Pendell reads the Silmarillion

[DavidSh]

We know from Lord of the Rings that the princes of Dol Amroth are descended from a Numenorean called Imrazor and an Elf called Mithrellas.

Citation needed. I don't remember those names at all, and I must have read LotR, with appendices, at least ten times. I don't claim infallibility, though.

I also wonder about the status of the giants mentioned in The Hobbit. Are they varieties of Men? Of Elves? (Of Dwarves?) Other creations by individual Valar that got Iluvatar's approval, but since they didn't make to Beleriand, aren't mentioned in the Silmarillion? Just beasts?

[J-H]

Citation needed. I don't remember those names at all, and I must have read LotR, with appendices, at least ten times. I don't claim infallibility, though.

It's from a poem or song mentioned after the Fellowship leaves Moria. He drowns, she gets sad, it's a tragedy type story.
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Mithrellas or http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nimrodel apparently have a summary.

[Divayth Fyr]

Citation needed. I don't remember those names at all, and I must have read LotR, with appendices, at least ten times. I don't claim infallibility, though.

I'm not sure the specifics were detailed in LotR, however in RotK Legolas recognizes elven blood in Imrahil

At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins. 'Hail, lord!' he said. 'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water.

[Grim Portent]

The Princes of Dol Amroth being counted among Men and the fact that while Elrond's children are given the choice of becoming Men but not Elros's (or the descendants of Aragorn and Arwen after she chooses Men) lead me to believe that Earendil's family was a special case and that overall the children of Men and Elves count as Men (which would square with the notion of death being Illuvatar's gift to Men, he gives it, he doesn't take it away.)

I had actually forgotten that the prince of Dol Amroth had any detailed description when he showed up.

I'm not sure his line indicates that only one lineage of half-elves got to choose between Men or Elves, it could well be that the first half-elf in the line chose Men. We know the decision cannot be reversed for any children born after the choice to be Men is made, though I cannot recall where Tolkien made that clear.

Citation needed. I don't remember those names at all, and I must have read LotR, with appendices, at least ten times. I don't claim infallibility, though.

I also wonder about the status of the giants mentioned in The Hobbit. Are they varieties of Men? Of Elves? (Of Dwarves?) Other creations by individual Valar that got Iluvatar's approval, but since they didn't make to Beleriand, aren't mentioned in the Silmarillion? Just beasts?

Generally assumed to be one of the creations of Morgoth I think, though they are technically not canon to the later works.

Early on they were one of the races Morgoth bred in the darkness underground, but as the setting changed Tolkien dropped them. They were mentioned along with trolls in an early draft of the LotR, but got removed in the version that was published, but they remained as a little quirk in the Hobbit. The hobbit also references ogres in the riddle game, another of the evil creatures from early versions of the setting that got dropped.

Adaptations generally run with them being a reclusive race of no clear origin, with a largely indifferent stance to the smaller races but being more likely to side with the forces of orcs and evil men than to side with the forces of good. Not evil as a race, but certainly not good.

[Corvus]

Just on the dwarves and trees and wood and axes bit, and Aule's comment on 'but they will need wood,' he says that about the Children of Iluvatar (ie elves and humans) and not just the dwarves. Trees will be cut down and used by everyone, not just his race.

[Khedrac]

I think it interesting that all the characters specifically called out as "Half-Elven" descended from Luthien and so perhaps had a special quality that other human-elf pairing children did not.

Also although Tolkein says several times that Morgoth could not create but only copy and mar (with the example given that trolls were created to rival Ents, we know that this is not true - Morgoth created Dragons, and they were not in the image of anything else, they were created purely as a weapon.

[factotum]

we know that this is not true - Morgoth created Dragons, and they were not in the image of anything else, they were created purely as a weapon.

Eh? Pretty sure it's explicitly stated that dragons are corrupted Eagles. Morgoth's ability to corrupt life doesn't mean that what he produces has to look anything like the original--Trolls are hardly carbon copies of Ents, they're even made of different materials (stone rather than wood).

