Racial HD counting towards ECL. What?!

[Jergmo]

Okay, am I the only one that sees something horribly wrong with this? These creatures already have a level adjustment, and on top of that, their racial hit dice counts towards their ECL. For example, a level 1 ogre barbarian would be CR 4, buts it would effectively be a level 7 character.

They have four giant hit dice, which is equal to +1 CR according to improving monsters. So to be fair, shouldn't their ECL actually be 4? That would fit with their challenge rating, and the ogre is no longer crippled.

Agree/disagree/RABBLE RABBLE?

[AstralFire]

Often times their LA and Racial HD are both less than they'd actually be if you were ONLY using Racial HD or ONLY using Level Adjustment to bump up their ECL.

[Krrth]

Okay, am I the only one that sees something horribly wrong with this? These creatures already have a level adjustment, and on top of that, their racial hit dice counts towards their ECL. For example, a level 1 ogre barbarian would be CR 4, buts it would effectively be a level 7 character.

They have four giant hit dice, which is equal to +1 CR according to improving monsters. So to be fair, shouldn't their ECL actually be 4? That would fit with their challenge rating, and the ogre is no longer crippled.

Agree/disagree/RABBLE RABBLE?

Um...if I recall correctly, those Racial HD also give saves, skill points, and feats. That's why they are added.

[Jergmo]

Often times their LA and Racial HD are both less than they'd actually be if you were ONLY using Racial HD or ONLY using Level Adjustment to bump up their ECL.

Er...I'm sorry, what?

Um...if I recall correctly, those Racial HD also give saves, skill points, and feats. That's why they are added.

But racial hit dice are weaker than class levels. They end up getting behind both in class levels and power.

Level 7 character > Level 1 ogre by a long shot.

[Hat-Trick]

I think that Racial Hit Dice should be considered like half of a class level, but that's probably not very balanced, either.

[AstralFire]

If you took away the racial HD and just used the LA, you may find they're more powerful than someone of that normal LA.

[Jergmo]

I think that Racial Hit Dice should be considered like half of a class level, but that's probably not very balanced, either.

Well, that might work. As pointed out, the racial HD give skills/feats/etc. They still end up a level behind, but that might help make up for that.

[quick_comment]

Racial HD are usually pretty good. Outsider and dragon HD have good BAB, all good saves, 8+int skill points and usually come with some very nice special abilities.

[Jergmo]

Racial HD are usually pretty good. Outsider and dragon HD have good BAB, all good saves, 8+int skill points and usually come with some very nice special abilities.

Well, the improving HD for monsters thing already lists them as being more powerful than the others. A humanoid or giant has +1 CR for every four levels, while an outsider or dragon has +1 for every two.

[Devils_Advocate]

I posted on this just recently, as it happens.

An ogre built as a character has

- rolled, point-bought, or elite array stats modified by the ogre's racial modifiers, instead or an array of 11 11 11 10 10 10 modified by the ogre's ability modifiers,
- wealth appropriate to a character of its ECL, instead of the crap gear that an ogre gets, and
- feats and skills that can be chosen to play to its strengths, instead of the crap feats a MM ogre gets.

Now, that said, a whole bunch of monsters have inappropriate LAs and/or inappropriate CRs.

As I mentioned in another thread recently, the official formulas for CR and ECL work better as rough guidelines than hard-and-fast rules. It would have been nice if they had come out and admitted that and essentially added "Adjust as needed", like they did for magic item pricing.

[Krrth]

Er...I'm sorry, what?



But racial hit dice are weaker than class levels. They end up getting behind both in class levels and power.

Level 7 character > Level 1 ogre by a long shot.

Not as much as you might think. Remember, the extra stats and BaB are also included.

Add in the large size for ogres (and the reach that gives them)....not to mention the subtype also gives them an edge. Charm person doesn't work.

That 26 strength doesn't help matters either.

[Jergmo]

Alright, well, what about creatures with racial hit dice that want to play spellcasters instead of a fighter or something? They end up being crap due to being a number of caster levels behind, and yes, they could take Practiced Spellcaster to bump it up, but that won't give them higher spells.

