Worst class in the entire game.

[Thebar99]

Elric, it seems he's refusing my scenario entirely now. So I suspect this is all moot. Instead he'd rather go knock down someone's straw man and declare victory. If this were not so, he'd have accepted you or declined you when prompted instead of ignoring that entirely and continuing on tangents. If he doesn't get back on topic soon I will assume he's bowing out and get someone else to run the Rogue.

It'd be nice if there were more good players I was not personally involved with creating or at least had a secondhand role. There isn't - in part because people learn bad play habits from bad players, in part because it's easier to learn habits than unlearn them, and in part because so many are personally offended by things that should not be personal at all, such as "Rogues suck".

I will not show any remorse for telling the truth, even if it hurts. And anyone that would ignore my good points just because they don't like me isn't worth my time anyways, so it's actually a good thing they filter themselves out for me. After all, I deal in objectivity. Anyone not objective enough to realize "He's a jerk, but right." is literally incapable of getting it.

And 18 Int isn't omniscience. Even 38 isn't. However it does mean he's not going to act as if basic tactics are beyond him. Which is what most people seem to think should happen, then they get mortally offended by things like a creature using its natural environment to its advantage in a basic way.

CR stuff: First of all, that means the Rogue should pass half the time. I believe he'll fail 100% of the time. I am also so confident in this fact I was already going to not use a level appropriate encounter, but instead use something lower. I still believe he'll fail 100% of the time. As for a party, a party would handle a level appropriate foe with 20% resources. However they'd do so in spite of the Rogue, not because of him. Again though I was already going to use a mook and win anyways, so objection's moot.

Other stuff:

1: Yes. The Rogue player (probably not Eldest at this point) forwards his actions to you. I act for my guy(s) and post that to you. If someone does something the other side becomes aware of, you pass the info on. You also make sure the numbers are correct.

2: Those were examples of how Bluff has a very limited scope, because it does and also a statement Diplomacy is impractical in actual play, because you can't hit the DCs without TO stuff (in other words, the lockpicking problem except slightly less pronounced and convincing people > picking locks). There aren't any "guards" in this scenario though, so point's moot.

3: Define beyond their abilities. People have declared with a straight face that a creature with 22 Int, Greater Teleport at will, and a high level Wizard giving him coordinates and a travel path cannot intercept a party moving in a predictable manner, hide from them, and then ambush them. They claimed it was severely unfair the creature did this, and was worth a 2-7 point increase in CR. There won't be any 22 Int scores or Greater Teleports or WizPSes involved here, but if you are going to declare that a creature using its abilities in a basic and obvious manner is unfair we're done, as that'd be a prime example of most players being bad because they fight MMO mobs and not play D&D.

[georgie_leech]

3: Define beyond their abilities. People have declared with a straight face that a creature with 22 Int, Greater Teleport at will, and a high level Wizard giving him coordinates and a travel path cannot intercept a party moving in a predictable manner, hide from them, and then ambush them. They claimed it was severely unfair the creature did this, and was worth a 2-7 point increase in CR. There won't be any 22 Int scores or Greater Teleports or WizPSes involved here, but if you are going to declare that a creature using its abilities in a basic and obvious manner is unfair we're done, as that'd be a prime example of most players being bad because they fight MMO mobs and not play D&D.

Maybe I'm just not seeing it, but when did this happen? In one of your games, or in this thread?

[Thebar99]

A while back, but people here today have the same mentality.

I do not have an 18 Int, so any and every plan I come up with an 18 Int guy could also construct. If anything the problem is that they're smarter than me, not that I am smarter than them.

So if he's going to be the type to claim smart creatures can't act like it, there's no point.

[Norin]

Thebar99 are you Iron Tarkus by any chance? This whole discussion really reminds me of the low tier competence thread from a while back.

[Turalisj]

Thebar99 are you Iron Tarkus by any chance? This whole discussion really reminds me of the low tier competence thread from a while back.

I don't think he would be allowed to answer that question.

[Thebar99]

Sure I can. No. And I'm very confused as to how you think I'm that nice.

Now can we focus guys? It seems we don't have a Rogue player anymore. It seems we do have a ref, if the new player approves them.

It shouldn't take this long to get past step 1. This is like herding cats.

