tuckers kobolds

[Kylarra]

"Men, today we make a stand! This is the kobold cave of horrors that we had to flee those years ago when we lost Gregory, Pelor rest his soul, but now we have gained experince, we have learned from our mistakes, and I believe that we can defeat those little draconian dogs, and teach them the true ingenuity of humanity! ...and Elfdom, and Dwarves... We shall show them why they should have not burned and raided the town of Maribell. Wizard Zorander, do you have the fifteen million gallons of alchemist's fire? Please, shape the earth into a funnel to thier warren enterance. We are having a barbeque."

This made me giggle.

[Hurlbut]

This made me giggle.

admittedly I did too.

[Lycanthromancer]

You are ignoring the point. Traps have listed values for them. Granted, they are extremely high, but it's still a price. By giving the kobolds infinite amounts of traps, including the suggested poison, which, for the cheapest poison, is still 75 GP (or "more than a level 1 expert will see in a few years") you aren't facing kobolds. You are facing a bunch of traps that just happen to have kobolds in the area that are meaningless.

Buying the full spellcasting services of a level 1 sorcerer costs 55 gp per day (5 gp per cantrip, and 10 gp per 1st level spell); are you telling me that they have to have the gold ready to get their casters to defend their own homes?

Those prices are for hiring un/skilled people to do the labor for you. Digging a hole and shoving a few sharpened sticks in the bottom is easy for creatures that do that kind of thing as a matter of course anyway, and yet you're suggesting that the kobolds have to be incredibly rich (ie, they must have 1800 gp in spare cash lying around) to dig themselves a hole.

That's kind of absurd.

Likewise, finding a patch of brown mold that you scrape off the wall, grinding toxic mushrooms into powder, feeding bugs to poisonous frogs in cages, or spending hundreds of man kobold-hours scavenging for wood and other supplies effectively costs nothing, since the kobolds are doing it themselves, and are willing to do so for their own mutually-assured survival.

I don't see what's so absurd about that.

Here's my point: If I gave a fighter 1 a Ring of Lots of Wishes Not Constrained By Casting Time, EXP Cost, or the Listed Rules for the Wish Spell and he killed a party of level 10 adventurers, would that prove that an intelligent fighter could win, or that he won because he was given a lot of money? The money, obviously.

If he made the ring himself, then yes, it is his win, especially if he used the wishes he got cleverly.

Kobolds make traps. It's in their fluff. It's in their mechanics. They can make very dangerous traps from simple things such as holes in the ground, pieces of wood, and rocks (all of which are, as even you suggested, grossly overpriced), which they then make more so by keeping their hands in things.

They're justified (mechanically and fluff-wise) in coming up with any and all traps that they're physically capable of setting up (which is quite a lot, with a bit of ingenuity, and they're by no means short on ingenuity).

That may seem out there. But think about it: The Kobold's are getting played as having free access to traps (which by the DMG prices are absurdly priced),

They're holes. With sharpened sticks. I could do that myself in a weekend or less, with a shovel, knife, and some firewood.

no time required to build the traps,

Potential years, decades, or even centuries of living in a place is "no time required"?

infinite access to poisons which cost more than they should have by their level,

I found a black widow spider the other day. Easy enough to capture (had I wanted to), and nearly as easy to breed. I imagine that kobolds would have just as easy a time of it. Collect a few dozen and grind them up. Woo. Poison. Finding a batch of toxic mushrooms or a pond full of poison-skinned frogs wouldn't be difficult, if they're around to find. Heck, here's a list of common household plants that are considered deadly poisonous to most animals by the American Humane Society, and they don't require any special processing. Just grind them to a paste, put them on something sharp, and you're done.

I'm looking at three things when it comes to what the Tucker's Kobolds should be doing in my campaign: 1. Is the situation CR-appropriate for my mid-level PCs? 2. Is the trap in question within the abilities of devious-minded little xenophobes with access to tools (both crafted and purloined), low-level magic that can be cast on the spot, and plenty of time? 3. Can the trap be sprung at minimal risk to the kobolds themselves, or is the damage done to the kobolds worth what it offers in the way of benefits?