[Krrth]

Alright, well, what about creatures with racial hit dice that want to play spellcasters instead of a fighter or something? They end up being crap.

Depends on what they play. There are several races that specifically state that the racial levels stack with similar class levels. Like the Rakshasa. level adjustment seven, and counts as a seventh level sorcerer as well.

[Starbuck_II]

Not as much as you might think. Remember, the extra stats and BaB are also included.

Add in the large size for ogres (and the reach that gives them)....not to mention the subtype also gives them an edge. Charm person doesn't work.

That 26 strength doesn't help matters either.

You mean type..right?

[Jergmo]

Depends on what they play. There are several races that specifically state that the racial levels stack with similar class levels. Like the Rakshasa. level adjustment seven, and counts as a seventh level sorcerer as well.

Yes, but I'm not talking about Rakshasa's. What if an ogre wanted to be a druid, or something? Level 7 druids vs. level 1 druid? Yeah...

[Artanis]

Yes, but I'm not talking about Rakshasa's. What if an ogre wanted to be a druid, or something? Level 7 druids vs. level 1 druid? Yeah...

They're pretty much screwed, which has been known and in large part lamented for as long as I can remember.

[Jergmo]

They're pretty much screwed, which has been known and in large part lamented for as long as I can remember.

And I want to fix that. It's ridiculous.

[quick_comment]

Alright, well, what about creatures with racial hit dice that want to play spellcasters instead of a fighter or something? They end up being crap due to being a number of caster levels behind, and yes, they could take Practiced Spellcaster to bump it up, but that won't give them higher spells.

Casters with LA and no racial HD are still way weaker than casters with no LA and no racial HD(or bought off LA).

If you allow racial HD to count for half a level, then you get things being a rakshasa at level 11. Sure, its 4 levels behind a sorcerer of the same level, but it also has DR 15/good AND piercing, SR 27, +9 natural armor bonus, +6 con, +6 cha, +other stats and two natural attacks.

At level 20, this character would have 16th level casting, SR 36 and everything listed above.


You also massively overpower lycanthropes

[Krrth]

You mean type..right?

Correct. That's what I get for typing fast...

Yes, but I'm not talking about Rakshasa's. What if an ogre wanted to be a druid, or something? Level 7 druids vs. level 1 druid? Yeah...

...they'd be a pretty crappy caster. That int of 8, wis of 10, and chr of 7 pretty much rules out any of the caster types.


Seriously, casters don't need any more advantages. That's a major reason most monster races don't increase caster levels. The benefits don't make up for the lost caster levels (usually), but adding all the benefits on top of being a full caster?

[Jergmo]

Casters with LA and no racial HD are still way weaker than casters with no LA and no racial HD(or bought off LA).

If you allow racial HD to count for half a level, then you get things being a rakshasa at level 11. Sure, its 4 levels behind a sorcerer of the same level, but it also has DR 15/good AND piercing, SR 27, +9 natural armor bonus, +6 con, +6 cha, +other stats and two natural attacks.

At level 20, this character would have 16th level casting, SR 36 and everything listed above.


You also massively overpower lycanthropes

Again, we're not talking about Rakshasas. They already have caster levels from hit dice. And I'm not talking about racial hit dice towards caster levels, I'm talking about reducing the ECL given by their racial hit dice.

[Jergmo]

Correct. That's what I get for typing fast...





...they'd be a pretty crappy caster. That int of 8, wis of 10, and chr of 7 pretty much rules out any of the caster types.


Seriously, casters don't need any more advantages. That's a major reason most monster races don't increase caster levels. The benefits don't make up for the lost caster levels (usually), but adding all the benefits on top of being a full caster?

Also, that ogre druid wouldn't have 8 int and 10 wis. It'd have whatever it got from rolling or elite array. So, if it had the elite array and put the 15 on wisdom, then it wouldn't have a problem. These creatures not having spellcasters of any kind defies any form of logic. Every intelligent creature has religion.