[Arundel]

Sure I can. No. And I'm very confused as to how you think I'm that nice.

Now can we focus guys? It seems we don't have a Rogue player anymore. It seems we do have a ref, if the new player approves them.

It shouldn't take this long to get past step 1. This is like herding cats.

Well you have effectively established yourself as someone no one wants to play with. I don't really have a horse in the fight on the superiority/inferiority of the rogue, but I can't certainly say from your attitude that I would have no interest in a game you're a part of. Games have to have a much less aggressive attitude to peak my interest at least.

As suggestion on the fake challenge though, why not use a published scenario? I am sure there is a sample adventure or encounter somewhere that would fit the bill and be (by definition) RAW neutral.

[JaronK]

A while back, but people here today have the same mentality.

I do not have an 18 Int, so any and every plan I come up with an 18 Int guy could also construct. If anything the problem is that they're smarter than me, not that I am smarter than them.

So if he's going to be the type to claim smart creatures can't act like it, there's no point.

Hah! And I just recognized who you are.

IIRC, the argument was that the creature (a demon or devil that was burried in ice exactly on the path of the party) couldn't actually ambush the proposed scout character because it lit up the sky due to Lifesense from well outside the creature's own detection radius, and that Mindsight also auto detected it, and if it was supposed to be arbitrarily immune to those in addition to the "it gets to set up the encounter perfectly in advance" it should have a CR bump.

Not quite the same thing. Though the Wizard scrying on the party was never mentioned, so maybe it's different.

JaronK

[Lans]

Which means the question is, who is the ref? Not anyone involved in this thread so far, as their biases are obvious.

I'll volunteer as Ref

Though at this point if we need a player I'll be interested in that too if there is nobody else willing. I want to see how this plays out.

Enemies do not have and cannot get infinite SR or a dead magic effect (some can get high saves... casters can still deal with those).

Technically Golems and several other monsters have effectively infinite SR, its just not helpful as people think it is.

D&D has no facing rules, there is no "behind".

Really? REALLY? Did it occur to you that it might possibly be that the authors assumed that they didn't need to waste word count on saying 'people do not usually have all-round vision and thus it is possible to sneak up behind them with a good skill check', because only the most anal rules lawyer would try to use that in a serious argument?

To both of you, Dnd does in fact have facing rules, on page 124 of UA, how ever those rules are variant/optional and not at all applicable to this discussion.

A dead magic area could be close to impossible to beat if you are a level 1 or even 20 wizard.

Wizards are quite capable of curb stomping DM fiated dead magic zones, infinite SR, and saves.

[Eldest]

Elric, it seems he's refusing my scenario entirely now. So I suspect this is all moot. Instead he'd rather go knock down someone's straw man and declare victory. If this were not so, he'd have accepted you or declined you when prompted instead of ignoring that entirely and continuing on tangents. If he doesn't get back on topic soon I will assume he's bowing out and get someone else to run the Rogue.

It'd be nice if there were more good players I was not personally involved with creating or at least had a secondhand role. There isn't - in part because people learn bad play habits from bad players, in part because it's easier to learn habits than unlearn them, and in part because so many are personally offended by things that should not be personal at all, such as "Rogues suck".

I'm saying that it is flawed. I'll still run it.
Now, since you seem to be confused as to what a straw man is, it is: to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.
Now, name me a spot where I did that, please. I'd appreciate it if you laid off on the claim of straw men without point out exactly where one happened.
Secondly, I, at least, am not personally offended by your allegation that rogues suck. I disagree. I am (trying) to prove it.
Edit: I don't know what gave you any idea to the contrary, but I will still run the rogue.

[Thebar99]

Oh good, we're getting somewhere again.

Lans: I mean infinite SR isn't just something you can get. DC 40 locks are cheap. Full plate for an Ogre only costs twice as much as full plate for a human, and a single level of Fighter grants proficiency. If such an infinite SR/dead magic item did exist it'd cost closer to 150 million gold than 150. It'd also turn itself off. Of course, he was never presenting a serious argument to begin with, as all he really did was take "Anti Magic Torcs" up to 11.

Eldest: What people are doing here is creating scenarios in which the enemies are made to be far less competent then they actually are. Then the Rogue supposedly beats them (but typically actually does not), then victory is claimed. This is often followed by deliberately misstating the parameters... for example, the claim I ignored TWF with javelins... no, that's where the 8% success rate came from. Or the claim that barding was unfair. It was never included in the math. Never.

