How strong would be a modern soldier in a fantasy setting?

[Selion]

I mean, what CR would you give to a full equipped modern soldier?
Let's take a USA marine as example, they're equipped with an M16, which has the following features (wiki):
Rate of fire:
700–950 rounds/min cyclic sustained
45–60 rounds/min semi-automatic
(note that box magazine is from 20 to 100 rounds, usually they shot in 3 rounds series, i guess a 3 round serie could be considered a standard attack)
Effective firing range
550 m (601 yd) (point target)[16]
800 m (875 yd) (area target)[17]

Some models are usually equipped with a grenade launcher, which also has impressive range, comparing to d&d standards.

They are well trained in melee combat and I guess their body armor would confer a good protection against melee weapons, though a magic sword would probably be effective.
What I've trouble with is their physical stats, I consider D&D characters super heroes: to have a comparison, a black bear has 32 HPs, i don't think it would be fair giving to a common human more than 15-20 HPs (which would make them level 2-3 by D&D standards).

BONUS QUESTION: What about an attack chopper? Would it be able to take down a adult dragon?

[Conradine]

In my opinion, it would be able to take down opponents up to CR 6. Mabye even more, if the opponents are giants or dire beasts. A good DR would be his bane.

Modern artillery would take down everything unable to become incorporeal.

[Malroth]

Lv 3 Elite Array Expert (better nutrition than medieval peasants better education)
Weapon equivalent to a +5 Mighty 3 Brilliant energy Splitting Distance greatbow.
Gains Darkvision from gear


My guess would be CR5 after adjustment for unusual equipment. Can kill from far outside the range of even long range spells but is completely shut down by fog, darkness, invisibility, illusions, or wind wall. Also Poor will saves.

[DodermanDefense]

Provided we're using d20 Modern, then the modern soldier would have a CR based on his/her level. While modern firearms and materials certainly are superior to those used in most fantasy settings, there is nothing in the training of a marine that prepares them to deal with magic or a breath weapon.
If that soldier is a level 1-3 (probably a conservative guess for rank and file guys) then you could expect them to perform about as well as fighter or a wizard of the same level.
Sure, the weapon is powerful, but it's ammunition dependent. Can he get more after he runs out? Grenades and modern medicine would be finite as well. And modern medicine isn't anywhere near as good as evencure light wounds.
Moving on to armor- modern body armor excels at slowing and stopping bullets and shrapnel from explosions, but really ain't the greatest against blades (without plates, which are VERY heavy).
If we're talking about a ranged battle, one where magic isn't involved, then my money is on the modern soldier. That said, he's going to very quickly run out of supplies.
When it comes to dragon vs helicopter, that's again a highly situational outcome. If the chopper crew are a bunch of elite aces, and the dragon is a wyrmling, then the helicopter is going to turn the dragon to swiss cheese. If the chopper crew are a bunch of n00bs, and the dragon is even a little mature, the chopper's going down.
You do know there's an entire modern setting, right? And you also know that there are d20-compatible stats for things like modern weapons and armor, right?

[DodermanDefense]

In my opinion, it would be able to take down opponents up to CR 6. Mabye even more, if the opponents are giants or dire beasts. A good DR would be his bane.

Modern artillery would take down everything unable to become incorporeal.

Modern artillery would be useless against any character with Evasion and a decent Reflex save. Same with automatic firearms and grenades.

[DodermanDefense]

Lv 3 Elite Array Expert (better nutrition than medieval peasants better education)
Weapon equivalent to a +5 Mighty 3 Brilliant energy Splitting Distance greatbow.
Gains Darkvision from gear


My guess would be CR5 after adjustment for unusual equipment. Can kill from far outside the range of even long range spells but is completely shut down by fog, darkness, invisibility, illusions, or wind wall. Also Poor will saves.

