(4E) Swordmages

[Zonack]

Ok I checked both Player's Handbooks and my friends have also checked em and we never found that...

Now I just got the Arcane Power book and the title reads.

Options for Bards, Sorcerers, SWORDMAGES, Warlocks and Wizards.

God I love Swordmages/Battlemages in ANY game, but where are they???
Are they a class??

[incubus5075]

in the forgotten realms player's guide

[Krrth]

Ok I checked both Player's Handbooks and my friends have also checked em and we never found that...

Now I just got the Arcane Power book and the title reads.

Options for Bards, Sorcerers, SWORDMAGES, Warlocks and Wizards.

God I love Swordmages/Battlemages in ANY game, but where are they???
Are they a class??

Yes. They are in the 4e Faerun book and are Arcane Defenders.

[tcrudisi]

If you are interested in playing one, or have a player who is, the free version of the character builder would let you create a level 1 to 3 character. Using that, you'll learn what their basic class features are, and using Arcane Power, you'll be able to create one. Sure, it won't be as good as if you had the FRPG, but at least it would be playable.

*edit* Side note -- they are widely considered to be the second best defenders in the game (second to only Fighters). They really are a good class.

[Krrth]

If you are interested in playing one, or have a player who is, the free version of the character builder would let you create a level 1 to 3 character. Using that, you'll learn what their basic class features are, and using Arcane Power, you'll be able to create one. Sure, it won't be as good as if you had the FRPG, but at least it would be playable.

*edit* Side note -- they are widely considered to be the second best defenders in the game (second to only Fighters). They really are a good class.

That's what I did, download the generator. The class seems to work rather well, and I'm having fun running it.

[Thajocoth]

*edit* Side note -- they are widely considered to be the second best defenders in the game (second to only Fighters). They really are a good class.

Really?! Better than Wardens?! And Paladins?! For a defender that loses 3AC for the rest of the encounter if they go unconscious once and already have pretty low defenses & hp compared to other defenders?

I agree that the Fighter's the best defender so far, as the Fighter's mark and the Fighter's AO are both quite good... The Paladin has the best defenses and the Warden has the most hp. They can both take a lot more hits. The Swordmage has some nice powers, but that huge penalty for simply dipping into unconsciousness really cripples them imo.

I'm not saying they're awful. Just... I have trouble seeing why they'd be regarded as second-best...

[Krrth]

Really?! Better than Wardens?! And Paladins?! For a defender that loses 3AC for the rest of the encounter if they go unconscious once and already have pretty low defenses & hp compared to other defenders?

I agree that the Fighter's the best defender so far, as the Fighter's mark and the Fighter's AO are both quite good... The Paladin has the best defenses and the Warden has the most hp. They can both take a lot more hits. The Swordmage has some nice powers, but that huge penalty for simply dipping into unconsciousness really cripples them imo.

I'm not saying they're awful. Just... I have trouble seeing why they'd be regarded as second-best...

I hadn't noticed any of that. As a matter of fact, my Swordmage is on par with the paladin in terms of defense and hp. Where does the penatly for going uncouncious come in?

[Thajocoth]

I hadn't noticed any of that. As a matter of fact, my Swordmage is on par with the paladin in terms of defense and hp. Where does the penatly for going uncouncious come in?

Swordmage's Warding shuts off when you go unconscious until you have a short or extended rest.

[Krrth]

Swordmage's Warding shuts off when you go unconscious until you have a short or extended rest.

So it does. I hadn't noticed that before.

Easily fixed, just carry a shield on your back and pull it out.

[Mando Knight]

Really?! Better than Wardens?! And Paladins?! For a defender that loses 3AC for the rest of the encounter if they go unconscious once and already have pretty low defenses & hp compared to other defenders?

Same HP, Paladin-level AC with optimization, high Fort, high Reflex, and a class +2 bonus to Will doesn't sound low.

Their per-power damage output is lower than the other Defenders, but the Shielding Swordmage shuts down enemy damage output, the Assault Swordmage sticks to his mark like there's no tomorrow, and the Ensnarement Swordmage not only drags the opponent back to him for more damage, but also opens it up to Combat Advantage.

[Thajocoth]

Paladin-level AC with optimization

With two feats, you mean (Hide prof or Improved Warding + That feat that lets you keep Warding after becoming conscious again), while the Paladin doesn't need to waste feats to have and keep their AC. Without any feats, their AC is slightly lower 2/3 of the time and WAY lower the other 1/3. Unless they're not doing a good job of convincing enemies to fight them instead... Then you wind up with dead strikers instead.

