D&D 5th Edition XV: Desperately Playing it Safe

[Just to Browse]

Thanks for Oracle Hunter for providing text that I can copy-paste.

As is (by now) well known to every RPGer who hasn’t spent the past year hiding under a rock, a new edition of D&D is coming out. When? Summer 2014. The playtest is officially closed, so if you were hiding under a rock then my apologies go out to you. Post a request for playtest materials in the thread!

Use this thread to discuss the old playtest, the weekly mostly-weekly Legends and Lore update articles from Mike Mearls, and other news relating to D&D’s new edition.

Useful links:

• D&D launch announcement for summer 2014
• Legends and Lore Archive
• EN World D&D Forum

Penny Arcade / PvP 5e Podcasts:

• Part 1 of 4
• Part 2 of 4
• Part 3 of 4
• Part 4 of 4

Previous threads:

• First Edition
• Second Edition
• Third Edition
• 3.5th Edition
• Fourth Edition
• D&D 5th Edition: the fifth edition of the discussion thread
• D&D 5th Edition: 6th Thread and counting
• D&D 5th Edition: Thread #7
• D&D 5th Edition: 8th Revision and counting
• Pathfinder, Next, and the Future of D&D
• D&D 5th Edition IX: Still in the Idea Stage
• D&D 5th Edition X: Where's the Craft (RPG System) skill?
• D&D 5th Edition XI: The 15-Minute Designer Workday
• D&D 5th Edition XII: Peasant Militias Can Defeat Smartphones?
• D&D 5th Edition XIII: An Inherently Unfinished Product
• D&D 5th Edition XIV: Hippy Druid Love, Baby!

[Oracle_Hunter]

I say "D&D Next XV: The DM is the Real Monster" for the title.

[Morty]

I still vote for "Desperately Playing it Safe".

[Stray]

To start off new thread: Mearls wrote couple articles about his design methods. Also, James Wyatt wrote something about how different setting will be represented in D&D Next (maybe, work in progress).

[obryn]

I still vote for "Desperately Playing it Safe".

ditto!

[Morty]

To start off new thread: Mearls wrote couple articles about his design methods. Also, James Wyatt wrote something about how different setting will be represented in D&D Next (maybe, work in progress).

Calling them "design methods" gives him entirely too much credit. I think the worst bit is the one about combat and how it shouldn't be complex enough to make anyone think about their next move for more than two seconds, though.

[SiuiS]

ditto!

Me three.

New thread title.

I read that announcement. "The rules are complete". It is as if millions of gamers cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. This does not bode well for the future of D&D.

Why? Because once the rough stuff was done and they could get down to brass tacks for a few months means they haven't done anything, at all, afterwards? Hell, they were working on this during the open playtest. That means that there were already two branches and only ours terminated. Your pithy despair is unwarranted, at least due to what you've seen.

'"Just like a perfectly balanced party"', which wizards got wrong in its editions of D&D.

Fourth edition had great party balance?

"Across multiple gaming platforms", meaning what exactly? Are we getting new computer games? New movies? New novels? New adult literature for D&D (Not that I know about that)? What does WotC mean?

Most likely, it's an open-system adventure like murder at Baldur's Gate.

[russdm]

My despair is because the playtest has a very "this is a start of our stuff and tweaking as we go along", more than "Here is a previous rules effort that we modified" feels to it since they were changing some significant things up between packets before settling some material in the latest ones. Plus, more of the recent playtests have a bit of a "3.5 with some changes with a dash of 4E thrown in" feel than a system that is duplicating stuff from the various editions.

I don't want or need another copy of 3.5 since there is already the main game plus pathfinder; For 3.5 I can just use it and pathfinder was always "Meh, its 3.5 with house rules tweaking and only partially worth getting interested in", plus pathfinder's core book costs something like $50 whereas Wizards was $34.99 for its core books. And I don't want to have to rely on the online SRD in order to actually play all the time. A hardcover lets me read the rules when I am away from my laptop or the internet which the online SRD makes impossible.

Wizards created a party of: a healer cleric, a blaster/controller type wizard, a fighter meat-shield damage dealer, and a skill-monkey rogue. They then built their versions of D&D around this party. If you change any of those roles or employ different concepts it quickly starts causing problems because apparently wizards don't think anybody would employ anything different from what they chose to use.

