Opposing group needed for high level wizards

[dspeyer]

Mind control is never a good act. Period. Paragraph. And it is only tentatively neutral, under the auspice of self-preservation. I would rate it as Lawful Neutral with even the slightest hint of full control being full blown diabolically Lawful Evil. But emphasis mine, it is NOT a good act.

I'm not talking about mind control here, just the sort of values-teaching that children require. Something comparable to growing up with patriotic parents, or attending a jesuit boarding school.

[Godskook]

Daggerspell Shapers seem well tailored to this job. The fluff is a loose cabal of caster/rogue do-gooders. Highly skilled, wild-shapers and half-decent divine casters, they're pretty much everything a wizard isn't. I'd stick mostly with humans, as able learner is one of my favorite feats for a multi-classed skill-monkey.

[KellKheraptis]

I'm not talking about mind control here, just the sort of values-teaching that children require. Something comparable to growing up with patriotic parents, or attending a jesuit boarding school.

I'm not going to let this degenerate into a sociopolitical debate, but I will say if you go this far, you might as well have them implant Necrotic Cysts. I say if you're going to go, go all out :) That way they can become a cabal of pet wizards if they forget to prep Prot/X or Mind Blank (though if/when they figure out they're cysted...they won't be happy).

[Godskook]

Oh, well... what you've asked for is simply impossible. The only way anything can hide from 15th level wizard magic is MindBlank. Which requires magic.

He said non-arcane, not non-caster. Clerics and Psions can get their hands on mindblank, and I suspect Druids can too.

[Darkmatter]

Slayers would do the trick - Cerebral Blind at 6th level means the wizards won't be able to scry on the more powerful members of the organization. Kineticist/Slayers have Null Psionics Field to help against the wizards' spells, and their martial abilities would be able to take out a wizard stripped of buffs pretty quickly. Just change the favored psionic enemy to members of your arcane organization.

[Yukitsu]

Depends on how the wizard academy was founded. Depending on how it was done, you may not get a legitimate reason, you may have one.

I built one up in character, and deliberately prepared for most of the problems people have mentioned, so they could exercise complete political control. However, I was playing a LG baelnorn, so the quality of life of everyone actually increased due to this.

Wizards in general should be opposed by clerics. While the wizards may be more dangerous on their own, the clerics can more easily garner support from the populace, and are very nearly as good in combat. The combination can keep the wizards contented with enough political power to further their prefered lifestyle. If the lead wizard is LG, this can continue ad infinitum, as really, lead wizard should have figured out how to live forever by now.

[KellKheraptis]

Slayers would do the trick - Cerebral Blind at 6th level means the wizards won't be able to scry on the more powerful members of the organization. Kineticist/Slayers have Null Psionics Field to help against the wizards' spells, and their martial abilities would be able to take out a wizard stripped of buffs pretty quickly. Just change the favored psionic enemy to members of your arcane organization.

Actually, can't you qualify for the Arcane Hunter ACF? That would work even better, especially if you tack on scout and do your best to become a swift hunter. Base it on erudites (the wizard's psionic counterpart no less) and snag Hunter's Mercy as a power. A whole ton of skirmish/SA applied to a normally immune target=pain. Just gotta make sure to take out the 18 layers of protection, and that's only the lesser members...

NOTE : I tend to play Batman wizards in the extreme...as in I keep profiles on comrades even in esoteric languages in the event I have to face them. So there is a legitimate in-game reason if the "R&D Department" has come up with a perfect counter to anything thrown at me. But not all wizards are this bad/paranoid/scary. Only the dangerous ones :P Be afraid if the top of the organization have circle magic on War Weavers...

[taltamir]

Mind control is never a good act. Period. Paragraph. And it is only tentatively neutral, under the auspice of self-preservation. I would rate it as Lawful Neutral with even the slightest hint of full control being full blown diabolically Lawful Evil. But emphasis mine, it is NOT a good act.

And adding to topic, look at the Harpers, and maybe the PrC Unseen Seer. I could see a paramilitary group such as the Harpers employing Uneen Seers as a special strike team, given that a good deal of their power works just fine in an AMF, and they can still keep their spells with one feat applied. The only sad part is a full caster can do it better :P

he just described, verbatim, the public education system found in every country in the world.