If the answer is yes, there's no reason not to use them, either on a conceptual or mechanical level (assuming you make it fun, or at least interesting, for the players).

infinite amounts of alchemical supplies,

Craft checks are well within reasonable levels for low-level experts with sorcerers to Aid Another, and they can (and likely will) stock up between uses. They make it a habit to pilfer from surrounding settlements, and are just as able to procure requisite ingredients as any other town of 400+ people.

the ability to always know where the party is

Hundreds of eyes come in handy.

(even when they rope trick after killing all the kobold guards in an area so there was no line of sight to them),

Just because you killed the ones you saw doesn't mean you killed them all.

absurdly complicated warrens,

They're kobolds; it's what they do.

and infinite reinforcements

Not infinite. Just lots. And lots that tend to be hard to get close to and kill due to their skirmishing tactics and use of terrain.

despite the fact they only have one single entrance to their main warren which is not only hidden too well to ever be spotted by the adventurers but also can somehow transport infinite kobolds despite the fact it's only the width and height for one.

I don't believe anybody said they were restricted to one entrance/exit. In fact, it would behoove them to play like the Gummi Bears and have dozens of exits camouflaged and hidden around their warren's surroundings, Gummi roller-coasters notwithstanding.

...You've watched The Gummi Bears...right?

You aren't fighting Kobolds; you're fighting a DM Fiat cave filled with kobolds who supposedly "built" these traps. At the very least, you are fighting a bunch of level 1 kobolds with level 5 or higher wealth, which doesn't prove kobolds are being played "intelligently" so much as they are being played as "filthy rich."

They have the time. They have access to the resources. I don't see why not, especially since NPCs aren't limited by PC wealth, and it's all via cleverness and hard work.

1800 gp for a hole in the ground is suspiciously absurd, isn't it? I could do that myself in a weekend; doesn't mean I'm rich.

[Starbuck_II]

They have the time. They have access to the resources. I don't see why not, especially since NPCs aren't limited by PC wealth, and it's all via cleverness and hard work.

1800 gp for a hole in the ground is suspiciously absurd, isn't it? I could do that myself in a weekend; doesn't mean I'm rich.

No, the 180% mark up is for the good hiding job of the trap. I am curiuous how a rogue disables a pit trap. Does the earth return to it? Is it filled now?

[Hurlbut]

No, the 180% mark up is for the good hiding job of the trap. I am curiuous how a rogue disables a pit trap. Does the earth return to it? Is it filled now?

Probably disabled the coverage that hide the pit trap.

[Bayar]

WHat he's asking is that is it really feasible for kobolds to spend so much of their time and effort and space and resources to mine and trap their lairs like this? Resources spent here are resources not spent on other areas...like music, art, research and develop (magic or otherwise), martial training, recreation, etc.

Is this kobold really a society that can function and flourish, doing all it needs to do to be able to stop adventurers? And if it can, aren't there better ways, since most other races survive without resorting to this (like halfling and gnomes)

Kobold fluff: They consider trapmaking an art and try to out doeach other with more elaborate and deadly traps.

Umm, they each have assigned a work space ? Miners ? Supervisors ? Priests of Kurtulmak ? Arcanists ? Expert trapsmiths ? Warriors ? Dire weasel mounted cavalry ?

Yes, they flourish by trying to be inconspicuous, trying to not bring attention to themselves, being glad to be the underdog because their enemies will underestimate them.

Oh, and for those guys that say kobolds dont have enough money...who do you think provided dragons with hordes upon hordes of gold ? Yes, that is right, Kobolds. Hell, Races of the Dragon says that kobolds are filthy rich.

Egyptians were wealthy...no one made tombs except the rich. Poor people were slaves and made into mummies.

I dont know what part of that phrase to correct first.

First, they were not slaves. Slaves are not fed meat and bread and wine. Slaves dont get the best medical plan at the time. Would someone bother doing brain surgery on a slave to save their life from a tumor ? Nope. but they did to a piramid worker.

Second, those poor people probably didnt have enough money for mummification.

[Tiktakkat]

PCs can't compete with all natural drainage system. You'd need a really cohesive effort to even threaten it, let along make fast enough progress to make it really matter. How many Decanters are we talking about?

As many as there are pit traps. Remember, we are throwing any concept of wealth limits out of the window with this.

It's not really an unreasonable assumption. A molotov cocktail is fairly unreliable, but does 2d6 damage as a ranged touch attack and costs 1sp. If you're producing your own oil with appropriate craft skills, you're down to 3cp. If you give the tribe as a whole any reasonable amount of money, they can have an effectively infinite supply of the stuff.