[Envyus]

As is (by now) well known to every RPGer who hasn’t spent the past year hiding under a rock, a new edition of D&D is coming out. When? Well, they’re not telling us. What they are giving us is an open playtest, which you can sign up for right here.

You do know that we can't sign up for the playtest anymore.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Calling them "design methods" gives him entirely too much credit. I think the worst bit is the one about combat and how it shouldn't be complex enough to make anyone think about their next move for more than two seconds, though.

The first article, "You shouldn't be able to obsolete an entire class with one spell", if a little obvious, at least has its head in the right place. Now if only the game actually followed that principle...

[Moreb Benhk]

I found that whole priority thing quite bizarre setting up a comparison with quite different types of things. And 'class features' aren't on the list at all. Frankly if you are comparing 'spells' to 'classes' it really feels to me like you are doing the whole design thing wrong. Surely the comparison is 'spells' and (other) 'class features', especially as spells themselves (if you want the powerful ones) are features obtained by investing in a class...

Unless they are saying that they want spells to always be strictly inferior to the class abilities of other classes...

And wait... what?

"Thinking about this complexity forced us to reconsider how we did things—so why not just use ability scores to make saving throws? This step removed jargon from the game and sped things up at the table. We kept saving throws, but we removed much of the complexity around them."

Saving throws are complex?

[Craft (Cheese)]

Yeah, apparently Fort, Ref, and Will saves (or defenses) are too complicated to remember, but budding Wizard, Druid, and Cleric players having thousands of spells to memorize is hunky-dory, because sacred cows. Which is especially ironic when you consider that he said this:

Putting everything on the table as potential fodder for the chopping block forces you to design toward efficiency and ease of use. It reminds you that complexity is a budget that you must spend on the parts of the game that offer the biggest rewards to DMs and players.

[Just to Browse]

You do know that we can't sign up for the playtest anymore.

I'll boil some water and cook that copypasta a little better. OP should be updated now.

[Balor01]

A few days ago I asked if there is any fully "fleshed out" (monster stats, maps and challnges/DCs) playtest module made for Next and SiuiS kindly suggested Return to Blingdenstone.

I read the thing and it indeed has all that I asked for except ... its purely dungeoncrawl. So ... I'd ask again for a fully fleshed-out adventure that is NOT just dungeoncrawl but something more along "goblins attacking village" or "dragon took the damsel" or something similar. I am looking for something that is not just "enter the dungeon, kill X and voila." Perhaps something similar to "Free adventures" for 3.5.

thanks

[SiuiS]

A few days ago I asked if there is any fully "fleshed out" (monster stats, maps and challnges/DCs) playtest module made for Next and SiuiS kindly suggested Return to Blingdenstone.

I read the thing and it indeed has all that I asked for except ... its purely dungeoncrawl. So ... I'd ask again for a fully fleshed-out adventure that is NOT just dungeoncrawl but something more along "goblins attacking village" or "dragon took the damsel" or something similar. I am looking for something that is not just "enter the dungeon, kill X and voila." Perhaps something similar to "Free adventures" for 3.5.

thanks

... You have to manage the social expectations and garrison of an underground gnome city while reclaiming it. You're fighting monsters out of a village, then helping to stick the gnomes. It's more refugee camp than happy fun sunshine city, but it's literally what you say you want. It just gives you only the bare bones for the city's inhabitants. You've got the respected elder with political ideas, the town leader who yearns for a crown, the fallen kingdom's Crown Jewels which grant the right to rule and are fought over, the taciturn medic who just wants everyone to shut up and fix things, and the baffled cleric who asks you to help solve why the gods have abandoned them. If that's not enough fodder for inter-city social encounters, I don't know what is.

[Slipperychicken]

I think the worst bit is the one about combat and how it shouldn't be complex enough to make anyone think about their next move for more than two seconds, though.

To be fair, combat needs to move faster. We get people complaining every so often about how players get bored in the >10 minutes before their turns come around again. I'd be willing to sacrifice some degree of simulationism to make it faster.

