Class and Level Geekery XV - What's the Damage of a Thrown Pineapple?

[Ephemera]

Valhalla is not the LG plane though - it's the CN (with very mild Good tendencies) plane.

I could see Durkon being slated for Valhalla, not because of his alignment, but because of his deity - if Thor is "CG but allows LG clerics" - then, per Complete Divine, as an extremely devoted follower of a deity, "deity's realm afterlife" overrides "afterlife appropriate for alignment".

In the intro to Blood Runs In The Family, Durkon explains why he wants to go to Valhalla despite not being CG - it gives him a chance to "cut loose and have fun" - that living the ultra-LG live, doesn't give.

It's possible that most LG dwarves who "hope for Valhalla" are fervent worshippers of deities that choose to reside there regardless of their actual alignments.

It's also possible that OOtS dwarves use "Valhalla" to refer to their afterlife of choice.

The problem, though, is that we know for a fact that OOtS afterlife doesn't follow RAW, at least for dwarves, so we can't really be sure exactly what Hilgya is implying. Therefore, I think that while it's a a clever bit of deduction to figure out her alignment based on what she says, there's enough doubt about the mechanics of it (be it the location of OOtS Valhalla, or what plane OOtS dwarves go to) that I don't think it's enough to contradict the other evidence we have for Hilgya being evil.

I do think that we probably have to forget about trying to prove she's evil because of what she did to her husband, though, per the thread FAQ.

[knag]

The contradiction remains: she says that she (as CE or CN) would end up in Valhalla with all the dwarves that are LG. That cannot be the case if Durkon is right, and dwarves do go to the plane or their alignment.

Where does she say that other dwarves end up in Valhalla? She just says that's where she wants to be, not that LG dwarves go there. There is no contradiction.

[hamishspence]

It's also possible that OOtS dwarves use "Valhalla" to refer to their afterlife of choice.

Maybe. Roy does (using the old 2e names) describe the afterlives in a way that makes them sound like the Great Wheel:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html

Combined with the fact that Arcadia and Tartarus have received namedrops - it makes me think that "Valhalla" is simply Ysgard from the 3.5 DMG.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Where does she say that other dwarves end up in Valhalla? She just says that's where she wants to be, not that LG dwarves go there. There is no contradiction.

She makes a distinction between the lounge "upstairs" and the beer hall where everyone yells. The beer hall (and the fact the place is Valhalla) definitely sounds like the place Thor worshipers end up in - i.e. everyone else.

GW

[hamishspence]

The beer hall (and the fact the place is Valhalla) definitely sounds like the place Thor worshipers end up in - i.e. everyone else.

Actually, we know some dwarves worship Odin - because we saw a dwarven cleric of Odin in Origin of PCs.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Actually, we know some dwarves worship Odin - because we saw a dwarven cleric of Odin in Origin of PCs.

And I would imagine a few more worship Freya and the other gods. But the gross majority seem to be Thor followers. Even if not all dwarves end in Valhalla and only Thor-worshipers do, that still doesn't explain how a CE (or CN) Loki follower ends in the same plane as LG-CG Thor followers if they are all supposed to go to their alignment plane.

Now, it might be that all this only applies to clerics/highest devotees of the respective deities, because it turns out that Valhalla is Odin's place, and his two children still live with their parents, as you suggested, and the bulk of the dwarves do end up in the mountain with Roy's family. No way to tell yet. It still feels weird though - although based on the quote from BRitF you mentioned, I'm now more inclined to believe that Durkon was wrong when talking to Malak.

GW

[Jasdoif]

Now, it might be that all this only applies to clerics/highest devotees of the respective deities, because it turns out that Valhalla is Odin's place, and his two children still live with their parents, as you suggested, and the bulk of the dwarves do end up in the mountain with Roy's family. No way to tell yet. It still feels weird though - although based on the quote from BRitF you mentioned, I'm now more inclined to believe that Durkon was wrong when talking to Malak.

I just now reread Durkon's preface in Blood Runs in the Family; and Durkon says Valhalla is a benefit to worshipping Thor over Odin, so "Valhalla is Odin's place" doesn't seem to work out. (Nor does my not-really-serious "Valhalla is a transplanar stronghold" theory).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I just now reread Durkon's preface in Blood Runs in the Family; and Durkon says Valhalla is a benefit to worshipping Thor over Odin, so "Valhalla is Odin's place" doesn't seem to work out. (Nor does my not-really-serious "Valhalla is a transplanar stronghold" theory).

But Loki followers also end there? Bloody hell, I'm really confused about how this works now. Back to thinking it might be Hilgya the one that is wrong and doesn't really know how this will shake out.

