Physical gods?

[Amaril]

Recently playing Dark Souls 3 has gotten me thinking about a concept that game's world uses that I've never paid much attention to: gods existing alongside mortals in the ordinary world. In Dark Souls, the gods don't live in some inaccessible other realm--they're just there, living alongside their human worshipers. You can go talk to them, you can fight them, you can kill them. At the same time, though, they are undeniably gods, immensely powerful and ruling over forces of the natural world, even if they don't exist apart from it.

How do you imagine a world like this might look? I know there are other examples, though I'm not really familiar with any of them--can anyone fill me in on some? How might you go about creating a world that used this idea?

[Madokar]

It would be harder to get away with things, that's for sure. One of the benefits of having the gods live in the outer planes is that they can't do whatever they want in the mortal plane. If the gods actually live in the mortal plane, then they would be influence the world through will alone. And going against anyone aligned with a god would most likely bring that god's wrath down on the offending party's head.

[Koo Rehtorb]

I'd say the gods would tend to keep to their home cities/main temple most of the time. If they're out roaming the world they run a bigger risk of getting caught in a fight with other hostile gods and being killed. Their main seat of power would probably have some sort of defenses that make attacking them in it infeasible.

They'd probably compete for influence from their seats of power, and those seats of power would look very strange, mortal life being heavily influenced by the presence of the divine walking the streets there.

[Final Hyena]

Given how insane people can get about their sports team I can see it getting very aggressive.
Then again I can actually easily see it going a far more subtle route.

I guess there are lots of variables.
You need to determine the personality of these gods along with the source of their power. If they are "human" they are unlikely willing to incite conflict with one of the few creatures that could end their existence, however if the gods are spread out enough then they are liable to develop a superiority complex as they are surrounded by pitiful beings, such over confidence is a good way for conflicts to arise, but the moment one god kills another most others are less keen to take the risk once their "mortality" has been highlighted.
Another key aspect is whether their source of power can be damaged/stolen. Is it an artefact or piece of land that can be tarnished or is it more innate. With the former you are more likely to create a state of paranoia resulting in very strict rules.

One thing that is very common among those with powers, a fear of losing it. Thus like any other they will seek to increase their power, develop loyal followers and undermine others strength. Of course the interesting part is in the how. Each god will undoubtedly have their own preferred methods which can result in very different cultures. For example one god might focus on his own training which might encourage a more spartan like society, another might see the value in volume. Thus he seeks population growth, but does he do it with a quality of life enticing others, or does he focus on increasing the birth rate or tackling disease?

Consider their own personal strengths/weaknesses as well as the environment they live in.

[Segev]

Look at some of the ancient city-state cultures, and empires like Persia and Egypt; they were ruled, in theory, by god-kings, who were believed to be and worshipped as exactly that kind of god.

[Max_Killjoy]

It would be harder to get away with things, that's for sure. One of the benefits of having the gods live in the outer planes is that they can't do whatever they want in the mortal plane. If the gods actually live in the mortal plane, then they would be influence the world through will alone. And going against anyone aligned with a god would most likely bring that god's wrath down on the offending party's head.

That presumes omniscience and omnipotence (to some degree).

If the gods are not automatically aware of all things, and not automatically able to act in all places instantly, then "can't get away with things" ceases to be an issue.

[Madokar]

That presumes omniscience and omnipotence (to some degree).

If the gods are not automatically aware of all things, and not automatically able to act in all places instantly, then "can't get away with things" ceases to be an issue.

Even so, if a god found out about you defying or opposing them in some way, you'd be in for a world of hurt.

[Max_Killjoy]

Even so, if a god found out about you defying or opposing them in some way, you'd be in for a world of hurt.

Gods constrained to the physical world of a D&D-like setting wouldn't be much different from a level-20 wizard, or a great elder dragon, or...

[Madokar]

Gods constrained to the physical world of a D&D-like setting wouldn't be much different from a level-20 wizard, or a great elder dragon, or...

And those examples can't bring the pain? Even if you could fight them, it would be difficult.