Not so much Darkvision, much more like lowlight if you're talking about NVGs. Which are battery dependent. More like lowlight vision without peripheral vision.
Not sure where the ridiculous magic bow stats come from. M-16 looks like this...
M-16; 2d8 damage, 20x2crit, 80ft range increment, 30-round box magazine.
Average soldier (even with elite array) would likely have around a +4 or +5 to hit with it.
An impressive weapon and a dangerous opponent, but not an invincible one.

[Eldan]

I mean, that's the stats that d20 modern gives them, but I'm not sure those stats can be exactly transfered. For example, I rather doubt that a modern assault rifle really only deals twice the damage a bow does. And not even per shot, but in six seconds. And the d20 armor system is really wonky too, how much is chainmail really going to help against a rifle? Would it realistically turn 20% of hits harmless?

[Silvercrys]

I mean, what CR would you give to a full equipped modern soldier?
Let's take a USA marine as example, they're equipped with an M16, which has the following features (wiki):
Rate of fire:
700–950 rounds/min cyclic sustained
45–60 rounds/min semi-automatic
(note that box magazine is from 20 to 100 rounds, usually they shot in 3 rounds series, i guess a 3 round serie could be considered a standard attack)
Effective firing range
550 m (601 yd) (point target)[16]
800 m (875 yd) (area target)[17]

Some models are usually equipped with a grenade launcher, which also has impressive range, comparing to d&d standards.

They are well trained in melee combat and I guess their body armor would confer a good protection against melee weapons, though a magic sword would probably be effective.
What I've trouble with is their physical stats, I consider D&D characters super heroes: to have a comparison, a black bear has 32 HPs, i don't think it would be fair giving to a common human more than 15-20 HPs (which would make them level 2-3 by D&D standards).

BONUS QUESTION: What about an attack chopper? Would it be able to take down a adult dragon?

Yeah, I mean, you could try to model real world weapons based on the stats they have in the real world, but I agree with Doderman, I'd just use the stats from d20 Modern. The game isn't really a simulation of real life, DnD characters are closer to superheroes than medieval soldiers and fighting a modern soldier with a gun wouldn't be much different than fighting a ranger a bow or something.

I'd probably allow the modern soldier to use d20 Modern rules for automatic weapons attacking an area and stuff like that, but I wouldn't try to "simulate" a modern era machine gun by giving it the stats of a magic longbow with Splitting.

The Modern SRD is here.

[Efrate]

Do not mix d and d and real life on a mechanical level. Full stop. Never works. By the rules yes you can negate an assault rifle 20 per cent of the time with chainmail. You are not THAT good as a modern soldier in comparison, and a level 5 practicing expert craftsman can take a 3 round burst in center of mass and be mostly unaffected and healed fully in a few days. With no armor.

[Telonius]

They had some sci-fi-ish weapons in Return to Temple of the Frog. That might be a good start for modeling modern weaponry.

[Willie the Duck]

Provided we're using d20 Modern, then the modern soldier would have a CR based on his/her level. While modern firearms and materials certainly are superior to those used in most fantasy settings, there is nothing in the training of a marine that prepares them to deal with magic or a breath weapon.

Original GammaWorld had this thing where you could port your character into a D&D game and/or a D&D character into a GammaWorld game. Thing is, everyone from GammaWorld didn't have saving throw scores... and they failed any save they were presented with (which emulated them being systematically unprepared for a world with magic). Likewise, the D&D characters had no resilience to GammaWorld's radiation-induced mutation effects.

Not so much Darkvision, much more like lowlight if you're talking about NVGs. Which are battery dependent.

I'm assuming we are talking about a soldier magically summoned for a fight, not one who has wound up in the D&D world and has to figure out how to exist without modern resupply. Once you do that, it becomes a one of those Robinson Crusoe 'how much of the modern world could you recreate?' scenarios (which are their own kind of fun, but which don't intersect much with how much D&D damage a M16 would deal).