For both of you: Elric agreed to ref, he hasn't withdrawn that offer yet. Eldest has not accepted him. In the event Elric does back out, I'm fine with Lans reffing if Eldest is, although he has been involved in the Rogues suck argument quite a bit.

Eldest, do you accept Elric as ref? And Elric, are you still willing? If so, let's get a bloody move on already - it's no fun if the Rogue dies of starvation.

[Eldest]

Oh good, we're getting somewhere again.

Lans: I mean infinite SR isn't just something you can get. DC 40 locks are cheap. Full plate for an Ogre only costs twice as much as full plate for a human, and a single level of Fighter grants proficiency. If such an item did exist it'd cost closer to 150 million gold than 150. It'd also turn itself off.

Eldest: What people are doing here is creating scenarios in which the enemies are made to be far less competent then they actually are. Then the Rogue supposedly beats them (but typically actually does not), then victory is claimed. This is often followed by deliberately misstating the parameters... for example, the claim I ignored TWF with javelins... no, that's where the 8% success rate came from. Or the claim that barding was unfair. It was never included in the math. Never.

For both of you: Elric agreed to ref, he hasn't withdrawn that offer yet. Eldest has not accepted him. In the event Elric does back out, I'm fine with Lans reffing if Eldest is, although he has been involved in the Rogues suck argument quite a bit.

Eldest, do you accept Elric as ref? And Elric, are you still willing? If so, let's get a bloody move on already - it's no fun if the Rogue dies of starvation.

Frankly, don't care who refs. So Elric is cool with me for a ref. But you might want to be a bit more patient. This will take a week or two, most likely. Play by post does that.
If I have time, I'll address the rest of that post later.

[Emmerask]

Eldest, do you accept Elric as ref? And Elric, are you still willing? If so, let's get a bloody move on already - it's no fun if the Rogue dies of starvation.

Oh the rogue does not starve, he has knowledge local and knows where to buy food and get all the money he needs from his other useful skills: pickpocket, open lock, perform etc

[Turalisj]

Oh the rogue does not starve, he has knowledge local and knows where to buy food and get all the money he needs from his other useful skills: pickpocket, open lock, perform etc

Why do you need skills for that? The barbarian can just use his axe to break into a store and can obviously OHKO a guard because BARBARIANS DO EVERYTHING BETTA!

[Thebar99]

Eldest, I'm getting impatient because in addition to cat herding this thread is breaking down into trolling. I'm having to be very strict just to keep people focused.

So assuming Elric is willing to ref, we need someone not involved thus far to select a map of an indoor, multilevel area of moderate size and submit it to myself and Elric for approval. Again, I will almost certainly approve the first map picked that meets those criteria, which is just about any dungeon/tower/building.

[Emmerask]

Why do you need skills for that? The barbarian can just use his axe to break into a store and can obviously OHKO a guard because BARBARIANS DO EVERYTHING BETTA!

But wouldn´t THE BARBARIAN breaking into the store practically disintegrate the whole building plus everything inside it?

this thread is breaking down into trolling. I'm having to be very strict just to keep people focused.

We are having a serious discussion about the awesomeness of THE BARBARIAN here :-/

[JaronK]

What was this trying to prove again? Is it now a solo infiltration/assassination/stealing stuff scenario? I'm pretty lost at this point. It certainly couldn't show the Rogue to be the worst class in the game, as if you made a solo "just kill things" scenario for the CW Samurai I think that class would do worse...

JaronK

[Elricaltovilla]

I am still willing to referee the scenario. I will go ahead and post an IC and OOC thread in the next couple of minutes here.

If you would be so kind as to post the build requirements for the rogue here I would appreciate it.

Additionally, Thebar99 I'm going to request that you and Eldest keep your namecalling to a minimum on the threads I create. Talk of herding cats, strawmen and trolls will not be tolerated. I am serious when I say I expect you both to behave like gentlemen (or gentlewomen).

[Thebar99]

A strawman is a logical fallacy and herding cats just means people are disorganized. Only "troll" is namecalling. But fine.

He can be level 10, 32 PB, and use any official 3.5 material.

