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2021-03-31, 12:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
So, I was looking around the forum, and have noted that there is a show about watching the Original Star Trek series (Which I like) and watching DS9 (By yora, and a series that I also like) but nothing for the Next Generation. (Also nothing for either Voyager or Enterprise)
So what does that mean? Well it means someone has to watch this show through. and evaluate a few things: 1) Is this series any good? ; 2) Is the stuff made with Gene Roddenberry better or worse? ; 3) how actually likable are the characters, and are there any that should simply die? ; 4) Does the series really deserve to be seen as so great, or is that more the fans who loved TOS being dumb and giving it a chance due to it being Star Trek.
Also, should the show have been canceled at any point.
So, Yora used a nice versions of emoji faces which will get used for this thread as well. I am expecting the playground to come along and discuss this show. As we go through the episodes. With spoilers being dumped everywhere because it is an old series and people should have seen it.
Now, since the show started as it did, I feel that it is only proper that the viewing work the same, which means watching the episodes in order, and talking about it. That means starting with the pilot and going through the first season then the second and so on. (except for the Borg Episodes which I am skipping, because I refuse to watch them. the Borg always gave me weird dreams and nightmares, you all can watch the Borg on your own. I HATE Horrer!)
So, kick back and get your tv trays ready. I will be watching on Netflix myself.Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)
(Yes, I happen to despise Game of Thrones, and the Book Series it is based on. I am Team Wight/Other. Kill all those humans!)
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2021-03-31, 07:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-03-31, 07:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Originally Posted by Hopeless
Like most series its first season it takes time to get its footing....
But it really has not aged well.
SpoilerThe lighting and music for the first season have much more in common with TOS than with later seasons of TNG, so that can seem rather jarring.
And everyone is still finding their characters, so some episodes are quite goofy, occasionally on purpose. And the writing is often not great.
But if you can get through the first season, the show starts becoming truly great. I've been watching later episodes on BBC America and many of them hold up very well. And Guinan always steals every scene she's in.
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2021-03-31, 08:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
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2021-03-31, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2021-03-31, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
TNG Season 1 was not universally well received when it was new (with, ironically, many of the same complaints made about it as are made about the recent series). It hasn't just not aged gracefully though, quite a lot of the first season is actively drek. Like there are some miserable 45 minute periods coming up for these intrepid viewers who have to make it through Code of Honor, Justice, and rather more Wesley Crusher than anyone, especially Wil Wheaton, should have had to put up with.
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2021-03-31, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Yeah I have watched this series before but I think that we need a thread for watching the show, like how there were for TOS and DS9 and Babylon 5.
When I rewatch the series, I watch a couple from the first season and a few from the second season and really get going in season 3. The first two seasons are both just bad.
Frankly, I think that you can lay the blame for what is wrong at the feet of roddenberry himself. He did rewrite the episode of code of honor which has a bunch of problems beyond the casting and being space Africa.
I think that you could accurately describe roddenberry as being like George Lucas but that unlike George who came to learn that he worked better with the others who helped make the shows/movies as good as they could be. I don't think that Gene ever picked up on that point also, according to stuff I saw on tvtropes, I think gene did one of his script rewrites for code of honor.
But the problems for that episode can be covered when the episode is gotten to.Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
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My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)
(Yes, I happen to despise Game of Thrones, and the Book Series it is based on. I am Team Wight/Other. Kill all those humans!)
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2021-03-31, 05:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
One of things SFDebris pointed out to me was that the music was ostensibly better for the first three seasons of TNG than at any other point in the franchise as a whole, at least on television. It was rich and atmospheric, often conveying the spirit of what was intended even if the writing often couldn't. Then Rick Berman fired the guy doing it and TV Trek pivoted into mostly just being neutral television background noise you could find anywhere, outside of the big opening score obviously.
Though I will say the banal ambiance of TNG is quite soothing, especially compared to similar contemporary SF works.