[DodermanDefense]

Do not mix d and d and real life on a mechanical level. Full stop. Never works. By the rules yes you can negate an assault rifle 20 per cent of the time with chainmail. You are not THAT good as a modern soldier in comparison, and a level 5 practicing expert craftsman can take a 3 round burst in center of mass and be mostly unaffected and healed fully in a few days. With no armor.

Everyone always forgets that in Modern, massive damage is your constitution score. That means that m-16 on 3-round burst has a very good chance of dealing massive damage to a level 5 of any class.
Having said that, mixing your modern and fantasy, or fantasy and sci-fi, must be a carefully calculated move. Sensibilities and tastes of individual groups should be considered.

[Selion]

I read a lot of people are quoting d&d modern, I think these are rules balanced to represent modern battles, not modern vs fantasy battles.
Pathfinder, for example, has firearms rules, in that ruleset a 1600 age mosquete neglets any kind of armor (even magical ones) at 30 ft.
I didn't ask for a simulation, I'm just trying figuring out in a narrative perspective how much dungerous a modern soldier would be if placed in a fantasy world.
I agree with the CR 5-6 guess, i think 4 level 5 PCs would be evenly matched with 4 marine soldiers, if magic is used in a smart way
Level 7-8 would be overkill on the fantasy part, IMHO, spells like improved invisibility and dimension door would easily dispatch the modern group.

[Silvercrys]

They had some sci-fi-ish weapons in Return to Temple of the Frog. That might be a good start for modeling modern weaponry.

They have rules for bog standard modern firearms in the DMG, I'm pretty sure, though they aren't part of the SRD. It's basically the same as d20 modern weapon stats without the automatic fire rules, though, as I recall.

Thinking more, if you want stats for armed helicopters you'll probably have to build them using the d20 Future Starship rules or something because they only have an unarmed Blackhawk in the actual SRD. But you could also just take the Blackhawk stats, bump the Hardness to 10 and/or the HP a bit, and give it a rocket launcher and heavy machine gun from the heavy weapons list.

It could probably take a wyrmling or very young dragon with those stats (46 HP, Hardness 10, AC 6, Size Gargantuan, Machine Gun deals 2d12 damage and Rocket deals 10d6). It'll take a few uses of the dragon's breath weapon to shoot the helicopter down and the helicopter can probably outmaneuver it in the air because the dragons have pretty bad maneuverability. 2-3 rockets should get the job done, or a few combat rounds of shooting it with the machine gun (kills the dragon in 4 hits on average, dragon has a hard time breaking the helicopter's hardness and dies before it gets a second breath weapon off). Young and Young Adult are a bit of a crap shoot, think the Young Dragon is evenly matched and the Young Adult probably has the edge. They still have a bit of trouble breaking hardness 10 and they still need 2-3 breath weapons to kill the helicopter, but they're sacks of hit points so the helicopter needs closer to ten rockets and a whole lot more machine gun.

Past that, though, pretty sure dragon takes over. An Adult Blue nearly destroys the helicopter with just the average damage on its first breath weapon use and handily breaks Hardness 10 with its attacks on anything other than minimum damage rolls and has over 200 HP, meaning if the first breath weapon doesn't outright destroy the helicopter it doesn't have the firepower to destroy the dragon before the second one comes up unless it does nothing but shoot rockets each round, never misses, and rolls high on its damage rolls. Anything older than adult is a pure stomp in the dragon's favor.

As an aside, the modern soldier is probably CR+1 due to equipment like his weapons dealing really high base damage at longer range increments and being able to attack areas.

Edit: If you really wanted you could them touch attacks against medieval armored opponents within the first range increment, I don't think it's really necessary though. Pathfinder's firearms deal the same damage as bows but hit more often, d20 modern's guns deal more damage and hit the same amount, it's just different ways of emulating the same thing. Should probably drop one of the weapon's damage dice (2d12 becomes 1d12, etc.) if you do that, though.