[Grim Portent]

I think dragons and trolls fit more with one of the ideas Tolkien had for the origin of the more monstrous servants of Morgoth, that they were bred from beasts, fallen maiar and things hewn from stone and slime. Not all fallen maiar became Balrogs, some became vampires and werewolves and other horrors, and in service to Morgoth they would spawn yet more wretched things. Sauron himself spent time as both a vampire and a werewolf.

In some iterations wargs were the result of maiar in wolf form (or possessing wolves) and wolves being bred together, producing large wolves with the power of speech and rational thought but without souls.

Dragons can be presumed to be a similar thing, but with lizards and snakes rather than wolves, and likely with more than a bit of Morogth himself in them. Their initial existence is merely as giant lizards or snakes with no wings or flame*, but they gradually grew in variety and power through successive breeding efforts.

It is important to note that even the creations of Morgoth that were made from scratch don't count as real creations, at least in some versions. Morgoth could make golems essentially, things that acted on direct orders and otherwise stood and did nothing much like how he could command a mountain to fall but it otherwise just sat there being a mountain. To give them life he had to give them bits of his own spirit, unlike Eru who could create souls and will from nothing. Orcs, trolls and so forth were not free thinking individuals, they were fragments of Morgoth's own malice, and being created from hate alone were capable of betraying Morgoth despite being basically mini-Morgoths.



*Glaurung is referred to as the Father of Dragons and is the first dragon used in battle by Morgoth and he had fire breath, but it's not specified if he was the first of all dragons to be created or simply the strongest of the early ones and the progenitor (physical or spiritual) of the fire dragons that came after him. Given that a lot of Morgoth's creations started out weak and got improved by successive efforts, I'm inclined to the latter, that Glaurung is simply the greatest dragon bred before the ones with wings.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

...
As for the redeemability of orcs, I was thinking a bit about that the other day after looking into the different ideas Tolkien had for their origin, and it's an issue he struggled with. The idea that Morgoth could make men or elves permanently evil didn't sit right with him, but a lot of his thoughts seemed to be more directed at making the orcs not be from human or elvish stock rather than making them redeemable. He seemed committed to the idea that orcs were inherently beings of hate, that they could never leave it behind and join the other races in the light.

A creative decision which I find a bit strange, Tolkien was no stranger to the idea that people could become evil through terrible circumstance or ignorance, and that leaving evil behind was difficult. I would have thought he'd have it so that orcs were made evil by the act of being in thrall to the dark lords and the societies they created, but that during the periods when they were left to their own devices they would begin to make faltering steps towards, if not redemption, then a less wretched existence. Perhaps he felt that wouldn't have fit the mythical tone he was trying to set.

The Professor struggled with the irredeemability of the evil races, but he eventually came to the concept that although naturally bad, they could theoretically be redeemed.

Here's a (heavily edited to excise religious commentary) quote from his lengthy letter #153:

"<The evil races were> Morgoth's greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of <sin>, and naturally bad. (I nearly wrote 'irredeemably bad'; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making – necessary to their actual existence – even Orcs would become part of the World, which is <divinely created> and ultimately good.)"

[Divayth Fyr]

*Glaurung is referred to as the Father of Dragons and is the first dragon used in battle by Morgoth and he had fire breath, but it's not specified if he was the first of all dragons to be created or simply the strongest of the early ones and the progenitor (physical or spiritual) of the fire dragons that came after him. Given that a lot of Morgoth's creations started out weak and got improved by successive efforts, I'm inclined to the latter, that Glaurung is simply the greatest dragon bred before the ones with wings.

I think the intent was for Glaurung to be the first fire dragon. Maybe not the first dragon at all, but we can't really say there. Although, we know he was revealed when still young and rather weak, meaning Morgoth didn't have much experience - so maybe he was the first...

[pendell]

I think the intent was for Glaurung to be the first fire dragon. Maybe not the first dragon at all, but we can't really say there. Although, we know he was revealed when still young and rather weak, meaning Morgoth didn't have much experience - so maybe he was the first...

He may have been the first true dragon. Tolkien mentions there was a predecessor species called the "Cold-drakes". I don't know if Morgoth created them before or alongside the dragons, but they were very similar to dragons except they had no breath weapon. They relied totally on teeth, claws, and tail like a giant dinosaur.

