Grrl Power VI: Stripping The Hero Doesnt Work

[Deliverance]

Thanks for the clarification.

I'll withdraw from this thread for the time being, as I cannot trust myself to discuss conquest and the reaction of the conquered without referencing the history of how this has worked in the past, if it is to be anything but a meeting of unsubstantiated claims about human behaviour.

[Traab]

I will say this, deus seems to be working through diplomatic fiction. Oh no HE isnt in charge, its the son of the warlord who died under mysterious bullet related circumstances who is in charge! HE is just the director of finance or an advisor! The dynasty is intact common citizens. There is no need to worry and every reason to rejoice! For your wise and wonderful king has decided to let me help your nation advance into one of great prosperity and safety! But yeah, that might be one way of keeping the peace. So long as everyone plays along in public and their lives are getting better, its doubtful the average citizen of this nation is upset about the state of things now as opposed to last year.

[Shining Wrath]

Well, let's live in Dave's fictional world, where Deus already has set up his own nation and nobody cared to stop him. And he has super-powered people to help him. What's the best counter for Mozambique's general (and, BTW, why are we not seeing the chief of the government being called?). I think it would probably be to find allies. Who would lose if Deus split Mozambique in twain - in the fictional universe? Do we know of any enemies to Deus, or has he played his cards carefully enough to avoid making any enemies who are still alive to do something about it?

[sihnfahl]

Its the son of the warlord who died under mysterious bullet related circumstances who is in charge!

Deus would be quite upset at that unjust accusation!

As multiple witnesses can attest, the previous leader died from a rather sudden heart attack.

And after reviewing the state of the nation, and the depredations of his father, the son found Deus' proposition to develop the country a beneficial one for all involved.

Where Deus already has set up his own nation and nobody cared to stop him.

And how do you propose 'they' had stop him prior to his effective takeover?

And what would cause would they have to intervene when he became the main economic advisor? After all, they hadn't cared about the nation, or its neighbors, a whit between the regular fighting, the changing of warlords, etc.

What's the best counter for Mozambique's general (and, BTW, why are we not seeing the chief of the government being called?). I think it would probably be to find allies. Who would lose if Deus split Mozambique in twain - in the fictional universe? Do we know of any enemies to Deus, or has he played his cards carefully enough to avoid making any enemies who are still alive to do something about it?

He has no counter unless he has supers.

And Deus is bypassing the Chief of government. He knows they won't go for it (after all, they'd effectively be giving up some sovereign soil for Deus to manage, rather than them call the shots and make the decisions), so he's trying to incite a ground-level rebellion. That's why he mentioned the Colonel's hometown ...

And we have no known enemies of Deus. He goes on major charm offensive to keep his detractors at bay. (Mostly, I think his charm is majorly offensive.)

[Traab]

Well, let's live in Dave's fictional world, where Deus already has set up his own nation and nobody cared to stop him. And he has super-powered people to help him. What's the best counter for Mozambique's general (and, BTW, why are we not seeing the chief of the government being called?). I think it would probably be to find allies. Who would lose if Deus split Mozambique in twain - in the fictional universe? Do we know of any enemies to Deus, or has he played his cards carefully enough to avoid making any enemies who are still alive to do something about it?

I think the odds of people going to war with him (outside of the areas he invades) are low. I dont think mozambique has a lot of high value to anyone with the forces to step in with direct confrontation, and the fact that he is both the de facto ruler of a nation and the owner of an international corporation makes doing economic war on him less than simple as well. The addition of super powers makes it hard to blockade/embargo him what with his portal maker there allowing for plenty of clandestine deals and shipments, and even if you COULD cut him off entirely, he has access to SPACE. Plus I think there is the aspect of a game of chicken being played here as, iirc there are international laws about using supers in wars, but im sure that there is an exception for protecting "your" borders. So he is free to use his supers in defense and other nations using theirs to attack could cause a chain reaction. So they might not WANT to challenge his super backed forces for that reason as well as it not being worth the cost in lives and gear to try to stop it.

Or at least, I think this is close enough to reasonable to work as a hand wave for the series.

[Forum Explorer]

Deus' plans generally rely on the idea that your average joe in the areas he's expanding into dont give half a crap about lines drawn on some other nation's map, they care about where their food is coming from, if their water is clean, and if they can avoid getting sick. If Deus doesnt need to run the country into the ground to promote his military and maintain his tenuous control, which he doesnt at the moment, and if he can keep outside parties from coming in and just rampaging over his populace, i dont think it would be as hard a sell as youre making it out to be. Theres a lot of brutality involved, but theoretically at least Deus plans to keep it away from the general populace, and to just let them live their lives. The idea of Bread and Circuses is not a particularly new one.



You do remember that Deus is the bad guy, yes? And that his actions are being shown as a Bad Thing?