EDIT: Although when I think about it, the american founding fathers would probably agree that every government in the world is evil :)

[Omegonthesane]

You could playtest a party of these babies against the wizards. Though, I'd recommend more like 1 Witch Killer and 3 Fighters or something because of the large number of counterspell slots.

[Cheesegear]

Anything that can get out of Mindrape, or at least slow it down a bit. Off hand,

Rogues with Slippery Mind and/or Spymasters (Complete Adventurer)
Paladins of Freedom and/or Occult Slayers (Complete Warrior).
Read up on the fluff and such.

Both would go about killing wizards in their own special way. Go for Ranger and grab Favoured Enemy (Arcanists) which is one of the most overpowered things ever. And stack Mage Slayer feats to suit.

Misunderstood the post. Magic causes cataclysms and wars. As a result, sometime in the past, the Witch Hunts happened. Magic is universally despised and hated. A wizard who exposes himself is stoned to death. As such, not many wizards make it world-conquering levels. And, those that are, keep quiet about it. Lest the Clerics/Paladins of all the magic-hating Gods come and kill them.

[Lkctgo]

In a (D&D 3.5) campaign world I'm running there is an organisation of wizards with a number of high level (15-20) wizard members, as well as many more in the mid levels.

I am looking for an in-game plausible opponent to these to explain (other than through internal divisions, interest, or morality) why these wizards do not have more political power, and I need to find another group that is able to keep these in check, without themselves excercising unlimited power. These opponents need to:
- be mortal (preferable one or more of the normal player races)
- not be full arcane casters in their own right
- be a threat to wizards of similar level to themselves
- be able to operate quietly (so the whole region isn't overly aware of their existence)

I know that I could just handwave the whole problem away (they don't have more power because they just don't, ok?), but neither I or my players find this particularly satisfying.

Within the campaign world all teleports are limited to line of sight, there is no craft contingent and abilities to summon outsiders are severely limited. Pretty much anything non-campaign specific and published 3.5 is ok.

Anyone have any suggestions for this rival organisation? Thanks.

Two words. Suel Arachnamancer.

[Willis888]

To enforce your will on a population you need enforcers. The broader your ambitions, the larger the army that is required.

If a cabal of archmages raises an army and invades someplace, everyone nearby who also has an army is likely to respond (either to defend or take for themselves) with mixed units and in superior numbers.

However, the greatest minds in the land should have exactly as much political power and influence as they choose to have, and individual wizards may also be high ranking bureaucrats or (advisors to) nobility. I imagine that a member of this cabal who spends a greater potion of time politicking would have magical weaknesses that are soon exploited by associates.

[taltamir]

Anything that can get out of Mindrape, or at least slow it down a bit. Off hand,

Rogues with Slippery Mind and/or Spymasters (Complete Adventurer)
Paladins of Freedom and/or Occult Slayers (Complete Warrior).
Read up on the fluff and such.

Both would go about killing wizards in their own special way. Go for Ranger and grab Favoured Enemy (Arcanists) which is one of the most overpowered things ever. And stack Mage Slayer feats to suit.

Misunderstood the post. Magic causes cataclysms and wars. As a result, sometime in the past, the Witch Hunts happened. Magic is universally despised and hated. A wizard who exposes himself is stoned to death. As such, not many wizards make it world-conquering levels. And, those that are, keep quiet about it. Lest the Clerics/Paladins of all the magic-hating Gods come and kill them.

protection from arrows, you are now immune to stones... fireball + angry mob = epic win!

[Cheesegear]

protection from arrows, you are now immune to stones...

But not pitchforks and fire. And swords from the local militia. Not to mention that old guy in the back who has his grandad's Enchantment-breaking Wizard-slaying sword left over from the two Witch Hunts they had a while back...Even if you do manage to kill them all, the big bad good Warforged Paladin (named RoboCob, for some reason ), smashes you to pieces for killing all the townsfolk.