[Max_Killjoy]

And those examples can't bring the pain? Even if you could fight them, it would be difficult.

If this is a D&D setting, then it's functionally no different than any of those other examples, and the quirks of the setting aren't changed.

If those other things can "bring the pain", and someone does something "against their interest", then the ways the DM deals with that situation are no different regardless of whether it's epic wizard, ancient dragon, or an "earthbound" deity.

Epic is epic.

[Madokar]

If this is a D&D setting, then it's functionally no different than any of those other examples, and the quirks of the setting aren't changed.

If those other things can "bring the pain", and someone does something "against their interest", then the ways the DM deals with that situation are no different regardless of whether it's epic wizard, ancient dragon, or an "earthbound" deity.

Epic is epic.

Precisely. And epic means a challenge at the very least and a dance with death at the very worst.

[Amaril]

I have a concept I'm toying with for a world of Sufficiently Advanced Technology in which the so-called gods were once a human-like species who became biologically immortal and gained immense power through genetic engineering. They created other, weaker sentient species to serve and worship them, and rule the world from their fortified temple-palaces, where they seldom interact directly with any but their most trusted followers. While they don't all get along, they refrain from fighting each other directly, mostly because their population is seriously threatened after millennia of fighting off invasions by gigantic alien monsters that want to consume the world, and they can't afford to be killing each other off too. When they do fight, it's through mortal proxies. They're far from omniscient or omnipotent, and since they generally see mortals more like tools than beings worthy of respect, they don't usually intervene in their lives all that much on a personal scale.

I guess it's fairly close to what Koo Rehtorb was describing, and some of Final Hyena's suggestions. Any thoughts?

[Madokar]

I have a concept I'm toying with for a world of Sufficiently Advanced Technology in which the so-called gods were once a human-like species who became biologically immortal and gained immense power through genetic engineering. They created other, weaker sentient species to serve and worship them, and rule the world from their fortified temple-palaces, where they seldom interact directly with any but their most trusted followers. While they don't all get along, they refrain from fighting each other directly, mostly because their population is seriously threatened after millennia of fighting off invasions by gigantic alien monsters that want to consume the world, and they can't afford to be killing each other off too. When they do fight, it's through mortal proxies. They're far from omniscient or omnipotent, and since they generally see mortals more like tools than beings worthy of respect, they don't usually intervene in their lives all that much on a personal scale.

I guess it's fairly close to what Koo Rehtorb was describing, and some of Final Hyena's suggestions. Any thoughts?

I don't want to burst your bubble, but that sounds very similar to Warhammer 40k. If you tweak it a little and make it your own thing, then power to you.

[J-H]

So, like, this guy?

[Amaril]

I don't want to burst your bubble, but that sounds very similar to Warhammer 40k. If you tweak it a little and make it your own thing, then power to you.

I guess you're right, though I'm riffing more on Xenogears than anything else with the concept in general.

So, like, this guy?

Not familiar, though I gather by the URL that he's from Stargate.

Believe me, I'm well aware what I'm describing isn't original on its own

[Max_Killjoy]

Precisely. And epic means a challenge at the very least and a dance with death at the very worst.

So what makes these "earthbound gods" special, compared to the epic dragon or wizard or warlord?

Why would the DM ever throw these deities at the players as a threat or challenge in any situation where he wouldn't have already thrown an epic threat at them?

If "threatening the interests" of these deities is such a risk, why isn't exactly the same risk to threaten the interests of entities just as powerful and just as present in the physical world of the typical D&D setting?

[Madokar]

So what makes these "earthbound gods" special, compared to the epic dragon or wizard or warlord?

Why would the DM ever throw these deities at the players as a threat or challenge in any situation where he wouldn't have already thrown an epic threat at them?

If "threatening the interests" of these deities is such a risk, why isn't exactly the same risk to threaten the interests of entities just as powerful and just as present in the physical world of the typical D&D setting?