So the raw materials appear out of nowhere?

Great. That stops... one attack. Yay.

One attack per bolt of cloth you have.

You know, I'm really not sure what your point is supposed to be. What's got your hackles up about this whole thing?

My hackles are fine, thanks.
Why are you so defensive?

"Balanced Encounters" have nothing to do with survival.

But they have a whole lot to do with game enjoyment.
You can also throw a great wyrm red dragon against a mid-level party.

Humans: Most of their work goes towards their elevated dietary needs.

Which they manage to fulfill by advanced farming techniques that the primitive rock eating kobolds have never learned.

Sturdy walls are all the traps they want as their livestock is more likely to trigger a trap than a random predator, especially as pastures (for the stealing of cows) tend to be wide-open spaces, not bottle-neck corridors. But hey, if a human convinces ~10 kobolds to work for free on their house, I'm sure it'll be the most lethal house on the block.

They do not need kobolds to do the labor, they have all those humans hanging around capable of doing the work. Remember, the kobolds are off turning their lairs into death traps, the humans are perfectly safe until the kobolds finish.

Orc-Dwarven wars include troops. Troops assaulted a keep who's size is convenient for them (hence their desire to take it over), and I'm willing to bet a pretty penny than the death-toll of these invasions amount to more than a few hundreds. It wasn't a flawless victory. A kobold warren can be annihilated, but it might need more than 6 people to do.

So just hire 10,000 crazed gnome mercenaries.
PCs for the win!

And the elves can trap the woods as much as they want, go ahead. Just realize they'll also be killing more animals than kobolds and that's not exactly what they set out to do.

No, these traps only trigger for kobold sized critters. Innocent four legged woodlands beasts are perfectly safe. The kobolds will have to go around on all fours, making them easy targets for the ever alert guards who are everywhere.

[Radiun]

So just hire 10,000 crazed gnome mercenaries.
PCs for the win!

Yes, you could overwhelm the Kobold's home.
but throw in some burrowers to tunnel into their true home, and realize it won't likely be over in a day.

No, these traps only trigger for kobold sized critters. Innocent four legged woodlands beasts are perfectly safe. The kobolds will have to go around on all fours, making them easy targets for the ever alert guards who are everywhere.

Pray tell, how do you set a trap that triggers based on species?

[Drakyn]

I really did mean it when I said earlier that I'd like to see Tucker's Hobgoblins. Now I want to see Tucker's Elves and Tucker's Dwarves too. Tucker's kobolds have been taken as far as they can go sanity-wise, pretty much, and why not put some of the effort that's going into making them into Batman into expanding the strategic aspect of Tucker into other opponents? New, uncharted waters and all that. Tuckerize the world!

[Bayar]

As many as there are pit traps. Remember, we are throwing any concept of wealth limits out of the window with this.

No, adventurers dont have need for an infinite number of Decanters of Endless water for any normal adventure. Kobolds need traps to defend their lair. See the discrepancy ?

So the raw materials appear out of nowhere?

Miners. Smelters. Foragers. Thieves. Need I continue ?

One attack per bolt of cloth you have.

You have RAW for this ? Or is this one of your houserules ?

But they have a whole lot to do with game enjoyment.
You can also throw a great wyrm red dragon against a mid-level party.

Well, if adventurers decide that indeed, they want to raid a kobold lair considered "The den of Horrors", the DM needs to adjust the adventure accordingly. And the DM probably isnt enjoying when everyone else says "These monsters suck, I can one shot anyone at level 8 herp derp We are awesome your monsters suck".

Which they manage to fulfill by advanced farming techniques that the primitive rock eating kobolds have never learned.

You are again assuming that kobolds are INT dumping idiots. Kobolds CAN eat rocks. They just do that when there is nothing else to eat. They can farm mushrooms or hunt for gnomes outside thank you very much.

They do not need kobolds to do the labor, they have all those humans hanging around capable of doing the work. Remember, the kobolds are off turning their lairs into death traps, the humans are perfectly safe until the kobolds finish.

Lol, have you read the section dealing with kobolds laying siege ? Imagine about 4-5 warrens of kobolds, simply launching themselves on a suicide run against the enemy. Their primary advantage is numbers and soon enough they overwhelm the besieged. Of course, this only happens when they are running low on stuff to mine or they have an overpopulation and need new territories. And they mostly target gnomish lands (if there are no gnomish lands available, they just siege anything that would look weak enough).