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2021-03-31, 08:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
so for doing this, i think there should some points here. i may like episodes that you don't like, and i may not like episodes that you like. there will probably be disagreements.
For this watching, I am going to be using two hats: The Russ fan of Star Trek and Star Wars and scifi/fantasy hat; the Russ the Network Executive that has to fork up/put up the money for this show and so how much / little there pops for doing that, along with whether canceling the show should have happened.
Then, Of course, for this to be more of a proper viewing, the only parts of Star Trek for consideration here, should naturally be the Original Series (TOS) and the Animated Series (TAS) and also, whatever previous episodes happened already.
There will be some trackers made for this. Of the good episodes, of the bad episodes, of the "Meh" episodes. For how in general did the season do. For how much appeal/value there would be in making the series, and should Russ the Network Executive (The Network) have paid to do the show, and should have the show been canceled at any point. The most tracker in my mind is, Should Gene Roddenberry been removed from being able to influence/tweak the show. There will be how much/often the cast holds the Idiot Ball, where the problems of the episode could have been solved due to technology they had available (Shields, Transporters, Phasers, Photon Torpodoes, Sensors), does the cast hold an idiot ball for common sense actions that they should have taken? All that.
Then there trackers that the playgrounds could suggest going with.
My Trackers: Episode Quality, Series canceled/kept, Idiot Ball (Technology), Idiot Ball (Common Sense), Kick Gene Roddenberry Out, Everyone is a Moron (More than one person in the episode is holding an Idiot Ball and more than one at the same time as well), How Insufferably Smug the Federation/Our Cast is
What are your suggestions, playgrounders? After those have been assembled, then watching the Pilot, Encounter at Farpoint, can happen.
okay, so maybe more Star trek stuff had come out before TNG, the first episode aired September 28th, 1987.Last edited by russdm; 2021-04-01 at 12:09 AM.
Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)
(Yes, I happen to despise Game of Thrones, and the Book Series it is based on. I am Team Wight/Other. Kill all those humans!)
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2021-04-01, 07:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-01, 08:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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2021-04-01, 09:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Originally Posted by russdm
The first two seasons are both just bad.
First season is clunky and awkward, with some overt moralizing that seems very out of place in comparison to later seasons. But it’s not a total loss by any means. Second season is much improved and even has some gems, most notably “Measure of a Man,” which was beautifully done and even a little daring in the context of the show as a whole.
So claiming that two entire seasons are “just bad” isn’t very helpful, and I would argue not at all accurate.
Originally Posted by russdm
Frankly, I think that you can lay the blame for what is wrong at the feet of roddenberry himself.
Without going into details, there are claims that someone else close to Roddenberry, but not actually on production staff, made some last-minute changes to certain scripts. No telling if those claims are true, but there were a lot of other factors besides Roddenberry at work.
To say nothing of what should be defined as “wrong” in the first place, which is a separate issue entirely.
Originally Posted by Kitten Champion
One of things SFDebris pointed out to me was that the music was ostensibly better for the first three seasons of TNG than at any other point in the franchise as a whole, at least on television.
I was commenting specifically about the music in the first season, which feels much more akin to music from TOS. When I notice it, it feels very stilted and awkward, much like some of the lighting and camerawork from first season.
Originally Posted by russdm
…Everyone is a Moron…How Insufferably Smug the Federation/Our Cast is….
Originally Posted by russdm
okay, so maybe more Star trek stuff had come out before TNG, the first episode aired September 28th, 1987.
Originally Posted by Kareeah_Indaga
Maybe a tracker for when the Prime Directive comes up?
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2021-04-01, 10:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Yeah, a 'snarking at how dumb everything is' thread is significantly less interesting. The B5 and DS9 threads worked because they were someone's honest first time and first hand experiences. Having nine different trackers of nothing but negative things gives a completely different tone, more like MST3King Trek ( which some people might buy into) .
NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
Hell, It's About Time: Wings of Liberty
Does This Mutation Make Me Look Fat: Heart of the Swarm
My Life For Aiur? I Barely Know 'Er: Legacy of the Void
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2021-04-01, 10:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Really, unless you are going out to roast the episodes I would suggest keeping it simple.
