Let the gender in games be moved here PLZ

[Jasdoif]

You see, there have been scenes with male characters being freaking awesome and badass solo. Like, the scenes that center specifically on their awesomeness on their own.

A good example which was not first brought up by me was Roy's arena fight with Thog.

There is only one female character who could have such a scene: Haley. It does not matter to me personally, as a girl, how high a percentage of male characters have got those scenes; what matters to me is, since that was established as a thing, I want a female character - who I, due to our shared gender, see as more or less a representation of me in the comic - to get one too.

At the time of that debate, she hadn't.

I would be remiss to let 470 go unmentioned.

[SaintRidley]

470 is good, but I do think that the most recent stretch of strips is definitely more comparable to Roy v. Thog than 470. The composition of this fight has a similar scope to that fight, rather than the single-strip 470, and involves going against the character's most hated nemesis in a situation where everything appears to be completely stacked against you.

Not saying 470 isn't awesome. It is. Just not a pants-crappingly awesome hero moment like Roy vs. Thog. The 970s? That's Haley's pants-crappingly awesome hero moment right there.

[pendell]

This post is a public service announcement.

Remember, folks, that when you use "female" as a noun to refer to humans, you sound either like an extraterrestrial anthropologist writing notes about your latest discovery. At best.

At worst you sound like this guy:



This post has been a public service announcement.

Am .. am I being lectured on how to sound human by a pony? How is this even ...?

Ah, well. If the meatbags mistake me for human then I guess it's not really a problem.

Tongue-in-cheek,

Brian P.

[Liliet]

...actually, at least as I interpreted it, he mocked them acting that way. Now, possibly I misread it.

He mocked it as "this normal thing that happens".
That is mock-worthy but also this normal thing that does not even have to align with the rest of characterization. Yes, a Good party will behave like this towards their female member(s). (I also remember V's orbs incident)
Like, it aligns with Belkar's characterization, but not actually anyone else's if we don't assume that it's a normal thing that literally everybody does...

But if in a work of fiction the women were never verbally, physically, and sexually assaulted/abused it would break verisimilitude because the real world just doesn't work that way.

^^^ shortcut to my point

470 is good, but I do think that the most recent stretch of strips is definitely more comparable to Roy v. Thog than 470. The composition of this fight has a similar scope to that fight, rather than the single-strip 470, and involves going against the character's most hated nemesis in a situation where everything appears to be completely stacked against you.

Not saying 470 isn't awesome. It is. Just not a pants-crappingly awesome hero moment like Roy vs. Thog. The 970s? That's Haley's pants-crappingly awesome hero moment right there.

^^^ also my point exactly

[Lissou]

I agree that gymnastics scene was pretty weird. It goes against the characterization of several of the characters (including Haley herself giggling about her top falling off) but yeah, it's a really old strip and there isn't much that can be done about it now.

And I saw the joke less about "those guys are acting immature" and more about "they're all lusting after her and she doesn't even notice!" which isn't that funny to me because it's representative of some very dark real-world issues, but when I first read it, I just skipped to the next comic and didn't worry about it more. I think it's a good comparison though to show how far the comic has come.

[Keltest]

^^^ also my point exactly

And a source of much frustration on my part. When you claim such a scene does not exist, one is then provided, but apparently its not good enough.

And for that matter, whats wrong with using your wits to solve a problem rather than your fists? Is Vaarsuvius suddenly a poor example for genderqueer characters because they have never thrown people five times their weight or more through a wall with their bare hands? And what about characters like Miko or Kazume, who have both had their moments? Do they not count because they aren't in the main cast?

[Rakoa]

And a source of much frustration on my part. When you claim such a scene does not exist, one is then provided, but apparently its not good enough.

And for that matter, whats wrong with using your wits to solve a problem rather than your fists? Is Vaarsuvius suddenly a poor example for genderqueer characters because they have never thrown people five times their weight or more through a wall with their bare hands? And what about characters like Miko or Kazume, who have both had their moments? Do they not count because they aren't in the main cast?

I don't quite understand. Lilliet hasn't said there is any problem with Haley using her wits rather than her fists, and actually referred to that encounter (via quote) as Haley's pants crappingly awesome hero moment or whatever. Agreed on Miko and Kazumi, though.

And I love the mental image of Vaarsuvius throwing Roy through a wall with some Elven wrestling technique. Preferably in a WWE arena.