The problem is that people generally do care about lines on the map, and they care a lot. Else nations would fall apart all the time.


The comic is waaaay too generous to Deus. He reads more like a villainous protagonist with a healthy dash of wish fulfilment rather than an actual villain.

Bread and Circuses has gone hand in hand with an iron fist historically, where conquest is concerned.

Can you think of a single example since the advent of nationalism in the end of the 18thth century, where "I'm conquering you for your own good; see, I provide bread and circuses; better living standards!" have worked in the short run, rather than requiring the usual three generations to incorporate a conquered population, keeping unrest under control by any means necessary until the passage of time have killed enough people that most of the population is happy with the arrangement and have never known anything else?

Of course one can argue that Deus would somehow do it differently, better, or that the average Joes and Janes would just flock to get a better way of life, because they don't care about what country they are part of, or anything beyond getting by in their everyday life - but frankly, I don't see why people would that way, except that this being fiction, the writer can do what he wants, including indulging in dreams.

Rather, the average Joes and Janes would cooperate with the occupation and try living their life in peace even as they saw their culture change around them, while some slightly less average Joes and Janes objected to the occupation, or to their culture changing, or because they blamed their new rulers all problems just like they blamed their old rulers, and pretty soon you have an insurgency of one sort or another on your hands, and you have to put it down with force, but possibly not all that much force the first time. Controlled action. And somebody overreacts, or is set up, and soon you are responsible for a massacre, and the average Joes and Janes don't feel safe and may stop trusting that you'll remain in control, so you increase suppression - but that also annoys somebody that weren't annoyed before, because every action has a reaction, and before you know of it, you have a real mess on your hands, and no real resort apart from crushing it with your military.

This is why it is so damn hard to fight guerillas or other insurgent forces, living in the population; since they fundamentally don't want the same as you want, it is completely irrelevant if their wants seem unreasonable to you and you think they'd have better lives, if they just lived in peace under you. They are not going to be swayed by Bread and Circuses or Hearts and Minds or whatever label one puts on it (though that can help limit their growth and recruitment possibilities). You need time and sustained pressure - or exhausting each other so you can reach a political settlement giving in to some of their demands (and having their supports accept this).

I think the 'three generation' thing held true in the past as well. Just that these days guerilla armies have a lot more power.

Well, let's live in Dave's fictional world, where Deus already has set up his own nation and nobody cared to stop him. And he has super-powered people to help him. What's the best counter for Mozambique's general (and, BTW, why are we not seeing the chief of the government being called?). I think it would probably be to find allies. Who would lose if Deus split Mozambique in twain - in the fictional universe? Do we know of any enemies to Deus, or has he played his cards carefully enough to avoid making any enemies who are still alive to do something about it?

South Africa presumably. The EU maybe. Particularly when there's the chance to loot alien tech. Really, I'd be expecting nations to be looking for excuses to pick fights with Deus' nation, just for the chance to steal some of that alien tech. Particularly if you can do it in a deniable way by sending Special Forces and calling them mercenaries, or loyal Mozambians (if that's the proper term) that are resisting occupation.

[Keltest]

To me, Deus reads like a character acting out the evil overlord list. He's very fake, but fake on purpose because that's what gets him results.

[Mechalich]

One thing about Deus' play here that seems particularly dumb is that just taking control of the Zambezi River from the Mozambique/Malawi border (it is implied that Malawi and presumably Zambia have already decided to cooperate with Deus, since his fictional nation is supposed to occupy a chunk of the map that belongs to the Democratic Republic of the Congo) doesn't really help with shipping since there is not a significant port city at or near the mouth of the river or any good place to build one. It would make far more sense to push directly east from the Malawi border and try to take control of the port of Nacala in the north.

[Radar]

How I view the ramifications of Deus's conquest: while the invaded country probably has no resources to stop him, there are always bigger fishes in the sea. Typically, nations are not remote islands, so there are political connections and stronger countries in a given place have an informal area of influence comprising of less fortunate countries. So if this fictional Mozambique is weak, they are most likely under an influence of a stronger state, which would obviously take offence in someone taking what they view as theirs. The key question is, what they can do about the situation? If they do not have enough power to stop Deus they need to find allies; as I said, there are always bigger fish in the sea. The top-tier superpower countries are often thinking globally, so there should be someone particularly interested in expanding their influence over fictional Africa. While open invasion of Deus's country would not be possible as it would make all the other superpowers upset, someone asking for help gives a good opportunity to seize control of all that alien technology indirectly - taking in the Alari refugees was both a great opportunity for Deus and great danger as the technology they bring is a juicy prize for pretty much everyone - countries, corporations, international mobs etc.