[Demonix]

Actually, we had a swordmage that had a damage output just short of ridiculous, but to be fair that party had 2 leaders, 2 defenders and a controller. It took us a long time to kill anything, but we never lost anyone. Came close a couple of times.

Best one was a flying over treetops charge initiated by my Knight's Move. Since she used a heavy blade, her crit chance was ridiculous and she rolled well too. I think she managed a 51 point hit on that one. :)

Party makeup was:

Genasi Swordmage
Dragonborn Paladin
Teifling Warlord
Human Cleric
Human Wizard

[Jack_Banzai]

Swordmage's Warding shuts off when you go unconscious until you have a short or extended rest.

That is lame. I don't think most DMs observe that rule. At least I hope not.

[Mando Knight]

With two feats, you mean (Hide prof or Improved Warding + That feat that lets you keep Warding after becoming conscious again), while the Paladin doesn't need to waste feats to have and keep their AC. Without any feats, their AC is slightly lower 2/3 of the time and WAY lower the other 1/3. Unless they're not doing a good job of convincing enemies to fight them instead... Then you wind up with dead strikers instead.

Nope. Even an 18 Int can get the Swordmage up to 19 AC at level 1 (4+3+2) with just Leather... which is the highest a Fighter can get without specializing in AC, and the highest a Warden can get with specializing in AC. Grabbing 20 Int or Hide improves that to 20. Optimizing the Swordmage's AC mostly means keeping their main attacking stat high.

As for the other defenses, the Swordmage is the only one out of the defenders that keeps his Reflex defense decently high (unless you boost your Dexterity instead of Wisdom as a Fighter), and keeps the Defenders' usual high Fortitude. Will can lag behind a bit at higher levels, but that's eventually remedied with Epic Will.

[Break]

I have not seen any suggestion that swordmages were the second best defenders before this topic. I always found them to be on the weak side, really, and not just because of the warding dropping issue (which has been houseruled in pretty much every game I've been in, due to the rule being quite silly).

[Kurald Galain]

Really?! Better than Wardens?! And Paladins?!

Yes. Having good defenses doesn't make you a good defender. In fact paladins were probably the worst defender until Divine Power came out, since they couldn't give enough incentive for the enemies to attack the paladin.

[Oracle_Hunter]

God, Swordmages are terrible Defenders! Or at least, the one in my game is.

Spoiler

Show

It's an Eberron game, with the following party make-up (1st level):

Half-Elf Thaneborne Barbarian (me)
Warforged Wrath (the striker-y one) Invoker
Warforged Warding Swordmage (yes, with improved Warding)
Changeling Psionic
Kalashtar Monk
Human Artificer

So he's the only Defender and I'm the only Striker. Even with the boatload of Controllers here, the Swordmage has almost always gone down while I'm teaming with him - and I soon follow. Why? Because when he marks things he gets pounded into the ground. Oh, I love his Warding (Ward + THP = ) but it only works once per round (Immediate Action, y'know). This means he usually has to pick between Warding me or the Monk (for baddies with burst effects) - not a good choice.

I'd love to have a Fighter in the party who can at least deck the baddie if he takes a swing at me - or a Warden who can suck up however many baddies he wants. Hell, a Paladin would be better - at least he can throw out some Lay on Hands

[Kaerius]

Swordmages make better mass minion slayers than defenders(well, at least they have the potential, just go thunderball).

I'd personally rate paladin(chaladin) and fighter as the two best defenders. Chaladins have lots of staying power, and from lvl 2 they have 2 AoE divine sanction encounter abilities(divine power) that really makes the enemy not want to hit anyone else. Heck if you have a paladin and a fighter, the fighter can draw the enemies in and sticky them, and the paladin make it painful for them to hit the fighter! At which point their best action is... total defense, because hitting the fighter hurts, trying to move away from the fighter also hurts.

Swordmage on the other hand can only mitigate/punish once per round, but can can spend 4 feats(3 if he hybrids wizard) to make his at-will attack close burst 3. In fact a hybrid wiz/swordmage is an excellent minion wiper who can also lockdown the bigger baddies.

[Kurald Galain]

God, Swordmages are terrible Defenders! Or at least, the one in my game is.

Hm, I've never played a swordmage myself, but I've seen some monsters become quite ineffective because of a swordmage's "reduce damage to his allies" ability. Of course, they do tend to lean towards weird strategies like marking a monster and then running away to the other side of the battlefield...

Personally I prefer the fighter's ability to stop enemy movement.