[Keltest]

And I love the mental image of Vaarsuvius throwing Roy through a wall with some Elven wrestling technique. Preferably in a WWE arena.

Id pay to see that. Maybe next time Rich is bored he can doodle it for us.

[Gwynfrid]

You see, there have been scenes with male characters being freaking awesome and badass solo. Like, the scenes that center specifically on their awesomeness on their own.

A good example which was not first brought up by me was Roy's arena fight with Thog.

There is only one female character who could have such a scene: Haley. It does not matter to me personally, as a girl, how high a percentage of male characters have got those scenes; what matters to me is, since that was established as a thing, I want a female character - who I, due to our shared gender, see as more or less a representation of me in the comic - to get one too.

At the time of that debate, she hadn't.

It would seem that you bemoan the lack of scenes with Haley as a freaking awesome badass solo. Seriously?

[SaintRidley]

Those are great individual strips. Nothing wrong with them. But they're not extended sequences of pants-crappingly awesome heroism where Haley uses her wits and her skills to best a nemesis. What we're seeing right now in the comic? That is. And if people were complaining that Haley needed to be bailed out, that undercuts her abilities as a hero and prevents her from being as pants-crappingly awesome a hero as we have been watching her be over the past several strips.

[happycrow]

Well, no - it just means they're complaining.

[zimmerwald1915]

But they're not extended sequences of pants-crappingly awesome heroism where Haley uses her wits and her skills to best a nemesis.

That's a very specific list of elements. I count five:

1) The sequence must be extended over multiple strips;
2) The sequence must be driven by a character's heroics;
3) The heroics must include the use of wits;
4) The heroics must include the use of skills;
5) The heroics must culminate in the besting of a nemesis.

Why this specific list? Why, in particular, is the length of the sequence important? Why, if each element is so critical, did no one complain that any of Gwynfrid's example strips failed to include one or more of them at the time the strips were released?

Well, no - it just means they're complaining.

Or it means their memory of earlier strips is poor, or it means they haven't read earlier strips at all, or it means they got so focused on the moment that they didn't bother to think back to earlier strips . . .

[Keltest]

Those are great individual strips. Nothing wrong with them. But they're not extended sequences of pants-crappingly awesome heroism where Haley uses her wits and her skills to best a nemesis. What we're seeing right now in the comic? That is. And if people were complaining that Haley needed to be bailed out, that undercuts her abilities as a hero and prevents her from being as pants-crappingly awesome a hero as we have been watching her be over the past several strips.

If that is the standard to which we are holding it, then Roy is the only character who has gotten one. And you seem to be forgetting that a significant portion of that sequence was not Roy being an awesome hero so much as as Thog's workout equipment. And finally, Roy is the main character of the story, and Rich explicitly included that sequence to show that Roy's claims of being more than a meatshield with a giant weapon are true.

[snowblizz]

and Rich explicitly included that sequence to show that Roy's claims of being more than a meatshield with a giant weapon are true.

Also, Giant explicitly included the entire sequence because he wanted to write and draw a gladiator style combat.

[Gwynfrid]

Those are great individual strips. Nothing wrong with them. But they're not extended sequences of pants-crappingly awesome heroism where Haley uses her wits and her skills to best a nemesis. What we're seeing right now in the comic? That is. And if people were complaining that Haley needed to be bailed out, that undercuts her abilities as a hero and prevents her from being as pants-crappingly awesome a hero as we have been watching her be over the past several strips.

See Zimmerwald's and Keltest's replies above. I can only add this: Haley is portrayed consistently as every bit the action hero Roy is, actually more frequently so. There are the examples I showed, plus of course #470, plus the current sequence. She has more strips showcasing sheer skill than anybody else in the comic, and she routinely outsmarts every other major character. The only reason Roy is the main protagonist is that the story begins as his personal quest.

[pendell]

Hmm .. as far as being badass I would say Haley is more of a badass than Elan is. Elan has his dashing swordsman prestige class but he's wildly erratic, at turns incredibly competent and then laughable in the very next strip. He's also been held hostage at least once more than Haley has (back when Kubota gave Therkla the 'hero's choice').

By contrast, Haley is competent all the time. She's not always flashy but c'mon, she's a rogue. If a rogue is flashy or standing out , she's doing something wrong.