[Morty]

It's not really about simulationism. It's about making it interesting, and providing more options than "I swing/shoot again". It is a precarious balance to strike, but hacking off options and everything that looks remotely complex is not the way to go. Especially since, well, pages upon pages of available spells are still there.

[Oracle_Hunter]

To be fair, combat needs to move faster. We get people complaining every so often about how players get bored in the >10 minutes before their turns come around again. I'd be willing to sacrifice some degree of simulationism to make it faster.

That said, if you can plan out your turn before your turn (or, heaven forbid, have everyone be involved one very turn) you can have your cake and eat it to.

Again, not in 5e, but it's not like you can't build a better system that doesn't sacrifice tactical crunch for time.

[Scow2]

The only thing vaguely "dungeoncrawl" about the module is that it's underground. The map given is so generic/imprecise that it's not really good for anything other than showing what's connected to what and where places are in relation to each other. The only place in my playthrough that felt "Dungeoncrawly" were the former palace-thing and Final push against the orcs.

My only complaint is the quest that involves arming the gnomes - It's far too easy to be derailed from a "Chain of Deals" to "Blowing up a city"... with insufficient rules/maps/stuff to handle anything other than the safe Chain-of-deals approach (I think they expect the Beholder to take care of any uppity adventurers)

...are they really trying to speed up combat by making the mundane character options worse? The 'problem' is with the spellcasters, not the guys who can occasionally give themselves an extra simple action or are keen on move-attack-move-attack-move.

AND OH WHAT THE HELL WHY IS HE TRYING TO NERF THE IMPORTANCE OF FEATS? STAHP MIKEY STAHP!
... I really don't like his ranking system. The order should be Classes-Feats-Spells-Backgrounds-Race. Classes first is a good idea - but Feats, being the second-rarest resource (Without multiclassing. Multiclassing, it's the rarest), should have priorty over spells, which are common, and almost everything should have a priority over Race (Despite being rarest), which a lot of players pick for cosmetic/fluff purposes, not hard crunch.


EDIT: oh, not as bad as it looked, and I honestly agree with the principal - A round is only 6 seconds, and you need 2 of those to think and 4 to act on those thoughts. Move-attack-move-attack-move fits into that, as do most martial options. The problem is applying it to spellcasters.

[Slipperychicken]

That said, if you can plan out your turn before your turn (or, heaven forbid, have everyone be involved one very turn) you can have your cake and eat it to.

A lot of the players I've played with are for whatever reason unwilling to do this, sometimes deciding to check their media devices (texts, email, facebook) during "off time". That extra time spent thinking is a tradeoff.

[Oracle_Hunter]

A lot of the players I've played with are for whatever reason unwilling to do this, sometimes deciding to check their media devices (texts, email, facebook) during "off time". That extra time spent thinking is a tradeoff.

That's about as rude as checking your media during dinner or while playing charades

That's a people-problem, not a game problem.

[Perseus]

That's about as rude as checking your media during dinner or while playing charades

That's a people-problem, not a game problem.

Well now days it is less rude and more of a social norm. I dont like it in my games and I tell people up front that if they dont respond on their turn due to stuff like texting or being on facebook or something then their action is a full defense for the turn.

Slightly harsh but to many times the group got the wait a minute pointer finger in the air from someone on facebook.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Well now days it is less rude and more of a social norm. I dont like it in my games and I tell people up front that if they dont respond on their turn due to stuff like texting or being on facebook or something then their action is a full defense for the turn.

Slightly harsh but to many times the group got the wait a minute pointer finger in the air from someone on facebook.

Kids these days

If you're in a group activity, it is your responsibility to pay attention to what is going on. If that activity requires (or promotes) group participation at multiple phases of play, then you best be participating instead of "checking out."

If you're checking out because you're bored, well, bring that up with the Master of Ceremonies. But "checking out" just because the attention isn't currently on you is rude!

[Seerow]

My table used to have a really bad problem with some players playing flash games between their turns (curse you tower defense!).

After banning all electronics for a half dozen or so sessions, people got used to interacting normally, and we were able to ease the electronics back in for things like game reference, and haven't had a problem in the several years since (Though we also haven't had any new players in that time).

[Oracle_Hunter]

My table used to have a really bad problem with some players playing flash games between their turns (curse you tower defense!).