[Uin]

The 4e Char Op guys currently reckon Paladin > Swordmage > Fighter > Warden. Divine Power in some ways is the most powerful splat book, but really it just comes down to how many options are available.

Fighter was best after MP. Swordmage was best after AP. Now Paladin is best after DP.

[TheEmerged]

Really?! Better than Wardens?! And Paladins?! For a defender that loses 3AC for the rest of the encounter if they go unconscious once and already have pretty low defenses & hp compared to other defenders?

I agree that the Fighter's the best defender so far, as the Fighter's mark and the Fighter's AO are both quite good... The Paladin has the best defenses and the Warden has the most hp. They can both take a lot more hits. The Swordmage has some nice powers, but that huge penalty for simply dipping into unconsciousness really cripples them imo.

I'm not saying they're awful. Just... I have trouble seeing why they'd be regarded as second-best...

Because unlike Wardens (pending Primal Power) and Paladins (before Divine Power), Swordmages actually give the marked victims a reason to attack him instead of "kill the one(s) in the dress!" Also, I have to question that "low defenses" statement, the one in our party is comparable without much in the way of optimazation.

And regarding the unconscious thing... how often does the defender really go unconscious in play? I'll grant our party runs with 2 leaders (bard, and laser priest that's going buffing priest next adventure), but I've only seen someone get to the "surge value" margin a couple of times.

The Swordmage in the party I DM for is pretty reliably either the second or third damage dealer (depending on how much AE the wizard gets to dish). We're running with the 1 defender/striker/controller 2 leader mix.

[Thajocoth]

Swordmages make better mass minion slayers than defenders(well, at least they have the potential, just go thunderball).

Swordmage on the other hand can only mitigate/punish once per round, but can can spend 4 feats(3 if he hybrids wizard) to make his at-will attack close burst 3. In fact a hybrid wiz/swordmage is an excellent minion wiper who can also lockdown the bigger baddies.

Yeah, Swordmages are secondarily controllers, so it makes sense they're kinda good at doing controller things. The odd part is that they're about as good controllers as defenders. I'd say a Swordmage|Wizard is a controller with a sprinkle of defender.

[Oracle_Hunter]

The 4e Char Op guys currently reckon Paladin > Swordmage > Fighter > Warden. Divine Power in some ways is the most powerful splat book, but really it just comes down to how many options are available.

Fighter was best after MP. Swordmage was best after AP. Now Paladin is best after DP.

I'm not seeing the CharOp consensus. Could you link to a thread?

EDIT:

Because unlike Wardens (pending Primal Power) and Paladins (before Divine Power), Swordmages actually give the marked victims a reason to attack him instead of "kill the one(s) in the dress!" Also, I have to question that "low defenses" statement, the one in our party is comparable without much in the way of optimazation.

I dunno... maybe he has really bad NADs? We've been facing mostly NAD Kickers lately.

I guess my biggest complaint is that they don't actually defend anyone. Heck, every post I've read lauds them for being huge damage dealers - which is the role of the Striker, not the Defender.

Anyhow, next game I plan (IC) to chat with him about battle tactics. One of the benefits of being the bastard child of a Valenar warband leader

[Blackfang108]

God, Swordmages are terrible Defenders! Or at least, the one in my game is.

Spoiler

Show

It's an Eberron game, with the following party make-up (1st level):

Half-Elf Thaneborne Barbarian (me)
Warforged Wrath (the striker-y one) Invoker
Warforged Warding Swordmage (yes, with improved Warding)
Changeling Psionic
Kalashtar Monk
Human Artificer

So he's the only Defender and I'm the only Striker. Even with the boatload of Controllers here, the Swordmage has almost always gone down while I'm teaming with him - and I soon follow. Why? Because when he marks things he gets pounded into the ground. Oh, I love his Warding (Ward + THP = ) but it only works once per round (Immediate Action, y'know). This means he usually has to pick between Warding me or the Monk (for baddies with burst effects) - not a good choice.

I'd love to have a Fighter in the party who can at least deck the baddie if he takes a swing at me - or a Warden who can suck up however many baddies he wants. Hell, a Paladin would be better - at least he can throw out some Lay on Hands

Without knowing the TYPE of swordmage (Assault, Shielding, Ensnarement) we can't really comment on this. Nevermind on this. It's Shielding, not Warding. (Their Warding is a Class feature that gives them a + to AC.)

Except I can say this much now: He's playing wrong if he's marking and then staying there. The best Defender I know is a Shielding SM who is never near the enemies he's Marked. Instead, he's marking one enemy, and engaging another enemy on the other side of the squishies.