If I had to pick one person from OOTS to partner with on and adventure, and ONLY one, I'd take Haley. She's skillful all the time, unlike Elan. She's got common sense, unlike Vaarsuvius. And unlike Roy, she isn't excessively proud, she's much better than he at spotting cons, and she's willing to do whatever it takes to get the job done. So as far as I'm concerned, she's a keeper, better than Roy in any situation except an actual hand-to-hand combat where raw power counts for more than anything.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Liliet]

I agree that gymnastics scene was pretty weird. It goes against the characterization of several of the characters (including Haley herself giggling about her top falling off) but yeah, it's a really old strip and there isn't much that can be done about it now.

And I saw the joke less about "those guys are acting immature" and more about "they're all lusting after her and she doesn't even notice!" which isn't that funny to me because it's representative of some very dark real-world issues, but when I first read it, I just skipped to the next comic and didn't worry about it more. I think it's a good comparison though to show how far the comic has come.

^^^yes


And now I see people arguing /against/ my point by citing examples that Haley is pants-crappingly awesome despite her class.

Let's rewind a bit to the argument that started this for me: people were explaining that Haley CANNOT beat this encounter alone because her class is just not suited for this, and her teammates interfering would be not just acceptable, but in fact necessary.

Apparently, for them, all the examples provided above that Haley is pants-crappingly awesome were not enough to be convinced that she could pull off a badass hero moment on her own.


Before that, I never complained that Haley didn't get her own badass moments. It never crossed my mind. However, when the strip started building up to one, and people came out of woodwork with arguments that she can't get one?
Yeah, that made me think.

[goodpeople25]

^^^yes


And now I see people arguing /against/ my point by citing examples that Haley is pants-crappingly awesome despite her class.

Let's rewind a bit to the argument that started this for me: people were explaining that Haley CANNOT beat this encounter alone because her class is just not suited for this, and her teammates interfering would be not just acceptable, but in fact necessary.

Apparently, for them, all the examples provided above that Haley is pants-crappingly awesome were not enough to be convinced that she could pull off a badass hero moment on her own.


Before that, I never complained that Haley didn't get her own badass moments. It never crossed my mind. However, when the strip started building up to one, and people came out of woodwork with arguments that she can't get one?
Yeah, that made me think.

Okay i just want to put this out there on Haley vs Crystal Gnomeland edition.
I at least could not see her brute forcing her way through crystal. Also the last panel of the previous strip looked like she was about to die in a couple rounds and I didn't think she could beat the grapple. I did think diplomacy or leading crystal to Bozzok was possible. but I thought Haley lost her chance and was going to die or be saved by the calvary and i did not think it farfetched or bad that her teammates would bail her out. Haley getting out on her own was preferable but i did not see her getting out by grappling and she was being choked so no diplomacy. But of course i forgot about the one factor that could get her out, i forgot about the knife.
Is it so bad that i overlooked a factor? Is it so bad that I like Haley and don't want her to die if her party could save her? Is wanting her to be saved by her teammates really so bad if I thought she was going to die otherwise?

[happycrow]

Liliet, that's a severe mischaracterization of the discussion.

Bulldog said "please don't damsel in distress this."
Other people said "meh, teamwork, nobody expects the rogue to out-melee a cyborg killing machine, won't bother me."
Other people (including myself) said "she doesn't need to out-melee it in order to win."
The drones got distracted and haven't shown up yet.
And then the thread went into its usual tailspin as everybody with a chip in that game started talking past each other, choosing to interpret each others' statements in lights that were never intended, and generally straw-manning each others' posts, etc etc ad nauseam infinitam. Just like always happens here.

[johnbragg]

Let's use The Order of the Stick, because it's the thing that we're most familiar with, and let's shuffle Vaarsuvius over to one side just for economy of message.

Take the remaining five menbers of the Order. If, from day one, Rich had of written this story with Roy, Elan, Haley, Belkar and Durkon all having their genders swapped... what difference would it actually make? The story would have all the pronouns swapped, and some of the more gender-laden insults would need to be changed, and the small bit here or there would be a different... but other than that? What does it matter?

Are you genuinely willing to argue that, had Roy/Elan/Durkon/Belkar been female, and Haley been male, you as a reader would have found the strip alien or unintelligible or uncomfortable or weird or unfamiliar or unrelatable or (whatever word you want, pick yer poison)... to the extent that as a reader you'd have been alienated to the point of not reading it? Do you actually believe that?

Well... your loss. Imma go read Rat Queens now.