Don't use lots of criteria - keep it simple and score the episode on a set of general criteria (eg: Story, Character, Technical (writing, effects), Lore (how well it fits in the wider TNG/TOS viewpoint) and Overall).
So, something like:
Episode: (pilot, S1E1 or however you wish to label them)
Title: (Obvious)
Plot:
(Quick plot summary)
Reaction:
(How you feel about it. If important, how you marked it)
Scores:
- X/5 - Story
- X/5 - Character
- X/5 - Technical
- X/5 - Lore
- X/5 - Overall
1 - Bad episode: Multiple weaknesses (bad acting, bad story, disasterous effects, poor connection to lore)
2 - Poor episode: Not too bad but has one or two week areas (Poor plot, weak character use, bad effects)
3 - Average episode: OK to watch, but nothing amazing. This should be the default score.
4 - Good episode: A few parts of the episode are above average - good plot points, clever use of effects and so on.
5 - Excelent episode: Episode excels in most or all ways - major character development, good story and so on
This covers most of the basis - Trying to score out of 10 becomes cumbersome because there are too many choices; scoring out of three can work, but it is a little tight.
If you want, optionally stick a short comment after a score iff you need to clarify why you gave that score.Last edited by Manga Shoggoth; 2021-04-01 at 11:00 AM.
Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.
"The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud
"Hold on just a d*** second. UK has spam callers that try to get you to buy conservatories?!? Even y'alls spammers are higher class than ours!" Peelee
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2021-04-01, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
The SFDebris quote he was talking about (looking at the episode Justice at about 7:21.) was actually just comparing pre-Berman Star Trek TNG, and specifically Season 1, to the Berman era and not the franchise as a whole and certainly not the film scores. There were a few composers during this time, but Ron Jones has been most vocal about the changes Berman demanded, that the music not be "too noticeable" according to Jones, who was fired from TNG around season 4. Post Season 3, the music does tend to just fade away, comprising more of just repeated themes and background mood.
I actually do prefer a lot of the early TNG music to later TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT for this reason.
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2021-04-01, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2021-04-01, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Warning: This posting may contain wit, wisdom, pathos, irony, satire, sarcasm and puns. And traces of nut.
"The main skill of a good ruler seems to be not preventing the conflagrations but rather keeping them contained enough they rate more as campfires." Rogar Demonblud
"Hold on just a d*** second. UK has spam callers that try to get you to buy conservatories?!? Even y'alls spammers are higher class than ours!" Peelee
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2021-04-01, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Is there any real need for scoring and criteria?
Why not just discuss the episodes without making it an Olympic event?
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2021-04-01, 01:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Last edited by Peelee; 2021-04-01 at 01:41 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2021-04-01, 04:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Yeah, that's why I specified television, because they ain't paying Jerry Goldsmith for regular TV compositions.
If you want a straightforward example of where early TNG Ron Jones music is peak TV Trek music, then watch or listen to the sound track on Q Who or Best of Both Worlds and compare it to any other occasion where the Borg appear later on in TNG, Voyager, or Enterprise. Jones' music sells those episodes and made the Borg feel like the oppressive force they were intended to be, while later composers just made fairly indistinct tense action-y kind of music.
I can't speak for Discovery though as I barely remember any of its music, nor can I recall much of ST: Picard's OST outside of the persistent - if pleasant - use of the flute.
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2021-04-01, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
...so no trying to count the number of Script Reading Doors in a given episode?
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2021-04-01, 05:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
That's why I was asking for advice from others. To properly setup the best way of reviewing this.
Leonard maizlish is the guy who you are looking for. I read the stuff about "chaos on the bridge"
I am just going with the tv series and movies that had been done before the first episode airing and that to count for Lore.
Considering that Lore, Data's brother doesn't show up until the datalore episode and then disappears after, i don't think it is fair to judge an episode on him in some way.