Edit 2: Our modern soldiers are probably the equivalent of level 4-6 characters in d20 modern anyway, how "dangerous" they are depends mainly on how accurate they are and how many hit points they have when you simulate them. Using the d20 modern rules and giving them 5 class levels makes them... about the equivalent of level 5 PCs. Sounds about right, yeah?

[Telonius]

For an older Dragon, I'm thinking it gets next to the helicopter, and grabs on to the bottom with its claw. Then it Alternate Forms or Polymorphs into a human, chucks the pilot out, and flies it back to its hoard.

[Calthropstu]

On the soldier, he'd be a cr 6 with the grenade launcher attachment. Similar in power to a fireball, that's about where I expect it to be.

On the helicopter, depends on type. The helicopter would absolutely beat them on manueverability. It also beats them on speed. A fly speed of 250 means about 28 mph. Double moving gets about twice that but then you're doing nothing. Compare that to a 150 mph speed for an apache and that dragon will very rarely be in a position to attack it.

It also depends on armaments. A forward facing 50 calibre machine gun would easily pound through those scales. Likewise, missiles would do considerable damage.

But for the dragon, it woud all depend on spells. Some spells would make the helicopter irrelevant.

[Psyren]

A modern soldier wouldn't get very far up before running into things they'd have trouble dealing with. A sci-fi soldier on the other hand (e.g. the one from Starfinder...)

In my opinion, it would be able to take down opponents up to CR 6. Mabye even more, if the opponents are giants or dire beasts. A good DR would be his bane.

Modern artillery would take down everything unable to become incorporeal.

Modern artillery would be useless against any character with Evasion and a decent Reflex save. Same with automatic firearms and grenades.

Don't forget regeneration, DR, energy resistance/immunity...

Hell, even high natural armor or deflection bonuses might be a problem before long.

[Elves]

I think D&D magic and modern tech don't overlap that much in the kind of utility they provide. A mailman's souped up blasting spells are probably fairly competitive with modern missiles, and healing magic renders much of medicine moot, but overall I think the two complement each other more than directly opposing, so a combat between them might not be the most relevant way to look at it.

[Psyren]

I think D&D magic and modern tech don't overlap that much in the kind of utility they provide. A mailman's souped up blasting spells are probably fairly competitive with modern missiles, and healing magic renders much of medicine moot, but overall I think the two complement each other more than directly opposing, so a combat between them might not be the most relevant way to look at it.

I think it's less "can a human soldier take on a human wizard" and more "how far into the monster manual could a soldier get before running into something they couldn't handle?"

(The quick answer is "not far" since Shadows are CR3, but that's where we start layering on stipulations like "how far can they get vs. corporeal enemies" etc.)

[druid91]

I mean, just going straight math using stone as a commonality in both worlds, a .50 BMG round is dealing 13,868 damage a shot...

With 120 shots every six seconds you're putting out well over a million damage a turn.

[Lapak]

Others have given you various answers based on game stats as-is, but to answer the thread title in another way: extremely strong right up until they weren't.

Modern soldiers even more than ancient ones are built on a foundation of logistics and supply. The first few ogres our soldier ran into, they'd take apart with the M-16, but then they'd be out of ammo and have no way to gain more. The more modern the soldier and their equipment, the tighter the tolerances for replacements become; a musket can deal with a reasonably broad range of quality in bullets and powder, but a modern assault rifle demands a much narrower window for both. And the same is true of replacement parts.

(The same is true but even more so for an attack helicopter, which can burn through its ammo absurdly fast to deal with a threat, but even if it didn't would be grounded before long for lack of fuel.)

