Ossian]

Consider this as a side consideration, on Haley's stats to be.

The sexy redhaired rogue. who grew up in a guild of criminals, with a flair for treasures, sharp sarcasm and agility based combat skills reminded me of the "One Piece" Nami.


"Nami is the crew's navigator. She is also an excellent pickpocket.
She grew up as a misbehaved troublemaker on an island called "Cocoyashi Island" with her adopted older sister Nojiko, and her foster mother, Bellemere.
Bellemere was a mikan farmer and a former Marine soldier.
One day, the Merman Pirates lead by Arlong invaded the island and claimed it as their territory. When Arlong found out about Nami's exceptional skills in cartography, he offered her to join his crew. Nami decided to join Arlong's crew after Arlong said that she could buy her village with 100 million berri.
Nami spent eight years drawing maps for Arlong and stealing treasure from pirates in order to save the village. Eventually, she meets Luffy and Zoro and decides to join them, as she expects to get money out of it. etc...

[silvadel]

Looks like belkar has a nifty magical shield now -- and I am figuring a higher dex than the ~12 -- both by all those misses against him and other things he has done in the past that seem to imply a decent dexterity.

[Falxo]

The sexy redhaired rogue. who grew up in a guild of criminals, with a flair for treasures, sharp sarcasm and agility based combat skills reminded me of the "One Piece" Nami.

Yeah, very same thing here, except it was Nami who reminded me of Haley :smallbiggrin:

They do have a lot of common points. There is also the fact that they both love money to an unhealthy level, though they both collect it to save their loved ones... But even without this goal, they are obsessed by treasures.

Of course, that isn't really useful in this thread :smallbiggrin:

[lord_khaine]

Looks like belkar has a nifty magical shield now -- and I am figuring a higher dex than the ~12 -- both by all those misses against him and other things he has done in the past that seem to imply a decent dexterity.

but we have no proof that the shield is magic yet, and even if it does sound likely that he has a higher dex, then we have not seen any proof of that either.

[Kurald Galain]

Celia has sufficient strength to carry Haley while flying.

[Shadic]

but we have no proof that the shield is magic yet, and even if it does sound likely that he has a higher dex, then we have not seen any proof of that either.

It's being carried around by a level 17+ Rouge that's the leader of a Thieves Guild. I can't imagine it not being magical, and it would certainly explain Belkar's ability to block the two of them.

Well, that and the Total Defense Action.

[Wrecan]

Celia has sufficient strength to carry Haley while flying.

That's not new information. We already knew she could carry Roy while flying.

But we now know that Celia has the fly-by attack feat so that she could pick Haley up mid-move on her delayed action.

[lord_khaine]

It's being carried around by a level 17+ Rouge that's the leader of a Thieves Guild. I can't imagine it not being magical, and it would certainly explain Belkar's ability to block the two of them.


its likely to be magic, but this doesnt prove that its magic.

[hamishspence]

Wouldn't that be the Snatch feat as well?

Nope- that only works it it was enemy she was grabbing. And she'd have to be Huge to take it anyway.

[Kurald Galain]

That's not new information. We already knew she could carry Roy while flying.
True enough, but it's not listed in her character profile.

[Wrecan]

Because we don't know how much Roy or Haley weigh. Plus, it seems incongruous as she'd need a 25+ Str to carry Roy and fly.

[Kurald Galain]

Because we don't know how much Roy or Haley weigh. Plus, it seems incongruous as she'd need a 25+ Str to carry Roy and fly.

Why's that, if Xykon needs only a 14 to carry three people? Roy isn't that heavy. Plus he isn't wearing armor at that time.

[hamishspence]

Maybe she has Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight Wings from Races of the Dragon- or Rich has homebrewed an equivalent- result- can fly with heavy load.

[Mc. Lovin']

I personally think he ignores that sorta stuff for carrying people.

[Kurald Galain]

Maybe she has Reinforced Wings and Heavyweight Wings from Races of the Dragon- or Rich has homebrewed an equivalent- result- can fly with heavy load.

Let me put it this way: if we can claim that either she has a slightly above average strength (like listed for every single other character that has been seen carrying somebody while flying) OR we can claim she has an obscure feat - which of the two would be more likely, and which would be more in line with how we present every other bit of information in this thread? Occam, people.

[vrellum]

In 613 Belkar attacked Julia with both weapons on a charge, he also appears to have attacked with both weapons on a charge in 611. So Belkar probably has two-weapon pounce from the players handbook II. The feat also requires a 15 dex, min. So his dex should be upped to 15+

[Assassin89]

In 613 Belkar attacked Julia with both weapons on a charge, he also appears to have attacked with both weapons on a charge in 611. So Belkar probably has two-weapon pounce from the players handbook II. The feat also requires a 15 dex, min. So his dex should be upped to 15+

I though that was Crystal. Who is the Julia of which you speak?

[Chronos]

That is Crystal. Julia is Roy's little sister, whom we haven't seen in quite a while.