So just hire 10,000 crazed gnome mercenaries.
PCs for the win!

God, I love that Skewer of Gnomes spear. Kobold Relic weapon. Oh, and I'd like to see a gnomish crusade against kobolds. It'd be like the Black Crusades of Chaos. Meaning they would be massive failures.

No, these traps only trigger for kobold sized critters. Innocent four legged woodlands beasts are perfectly safe. The kobolds will have to go around on all fours, making them easy targets for the ever alert guards who are everywhere.

This is not Tolkienesque, this is Tuckeresque. Elves are not omnipresent in woods. Woods are big. But whatever, lets say they are. Traps that trigger only for kobolds, huh ? Because they are chopping down their trees ? Fair 'nuff. Are they for small humanoids or tiny humanoids ? Kobolds count as both when the situation is to their advantage. Oh, and I guess the elves trap their woodlands with orc traps too, because you know, they are mortal enemies and orcs pose far more threat than kobolds do.



See ? You are not the only one to have bigass posts full of quotes.

I really did mean it when I said earlier that I'd like to see Tucker's Hobgoblins. Now I want to see Tucker's Elves and Tucker's Dwarves too. Tucker's kobolds have been taken as far as they can go sanity-wise, pretty much, and why not put some of the effort that's going into making them into Batman into expanding the strategic aspect of Tucker into other opponents? New, uncharted waters and all that. Tuckerize the world!

Batman wizard thread led to flames. The thread that was intended to do the same thing, only with monks led to grimdark flamewar. Not a good idea to try to emulate them with Tuckers X.

[Radiun]

Tucker's Dwarves too.

They've dug out the ground around the entrance and the walls of their fortress, the the point of making it impassable, The entrance usually barred by a drawbridge. They can lower the bridge unto an 'island' that they have similarly channeled around. There is another bridge leading from that island to the mainland. The bridges are never both lowered at once. Once a creature gets to the island, the bridge to the mainland is raised before their entrance is lowered. Creatures may pass underneath the bridges, but a flood of magma is sure to chase them.

[EleventhHour]

~TDs~

Not to mention thier expert stoneworkers/craftsmen. They could probably build in the piles of pressure plates, lines of poisoned crossbows, flame traps, porticullis...

Tuckers Humans is already done. We excell at killing each other.

[SmartAlec]

Now I want to see Tucker's Elves and Tucker's Dwarves too.

I have a feeling Tucker's Elves would fight like Robin Hood's Merrie Men; camoflauged treetop huts hidden deep in the forest, archer sniping positions, groups of dangerous animals empathied into attacking the party, druids instead of sorcerors, rangers setting false trails to be followed into ambushes, tangle traps, nooses to catch feet and swing someone up into the trees, the classic pit traps, etc etc.

You'd have to burn down the forest to get them, really.

[Bayar]

I have a feeling Tucker's Elves would fight like Robin Hood's Merrie Men; camoflauged treetop huts hidden deep in the forest, archer sniping positions, groups of dangerous animals empathied into attacking the party, druids instead of sorcerors, rangers setting false trails to be followed into ambushes, tangle traps, nooses to catch feet and swing someone up into the trees, the classic pit traps, etc etc.

You'd have to burn down the forest to get them, really.

Well, I am sure that the elven druids have developed ways to give all the forest a fire resistance 6 or something.

[Lycanthromancer]

Don't forget the vorpal bunnies.

You'd have to burn down the forest to get them, really.

There are some who call me...Tim?

[shadow_archmagi]

Tucker's Dwarves?

Dwarf Fortress is a perfect example of this. The players have designed some very, very elaborate traps. (I believe one system involved an elaborate system of pumps and floodgates, so that basically they had a network of magma-filled pipes 100 ft up that they could use to pour lava on any tile on the map. Invaders were sad.)

AND JUST WHERE ARE THEY GETTING THE INFINITE RAW MATERIALS FROM?

I think it's fairly safe to assume that if one can BUY 30 molotovs for the price of a single pig, molotov materials are not exactly rare or complicated.