GW

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Back to thinking it might be Hilgya the one that is wrong and doesn't really know how this will shake out.

This is how I’m taking what Hilgya says, at least for now. At the very least, I’m not sure she can be taken as a solid source quite yet.

Or maybe only Loki and Thor dwell on Valhalla, not Odin?

[The MunchKING]

But Loki followers also end there? Bloody hell, I'm really confused about how this works now. Back to thinking it might be Hilgya the one that is wrong and doesn't really know how this will shake out.

GW

OTOH DURKON is the one with the criminally low Knowledge: Religion score. Maybe his preface is the thing that's wrong and MOST Northern Dwarves in Honorable standing go to Valhalla.

[Aquillion]

Or Thor is CG, allows LG clerics, and overrides where you end up per the rules for deities that allow clerics with conflicting alignments. Hilgya knows this and knows that a huge number of Thor-worshiping dwarves end up in Valhalla as a result, while she expects to get there for being CN (whether she really is or not.) That would fit with RAW and with everyone's statements so far.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Or Thor is CG, allows LG clerics, and overrides where you end up per the rules for deities that allow clerics with conflicting alignments. Hilgya knows this and knows that a huge number of Thor-worshiping dwarves end up in Valhalla as a result, while she expects to get there for being CN (whether she really is or not.) That would fit with RAW and with everyone's statements so far.

Again: if Valhalla is CG, by standard OotS rules (not RAW) a CN shouldn’t end there. And if instead every dwarf ends there because that’s a consequence of the bet, the Durkon was incorrect when he said that once past Hel dwarves did get to go to their corresponding alignment plane.

GW

[hamishspence]

It isn't CG though - it's on the CG/CN border. Some people there will be CG. Some will be CN. And some will be some other alignment entirely - but getting in anyway - because they're fervent devotees of a deity that lives there, and deities have their own rules for their followers.

[Jasdoif]

And some will be some other alignment entirely - but getting in anyway - because they're fervent devotees of a deity that lives there, and deities have their own rules for their followers.

Which goes back to Durkon saying dwarves that die with honor go the Outer Plane matching their alignment, and whether we have cause to discard that as an error on Durkon's part.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It isn't CG though - it's on the CG/CN border. Some people there will be CG. Some will be CN. And some will be some other alignment entirely - but getting in anyway - because they're fervent devotees of a deity that lives there, and deities have their own rules for their followers.

“It’s on the border” is not something that can happen in OotS. There’s not even a hint that people with differing alignments can end in the same place.

It is less clear whether devotee do end up in their god’s special place, but then what is weird is that Loki and Thor share the place

GW

[hamishspence]

There are more planes, than there are alignments. As Roy says:

"heaven or hell, limbo or nirvana, valhalla or the abyss, or a dozen in between".

Fits with the Great Wheel. 18 or so alignment planes, not 9.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There are more planes, than there are alignments. As Roy says:

"heaven or hell, limbo or nirvana, valhalla or the abyss, or a dozen in between".

Fits with the Great Wheel. 18 or so alignment planes, not 9.

Sure, but that means the LG people that lean L get their own place, not that they have to share it with LN. More planes means more subdivisions, not shared neighborhoods.

GW

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Take a Lawful Good person with Lawful Neutral tendencies, and a Lawful Neutral person with Lawful Good tendencies. Neither is particularly religious. Neither is a dwarf.

Do they go to the same afterlife (Arcadia)? If they don't, does the LN(LG) one automatically get downgraded to Mechanus, or does the LG(LN) one automatically get upgraded to Celestia?

In OotS? No idea. But given how often we’ve been told that you end in the plan matching your alignment, I find it more likely they’d be two separate subplanes, one for each of those cases, than LN and LG individuals ending up sharing, since by definition you can only fit in one alignment, and that plane therefore can’t fit two.

GW

[hamishspence]

Take a Lawful Good person with Lawful Neutral tendencies, and a Lawful Neutral person with Lawful Good tendencies. Neither is particularly religious. Neither is a dwarf.

Do they go to the same afterlife (Arcadia)? If they don't, does the LN(LG) one automatically get downgraded to Mechanus, or does the LG(LN) one automatically get upgraded to Celestia?

Even the Outsider races that reside in Arcadia, differ in alignment. Formians are Always LN. Arcadian Avengers are Usually LG.

But then, Formians are happy to reside on any Law-aligned plane.

[Jasdoif]

In OotS? No idea. But given how often we’ve been told that you end in the plan matching your alignment, I find it more likely they’d be two separate subplanes, one for each of those cases, than LN and LG individuals ending up sharing, since by definition you can only fit in one alignment, and that plane therefore can’t fit two.