There are a few gems in the first season, too.
I think that "bad" can range from "meh" to "throwing a shoe at the screen "Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
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2021-04-01, 08:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
So, I am going to do a rundown on the tv shows that I like, the ones that I have not been interested in. Then there will be the episodes from the Original Series that I will frequently rewatch for whenever I go do another rewatch using the streaming services. That should give people a sense of what I happen to like and so what would be affecting how I would view the series/episodes and how much I would like them or not.
Tv Series: MASH (all seasons but especially the post Frank Burns ones); TOS; Mobile Suit Gundam Wing; Mobile Suit Gundam: 8th ms team; mobile suit gundam; wings; Seinfeld; Battlestar Galactica (the original one); Battlestar Galactica (newer version); sailor moon ( i watched some bits); Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy (the BBC one); Doctor who (the recent one, I have not seen anything pre- Christopher eccleston); MST3K (the original one); Firefly; Linda Hunt and her series about being space rangers (Linda hunt, who was shadout mapes in david lynch Dune and she was in NCIS Los Angeles i think it was); quantum leap; Sliders (I saw parts of this, and my main memory is of john Davies (gimli in lotr movies) as Arturo, Rembrandt the black guy, wade the girl and somebody else; as being the main characters; I think that I recall bits from earlier in the show); Babylon 5 (i thought that it started slow and could have better some but my favorite characters were Vir - G'Kar - Londo); Deep Space 9; Voyager (my favorite episode of this show was the episode of the planet with the super fast rotation and then my second favorite was the show where the doctor was sent to that ship that the crew picked up on sensors using the big array of communications systems that were connected with black holes); enterprise (i liked the ones dealing with the vulcans and the andorians and about the interactions between the groups that form to be the federation and i didn't like the time travel stuff or the xindi stuff, did like the romulan stuff); pysch; highlander
TV Shows (that I didn't like or have interest in): Buffy the vampire slayer (i actually saw the movie for this show but I couldn't ever find the interest in watching the show any, the little that I saw of episodes that I had, didn't encourage my interest); friends (the ross Rachel relationship tumor); breaking bad (I didn't find myself interested in seeing this); angel (I just couldn't find an interest in wanting to watch this)
The Original Series Episode Returns (these are the episodes from the original series that whenever I do another rewatch of the original series on a streaming service that I will usually always watch again every time and just keep going back to; this will also have the episodes that I remember liking): Balance of Terror; Errand of Mercy; Space Seed; Journey to Babel; The trouble with tribbles; the one with the constellation and the bugle chip shaped robot superweapon/doomsdayweapon; the one with the space romans and planet; the ultimate computer (the one with the m5 computer); the one with the gorn; the one where spock and mccoy go back in time on a planet;(ones that I remember liking when I saw the show and did a rewatch, I was born in 1985 so I had to watch the show on TV or through DVDS or streaming services) the one with Kodos; the giant cat Halloween one; the one with the nazi culture influenced place thing; the edith lady one; the cappy guys and McCoy has to help make a kid featuring a Klingon guy one; the one with the poisonous gorilla that is wearing a horn that features a Klingon guy; the one with the gorn; the one with Kang the Klingon; the one with the intelligent rock; the one with Lazarus guy and guy; the one with the old long lived guy; the one with Garth; the one with the crew stealing the romulan cloaking device and spock interacts with the romulan lady; the one with the war between the two planets that was done with computers and that Kirk broke those computers and the federation diplomat that kirk was escorting there was helping the two planets do talking with each other at the end
So yeahLast edited by russdm; 2021-04-01 at 08:57 PM.
Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)
(Yes, I happen to despise Game of Thrones, and the Book Series it is based on. I am Team Wight/Other. Kill all those humans!)
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2021-04-01, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
Sliders was amazing.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 1
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2021-04-01, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
I'm not sure doing a canceled/kept per episode would really be worth it.