[Starbuck_II]

This is not Tolkienesque, this is Tuckeresque. Elves are not omnipresent in woods. Woods are big. But whatever, lets say they are. Traps that trigger only for kobolds, huh ? Because they are chopping down their trees ? Fair 'nuff. Are they for small humanoids or tiny humanoids ? Kobolds count as both when the situation is to their advantage. Oh, and I guess the elves trap their woodlands with orc traps too, because you know, they are mortal enemies and orcs pose far more threat than kobolds do.

.

No, only in a web enhancement did they get that ability to count as tiny. What books are you building these Kobolds as?

[Tiktakkat]

Yes, you could overwhelm the Kobold's home.
but throw in some burrowers to tunnel into their true home, and realize it won't likely be over in a day.

So?
The point is winning; no time limit was mentioned.

Pray tell, how do you set a trap that triggers based on species?

Alarm spell trigger.
Elves are known for their magic, and so forth.

No, adventurers dont have need for an infinite number of Decanters of Endless water for any normal adventure. Kobolds need traps to defend their lair. See the discrepancy ?

They decanters are borrowed from the local aqueducts and irrigation systems.
No more discrepancy.

Miners. Smelters. Foragers. Thieves. Need I continue ?

Well, yes you do.
All of the kobolds are building traps, remember?
There are none left to mine, smelt, forage, or thieve.

You have RAW for this ? Or is this one of your houserules ?

Yep.
Cloth has a hardness and hit points, and constitutes a barrier.
There is no blow through damage in D&D.

Well, if adventurers decide that indeed, they want to raid a kobold lair considered "The den of Horrors", the DM needs to adjust the adventure accordingly. And the DM probably isnt enjoying when everyone else says "These monsters suck, I can one shot anyone at level 8 herp derp We are awesome your monsters suck".

Except they are not billed as a den of horrors, they are just billed as part of another dungeon.
Once you up the billing, the kobolds lose the element of surprise.

You are again assuming that kobolds are INT dumping idiots. Kobolds CAN eat rocks. They just do that when there is nothing else to eat. They can farm mushrooms or hunt for gnomes outside thank you very much.

Actually, they cannot.
Again, you said they are all building traps and super-drainage systems.

Lol, have you read the section dealing with kobolds laying siege ? Imagine about 4-5 warrens of kobolds, simply launching themselves on a suicide run against the enemy. Their primary advantage is numbers and soon enough they overwhelm the besieged. Of course, this only happens when they are running low on stuff to mine or they have an overpopulation and need new territories. And they mostly target gnomish lands (if there are no gnomish lands available, they just siege anything that would look weak enough).

Suicide runs mean they all die.
When the kobolds are all dead, the PCs can just walk in and claim their empty lair.

God, I love that Skewer of Gnomes spear. Kobold Relic weapon. Oh, and I'd like to see a gnomish crusade against kobolds. It'd be like the Black Crusades of Chaos. Meaning they would be massive failures.

Gnomes do not get relics of their own?

Kobolds are immune to gnomish mercenaries? Or are they just immune to being beaten at all?

This is not Tolkienesque, this is Tuckeresque. Elves are not omnipresent in woods. Woods are big. But whatever, lets say they are. Traps that trigger only for kobolds, huh ? Because they are chopping down their trees ? Fair 'nuff. Are they for small humanoids or tiny humanoids ? Kobolds count as both when the situation is to their advantage. Oh, and I guess the elves trap their woodlands with orc traps too, because you know, they are mortal enemies and orcs pose far more threat than kobolds do.

Of course the elves are omnipresent in their woods, just as the kobolds face no threats or have any requirements other than dealing with PCs.
Yes, the elves do have orc traps too. As I noted, the elves have been there hundreds of years. They have had tons of time to prepare for anything.

And indeed, this is Tuckeresque. That is the whole point. Once you make the decision to go down that path it will inevitably spread to every race as a fan decides to make them just that much better because he can.

[Kallisti]

And indeed, this is Tuckeresque. That is the whole point. Once you make the decision to go down that path it will inevitably spread to every race as a fan decides to make them just that much better because he can.

...? Wut?

We're working from the assumption that there is a DM here, planning an encounter, wanting to challenge his PCs, etc. "Inevitably spread to every race as a fan decides to make them just that much better because he can?" When I DM, I make my own decisions about which races do what. Nobody's going to Tuckerize my dwarves. Sure, you're right, it'd be possible to Tuckerize every race. By all means, make a thread for Tucker's Elves, Tucker's Dwarves, Tucker's Half-drow, whatever races you feel like Tuckerizing. Just remember that it has no real relevance to the actual argument in this thread.