OotS-wise, I like to imagine Arcadia is where you end up if the bureaucracies of LN Mechanus Nirvana and LG Celestia both determine that you certainly belong on one of them, but can't come to an agreement on which.

[D.One]

I personaly like to view Hilgya's statement about Valhalla under the lens that dwarves use the word "Valhalla" the same way we tend to use "Heavens", as in a desirable afterlife, in oposition to Hel(l), which fits well with the nordic theme of the Northern Pantheon.

[Aquillion]

Which goes back to Durkon saying dwarves that die with honor go the Outer Plane matching their alignment, and whether we have cause to discard that as an error on Durkon's part.

I think that that's a somewhat tenacious reading of Durkon's statement. RAW Valhalla is a CG / CN border plane, so it matches both alignments and someone who goes there has gone to an Outer Plane matching their alignment, fitting Durkon's statement. At worst it's him giving a quick one-sentence summary to someone with no Knowledge (Religion).

“It’s on the border” is not something that can happen in OotS. There’s not even a hint that people with differing alignments can end in the same place.

Miko was told she could visit her horse.

Beyond that, like I said above, I think that reading Durkon's statement as "there is exactly one and only one plane for each alignment, and these planes are in a one-to-one relationship with the alignments and everyone goes to the one and only one plane that matches their alignment, and no other alignments" is reading far too much into it.

Turning it around, though: We go by the assumption of RAW unless we have some indication otherwise, right? Is Durkon's statement the only indicator we have that is leading people to speculate that OOTS Valhalla might be non-RAW? Because I feel it's not really strong enough to support that.

[zimmerwald1915]

Miko was told she could visit her horse.

Point of order: Miko was told her horse could visit her.

[hamishspence]

Point of order: Miko was told her horse could visit her.

And The Giant did bring up that Windstriker, not being a dead soul, can visit other planes - with permission from the paladin he's assigned to - or on his own initiative if he doesn't have one:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...7&postcount=34

Windstriker is not a dead soul, he is a living Celestial creature; he is not bound by the same rules. He needs a pass because he is in the service of the Twelve Gods and will likely be assigned to another paladin at some point, from whom he must get permission before going on a trip. If he were unemployed, he would be free to go to whatever plane he could find a way to travel to. Dead souls have no such freedom.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

I'm not an expert on 2/3/.5e mechanics, but wouldn't Serini need at least 13 Charisma in order to be even able to consider taking a level of Paladin?

[hamishspence]

I'm not an expert on 2/3/.5e mechanics, but wouldn't Serini need at least 13 Charisma in order to be even able to consider taking a level of Paladin?

"Prime requisite requirements" are a thing in older editions, not 3rd ed/3.5. There are no minimum stat requirements - though in practice, a casting stat too low, for a spellcaster, makes them effectively unusable.

Generally speaking, nobody wants to play an Int 8 wizard, for example.

Low Charisma makes some of a paladin's class features not function well (Divine Grace, for example)

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm

But if the player wants a low Charisma paladin, they can have one. Their spellcasting, at least, is Wisdom-dependant, not Charisma-dependant.

[b_jonas]

I'm not an expert on 2/3/.5e mechanics, but wouldn't Serini need at least 13 Charisma in order to be even able to consider taking a level of Paladin?

I don't think so. O-Chul has taken a few Paladin levels with little Charisma.

Update:

"Prime requisite requirements" are a thing in older editions, not 3rd ed/3.5.

Half of the core classes (Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Paladin) have alignment requirements though. And several feats have a minimum ability score as a prerequisite, either directly, or by requiring the ability to cast spells of a certain level, or by requiring another feat with such a prerequisite. For example, Roy has the Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave and Improved Sunder feats, which require at least 13 Strength; the Combat Expertise and Improved Disarm feats, which require at least 13 Intelligence; the Improved Grapple feat which requires at least 13 Dexterity. If you take lots of Fighter levels with low attribute scores, you're screwed, because Fighter gives you bonus feats that you can only spend on feats from a short list, most of which have some similar requirement. Haley has the Improved Precise Shot feat, which requires 19 Dexterity; Elan has the Dodge and Mobility and Spring Attack feats which each require 13 Dexterity. It seems like that sort of requirement is common.

[danielxcutter]

Realized V is level 15 now, not 16th: Forcecage is an Evocation spell, so the duration would be affected by the +1 CL from specialization.

[zimmerwald1915]

Realized V is level 15 now, not 16th: Forcecage is an Evocation spell, so the duration would be affected by the +1 CL from specialization.

Specialization doesn't give +1 CL in 3.5. Some domains do, including the Good domain that Durkon had when he was alive. But specialization only gives you an extra spell prepared each spell level.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The level boost is from the ioun stone Blackwing is wearing as a bracelet. Well, anklet.