[King of Nowhere]

Do not mix d and d and real life on a mechanical level. Full stop. Never works. By the rules yes you can negate an assault rifle 20 per cent of the time with chainmail. You are not THAT good as a modern soldier in comparison, and a level 5 practicing expert craftsman can take a 3 round burst in center of mass and be mostly unaffected and healed fully in a few days. With no armor.

you can mix them. you just have to accept that D&D characters are superheroes. Once you accept that your fighter20 can charge at an infantry platoon, dodge half the bullets with supernatural speed and reflexes, more bullets get deflected by his ring of protection, some bounce off his armor because the armor is heavily enchanted to the point that's much stronger than kevlar, and those bullets that actually hit the fighter will bounce off his skin dealing mild laceration because this guy has superhuman (supernatural) resilience, and then he'll cleave in two a tank with his sword because the guy has superhuman strenght and the sword is so powerfully enchanted it may well be a lightsaber... well, once you accept that, you can mix up realism and d&d pretty well.

realism is about being consistent.

that said, what kind of stats to give the soldier? I agree on the level 2-3 expert or warrior with elite stats, because of training and schooling and nutrition. Actually, if we set to BAB 0 the basic level of a middle age commoner, the soldier may well be up to 5th level easily, except for the hit points (I mean, how many skill points do you get going to school for a decade, compared to someone who spent that time as an agricultural manual laborer? the answer can't be just 2).

Prsonally, to model firearms and their capacity to punch through medieval armor, I gave them an armor penetration factor. For a modern combat rifle, that factor may be around 8-10: even full plate is negligible, but stack some enchantment or add natural armor underneath, and it's going to stop a few bullets. A better model would also consider range; for example, the armor penetration decreases by 1 for every range increment. bbut it becomes more complicated.
with this mechanic, modern weapons fare very well against most monsters who rely on natural armor for protection. but it's fairly realistic. take for example a tyrannosaurus, CR 8; bullets would still hurt it pretty well, and assuming he's got a couple rounds before getting eaten, a modern soldier should easily put it down with repeated bursts. A small squad of soldiers could dispatch even a 12-headed hydra or similar big brutes easily.

As far as modern armor, as others have said, it's not good against a sword because it leaves a lot of skin exposed. I'd compare it to a chain shirt or breastplate, but with an armor penetration resistance factor, that would make it useful against firearms.

the rest of the equipment gives some nice perks (gps: automatic success on survival checks to figure out your position. infrared: darkvision, with a -10 to spot because you have limited visual field with it, smoke grenades cast fog, camouflage suit gives +5 to hide), but nothing specially relevant for a battle.

Ultimately, the major advantage of modern weaponry is range. if the soldier has the time to see the monster coming and pelt it with bullets, he can take down anything that doesn't have damage reduction.

however, the presence of magic introduces several weaknesses that can easily be exploited. an incorporeal monster would be immune to bullets (fire damage still works 50% of the times, so explosions ought to be effective). a modern army would have nothing against invisibility (unless infrared detects invisibility). A smoke grenade would probably allow detection of an invisible foe, but nothing stops an invisible wizard from dominating the general, or casting cloudkill in the middle of the barracks.

On the other hand, if you can support your modern soldiers with some low level casters, this changes the game. magic weapon on bulllets overcome incorporeal enemies and most damage reductions. epurate invisibility and similar spells counter most of the magic tricks that would nullify a mundane army. With that, you can take down anything except the tarrasque. and artillery makes minced meat of that one too.

Back to the original question, a challenge rating... difficult to assess, because the strenght of a modern soldier is very situational. Around 5 seems appropriate, but it's much harder if he sees you coming from afar, and much easier if you can use magic to go around it.

[Asmotherion]

Consider him a Fighter of his level with optimised equipment.

Extra Poinst if he can reliably use an AMF (so a high UMD) and perhaps bestow the property to his amunition?

[Elves]

Elite array for elite soldiers, maybe. 10 is the human average in general, not the average of a malnourished peasant, and I don't think there are references to boosting your Int score through education.

[Efrate]

Magic fire has a 50% chance to hurt incorporeal. Normal fire does not. A shadow or an allip Just floats through nukes, hydrogen bombs, and artillery.

[Crichton]

I mean, just going straight math using stone as a commonality in both worlds, a .50 BMG round is dealing 13,868 damage a shot...

With 120 shots every six seconds you're putting out well over a million damage a turn.