After banning all electronics for a half dozen or so sessions, people got used to interacting normally, and we were able to ease the electronics back in for things like game reference, and haven't had a problem in the several years since (Though we also haven't had any new players in that time).

I'll be honest: I'm no saint when it comes to this area either.

Spoiler: Anecdote

Show

For reasons of ease and economy, I keep all my character sheets on my laptop. Since I am usually the group's DM, I double as their Rules Encyclopedia so it helps to be able to look up things on the fly (through legitimate sources I assure you!).

But when it comes to D&D, I have absolutely nothing to do between my turns. In 3.X it was worst because I played a mundane character (so at higher levels I was usually out of the fight for rounds at a time) but if I wasn't playing a character with Immediate Actions in 4e I would just zone out during battles.

And yet I was frequently the quickest Player at taking my turn. Why? Because I knew what my character could do and was capable of quickly analyzing the current battlefield. So when my turn came up I'd glance at the battlemat, maybe ask one or two questions (e.g. "hey, anyone need a heal?") and then take my action.

But that's me. Some people can be raptly fixed in the game and still take minutes to declare a single Action. That said, I never tolerate distracted people at my tables. If it's my fault (and it often is) I do my best to bring the bored people back into the game. But I have been known to be quite harsh to people who deliberately "check out" at my table for no reason.

[Seerow]

I'll be honest: I'm no saint when it comes to this area either.

Spoiler: Anecdote

Show

For reasons of ease and economy, I keep all my character sheets on my laptop. Since I am usually the group's DM, I double as their Rules Encyclopedia so it helps to be able to look up things on the fly (through legitimate sources I assure you!).

But when it comes to D&D, I have absolutely nothing to do between my turns. In 3.X it was worst because I played a mundane character (so at higher levels I was usually out of the fight for rounds at a time) but if I wasn't playing a character with Immediate Actions in 4e I would just zone out during battles.

And yet I was frequently the quickest Player at taking my turn. Why? Because I knew what my character could do and was capable of quickly analyzing the current battlefield. So when my turn came up I'd glance at the battlemat, maybe ask one or two questions (e.g. "hey, anyone need a heal?") and then take my action.

But that's me. Some people can be raptly fixed in the game and still take minutes to declare a single Action. That said, I never tolerate distracted people at my tables. If it's my fault (and it often is) I do my best to bring the bored people back into the game. But I have been known to be quite harsh to people who deliberately "check out" at my table for no reason.

Yeah the delay factor is very much a hit and miss thing depending on the person. However, players not paying attention at all can be annoying even if they are able to make snap decisions due to playing characters with few options and the ability to quickly check the map and figure out what to do. For example, I think the point where we drew the line was during a climactic fight at some point one player looks up from his laptop and asks in all seriousness "Is the dragon dead yet?". If we'd prompted him with "Your turn" he would have gone ahead and taken a shot, and gone back to whatever he was doing, without any real disruption. But the sheer disrespect of paying so little attention during what should have been a pretty tense situation immediately threw everyone else out of the game.

Well that and the GM at that point got fed up and walked out. The next session was where we got serious about the issue.

[andresrhoodie]

Kids these days

If you're in a group activity, it is your responsibility to pay attention to what is going on. If that activity requires (or promotes) group participation at multiple phases of play, then you best be participating instead of "checking out."

If you're checking out because you're bored, well, bring that up with the Master of Ceremonies. But "checking out" just because the attention isn't currently on you is rude!

LOL I'm the DM and I text while everyone is deciding what to do and sometimes between turns at the end of the night.

Yeah gaming is fun but ultimately if my girlfriend texts me... well she's more fun then anyone else at that table. So I'm gonna answer. Just like we play at one of the players houses and if his GF comes out and asks him something or to help with something we take a pause for a few minutes.

Grown up life doesnt end when you sit down at table and our real life relationships and responsibilities are more important then a game.

If some DM told me to leave my phone at the door when the game started I would tell him to kiss me where its always dark and walk. Thats totally unreasonable.

[Just to Browse]

Yeah gaming is fun but ultimately if my girlfriend texts me... well she's more fun then anyone else at that table.

Burn, Heretic.