Another point: In the first panel of the current strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0613.html), Crystal says that she "wanted to get at least one more assassin level before--". This suggests that it's possible for her to get two more assassin levels, meaning that she's at most 8th level assassin. And we already know that she's level-locked to Haley. But the assassin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm) class can be entered after only 5 levels of a base class, meaning that an 8th-level assassin who entered the class as quickly as possible would have a total character level of only 13. This leads to one of three possibilities:
1: Crystal took more base class levels (presumably rogue) than she needed to. This seems unlikely, since it's several times been mentioned that she's bad at everything roguish except for killing people, and there's very little you'd gain from the 6th level of rogue, anyway, if you're planning on prestiging out.
2: She has at least one level of some other prestige class. This also seems unlikely, since the only other core prestige class useful for a rogue-type is shadowdancer, which gives you even less than rogue 6 as an assassin. It could be a non-core PrC, except that the Giant only very rarely uses non-core material in the comic.
3. Haley and Crystal are both only 13th level. This too seems unlikely, since Haley was probably getting more experience than Belkar in Azure City (commanding a resistance movement is probably worth plenty of XP), and there's no evidence that she's been drained.

Now, admittedly, none of these have been definitively ruled out, but it still seems a bit funny. This is definitely something to watch.

[Grey Watcher]

1: Crystal took more base class levels (presumably rogue) than she needed to. This seems unlikely, since it's several times been mentioned that she's bad at everything roguish except for killing people, and there's very little you'd gain from the 6th level of rogue, anyway, if you're planning on prestiging out.

Actually, this might very well be the case. Was it ever definitely stated that she's a Rogue/Assassin? She might be a Rogue/Fighter/Assassin, or even just a Fighter/Assassin (though the former is more likely, given the skill requirements of the Assassin class). She might've taken a few levels in Fighter for better BAB and a bonus feat to spend on Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Funky Sword). And a multiclass to a class that's light on skill points would be very consistent with her being bad at all things Roguish save murder.

And yeah, you seem to be right about Crystal having no more than 8 levels of Assassin....

[Chronos]

OK, she could have mixed in some fighter, but it's still pretty easy to go fighter 1/rogue 4/assassin or fighter 2/rogue 3/assassin (not necessarily in that order). Even if she has an Int of 3, that'd still leave her enough skill points to meet the Hide and Move Silently requirements.

[vrellum]

I though that was Crystal. Who is the Julia of which you speak?

Whoops, sorry. Yes, it's Crystal, not Julia.

Still the points about two-weapon pounce and dex 15+ still stand.

[Wrecan]

In 613 Belkar attacked Julia with both weapons on a charge
No, he didn't. He had both weapons bared, but only one connects, and the other one doesn't even have a "miss" or "whoosh" to indicate Belkar attacked with it.

[Greg]

No, he didn't. He had both weapons bared, but only one connects, and the other one doesn't even have a "miss" or "whoosh" to indicate Belkar attacked with it.
In the next panel, Crystal has a wound above her eye.

[Assassin89]

Well if Crystal does have any level in Fighter she is supporting the dumb fighter stereotype, just like Thog.

[hamishspence]

Sabines the only other character I remember with natural flight- all the other scenes were via magical flight- does the Light-Only weight limit exist for that?

Or it could just be ignoring weight limits for Rule of Plot.

[amanamana]

Just want to say something, although I did not know if it was already pointed out.
Everyone was trying to explain Haley's SA in 604 with lots of theories about some high-level feats or that fog being some kind of illusion she disbelieved, cause a real fog would prevent her from SA with the concealment granted at more then 5 feet. But who said she was not adjacent with those 3 guild members? She surprised then, thus making AoO's impossible. That means she could be adjacent to them without suffer AoO's for the ranged attack.
If they were 5 feet away from the stairs, she would just need to make a five feet step and full attacked them.
Someone was pointing Occam before... that's way more simple than those obscure feats or illusions.:smallsmile:

Took me long after that strip to write this because I've never followed this thread.:smalltongue:

[amanamana]

Yay! Just turned a halfling! That HAD to happen in the Geekery Thread!:smallbiggrin:

[RMS Oceanic]

Just want to say something, although I did not know if it was already pointed out.
Everyone was trying to explain Haley's SA in 604 with lots of theories about some high-level feats or that fog being some kind of illusion she disbelieved, cause a real fog would prevent her from SA with the concealment granted at more then 5 feet. But who said she was not adjacent with those 3 guild members? She surprised then, thus making AoO's impossible. That means she could be adjacent to them without suffer AoO's for the ranged attack.
If they were 5 feet away from the stairs, she would just need to make a five feet step and full attacked them.
Someone was pointing Occam before... that's way more simple than those obscure feats or illusions.:smallsmile:

Took me long after that strip to write this because I've never followed this thread.:smalltongue:

We accept that she was standing next to them. The problem is those fog spells grant concealment even if you're standing next to them.

[lord_khaine]

We accept that she was standing next to them. The problem is those fog spells grant concealment even if you're standing next to them.

we did talk about this before, but you can read Obscuring mist to not do so.

[AKA_Bait]

OK, she could have mixed in some fighter, but it's still pretty easy to go fighter 1/rogue 4/assassin or fighter 2/rogue 3/assassin (not necessarily in that order). Even if she has an Int of 3, that'd still leave her enough skill points to meet the Hide and Move Silently requirements.

Perhaps another one of the things she's bad at is optimization?