I guess it has more to do with the collateral damage. Like I said before, usually the gods are confined to the outer planes and can only make their will known through their clerics. If the gods inhabit the same world, they don't need the clerics to let their will be known.

At any rate, regardless if they can be fought or not, they can still do damage to the world if they are pressed enough. Epic level threats usually keep to their own devices unless disturbed or it is opportune for them. Gods generally have plans, which would mean they'd be proactive in achieving their goals in the mortal plane.

I guess it boils down the whole God Complex issue. If someone or something has enough power to see themselves as superior to the average mortal, it won't take much for them do whatever they want. The fact that they can freely interact with the world makes it even more precarious.

[Max_Killjoy]

I guess it has more to do with the collateral damage. Like I said before, usually the gods are confined to the outer planes and can only make their will known through their clerics. If the gods inhabit the same world, they don't need the clerics to let their will be known.

At any rate, regardless if they can be fought or not, they can still do damage to the world if they are pressed enough. Epic level threats usually keep to their own devices unless disturbed or it is opportune for them. Gods generally have plans, which would mean they'd be proactive in achieving their goals in the mortal plane.

I guess it boils down the whole God Complex issue. If someone or something has enough power to see themselves as superior to the average mortal, it won't take much for them do whatever they want. The fact that they can freely interact with the world makes it even more precarious.

Which takes us right back to the aforementioned epic threats that already exist in many settings.

Why don't they have "god complexes" given that they're just as powerful, relative to the vast majority of mortal beings?

[Xuc Xac]

Most religions in the real world were like this: "The gods live on top of that mountain over there except the sea god who lives underwater and the smith god who lives in that smoking volcano over there."

[2D8HP]

I like it!
I'm very partial towards "one world" fantasy settings that have "The Realm of the Gods", and the "Land of the Dead" be places that may be reachable by climbing/sailing far enough.
It just feels more "mythic" that way.

[Amaril]

Most religions in the real world were like this: "The gods live on top of that mountain over there except the sea god who lives underwater and the smith god who lives in that smoking volcano over there."

I like it!
I'm very partial towards "one world" fantasy settings that have "The Realm of the Gods", and the "Land of the Dead" be places that may be reachable by climbing/sailing far enough.
It just feels more "mythic" that way.

Yeah, but even that way isn't exactly what I'm thinking of. In Greek mythology, even if Olympus is connected to the mortal world, it always feels very much like another, separate realm--isn't it supposed to be impossible for a mortal to reach the home of the Olympian gods uninvited? Whereas in Dark Souls, to go back to that example, Anor Londo, the city of the gods, is literally just a normal city that humans can go to, where the gods happen to live (it's been sealed by the time of the games and is no longer so easily accessible, but ordinary humans lived there alongside the gods in the setting's past).

[JenBurdoo]

One of my favorite series in this vein is Tales of the Branion Realm by Fiona Patton. It's basically medieval Britain (the map, cultures, and place names are quite similar) but with the monarch having literal divine right and being a Christ-like avatar of her god. The god is called the Living Flame, and inhabits its sacred "Vessel" kind of like a symbiotic parasite -- and there's no doubt it exists or that it has chosen the monarch, because she has fiery eyes and vaguely defined flame powers. All the royal family do, and the eyes grow dimmer with distance from the throne. This means (a) that bastardy doesn't matter, because if you're royal you can't hide it, and (b) whether you're male or female doesn't matter -- the Flame goes by closeness to the previous monarch, so a elder female will inherit before a younger male. There's very much an impression of the Flame being some sort of alien or primordial creature that can't really comprehend how humans think. Not to mention that humans aren't designed to contain it. Roughly half the monarchs in the backstory have died young, gone insane, committed suicide or been assassinated.

It leads to very interesting plots.

- What do you do if God is your mother (and is being abusive)?
- What do you do if God is a five-year-old child and can destroy a village with a temper tantrum?
- What do you do if God has converted to the opposing religion? (The answer: seduce God and raise his firstborn in the correct faith so as to get the throne back when he dies.)