As the player of an effective Assault Mage (Pre AP, even) It's the same thing. A swordmage should never stay near his mark unless it's the only creature left. Make the mark go through your allies to reach you, or attack your ally with a -2, knowing that something terrible is going to happen to it if it does, in fact, hit.

EDIT: and Monk's a Striker, too.

[Thajocoth]

Creating some quick level 1 chars in the builder:

Longtooth Shifter - 26HP, 9 surges, 19AC, 17Fort, 12Ref, 12Will, Stops enemies in their tracks, bonus to AOs, spends 1/3 of their time dazed.

Warforged Warden - 33HP, 12 surges, 18AC, 16Fort, 12Ref, 12Will, Second Wind makes it nigh impossible for enemies to hit allies, spends 1/6th of their time dazed.

Longtooth Shifter Paladin - 26HP, 10 surges, 20AC, 16Fort, 13Ref, 14Will, Can heal a bit, marked enemies burn when they disobey, spends 1/4th of their time dazed.

Githyanki Swordmage - 31HP, 11 surges, 19AC average, 13 Fort, 15 Ref, 13 Will, Can protect allies from damage. AC is 20 2/3 of the time & 17 1/3 of the time for an average of 19. Spends 1/3 of their time dazed.

EDIT: Each case has 20 in their primary stat and 16 in their secondary. Fighter is Str/Wis, Warden is Str/Con, Paladin is Str/Wis & Swordmage is Int/Con, with the relevant class feature choices for those builds...

[Oracle_Hunter]

Except I can say this much now: He's playing wrong if he's marking and then staying there. The best Defender I know is a Shielding SM who is never near the enemies he's Marked. Instead, he's marking one enemy, and engaging another enemy on the other side of the squishies.

I'll mention it to him.

The problem is our last few fights have either been hordes-though-rooms or claustraphobia, so he's usually nearby - even if he's not getting hit.

Any yeah, while Monks *are* Strikers it's being played by a person who doesn't care much for combat. So while other people built the character and advise her what to do, nobody else at the table is really a Monk expert.

Me? I got an Executioner's Axe and a +3 to hit buff whenever I bloody someone. First battle I one-shotted a Soldier (thanks to Rage Drake Frenzy and a Crit) - second one I was two-hitting everyone except the heavies.

And then the Drow attacked

[DiscipleofBob]

Swordmages are amazing. I'm not going to say they're better or worse than any other defender or any other class because I abhor such conversations, but Blackfang108 is right: If you're playing a Swordmage the same way you play a Fighter or Warden, you're doing it wrong.

My swordmage (shielding of course) will mark an enemy, use one of many abilities to teleport to the other side of the room (and for the record, she's human, not eladrin, all her teleport abilities come with the class even without aegis of assault), pretty much force the target to attack someone else and have its damage negated, the triggering of which will give the swordmage some decent bonuses due to some feats.

If someone manages to hit her, she retaliates with Frost Backlash for 3[W]+Int frost damage. If someone manages to hit a nearby ally, she can use her Corona Guard paragon encounter to basically make the attack whiff. If someone gets her with a ranged attack, she can teleport right next to said ranged character. If she gets disarmed or captured, she can call her sword to her from a mile away.

So yea, in my experience, swordmages are awesome.

[Krrth]

I'll chime in with the others on playing a swordmage. I mark the nastiest thing on the table and then let the avenger and paladin beat up on it.

I'll then go and beat up on the lesser critters.

[Oracle_Hunter]

This... does not sound very Defender-y. Really, it's more like a Controller/Striker - single target debuff with lots of damage powers.

I mean, look at the basic description:

Defenders have the highest defenses in the game and good close-up offense. They are the party’s front-line combatants; wherever they’re standing, that’s where the action is. Defenders have abilities and powers that make it difficult for enemies to move past them or to ignore them in battle.

Yeah. What we need is a Defender to keep the Barbarian from being focused-fired while she Rages. It may be a very good class, but I still don't see how it can be called a good Defender.

[DiscipleofBob]

This... does not sound very Defender-y. Really, it's more like a Controller/Striker - single target debuff with lots of damage powers.

I mean, look at the basic description:

Yeah. What we need is a Defender to keep the Barbarian from being focused-fired while she Rages. It may be a very good class, but I still don't see how it can be called a good Defender.

Please read the Aegis of Shielding again. This one aspect is possibly the single most defender-esque ability in the game. It literally means "I stop you from hurting my ally." I don't see how you can get more Defender than that.