Anyway, you need to be Level 4 to have that spell (and Level 6 for Fireball), at least. You have to actually live that long to even get to Level 4. The common wizard who is fifteen or so, just learning his magic, wont have that. And, since in my world, just about every scroll ever seen is burned. A Wizard usually has a tough time finding spells to write down, and rarely, does he manage to have a spell he actually wants...

Anyone caught writing magic down and trying to control it (having a Spellbook, which wizards need) is dead. In my world, a wizard wouldn't make it past level 2 before he's killed. Most of them get killed at 'level 0'.

It's how I can tell my PCs "You can't be wizards..." and feel fully justified. And, is a good reason the two or three Wizards who are actually considered 'powerful' in my world have absolutely zero actual power. Which is what the OP is looking for.

They stay away from people. And don't. Do. Anything.

[Yukitsu]

But not pitchforks and fire. And swords from the local militia. Not to mention that old guy in the back who has his grandad's Enchantment-breaking Wizard-slaying sword left over from the two Witch Hunts they had a while back...Even if you do manage to kill them all, the big bad good Warforged Paladin (named RoboCob, for some reason ), smashes you to pieces for killing all the townsfolk.

Anyway, you need to be Level 4 to have that spell (and Level 6 for Fireball), at least. You have to actually live that long to even get to Level 4. The common wizard who is fifteen or so, just learning his magic, wont have that. And, since in my world, just about every scroll ever seen is burned. A Wizard usually has a tough time finding spells to write down, and rarely, does he manage to have a spell he actually wants...

Anyone caught writing magic down and trying to control it (having a Spellbook, which wizards need) is dead. In my world, a wizard wouldn't make it past level 2 before he's killed. Most of them get killed at 'level 0'.

It's how I can tell my PCs "You can't be wizards..." and feel fully justified. And, is a good reason the two or three Wizards who are actually considered 'powerful' in my world have absolutely zero actual power. Which is what the OP is looking for.

They stay away from people. And don't. Do. Anything.

It's 3 and 5, not 4 and 6.

Also, your wizards aren't very smart, are they.

[KellKheraptis]

It's 3 and 5, not 4 and 6.

Also, your wizards aren't very smart, are they.

Nor are they Illusionists, and by extension Shadowcraft Magi. You can get by just fine with one spell permamastered when that one spell powers an at will Miracle pre-epic, with 0 XP cost. Hell, if I was an archmage in that setting, it would be my lifelong goal to completely destroy every single last remnant of the old order. Revolution in the extreme. And failing that, if the rubes refused to listen to reason, replace all the major figures with Sims. Absolute worst case scenario = AftS, with proper metamagicks, to depressurize the mantle, and then leave. Let the druids try and stop the apocalypse as the planet collapses in on itself, and failing that, good riddance :D

NOTE : Yes, I have done this in game. Yes, the party and DM had a blast with it. And yes, I was called Frieza for a loooong time afterwards.

[olentu]

Nor are they Illusionists, and by extension Shadowcraft Magi. You can get by just fine with one spell permamastered when that one spell powers an at will Miracle pre-epic, with 0 XP cost. Hell, if I was an archmage in that setting, it would be my lifelong goal to completely destroy every single last remnant of the old order. Revolution in the extreme. And failing that, if the rubes refused to listen to reason, replace all the major figures with Sims. Absolute worst case scenario = AftS, with proper metamagicks, to depressurize the mantle, and then leave. Let the druids try and stop the apocalypse as the planet collapses in on itself, and failing that, good riddance :D

NOTE : Yes, I have done this in game. Yes, the party and DM had a blast with it. And yes, I was called Frieza for a loooong time afterwards.

One would probably want the spell to be signatured. In any case I contend that the miracle trick is too dependent on DM ruling in a way that makes wizards archivists.

Edit: Though in any case illusionists Simulacrum and ice assassin making many other things superfluous.

[KellKheraptis]

One would probably want the spell to be signatured. In any case I contend that the miracle trick is too dependent on DM ruling in a way that makes wizards archivists.