[Gildedragon]

They're there; they're vast and powerful but they're not Gods in the JC sense; they're not totipotent but have their powers limited by area or aspect... or if vastly powerful they live in the supreme manifestation of their domain: the ocean god lives in the deepest reaches of the abyss, the earth god in a vast cavern at the heart of the world, etc...
smaller gods would be like the gods in princess mononoke (the giant animals, not the nightwalker, which would be a more intermediate god... and even then, limited in area)
They exist in the world and don't necessarily care much for the goings on of mortals; their children might, however: demigods, culture heroes, god emperors, and unbeatable champions...

[BlueHerring]

Yeah, but even that way isn't exactly what I'm thinking of. In Greek mythology, even if Olympus is connected to the mortal world, it always feels very much like another, separate realm--isn't it supposed to be impossible for a mortal to reach the home of the Olympian gods uninvited? Whereas in Dark Souls, to go back to that example, Anor Londo, the city of the gods, is literally just a normal city that humans can go to, where the gods happen to live (it's been sealed by the time of the games and is no longer so easily accessible, but ordinary humans lived there alongside the gods in the setting's past).

You could have the gods have special territories with unique properties that are based on their own philosophical outlook. Like a mountain that has a peak that's infinitely far away if you're trying to go for the destination, but becomes almost immediately if you realize that the journey is more important.

This also reminds me of Qaf from Exalted. It's a mountain that just keeps going forever. And ever. And ever.

[Xuc Xac]

Yeah, but even that way isn't exactly what I'm thinking of. In Greek mythology, even if Olympus is connected to the mortal world, it always feels very much like another, separate realm--isn't it supposed to be impossible for a mortal to reach the home of the Olympian gods uninvited?

Most bronze age deities were treated like uranium fuel rods. Their power is obvious (nobody doubts Zeus because they've seen his lightning). You can see the temple building where they dwell and you can even go inside, but you can't go into the reactor core/"holy of holies" where the uranium/deity resides. It's forbidden to anyone except the high priests who can only go in there while wearing their special vestments and after performing the proper rituals. If someone were to barge in uninvited, the gods would smite them down by their very presence.

[RickAllison]

Most bronze age deities were treated like uranium fuel rods. Their power is obvious (nobody doubts Zeus because they've seen his lightning). You can see the temple building where they dwell and you can even go inside, but you can't go into the reactor core/"holy of holies" where the uranium/deity resides. It's forbidden to anyone except the high priests who can only go in there while wearing their special vestments and after performing the proper rituals. If someone were to barge in uninvited, the gods would smite them down by their very presence.

Heck, there was a legend about one of Zeus's consorts, Selene, mother of Dionysius, who died because no matter how small he tried to make his true radiance, Zeus's natural form incinerated her. The gods don't need to Smite mortals, they can kill by simply walking about and being seen.

[Xefas]

I know there are other examples, though I'm not really familiar with any of them--can anyone fill me in on some?

In Exalted, Terrestrial Gods are just kinda hangin' out, collectin' worshipers, bein' jerkasses. They're significantly more powerful than the average human, are immortal, and can become immaterial, and that's pretty much it - otherwise, they're just like people. They mostly spend their time terrorizing mortals to get their worship. Like, hey guys, if you don't build a temple to me and start worshiping, no rain this year. They like being worshiped, but gaining power from worship doesn't make them special - any old human can do that, if they've got people earnestly praying to them. They sort of have domains - like a harvest god or a rain god, but they can switch domains if there's an opening, or absorb the domain of an absent god, and stuff. They're not set in stone.

If a god doesn't go all ethereal and float away, if they just remain flesh and blood, a mortal army can give them a seriously bad time. As can sorcerers and, pre-3rd-edition, martial artists as well. And, of course, the titular Exalted, mortal demigods, can range in power from simply giving them pause to seriously making them crap themselves and run away.

The largest empire in the world, the Scarlet Dynasty/The Realm, is powerful enough that they've brought all the Terrestrial Gods in their domain to heel, and force them all to behave and maintain their domains like good little deities, and each one is apportioned a holiday and given a stipend of prayer, as directed by priests around the Realm.