I will be using encounter(s) below level 10, and will not tell him if he will face one or multiple foes. I also will not tell you, until it comes time to submit the encounters/scenario.

[Elricaltovilla]

A strawman is a logical fallacy and herding cats just means people are disorganized. Only "troll" is namecalling. But fine.

I'm aware of that, but it doesn't particularly concern me whether they're actually insults or not. Thess threads don't go beyond rolls and IC dialogue.

He can be level 10, 32 PB, and use any official 3.5 material.

I will be using encounter(s) below level 10, and will not tell him if he will face one or multiple foes. I also will not tell you, until it comes time to submit the encounters/scenario.

What about WBL, Single class/multiclass, XP penalties, Level adjustment, Templates?

Additionally, what is the ultimate goal of the rogue character? I suggest retrieving a macguffin. Something kept in a safe or lockbox that is, once taken from said safe, easy to carry out of its location, no bigger than 1-2 lbs.

That way the rogue character can deal with the encounters in multiple ways, and if he chooses to avoid the guards on the way in, he will have to face them a second time on the way out, dealing with them as necessary.

[JaronK]

But is it supposed to be a solo run? I mean, if a character was going to be in a solo campaign, that at least he'd know in advance. He'd probably also know the overall style of the campaign (but not the specific encounters, obviously).

JaronK

[Thebar99]

I'm aware of that, but it doesn't particularly concern me whether they're actually insults or not. Thess threads don't go beyond rolls and IC dialogue.



What about WBL, Single class/multiclass, XP penalties, Level adjustment, Templates?

WBL is standard. 49k? I think it's 49k.

I dunno about classes. He's trying to prove Rogues are viable, I know the most you could possibly argue for is 2 levels (and it'd be demonstrably inferior to Monk 2). I don't care if he multiclasses, but don't think it proves anything about Rogues if he does. Especially if he does the obvious Rogue 1/Wizard 9.

If he really wants to make his point he'd just go Rogue 10 and try to use what little, bad abilities he has.

But if he does go multiclass, stick to the rules for favored class penalties. Yes, they suck and in any actual game I'd banish them to Hell instantly. But them's the rules, and a big part of "Rogues suck" is that the rules screw them over at every turn. So if that's a problem for him it's one more example.

LA and templates he should definitely avoid, as they'd obviously be doing all the work. LA 0 I'm fine with.

Additionally, what is the ultimate goal of the rogue character? I suggest retrieving a macguffin. Something kept in a safe or lockbox that is, once taken from said safe, easy to carry out of its location, no bigger than 1-2 lbs.

That way the rogue character can deal with the encounters in multiple ways, and if he chooses to avoid the guards on the way in, he will have to face them a second time on the way out, dealing with them as necessary.

Amusingly, retrieving an item was actually my idea. There is a catch though, and you'll understand what I mean when I submit the scenario to you.

Since we are finally getting somewhere, where is the thread? While "Rogues are the worst class" is on topic here, anyone that doesn't get it by now never will, so let's take it elsewhere.

[Callin]

To make it semi fair it needs to give options of In Combat Out of Combat Mundane and Magical obstacles. Of course circumvention and smart thinking should be encouraged to be an alternate way to "defeat" each obstacle.

That way it can be proved that it is the "worst" class and not be given a straight up encounter designed for a rogue to defeat.

[Elricaltovilla]

This is the OOC Thread

And this is the IC Thread

Anyone who cares is welcome to post in the OOC thread, but only Thebar99 and Eldest are approved to post in the IC thread.

[Emmerask]

I will be using encounter(s) below level 10, and will not tell him if he will face one or multiple foes. I also will not tell you, until it comes time to submit the encounters/scenario.

To be precise CR 6 is a challenging encounter for a solo lvl10 by raw

[molten_dragon]

Eldest, I'm getting impatient because in addition to cat herding this thread is breaking down into trolling. I'm having to be very strict just to keep people focused.

Considering this isn't your thread and you've pretty thoroughly derailed it, it's pretty arrogant to accuse others of not being focused and trolling.

So assuming Elric is willing to ref, we need someone not involved thus far to select a map of an indoor, multilevel area of moderate size and submit it to myself and Elric for approval. Again, I will almost certainly approve the first map picked that meets those criteria, which is just about any dungeon/tower/building.