[Kylarra]

Yes, but I'm not talking about Rakshasa's. What if an ogre wanted to be a druid, or something? Level 7 druids vs. level 1 druid? Yeah...

So you want to take something with decent physical stats, and trying to make them analogous to full casters... why again?

If you're making this decision as a PC you're deliberately choosing suboptimal choices and even then you can go ahead and buy off your LA eventually (under most circumstances), rendering you effectively some sort of fighter/caster multiclass, which should obviously leave you weaker [in terms of spellcasting] than a full caster.

If we're talking about NPCs then read the rules for non-associated class levels.

[Jergmo]

So you want to take something with decent physical stats, and trying to make them analogous to full casters... why again?

If you're making this decision as a PC you're deliberately choosing suboptimal choices and even then you can go ahead and buy off your LA eventually (under most circumstances), rendering you effectively some sort of fighter/caster multiclass, which should obviously leave you weaker [in terms of spellcasting] than a full caster.

If we're talking about NPCs then read the rules for non-associated class levels.

I'm talking about physically powerful creatures having the choice of at least divine spellcasters without being worthless. Because that makes sense.

[Krrth]

Also, that ogre druid wouldn't have 8 int and 10 wis. It'd have whatever it got from rolling or elite array. So, if it had the elite array and put the 15 on wisdom, then it wouldn't have a problem.

Ogres as characters:
+10 Str
-2 Dex
+4 Con
-4 Int
-4 Chr

That's the modifiers for stats. While wis does not get a modifier, that strength more than makes up for it.
Seriously, that's an 18 strength without putting a single point into that stat. Points that can go into the other stats....
With a +5 AC bonus, +3 bab, two feats of your choice, +10 speed, 10 ft reach, proficiency with simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields?

[nysisobli]

when i select monsters, i look at them and then i eyeball what i think they should be. 3.x has some of the worst monster balancing issues i have ever encountered. So you should just ask you self can my party defeat this?

[Kylarra]

I'm talking about physically powerful creatures having the choice of at least divine spellcasters without being worthless. Because that makes sense.

They do? Why not play up your strengths and go with a more combat oriented caster, rather than trying to play as a fullcaster? I mean, you don't take 4 levels in fighter (or barbarian or <insert combat class here>) and then complain that taking the next 16 levels in cleric (or insert caster of choice here) is going to leave you weaker [at spellcasting] than a full caster. That's just silly...

[Jergmo]

Ogres as characters:
+10 Str
-2 Dex
+4 Con
-4 Int
-4 Chr

That's the modifiers for stats. While wis does not get a modifier, that strength more than makes up for it.
Seriously, that's an 18 strength without putting a single point into that stat. Points that can go into the other stats....
With a +5 AC bonus, +3 bab, two feats of your choice, +10 speed, 10 ft reach, proficiency with simple and martial weapons, light and medium armor, and shields?

You...don't seem to get what I'm getting at. Not all ogres should be fighters or barbarians. What sense does that make? Where are their spiritual leaders/etc?

They do? Why not play up your strengths and go with a more combat oriented caster, rather than trying to play as a fullcaster? I mean, you don't take 4 levels in fighter (or barbarian or <insert combat class here>) and then complain that taking the next 16 levels in cleric (or insert caster of choice here) is going to leave you weaker [at spellcasting] than a full caster. That's just silly...

...Read above.

[Kylarra]

You...don't seem to get what I'm getting at. Not all ogres should be fighters or barbarians. What sense does that make? Where are their spiritual leaders/etc?



...Read above.

Er, are we talking NPCs? because if you'd read the source I cited you'd see that adding <= 4 levels of a caster to an ogre will only increase its cr by 2, and thereafter increase on a 1:1 basis.

Now, granted, that will still leave them overall behind any race that is either cr <1 or has casting related to its racial type, but them's the breaks in a warrior race.

[Telonius]

Well, there are the Ogre Mages. As far as spiritual leaders, they take levels in Cleric or Druid.

Note to self: new caster fix. Require all casters to play as Ogres.

[Kylarra]

Note to self: new caster fix. Require all casters to play as Ogres.

I lol'd.