A lot of you people seem to be missing the point. People keep saying "If you give them anything other than the basics they aren't the Tucker kobolds any more." People keep arguing about where the kobolds get their supplies and whether they have people with magic or craft skills. You know what? Screw that. It says right in the original story that the point wasn't to let the DM say "Hahaha lolz you guys lost to kobolds you suck," it was to shake things up a little. He even recommended using higher-level, nastier monsters. True, a bunch of first-level kobolds would have a lot of trouble getting things like alchemist's fire. But how about higher-level kobolds? Tucker's Doppelgangers? Tucker's Great Wyrm Red Dragons, for the epic party? Tucker's kobolds are largely irrelevant compare to Tucker's encounters. So can we please shift the focus of this thread from "Where do kobolds get supplies and gold? Where do they get lizard power? How should they divide their labor to get the best ratio of supply gathering and construction? Are they alone in their paranoia? Etc?" to something a little more constructive? Like the question of whether it's fair for a DM to run a Tucker encounter. That's good. That's progress. So is it fair? How could you run a Tucker encounter that didn't devolve into a DM fiat grudge monster?

That's my two coppers. Take them as you will.

[Starbuck_II]

A lot of you people seem to be missing the point. People keep saying "If you give them anything other than the basics they aren't the Tucker kobolds any more." People keep arguing about where the kobolds get their supplies and whether they have people with magic or craft skills. You know what? Screw that. It says right in the original story that the point wasn't to let the DM say "Hahaha lolz you guys lost to kobolds you suck," it was to shake things up a little.

No, the point is that a few traps make a ordinarily weak monster (which they were in 2nd edition: no levels and all) to be a fearsome worry in numbers.

Remember: these guys all have 1-4 hps.

Some of the suggestions hear would have obliterated tucker's kobolds. The players panicked and that panic almost killed them.

The idea was it was unexpected. If every Kobold becomes Tucker's then you lose the fear that it was ther kobolds. It becomes DM fiat of how they could afford that much.

So can we please shift the focus of this thread from "Where do kobolds get supplies and gold? Where do they get lizard power? How should they divide their labor to get the best ratio of supply gathering and construction? Are they alone in their paranoia? Etc?" to something a little more constructive?

No, I think we should return to Tucker's addons: http://www.tuckerskobolds.com/

He gave them:
Extra Cleverness (more than they should have)
murder holes (a building feature) in ceiling and wall: shot stuff and threw stuff at them.
They can lock door by a switch
Set corridors on fire (oil?)
Alchemist fire
small Tunnels throughout area for better movement.

That was it. No pit traps (the acid baths weren't the kobolds). Nothing expensive besides alchemist fire.

First, Tucker's group has some issues: no one had fire resistance. No one had invisibility? I mean they were killing powerful demons.

So first issue: They were not well prepared for minor energy damage (fire doesn't deal that much, yet they feared it), they had blaster mages, etc.

[Bayar]

No, only in a web enhancement did they get that ability to count as tiny. What books are you building these Kobolds as?

It is a web enhancement for an official book. It has only kobold related stuff. It is valid to use it.

They decanters are borrowed from the local aqueducts and irrigation systems.
No more discrepancy.

Yes, and they borrowed the decanters to flood the kobolds. WHY ? Give me a good reason for a party of adventurers to get a crazzap of decanters just to flood the kobold lair. Until it is a viable IN GAME justification, I label this as bullcrap.

Well, yes you do.
All of the kobolds are building traps, remember?
There are none left to mine, smelt, forage, or thieve.

Who said that they all build traps ? All those traps were build in time. Years, decades, centuries. That is like saying that every human started working on the stronghold's walls and stopped farming/mining/lumberjacking/weaving/whatever. Implying that every kobold only builds traps and doesnt do anything else: you clearly underestimate the inteligence and wisdom of these creatures.

Yep.
Cloth has a hardness and hit points, and constitutes a barrier.
There is no blow through damage in D&D.

Once the unseen servant dies, what then ? Oh, and how much cloth can you put on an unseen servant ? How much can he carry ?

Actually, they cannot.
Again, you said they are all building traps and super-drainage systems.

See above. They can and will because they are not idiots.