I sent you and elric a map. Now please go away and discuss your challenge somewhere else.

[Turalisj]

To be precise CR 6 is a challenging encounter for a solo lvl10 by raw

A warblade can take on a CR10 opponent solo

[Elricaltovilla]

A warblade can take on a CR10 opponent solo

In theory the CR is set up so that any 10th level character has a 50% chance of beating a CR 10 challenge solo. Obviously though, no system is perfect.

[angry_bear]

Spoiler

Show

Well yes, presumably you actually try telling plausible lies. So if a guard spots you in an area meant to be off-limits, using bluff to convince him that you were just lost and oh thanks the gods he's here and does he know the way out is entirely valid and generally better than getting oneself arrested.

As for your second example, what, you've never seen the classic heroic ploy of 'you've left the safety catch on'? If a feint or a bluff gives you a momentary advantage, that's still an advantage. In this case, the enemy is slightly distracted and thus loses their dexterity bonus to AC for a round. Hey, guess what Rogues have that can turn that into a decided win?



There are steps in-between 'about to murder you' and 'willing to help you'. Diplomacy is for when you want to convince the irritated bouncer to let you in, or the cop to forgive your minor indiscretion, or the mob boss to loan you money. Or just about anything else.



Alternately, use it before combat to work out the capabilities of the enemy and whether you should engage or flee. Or when you spot interesting runes on the wall and want to get a clue as to what they might mean. Or when trying to stop an evil ritual and wanting to know how long you have before it is complete.

You seem to, again, be stuck in the mindset of 'if it doesn't help me stab this guy to death right now with no preparation, it is useless'.



He had an 8% chance in the fight because your calculations completely denied him any chance of using his sneak attack, or getting a surprise round, or in general doing anything else to tilt the chances in his favour. Just off the top of my head, by poisoning some steak and leaving it within the dog's scent range.



How does your mind even work? Even arbitrarily denied all his specialist options (like, for example, sneak attack being enabled when you flank an enemy, and thus much easier to do when you have friends), there is still a world of difference between 'cannot take these guys on his own' and 'cannot contribute in a fight against them'.



Really? REALLY? Did it occur to you that it might possibly be that the authors assumed that they didn't need to waste word count on saying 'people do not usually have all-round vision and thus it is possible to sneak up behind them with a good skill check', because only the most anal rules lawyer would try to use that in a serious argument?

We're getting into the territory of 'well the rules don't SAY you can't just keep fighting once dead'.



In what way? In what way is adding another half dozen odd dice onto your attack damage a 'laughable' DPS?



Or he could be using just some of those, because any of them have their own uses and just because it is an option doesn't mean he has to take it.


Or you need a DM willing to say 'yes' to a creative idea, rather than 'no, there's no rules for that'.

Here's a hint - such behavior crops up in most DM-guides as a good idea for a reason.



...and you are accusing us of using straw men? Nobody has said anything like that.

Was just listing a few ways that skills available to a rogue, particularly ones such as bluff can be used to keep NPC's off balance, and how that could come in handy.

Looking at the core classes in the 3.5 PH, I think that the monk class relies on the most factors to be good. I'm not going to say that it's the worst in the game, built correctly and it can be fantastic. However, considering that you need two primary abilities to be high (Dex and Wis), and one to be at least above average (str), you're going to have to play creatively and effectively to bring the best out in that class.

[Maugan Ra]

Additionally, what is the ultimate goal of the rogue character? I suggest retrieving a macguffin. Something kept in a safe or lockbox that is, once taken from said safe, easy to carry out of its location, no bigger than 1-2 lbs.

That way the rogue character can deal with the encounters in multiple ways, and if he chooses to avoid the guards on the way in, he will have to face them a second time on the way out, dealing with them as necessary.

If Thebar accepts that, once everything else has been resolved, then I for one will be amazed. Mostly because that was precisely what I was going for with the 'retrieve the necklace stolen by a bunch of bandits, now camped in a forest' setup.

Though I suppose the objection might have been that he didn't get to design the encounter himself, and thus it wasn't balanced. Because as we all know, no one can possibly make a scenario as balanced and level as Thebar99... unless of course he's personally trained them in his own methodology which everyone else for some reason disputes the sheer perfection of. Heathans.