I can do it with any caster capable of adding miracle to their spell list with access to circle magic. Bear in mind, I didn't say shadow miracle, I said miracle. As in real real major effect for free miracle :D SCM's just have a leg up on the competition.

[olentu]

I can do it with any caster capable of adding miracle to their spell list with access to circle magic. Bear in mind, I didn't say shadow miracle, I said miracle. As in real real major effect for free miracle :D SCM's just have a leg up on the competition.

So since it is a different trick that has nothing to do with illusion restricted wizards (except for the fact that they can not cast miracle without regaining access to evocation) what does this have to do with being an illusionist. I do not really follow the they must not be illusionists because of a trick that does not require being an illusionist.

[Yukitsu]

Nor are they Illusionists, and by extension Shadowcraft Magi. You can get by just fine with one spell permamastered when that one spell powers an at will Miracle pre-epic, with 0 XP cost. Hell, if I was an archmage in that setting, it would be my lifelong goal to completely destroy every single last remnant of the old order. Revolution in the extreme. And failing that, if the rubes refused to listen to reason, replace all the major figures with Sims. Absolute worst case scenario = AftS, with proper metamagicks, to depressurize the mantle, and then leave. Let the druids try and stop the apocalypse as the planet collapses in on itself, and failing that, good riddance :D

NOTE : Yes, I have done this in game. Yes, the party and DM had a blast with it. And yes, I was called Frieza for a loooong time afterwards.

I did this as well, but with a twist.

When the peasants/government came with some false accusation about tainting the shell fish which the peasants relied upon for their income, I just said I'd buy it all at market price. This brought around the peasants, who like having a stable buyer. They sold it all using teleport to far inland nations at 4x price.

Then the army came in to try and oust us by force for no reason at all, and saw an empty building. And while they were trying to get all the wizards, who had divinations BTW, the wizards had conquered a small neighboring nation, captured the bases and assets and brought it back, buying out most of the aristocracy, or aristocratic titles.

So with the upper and lower classes, it was just a matter of supplanting the middle class, while avoiding the royalty. They did it by using magic to take over industry and commerce. By this point in time, the government went into a flurried panic, trying to buy out the populace with big promises that they couldn't keep. The wizards withdrew for a while, and the government collapsed due to discontent. And of course, guess who was around to pick up the pieces.

[KellKheraptis]

So since it is a different trick that has nothing to do with illusion restricted wizards (except for the fact that they can not cast miracle without regaining access to evocation) what does this have to do with being an illusionist. I do not really follow the they must not be illusionists because of a trick that does not require being an illusionist.

Read the last sentence :P SCM makes the whole process a lot easier, and relies on less fishy rules to do it. Everyone else needs Savage Species. And as for Yukitsu, that is bloody brilliant! Though I gotta admit...being called the World Destroyer was fun, at least until it attracted Garyx (the REAL World Destroyer, from the Abyss).

[olentu]

Read the last sentence :P SCM makes the whole process a lot easier, and relies on less fishy rules to do it. Everyone else needs Savage Species. And as for Yukitsu, that is bloody brilliant! Though I gotta admit...being called the World Destroyer was fun, at least until it attracted Garyx (the REAL World Destroyer, from the Abyss).

There are various ways to get free miracles. Why use the one that requires fishy rules or savage species. And even then as being an illusionist is not required it still seems to work out to saying that they must not be illusionists because of this not necessarily illusionist requiring trick.

[KellKheraptis]

There are various ways to get free miracles. Why use the one that requires fishy rules or savage species. And even then as being an illusionist is not required it still seems to work out to saying that they must not be illusionists because of this not necessarily illusionist requiring trick.

Illusionists have the easiest time of it because of the ACF in UA letting them automaster Illusion spells. Meaning they don't need to write a spellbook. The other methods involved Innate Spell and Supernatural Transformation.

[olentu]

Illusionists have the easiest time of it because of the ACF in UA letting them automaster Illusion spells. Meaning they don't need to write a spellbook. The other methods involved Innate Spell and Supernatural Transformation.

Hmm I have not heard the specifics of the one where it matters so much that one does not need a spellbook. If it just saves gold and hastle it seems a bit much of a hastle for having to make miracle an illusion spell.