Alien, unintelligible, uncomfortable, weird, unfamiliar, unrelatable? No. Different, yes. OOTS started as the adventures of a standard-issue D&D party, complete with token female character (player). Swapping everyone's gender changes all of that, as much as making all-but-one of the party halflings, or gestalt paladins, or Tier 3 classes. OOTS-at-the-beginning was a (pretty accurate) representation of the standard D&D party at most tables. Most tables were pretty psyched to transition from 2E to 3E, or to come back to D&D with 3E. Most tables transitioned from 3E to 3.5 without much complaint (except from Belkar's player.) In 2015, that table is less representative, but probably still a plurality.

Making OOTS an Amazon party would have been moving away from the standard, and immediately raised the question "why"? In a way where not-answering would be interpreted as an answer.

Roy's blackness and V's androgyny didn't raise those questions immediately because of the early OOTS art style. Roy's blackness isn't expressed in anything but skin tone, since it's nearly impossible to express real-world race in RPGs without using racial and racist stereotypes, except through realistic art where you can tell Denzel Washington from Robert Redford without using color shading. (Just stating color isn't enough--no one codes ebony-skinned drow as "black".)

[johnbragg]

Liliet, that's a severe mischaracterization of the discussion.

Bulldog said "please don't damsel in distress this."
Other people said "meh, teamwork, nobody expects the rogue to out-melee a cyborg killing machine, won't bother me."
Other people (including myself) said "she doesn't need to out-melee it in order to win."
The drones got distracted and haven't shown up yet.
And then the thread went into its usual tailspin as everybody with a chip in that game started talking past each other, choosing to interpret each others' statements in lights that were never intended, and generally straw-manning each others' posts, etc etc ad nauseam infinitam. Just like always happens here.

As a DM, I would have given Haley XP for staying alive and staying up long enough until she could lead Crystal to the "cavalry", and for drawing Crystal away from the civilians. Solo'ing Crystal through clever use of bluff and diplomacy (setting aside Bandana for now) is a bonus.

[Jasdoif]

If that is the standard to which we are holding it, then Roy is the only character who has gotten one. And you seem to be forgetting that a significant portion of that sequence was not Roy being an awesome hero so much as as Thog's workout equipment. And finally, Roy is the main character of the story, and Rich explicitly included that sequence to show that Roy's claims of being more than a meatshield with a giant weapon are true.

Also, it's at least questionable whether Thog counts as Roy's nemesis.

Apparently, for them, all the examples provided above that Haley is pants-crappingly awesome were not enough to be convinced that she could pull off a badass hero moment on her own.


Before that, I never complained that Haley didn't get her own badass moments. It never crossed my mind. However, when the strip started building up to one, and people came out of woodwork with arguments that she can't get one?
Yeah, that made me think.

It made you think...what, exactly?

The drones got distracted and haven't shown up yet.

Well, that lightning tank budget's gotta be justified somehow, and it's never going to fairly beat the drones to the scene....

[zimmerwald1915]

If that is the standard to which we are holding it, then Roy is the only character who has gotten one. And you seem to be forgetting that a significant portion of that sequence was not Roy being an awesome hero so much as as Thog's workout equipment. And finally, Roy is the main character of the story, and Rich explicitly included that sequence to show that Roy's claims of being more than a meatshield with a giant weapon are true.

Not quite. Vaarsuvius v. Zz'dtri qualifies unless either 1) you believe Zz'dtri that it was Yukyuk who defeated him, not Vaarsuvius, or 2) you don't consider Vaarsuvius's use of her skills (as opposed to her wits, which is a separate element, and her snark, which is not an element at all) "pants-crappingly awesome." For what it's worth, we're not supposed to believe Zz'dtri, and awesomeness is subjective.

[dancrilis]

Before that, I never complained that Haley didn't get her own badass moments. It never crossed my mind. However, when the strip started building up to one, and people came out of woodwork with arguments that she can't get one?
Yeah, that made me think.

Weren't all the 'arguements' that she a) didn't need one, b) didn't detract from her character if she didn't get one, c) unlikely to be badass.

Frankly Haley's tactic is smart, in character, and delivered well - but it is not exactly badass.

I mean really can you see that Movie Action Hero/Heroine who is a legitimate ass kicker, is in the fight of his/her life and ... talks the enemy down, than walks with them back to their base and watches as they pick a fight with a (likely still) much stronger character.