Suicide runs mean they all die.
When the kobolds are all dead, the PCs can just walk in and claim their empty lair.

****tons of kobolds overwhelm strongholds and fortresses. A party of adventurers will be swarmed preety fast. If they didnt die in the pit trap.

Gnomes do not get relics of their own?

Kobolds are immune to gnomish mercenaries? Or are they just immune to being beaten at all?

No. Gnomes just suck. Except Whisper Gnomes.

Of course the elves are omnipresent in their woods, just as the kobolds face no threats or have any requirements other than dealing with PCs.
Yes, the elves do have orc traps too. As I noted, the elves have been there hundreds of years. They have had tons of time to prepare for anything.

And indeed, this is Tuckeresque. That is the whole point. Once you make the decision to go down that path it will inevitably spread to every race as a fan decides to make them just that much better because he can.

Elves live for a long time. ok, they can make traps of their own. And they can make orcish traps. Now, should I remind you that if they only make traps, they wont have food ? Because they only build traps. For an eternity. Which they wont because elves are not idiots (but they still suck).

Heh, travelling in a Tuckeresque setting would be like World of Horrors. Enter the wrong tavern and the ceiling collapses on you. Go to the outhouse and die from the contact poison on the toilet seat. Buy a horse and it explodes. Wonder how things can live in that world.

[Foryn Gilnith]

It is a web enhancement for an official book. It has only kobold related stuff. It is valid to use it.

That isn't a universally accepted premise. Web enhancements are often distrusted.

Stereotypical kobolds are subhuman creatures living in the earth to be used only as cannon fodder. Crank up the reality a little bit and you get a race living in well-defended and trapped tunnels, with an organized magic system. Crank up the reality a little bit more and you get Tucker's Kobolds. Crank up the reality a little bit more and you realize that between fast maturation, the ability to subsist on any organic matter, and perpetual and universal racial unity and pride; kobolds are overpowered.

Instant racial unity? Universal confidence? Hunger as a non-issue? A childhood a third of the length of a human's and a longer lifespan? Massively quick breeding? Wizards went a little overboard buffing the "puny" kobolds. Their psychology is unrealistic, and their physiology more so (but they tend to get off easy on the "physiology" point due to the prevalence of monsters). If you give them the benefits of civilization on top of their monster powers, of course they can overpower the outmoded little gnomes/humans/whatever.

[Frosty]

It is unlikely for a random kobold warren to have been there for decades and centuries. If it has been ther efor that long, it has become a kobold EMPIRE, which is definitely of higher CR.

[Xey42]

Slight thread detail, I read a post earlier today by someone who said something about breeding spider's for poison. Doesn't work since spiders are vicious cannibals who require a large amount of space and solitude to survive. Why we don't breed them now for their silk (they also don't make very much, points aside), which is considerably better than silk as it would have us all walking around in nearly indestructible, bulletproof T-shirts. (slight exaggeration)

sorry, back on track

Perhaps stick to poisonous frogs and mushrooms :P Given that bullfrogs can lay up to 20000 eggs in a clutch that'll mature in a year, with the fantasy equivalent, the warren doesn't have to have been around for decades to have a huge supply of poison..

Hey! they could use all that extra water from the water decanters every body has been talking about to raise the tadpoles!

[Starbuck_II]

Perhaps stick to poisonous frogs and mushrooms :P Given that bullfrogs can lay up to 20000 eggs in a clutch that'll mature in a year, with the fantasy equivalent, the warren doesn't have to have been around for decades to have a huge supply of poison..

Hey! they could use all that extra water from the water decanters every body has been talking about to raise the tadpoles!

Using bullfrogs as tools will upset Wastri: the hopping Prophet, a god of amphibians and humans. Since you are likely using this poison to kill humans; he will definately not like you doing this. So I'd avoid frogs for poison plan unless the kobolds want divine wrath.

[Tyndmyr]

Sure, but we're talking about a warren, not a country being financed by the royal inventory.

We're also talking about something far less impressive of a construction project than a pyramid. A warren is how they live....The idea that they protect themselves with pit traps isn't really that out there.

Hell, small, primitive tribes manage to do it, why couldn't kobolds, who are decently bright, and have the advantage of a natural knack for sorcerery?