Outside the Realm, being a mortal really really sucks, and the gods are a big reason for that. They're not above just walking into a village and stabbing random children until they get what they want, because who's going to stop them? And often times, the answer is 'the Player Characters'.

Celestial Gods live in their own separate plane of existence (not infinite, IIRC it's the size of Australia or something), Yu-Shan. They, too, can be stabbed to death just like anybody else, but they tend to be more powerful than Terrestrial Gods, and they live in a whole city of spirits and deities, and they've got bodyguards and probably live in little gated communities, so good luck with that. Unlike Terrestrial Gods, they get worship from more abstract things - the Celestial Goddess of Love gets prayer-energy from people being in love, for example, while the Celestial God of All Murder gets prayer-energy when people murder each other, so there's no reason for them to go down to earth and start roughing people up for their spiritual lunch money. Some of them are unemployed and homeless, and Yu-Shan has the equivalent of soup kitchens and homeless shelters for down-on-their-luck divinities.

[Milo v3]

How do you imagine a world like this might look? I know there are other examples, though I'm not really familiar with any of them--can anyone fill me in on some? How might you go about creating a world that used this idea?

I've run games in a setting where the gods are in the material plane and can be interacted with like anyone else. I've even had players be play as gods in those settings. Led to players using diplomacy abit more than my other campaigns since it added the option of talking with the concept itself or the river or the city to solve the issues they are facing.

[Segev]

In Exalted, Terrestrial Gods are just kinda hangin' out, collectin' worshipers, bein' jerkasses. They're significantly more powerful than the average human, are immortal, and can become immaterial, and that's pretty much it - otherwise, they're just like people. They mostly spend their time terrorizing mortals to get their worship. Like, hey guys, if you don't build a temple to me and start worshiping, no rain this year. They like being worshiped, but gaining power from worship doesn't make them special - any old human can do that, if they've got people earnestly praying to them. They sort of have domains - like a harvest god or a rain god, but they can switch domains if there's an opening, or absorb the domain of an absent god, and stuff. They're not set in stone.

If a god doesn't go all ethereal and float away, if they just remain flesh and blood, a mortal army can give them a seriously bad time. As can sorcerers and, pre-3rd-edition, martial artists as well. And, of course, the titular Exalted, mortal demigods, can range in power from simply giving them pause to seriously making them crap themselves and run away.

The largest empire in the world, the Scarlet Dynasty/The Realm, is powerful enough that they've brought all the Terrestrial Gods in their domain to heel, and force them all to behave and maintain their domains like good little deities, and each one is apportioned a holiday and given a stipend of prayer, as directed by priests around the Realm.

Outside the Realm, being a mortal really really sucks, and the gods are a big reason for that. They're not above just walking into a village and stabbing random children until they get what they want, because who's going to stop them? And often times, the answer is 'the Player Characters'.

Celestial Gods live in their own separate plane of existence (not infinite, IIRC it's the size of Australia or something), Yu-Shan. They, too, can be stabbed to death just like anybody else, but they tend to be more powerful than Terrestrial Gods, and they live in a whole city of spirits and deities, and they've got bodyguards and probably live in little gated communities, so good luck with that. Unlike Terrestrial Gods, they get worship from more abstract things - the Celestial Goddess of Love gets prayer-energy from people being in love, for example, while the Celestial God of All Murder gets prayer-energy when people murder each other, so there's no reason for them to go down to earth and start roughing people up for their spiritual lunch money. Some of them are unemployed and homeless, and Yu-Shan has the equivalent of soup kitchens and homeless shelters for down-on-their-luck divinities.

Not to mention, in practice, that the Exalted themselves kind-of live the god-king role, when and where they choose to. The more experienced (and thus more powerful) ones really are physical gods, and act pretty much how you might expect human rulers with the power of gods to act.

[LibraryOgre]

In Greyhawk, a few different gods lived on the Prime and were relatively accessible. Iuz, for example.