[Rakaydos]

What Dave is probably unaware of, as it doesn't make the news much, is that there's a big NG facility in NE Mozambique. ISIS is active in the area and has come pretty close to overrunning the NG facility. In order to help Mozambique out, surrounding nations have sent troops to help fight ISIS. Very likely Deus would not be fighting the army of Mozambique, he'd be fighting their neighbors, too; and South Africa's forces would not be so casually dismissed. In fact, South Africa almost certainly has an ArcSwat team of their own. Per the CIA Factbook, SA has a population of 57 million and the largest stock exchange in Africa. Compared to Mozambique, they are a rather more formidable foe, and we already know they will fight on Mozambique's behalf, and organize other countries to help.

Transparency International gives Mozambique a score of 25/100, ranked 149 out of 180. So, yeah, pretty corrupt. South Africa gets a 40/100 (ranked 69th, so, above mid-point!).

Dave doesn't much care about RW politics for purposes of telling his story, but trying to cut Mozambique in twain would pretty much be "taking the bear's cub". South Africa is a force to be reckoned with in their immediate area, and the natural gas means developed nations might take notice.

EDIT:

Per Wikipedia, Mozambique has ~11,000 men in their army. SA has ~75,000 troops in their armed forces, including 229 aircraft.

Bear in mind that Obama is still in office, presumably. ISIS as an offshoot of AQI hadnt spread through the Muslim world yet.

[Shining Wrath]

Bear in mind that Obama is still in office, presumably. ISIS as an offshoot of AQI hadnt spread through the Muslim world yet.

That's a very good point. How many years have passed in-comic? Only a few months, maybe? If Dave has reason to show us the current President, will it still be Obama, or will it have suddenly become Biden? Or he could go alternate-world and have someone completely different - Meryl Streep's character from "Don't Look Up", or the guy from "Idiocracy".

Still more reason to give Dave suspension of disbelief in terms of real-world militaries and how they'd respond.

Now, an interesting in-comic plot twist would be for Mozambique to go looking for a rival to Deus. See if you can get a better deal than "I'm cutting your country in half and you can't stop me", which actually isn't difficult to imagine. We haven't seen an enemy to Deus yet, but maybe it's time he had one.

EDIT: The throw-back page shows Obama discussing Archon with the leadership of Mexico and Canada, per Dave's comments. This suggests rather strongly that they have supers of their own, or at a minimum have some say in how Archon is used.

[Dragonus45]

And we have no known enemies of Deus. He goes on major charm offensive to keep his detractors at bay. (Mostly, I think his charm is majorly offensive.)

That's the biggest trick to it I think, most people probably would find him far more off putting then actually charming but the gamut of negative reactions he might invoke are likely just as useful to him as actually liking him so long as people are so busy looking at him and his outright bull**** they miss all his tricky bull****.

South Africa presumably. The EU maybe. Particularly when there's the chance to loot alien tech. Really, I'd be expecting nations to be looking for excuses to pick fights with Deus' nation, just for the chance to steal some of that alien tech. Particularly if you can do it in a deniable way by sending Special Forces and calling them mercenaries, or loyal Mozambians (if that's the proper term) that are resisting occupation.

I'll bet special forces have already gone to take several swings at him as is, just probably not the American forces since he has managed to get a decent working relationship to them which means he gets decent back channels to defuse things. We even saw that at work with his dinner with Max. I wonder how in he is with most other nations that might actually care? If we find out he does a lot of business in South Africa it may well explain a few things.

[sihnfahl]

EDIT: The throw-back page shows Obama discussing Archon with the leadership of Mexico and Canada, per Dave's comments. This suggests rather strongly that they have supers of their own, or at a minimum have some say in how Archon is used.

Or agreements on how the US can operate ARCHON agents in the respective countries.

For example, the FTC has a MOU with the RCMP in regards to cross-border fraud causes.

There are multiple cooperatives between the FBI and various Canadian agencies for data sharing and case cooperation.

Since ARCHON is effectively law enforcement for super crimes...

That's the biggest trick to it I think, most people probably would find him far more off putting then actually charming but the gamut of negative reactions he might invoke are likely just as useful to him as actually liking him so long as people are so busy looking at him and his outright bull**** they miss all his tricky bull****.

Hm, well, charm offensive might be a bit of a stretch in his case. PR Blitz? I mean, I JUST can't think of ANY loudmouthed CEOs who people consider just a touch below raw sewage, but are still successful, just because of the company they run. Can you?

[Gez]

You do remember that Deus is the bad guy, yes? And that his actions are being shown as a Bad Thing?

If saying "it is a villain that does these things" was all that was needed to have a work of fiction be tactful in its treatment of sensitive topics, there are a lot of generally mocked and reviled works that would be so much less so...

I've just done a quick web search for "topics difficult to write about in fiction" and this blog was the first entry. Here are the first few advices:

1. Write what you know.
2. Do your research.
3. Get a second opinion.
4. Choose your point of view carefully.

Yep, I'm sure this will go swimmingly.