After Glaurang would come Ancalagon and the winged dragons; Glaurung didn't have wings. He had to go everywhere on foot like a lizard or snake.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[DavidSh]

After Glaurang would come Ancalagon and the winged dragons; Glaurung didn't have wings. He had to go everywhere on foot like a lizard or snake.

But since the First Age, things have degenerated. Snakes can't even go on foot anymore but have to crawl on their bellies.

[Caledonian]

He Who Was Melkor *did* create, but as he fell into evil the ability to exercise invention and generate new things declined as well. He's responsible for the element of gold, among other things - which is Tolkien's explanation for the relatively incorruptibility of gold, Morgoth's will infusing the world doesn't target it. It's also why something that seems not subject to corruption still induces greed and corruption in those that come across it. It's not evil in itself, but it's a focus for evil to work through.

[hamishspence]

He Who Was Melkor *did* create, but as he fell into evil the ability to exercise invention and generate new things declined as well. He's responsible for the element of gold, among other things - which is Tolkien's explanation for the relatively incorruptibility of gold, Morgoth's will infusing the world doesn't target it. It's also why something that seems not subject to corruption still induces greed and corruption in those that come across it. It's not evil in itself, but it's a focus for evil to work through.

History of Middle Earth: Morgoth's Ring, says the complete opposite (in one of Tolkien's essays) - that Melkor's attempt to infuse the whole of Arda with corruption, was more successful with with some things than others, one of which was gold.

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Melkor ‘incarnated’ himself (as Morgoth) permanently. He did this so as to control the hroa, the ‘flesh’ or physical matter, of Arda. He attempted to identify himself with it. A vaster, and more perilous procedure, though of similar sort to the operations of Sauron with the Rings. Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all ‘matter’ was likely to have a ‘Melkor ingredient’, and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda, had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits.
But in this way Morgoth lost (or exchanged, or transmuted) the greater part of his original 'angelic' powers, of mind and spirit, while gaining a terrible grip upon the physical world. For this reason he had to be fought, mainly by physical force, and enormous material ruin was a probable consequence of any direct combat with him, victorious or otherwise.
This is the chief explanation of the constant reluctance of the Valar to come into open battle against Morgoth. Manwë's task and problem was much more difficult than Gandalf's. Sauron's, relatively smaller, power was concentrated; Morgoth's vast power was disseminated. The whole of Middle-earth was Morgoth's Ring, though temporarily his attention was mainly upon the North-west. Unless swiftly successful, War against him might well end in reducing all Middle-earth to chaos, possibly even all Arda. It is easy to say: It was the task and function of the Elder King to govern Arda and make it possible for the Children of Eru to live in it unmolested. But the dilemma of the Valar was this: Arda could only be liberated by a physical battle; but a probable result of such a battle was the irretrievable ruin of Arda.
Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the ‘matter’ of Arda. Sauron’s power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth’s power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such ‘magic’ and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)

It is quite possible, of course, that certain elements or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially evil trend — but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth. (This, of course, does not mean that any particular sea, stream, river, well, or even vessel of water could not be poisoned or defiled — as all things could.)

[Sapphire Guard]

My understanding was that Morgoth couldn't create anything, he could just twist what was already created? So Glaurang would have been a pre-existing creature changed into something else.

Like Aule could not give life to things independent of his will, that power only Eru has.

[Caledonian]

Well, now I don't know what to think. Gold is known for being materially incorruptible. It's also known for inspiring greed and avarice in human beings.

Morgoth is known for having favorites: his favorite color is what we'd now call orange, the color of imperfectly-carbon-burning flame, and his favorite substance was gold.

[pendell]

Okay, so today we're going to tackle two chapters; the second is only two pages long so I don't think it deserves a week on its own.

Of the coming of the elves and the captivity of Melkor
The elves get a life. Manwe gets a spine. Melkor gets busted.

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At story start the Valar are making Valinor in to their own little garden world and more or less ignoring larger middle earth. There are two exceptions mentioned in this chapter: Yavanna travelling through the lands of Middle Earth to preserve that which is fair and beautiful. Many of these creatures she finds she puts into hibernation, waiting for a better day. Orome is constantly mounting reconnaissance and harassment missions, patrolling middle earth both for information and to smack down any Melkor-monsters which cross his path.