Now, you're going to see certain types of traps. Deadfalls, pit traps, primitive poisons, rigged up non-resetting crossbow, that sort of thing, not elaborate moving wall sorts of traps, but you CAN make a place dangerous by cramming a ton of inexpensive traps into a small area. Even if each isn't that dangerous on it's own, the quantity makes all sorts of things tricky for an unprepared newcomer.

[Lycanthromancer]

We're also talking about something far less impressive of a construction project than a pyramid. A warren is how they live....The idea that they protect themselves with pit traps isn't really that out there.

Hell, small, primitive tribes manage to do it, why couldn't kobolds, who are decently bright, and have the advantage of a natural knack for sorcerery?

Now, you're going to see certain types of traps. Deadfalls, pit traps, primitive poisons, rigged up non-resetting crossbow, that sort of thing, not elaborate moving wall sorts of traps, but you CAN make a place dangerous by cramming a ton of inexpensive traps into a small area. Even if each isn't that dangerous on it's own, the quantity makes all sorts of things tricky for an unprepared newcomer.

Not to mention synergy amongst traps. Portcullis trap (to prevent escape) + archers (to inflict damage and keep the PCs distracted) + marbles & slope trap (to restrict mobility and pull PCs downhill) + greased bridge (same as the marbles) + pit trap with spikes (as the coup de grace). That's a lot to take in all at once, and they all work toward one common goal: get the PCs in the pit trap.

Similar things can be done with caltrops combined with some moving component (a rolling boulder, acidic gas clouds, a flooding hallway), and some way to restrict or prevent flight (such as narrow and/or low hallways, a powerful natural downdraft, or a dead magic area).

Just as with encounters with creatures, putting two or more different parts together can be considerably more challenging than putting similar creatures of equal CR together.

[Xey42]

Out of curiosity, why stick with bows and crossbows? I'm a bit stuck on the idea of using primitive poisons to kill off PC's with stat damage (which, despite the fear of various amphibian god's wraths, is possible on many fronts). Why not use blowguns and poisoned tipped darts? Primitive tribesmen use it to great effect, and it would make the openings required to fire through a wall extremely tiny (2 quarter sized holes, one with a cone to aim, the other to see) disguised as part of a wall.

Eliminates effective means of retaliation as they have total cover and to jam anything through would require action against the wall itself first to make a hole. Dozens of pin pricks and saves, somebodies going to feel something, and 3 damage from a lucky crossbow is nothing next to 3 con damage from a lucky blow dart. And we haven't even progressed past tribal human technical abilities yet, let alone medieval.

Also note that this is not a tactic that would be devised to counteract any specific PC threat through GM fiat, and seems a completely normal way to defend their home against any variety of intruder.

People seem to forget that we've been killing each other for as long as we've been around, and been awfully good at it too, without the aid of anything technologically fancy. It only makes sense that in a DnD world, which is a million times more dangerous than ours, that something of a match to our intelligence would muster a surprisingly lethal defense against vastly superior forces.

[Raum]

Traps aren't the point of Tucker's Kobolds. It's not "King Kobold's Tomb of Horrors". The original article is about using terrain, tactics, and - most of all - thinking outside the box.

It's a warren of very small tunnels in three dimensions. Murder holes are probably more common than traps (easier to build, won't hurt your tribe, and usable as spy holes), choke points and intersections are common (it's a maze - think of as an ant farm), and tactics rely on mobility, surprise, and hit and runs. Worst of all from an attackers point of view, the kobolds are proficient enough at mining to close or collapse tunnels and even open short new connecting tunnels...so the maze isn't static.

It's not impossible to take them out. It's simply a very costly nightmare. Costing far more than any adventurers could hope to gain from 'mere' kobolds. Hence the original story's 'running the gauntlet' to reach non-kobold infested areas.

[Tiktakkat]

Traps aren't the point of Tucker's Kobolds. It's not "King Kobold's Tomb of Horrors". The original article is about using terrain, tactics, and - most of all - thinking outside the box.

Those same factors should have been just as usable by the PCs.
For whatever reason, the ones in the story did not do so.
And naturally, it invites a response of the tactics that others would use in similar circumstances.

It's not impossible to take them out. It's simply a very costly nightmare. Costing far more than any adventurers could hope to gain from 'mere' kobolds. Hence the original story's 'running the gauntlet' to reach non-kobold infested areas.

By the story, it is obvious that it cost far more to try to evade them.
Not having to run the gauntlet every time is a significant gain.