The other bit is of course still problematic as ever due to the undefined term in assume supernatural ability means that the trick is again completely dependent on the DM ruling (as just because things sound similar does not mean they are the same).

[PinkysBrain]

All in all a thieves guild with some high level clerics for scrolls seems the most potent anti-wizard force without needing too much casting itself (except for UMD).

[Thatguyoverther]

I would vote for Clerics as the balancers. With a healthy dose of witch hunting, whenever a wizard steps out of line.

[taltamir]

But not pitchforks and fire. And swords from the local militia. Not to mention that old guy in the back who has his grandad's Enchantment-breaking Wizard-slaying sword left over from the two Witch Hunts they had a while back...Even if you do manage to kill them all, the big bad good Warforged Paladin (named RoboCob, for some reason ), smashes you to pieces for killing all the townsfolk.

Anyway, you need to be Level 4 to have that spell (and Level 6 for Fireball), at least. You have to actually live that long to even get to Level 4. The common wizard who is fifteen or so, just learning his magic, wont have that. And, since in my world, just about every scroll ever seen is burned. A Wizard usually has a tough time finding spells to write down, and rarely, does he manage to have a spell he actually wants...

Anyone caught writing magic down and trying to control it (having a Spellbook, which wizards need) is dead. In my world, a wizard wouldn't make it past level 2 before he's killed. Most of them get killed at 'level 0'.

It's how I can tell my PCs "You can't be wizards..." and feel fully justified. And, is a good reason the two or three Wizards who are actually considered 'powerful' in my world have absolutely zero actual power. Which is what the OP is looking for.

They stay away from people. And don't. Do. Anything.

SO let me get this traight:
1. Magic is punishable by death
2. Warforged (magical constructs only repairably by magic) are somehow ok
3. The violent mob burning innocents women at the stake is "innocent"
and
4. Killing them in self defense gets the wrath of the paladins on your head.?

Besides all of that, you seem to have homebrewed a wizard/sorcerer hybrid thing.
A sorcerer gets its powers in puberty, it needs no books, scrolls, or teachers, it just has power.
A wizard does not have their "powers awaken", they don't have any. They have years of training and knowledge which they apply with magical formulae.
At level 11 a wizard can learn to permanent some spells, like detect magic and tongues, only then does he have "powers" that all "mages" do in traditional fantasy. (aka, the ability to sense "magic" about things... no, you aren't born with it, you NEED to cast a SPELL, detect magic, to do so).

you also apply the policy against magic to the ENTIRE WORLD. thats not believable, especially in a world with no high tech.

It really makes more sense to just use DM fiat and say "there are no wizards"... Magic is limited to magical races (say, dragons), if a human wants to use it he finds himself drained to death in a few spells. OR he has to seek another source of power... Say, human sacrifices... which is evil, which gives a legitimate excuse to hunt down wizards and to not be one.

[Yukitsu]

Read the last sentence :P SCM makes the whole process a lot easier, and relies on less fishy rules to do it. Everyone else needs Savage Species. And as for Yukitsu, that is bloody brilliant! Though I gotta admit...being called the World Destroyer was fun, at least until it attracted Garyx (the REAL World Destroyer, from the Abyss).

All I got from that little work was the title of "Magnificent Bastard".

[vrellum]

dragon marks from eberron might help. Limited magic ability for certain characters

[Chrono22]

A karsite/half iron golem barbarian/frenzied berserker with the mage slayer feats. Mix in some levels of fighter for spiked chain proficiency and some other decent tricks.
For equipment, create a continuous function item that actively harms the wearer with an incredible amount of fire damage. This will act to heal the half-iron golem and give him a constant haste effect. Items that raise his resistance to electricity damage, increase his tactical mobility, and his spell resistance are also a good idea.
Also grant him a couple of 1 time-use beads (thrown weapon) of antimagic field.

Obviously this character would be designed for killing spellcasters... let's say he was experimented upon by them due to his karsite heritage, and seeks retribution against all magic users for the sin of using magic. An anti-magic paladin, if you will.