Kick Gene Roddenberry Out, is a bit of a waste too. For everything you want to blame on Gene, he also did all the good things. Gene wanted the handy-capable main cast member(Geordi La Forge) at a time when that was not done much on TV. Also it was not just Gene, like five people really had hands in ruining the first couple years of TNG.
I might suggest:
*Missed Chances- TNG is a great example of a show that often had great ideas...and then never went anywhere with them.
*80's Flashback and 90's flashback- it's sure funny to see such things now.
*Money Matters- A fun one, as as soon as a character says no moneu...a character then buys something with "credits". Dr. Crusher BUYS some fabric in Encounter at Farpoint, no less.
*Troi Troubles- So...they state that she is an empath with a range of at least a kilometer or two. Sometimes they renumber to have her use her ability...but most often they forget.
*Data's Emotions- It's said all the time that "Data has no emotions"....ok, but then why does Data ACT like he has emotions. Data is very curious, but then maybe curious is not an "emotion". Data cares for the ship and crew....but "care is an emotion". Data also gets surprised, confused, and countless other things that sure seem like "emotions" .
*Family Fun - So....the Enterprise has families on it, and that is just a horrible idea. The ship can be called into battle, or worse just get attacked out of the blue. But OF COURSE we never see a photon torpedo blow up classroom 1 and kill a bunch of kids. And even worse, every so often everyone on the ship de-evolves or something, but the show just skips the horror of little Billy and Sally becoming frogs or whatever.
*Clunky Allegories- Star Trek CAN be so great at this......but TNG fails way more often them not.
*Surprisingly Timid- TOS had plenty of raw, powerful, emotional stories. THG....well, not so much. Far too often is was just too timid. If you want to "show" us something....then show us, don't dance around it.
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2021-04-01, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
I think, personally, I'd go for more amusing-in-a-meta-kind-of-way than season one/two-specific kinds of things.
Like
The Red Shirt -- for when someone - predominantly an extra - dies to build tension.
He Who is Worfed -- where, ya'know, Worf is made to fight and lose to prove the adversary is serious business.
The Picard Speech -- which is self-explanatory I think, but you could also rate them against one another.
Polarize the Phase Inverters -- for impressive use of meaningless jargon or pseudo-science.
Here be Dragons -- for space anomalies.
and, of course.
It's Yet Another Simulation Gone Mad -- for holodeck malfunctions.Last edited by Kitten Champion; 2021-04-01 at 11:24 PM.
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2021-04-02, 12:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
While a trope of the series, it doesn't happen that often. I'd like to expand it to something like Didn't Spring for the Extended Warranty, covering where 24th century tech gets inexplicably unreliable so the story can happen (transporters can't solve the problem of the week because of ionizing thingy, phasers that can vaporize steel don't bother the alien of the week, none of the ships controls work, "Hey, did that guy just beam through the shields?", and of course, holodeck safeties fail and the holograms try to kill everyone)
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2021-04-02, 12:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
There will be a tracker for Miles O'Brien and his ranks, which are a little silly some
Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)
(Yes, I happen to despise Game of Thrones, and the Book Series it is based on. I am Team Wight/Other. Kill all those humans!)
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2021-04-02, 01:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
I think there's about one a season going from TNG and onward into the spin-offs. Though early on there were more as the Holodeck was a novel concept, and now they didn't have to find insane counter-part Earths like in TOS.
There was also The Royal - I think it was called - which was a Holodeck Malfunction story even if it was an inexplicable alien simulation of a cheesy novel and not on the actual Holodeck.
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2021-04-02, 01:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: New kids in the class. Let's watch and discuss, Star Trek: The Next Generation
We (I) Have Started!!!!!
Blog Read and Comment! I use green for joking and Blue for sarcasm.
Published two Kindle Books on Amazon, both are 99 cents. Ask Me about them!
My First Let's Play -- Temporary Haitus (I plan to get back to it eventually)
(Yes, I happen to despise Game of Thrones, and the Book Series it is based on. I am Team Wight/Other. Kill all those humans!)