I can still see this backfiring on Haley - which also does not detract from her getting out of the situation in the first place.

[Keltest]

Not quite. Vaarsuvius v. Zz'dtri qualifies unless either 1) you believe Zz'dtri that it was Yukyuk who defeated him, not Vaarsuvius, or 2) you don't consider Vaarsuvius's use of her skills (as opposed to her wits, which is a separate element, and her snark, which is not an element at all) "pants-crappingly awesome." For what it's worth, we're not supposed to believe Zz'dtri, and awesomeness is subjective.

I smirked a bit, but I felt that the awesomeness was undercut by V being punted to the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing (as did V).

[johnbragg]

Weren't all the 'arguements' that she a) didn't need one, b) didn't detract from her character if she didn't get one, c) unlikely to be badass.

Frankly Haley's tactic is smart, in character, and delivered well - but it is not exactly badass.

I mean really can you see that Movie Action Hero/Heroine who is a legitimate ass kicker, is in the fight of his/her life and ... talks the enemy down, than walks with them back to their base and watches as they pick a fight with a (likely still) much stronger character.

I can still see this backfiring on Haley - which also does not detract from her getting out of the situation in the first place.

Harrison Ford's "The Fugitive", trying to convince Tommy Lee Jones of his innocence while, er, being a fugitive?

Luke Skywalker at the end of Return of the Jedi?

Convincing the implacable, powerful enemy that they should be squishing someone besides you is not THAT uncommon.

[Keltest]

Harrison Ford's "The Fugitive", trying to convince Tommy Lee Jones of his innocence while, er, being a fugitive?

Luke Skywalker at the end of Return of the Jedi?

Convincing the implacable, powerful enemy that they should be squishing someone besides you is not THAT uncommon.

Not uncommon, sure, but I would hardly call Luke getting electrocuted a lot "badass".

[dancrilis]

Harrison Ford's "The Fugitive", trying to convince Tommy Lee Jones of his innocence while, er, being a fugitive?

Luke Skywalker at the end of Return of the Jedi?

Convincing the implacable, powerful enemy that they should be squishing someone besides you is not THAT uncommon.

There is a difference between badass and awesome.

I am dubious as to whether begging your daddy to solve your problems counts as either (can easily I suppose count as one/both for your daddy).
Luke's badass moment was actually defeating Vader.

Haley's moment here was awesome (thought I think she might come to regret her silent background gloating), it is not badass.

Now badass and awesome is subjective - so feel free to disagree.

[brian 333]

Weren't all the 'arguements' that she a) didn't need one, b) didn't detract from her character if she didn't get one, c) unlikely to be badass.

Frankly Haley's tactic is smart, in character, and delivered well - but it is not exactly badass.

I mean really can you see that Movie Action Hero/Heroine who is a legitimate ass kicker, is in the fight of his/her life and ... talks the enemy down, than walks with them back to their base and watches as they pick a fight with a (likely still) much stronger character.

I can still see this backfiring on Haley - which also does not detract from her getting out of the situation in the first place.

I find it exceptionally badass. The hero uses her strengths against her opponent's weaknesses to win. With Roy it's literal strength, (or constitution, in his particular case, as he performed a Rocky rather than a Tyson,) With Vaarsuvius it's Intelligence, in figuring out the foe's plan and thwarting it, in Elan's it would be plain dumb luck, (otherwise known as dramatic timing,) and in Haley's it's her ability to fast talk her way out of anything.

Each of the characters is unique, and comes to any challenge from a unique perspective. To have them all face a challenge in the same way Roy would is not reasonable: each should fight with their best stat for the situation. Roy's Str was useless against Thog, so he went to his best stat for that fight: his Int. Haley's Dex score won't help much against a golem, so she went to her best stat for the situation: her Cha.

You don't always have to kill the monster to get the XP.

[goodpeople25]

Not quite. Vaarsuvius v. Zz'dtri qualifies unless either 1) you believe Zz'dtri that it was Yukyuk who defeated him, not Vaarsuvius, or 2) you don't consider Vaarsuvius's use of her skills (as opposed to her wits, which is a separate element, and her snark, which is not an element at all) "pants-crappingly awesome." For what it's worth, we're not supposed to believe Zz'dtri, and awesomeness is subjective.

True but it was as keltest said it was kinda a mutual defeat, and if you accept that, you could say haley getting crystal to the Calvary counts, though durkons death could count then.