[Dragonus45]

Hm, well, charm offensive might be a bit of a stretch in his case. PR Blitz? I mean, I JUST can't think of ANY loudmouthed CEOs who people consider just a touch below raw sewage, but are still successful, just because of the company they run. Can you?

No one comes to mind no, although Dues seems to be successful for more reasons then just having a big company.

If saying "it is a villain that does these things" was all that was needed to have a work of fiction be tactful in its treatment of sensitive topics, there are a lot of generally mocked and reviled works that would be so much less so...

Bad people do bad things? I don't see what the complaint here is.

[sihnfahl]

No one comes to mind no, although Dues seems to be successful for more reasons then just having a big company.

I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with the fact he has hired a number of supers who specialize in infiltration, subterfuge, espionage and homicide.

Also, is that ... Hench Wench serving him?

I hope that's not Hench Wench.

[The Glyphstone]

I mean, would you want to end up in a contract dispute with Deus? Signing up with him might be a terrible error on her part.

[Keltest]

I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with the fact he has hired a number of supers who specialize in infiltration, subterfuge, espionage and homicide.

Also, is that ... Hench Wench serving him?

I hope that's not Hench Wench.

I cant remember, was she actually captured, or did she just run away?

[Max_Killjoy]

None of the characters besides Deus is named in the sidebar.

[InvisibleBison]

I cant remember, was she actually captured, or did she just run away?

She escaped.

Also, I don't think the woman in the last panel of 1014 is Hench Wench. Her nose isn't the same shape and her hair seems to be a different shade of brown.

[The Glyphstone]

Speaking of Hench Wench, her power allegedly worked via binding contracts. But she'd have to put her actual legal name on the contract or itd be invalid, since "Hench Wench" isn't a legally recognized entity. Couldn't ARCSWAT just look at a copy of the contract and hunt her down that way?

[Keltest]

Speaking of Hench Wench, her power allegedly worked via binding contracts. But she'd have to put her actual legal name on the contract or itd be invalid, since "Hench Wench" isn't a legally recognized entity. Couldn't ARCSWAT just look at a copy of the contract and hunt her down that way?

Her powers also allegedly required her to be working for the villains, yet she somehow ended up with a contract where the work for her which A: seems incredibly unlikely for any remotely intelligent entity and B: would seem like it invalidates her powers if she doesnt actually work for them.

[InvisibleBison]

Her powers also allegedly required her to be working for the villains, yet she somehow ended up with a contract where the work for her which A: seems incredibly unlikely for any remotely intelligent entity and B: would seem like it invalidates her powers if she doesnt actually work for them.

The contract didn't stipulate that they worked for her; it just said that they needed her agreement to fire her.

[The Glyphstone]

On second.thought, I withdraw my question. Reflecting back on how HWs powers simply do not make any sense at all is not a can of worms to be re-opened.

[Traab]

Yeah that turned into a huge mess of "how the &*^*&^ does that work?!" arguing. It took me awhile to even remember who she was. i think i blocked her from memory because of how silly that was.

[Shining Wrath]

I don't think that's HW.
The more ruthless Deus is, the more likely it is that he'll draw the attention of a government with sufficient power to end him.

[Forum Explorer]

I mean that could be Hench Wench. She got away with something that looked like Opal's power who we know works for Deus.

[Shining Wrath]

Deus has crossed the line where the super powers are now going to intervene in his little game. And yes, it does not surprise that Deus contacted Tom with an offer.
It's probably a good thing Vehemence is not part of Tom's army, that could be awkward.
Now we see if Deus has somehow managed to bribe one of the members of the UNSC with veto power, because if the UN isn't going to act on a freakin' invasion by otherworldly demons, it's not going to act at all.

[Max_Killjoy]

Deus has crossed the line where the super powers are now going to intervene in his little game. And yes, it does not surprise that Deus contacted Tom with an offer.
It's probably a good thing Vehemence is not part of Tom's army, that could be awkward.
Now we see if Deus has somehow managed to bribe one of the members of the UNSC with veto power, because if the UN isn't going to act on a freakin' invasion by otherworldly demons, it's not going to act at all.

This has reached the point where one country can directly ASK another country for assistance.

The UN does not need to be involved.

[Shining Wrath]

This has reached the point where one country can directly ASK another country for assistance.

The UN need to be involved.

We don't want to involve real-world politics, but I think Mozambique's neighbors would be reluctant to take on Tom's army of demons with unknown powers. We'll see what Dave's world looks like. Tom being a somewhat law abiding extraterrestrial fiend, he's going to point to Deus inviting him onto Earth as justification for him being there. And I'll bet there are no treaties making it illegal for Galyta to invite alien mercenaries onto Earth.

This is where a superpower needs secret operatives. You need to be able to stop Deus without using your own uniformed troops.