[Craft (Cheese)]

LOL I'm the DM and I text while everyone is deciding what to do and sometimes between turns at the end of the night.

Yeah gaming is fun but ultimately if my girlfriend texts me... well she's more fun then anyone else at that table. So I'm gonna answer. Just like we play at one of the players houses and if his GF comes out and asks him something or to help with something we take a pause for a few minutes.

Grown up life doesnt end when you sit down at table and our real life relationships and responsibilities are more important then a game.

If some DM told me to leave my phone at the door when the game started I would tell him to kiss me where its always dark and walk. Thats totally unreasonable.

There's a difference between "This game is not more important than real life" and "This game is not worth taking seriously in the slightest." Interrupting the game because your girlfriend's mother is in the hospital and you need to go support her is one thing: Interrupting the game because your girlfriend is lonely and wants to jabber on the phone with you for 20 minutes is another. If you can't put aside a few hours each week where you're free from distractions, then maybe roleplaying games aren't for you.

[SiuiS]

To be fair, combat needs to move faster. We get people complaining every so often about how players get bored in the >10 minutes before their turns come around again. I'd be willing to sacrifice some degree of simulationism to make it faster.

That's a problem with immersion, not system. You should be paying attention to what is happening. Every move affects your own.

A lot of the players I've played with are for whatever reason unwilling to do this, sometimes deciding to check their media devices (texts, email, facebook) during "off time". That extra time spent thinking is a tradeoff.

I find that quite irritating, /if/ tr person isn't capable of handling it. I am an adult. They are adults. This is an obligation; I have taken time out of my life that is not doing chores, not working, nt filig taxes, etc., to have time to sit and enjoy an engaging mental exercise and gamble with you. I expect you to have the same level of commitment, because this six hours? It is the only six hours this fortnight I have. It is disrespectful in the extreme to use up /my/ time doing things that you should be doing on your own.

It's a game, but it's also a game I have to bend my schedule as an adult to accommodate. That highschool phone checking passive aggressive competition stuff? Ten years ago sweetie, in highschool. Not here.

Well now days it is less rude and more of a social norm. I dont like it in my games and I tell people up front that if they dont respond on their turn due to stuff like texting or being on facebook or something then their action is a full defense for the turn.

Slightly harsh but to many times the group got the wait a minute pointer finger in the air from someone on facebook.

Aye. I have a friend whose DM has this thing, he'll go around the table and point, and shoot off 'move act pass move act pass pick!' And you pick something immediately. Stalling or 'uh' count as pass.

This highlights two things. One, shaking complacency. Two, tone and its effects. I've ramped up participation at my table simply by leaning in and talking fast, like I was excited. I try to prevent reclining and leaning back during engaging scenes because of somatopsychic feedback; relaxed postures cause relaxation and disinterest. Just getting into the game myself brought my players (and once, players and my DM) into the game with me.

A social cure for a social ill.

LOL I'm the DM and I text while everyone is deciding what to do and sometimes between turns at the end of the night.

Yeah gaming is fun but ultimately if my girlfriend texts me... well she's more fun then anyone else at that table. So I'm gonna answer. Just like we play at one of the players houses and if his GF comes out and asks him something or to help with something we take a pause for a few minutes.

Grown up life doesnt end when you sit down at table and our real life relationships and responsibilities are more important then a game.

If some DM told me to leave my phone at the door when the game started I would tell him to kiss me where its always dark and walk. Thats totally unreasonable.

There is no difference between adult life and game time. It is just like any other group activity. I of you show up to yoga class or Kung fu lessons, you stay off your phone. You show up to a dinner date, you stay off your phone. Your grandma shows up for a visit, you stay off your phone.

This is a group agreement to come together and get something done for the enjoyment of all. I have no time for social posturing like specifically showing Up to an agreed-on function and holding out. You want to not participate, don't show.

I'm not saying the game is all, or anything; we're here for fun. So if the entire game breaks down into old movie quotes, side conversations, reminiscing and ordering Chinese, cool! If the game is at a halt because any one person isn't mature enough to be invested in an activity that requires investment, the first time is understandable. After that, you are explicitly disrespecting everyone else there. You won't be coming back, no matter how feel-good telling me to shove my social contract into my digestive area might be.