I'd love to see the math for your damage calculations. Not disagreeing, it's just that you didn't provide any detail, and I'm apparently missing the connection.


Also, the 6 second round isn't necessarily 6 seconds worth of attack for every character. It's 6 seconds for all the participants, but considering it takes a fighter(level 1 to 5 anyway, while his BAB is <6.) one round to do one attack with a sword, it's safe to say our soldier isn't just pumping out full automatic fire for 6 full seconds.

Never mind that the magazine would run out in 2 or 3 seconds(800 rounds per minute=13.3 rounds per second, and the mag is typically 30 rounds), and the gun's gas tube(the tube that routes some of the expanding gas from firing a round, using the energy to cycle the bolt and reload for the next shot) would probably melt after around 200 or so rounds on full auto without a break, assuming you somehow had a magazine that large.

Much safer to assume 3 or 4 three round bursts, which is a more standard use for an M16 anyway. It's a rifle, not a machine gun. Now if our soldier was carrying an M249, things would be quite different(but even then, despite a nominal 650-850 round per minute firing rate, the 'sustained' rate of fire is stated at more like 50 rounds per minute without overheating)

[Lapak]

Magic fire has a 50% chance to hurt incorporeal. Normal fire does not. A shadow or an allip Just floats through nukes, hydrogen bombs, and artillery.

I mean, there's not RAW to cover this one way or another, but all three of those probably aren't Fire as the primary damage - in fact, if anything I'd classify them as mostly Force with some Fire as a rider, which means that they would wipe incorporeal undead off the map pretty neatly.

(For people it's kind of academic whether you are instantly ashed by hotter-than-the-surface-of-the-sun fire or disintegrated by a pressure wave strong enough to rend steel and rock, but both factors are there.)

[Elves]

Force is like invisible magical forcefield energy, not physical force. Probably much of the damage would be untyped, physical, or in a new category. But there's no reason why it would affect creatures on the Ethereal or Shadow planes.

[druid91]

I'd love to see the math for your damage calculations. Not disagreeing, it's just that you didn't provide any detail, and I'm apparently missing the connection.


Also, the 6 second round isn't necessarily 6 seconds worth of attack for every character. It's 6 seconds for all the participants, but considering it takes a fighter(level 1 to 5 anyway, while his BAB is <6.) one round to do one attack with a sword, it's safe to say our soldier isn't just pumping out full automatic fire for 6 full seconds.

Never mind that the magazine would run out in 2 or 3 seconds(800 rounds per minute=13.3 rounds per second, and the mag is typically 30 rounds), and the gun's gas tube(the tube that routes some of the expanding gas from firing a round, using the energy to cycle the bolt and reload for the next shot) would probably melt after around 200 or so rounds on full auto without a break, assuming you somehow had a magazine that large.

Much safer to assume 3 or 4 three round bursts, which is a more standard use for an M16 anyway. It's a rifle, not a machine gun. Now if our soldier was carrying an M249, things would be quite different(but even then, despite a nominal 650-850 round per minute firing rate, the 'sustained' rate of fire is stated at more like 50 rounds per minute without overheating)

Mind you, I'm no mathematics expert... But...

Granite has a compressive strength of 172 lbs a cubic foot. This is it's ability to resist being compressed, like when a bullet hits it. At 172 lbf it will start to break. Anything less does little to no damage.

.50 BMG hits with around 13,310 lbf. Overcoming that Compressive strength 77 times over.

Stone, in 3.5 has a hardness of 8 and 15 Hp per inch of thickness. For a total of 180 hp per cubic foot. Multiply that by 77 then add the hardness.

[Efrate]

Direct from the srd under incorporeal subtype

"It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms".

Artillery et. al are non magical so it does not care.

Interestingly enough, srd also mentions it is only harmed by magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons. Which I think is an update and makes it not as good since its not just manufactured magic weapons anymore. Unless I am forgetting a specific rule from somewhere?