Melkor himself is being a busy bee. He is putting his work into corrupting all creation that he can lays his hands on, changing animals into monsters. The woods under his shadow become places of dread, haunted by these terrible mutations.

He also gathers "those spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named in Middle Earth in later days. And in that dark time Melkor bred many other monsters of diverse shapes and kinds that long troubled the world."

He also created a fortress and armoury which he named "Angband" ("Iron Hell") as a line of first defense against an assault by the Valar, and he put Sauron in command of this fortress. Sauron is described as his 'lieutenant' at this point, his executive officer responsible for the day-to-day details of running Melkor's empire while Melkor concerns himself with the broader strategic questions, and with creating his creatures.

During their once-an-age standup, the Valar debate their next course of action.

Yavanna: The children of Eru are coming and Melkor is turning the world into a hellhole.
Tulkas: YEAH! Fight fight fight fight fight
Yavanna: So why don't we stop Melkor from messing up the world any further ...
Tulkas: Fight fight fight fight fight
Yavanna: So that the children, who are supposed to come any day now, won't enter a world of darkness.
Tulkas: Fight fight fight fight fight OOORAH!

Manwe listens to this, and turns to Mandos, who as the foreteller and oracle of the Valar says they should not do so. The children aren't here yet, and it is their fate to enter the world in darkness.

Manwe accepts this.

...

That's it? You're going to abandon children to an abusive environment because Fate? Really?
I think "fate" is an abdication of responsibility. It may be their "fate" but how much of this "fate" is a self-fulfilling prophecy because you make it so?
But Manwe and Mandos have their way, and the world remains in darkness.

Varda isn't particularly happy about this, so she heads to a pool of light from the trees, dips into them, and throws drops of them into heavens, creating stars. She creates several constellations, among them "Menelmacar with his shining belt", which must correspond to the constellation we call Orion. Last she creates Valacirca, the constellation of a sickle of doom, a sign of Valar and a challenge to Melkor. It is a constellation of Seven Stars apparently corresponding to what we know as the Big Dipper. I note that the palantiri were also seven -- perhaps one for each star, with astronomical correspondences?

And it is very shortly after these stars appear in the night sky that the elves awaken, in a bay of the Inland Sea of Helcar, at a place called Cuivienen, "Mere of Awakening".

Their first sound is of rushing water.

Their first light is the light of the stars of Elbereth, who will henceforth be the Valar they love more than any other. And they are a people of the moon and stars, while humans will be the people of the sun.

They called themselves the Quendi, "those who speak with voices".

And so it is that Orome, on one of his expeditions, hears singing voices , goes to investigate, and finds the Quendi in camp. He borrows one of their harps, and makes a song. Yet even so the elves when first they encounter him are terrified.

Melkor, it seems, has been a step ahead. There are rumors abroad thanks to Melkor that there is a terrible Dark Rider abroad in the land who runs down and devours any who wander astray. The text does not make clear whether Melkor actually sent out dark riders in imitation of Orome or merely sent lying rumors abroad, but one way or another the story is current among the elves, and quite a few of them, beholding this terrible rider, either flee or hide themselves.

For me, I think a rumor spreads more efficiently if it has a basis in fact. I think Melkor DID send out counterfeit riders, although their actions were no doubt magnified by the power of rumor, which is also something Melkor is good at .

So many of the elves flee but the bravest and most intelligent stick around long enough to face Orome, and perceive he is not a creature of darkness at all. And so a friendship is made. He calls them the Eldar, people of the stars.

As for the elves who flee or hide, some of them are captured by Melkor and brought to Utumno, where he works the same corruption on them that he's working on all the other creatures of creation which come within his grasp. "Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and mulitplied after the manner of the children of Illuvatar; and naught that had life of its own , nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning; so way the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the most vile deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar."


Orome returns to Valimar with the news that the Children of Iluvatar are at last awake and active in the world. Previously, the greatest objection to contesting with Melkor was the concern they would inadvertently slay the children in the war, but now that they know exactly where the elves are that objection no longer holds force. So Manwe agrees -- finally! -- to take the war to Melkor and shut him down.

Tulkas is ecstatic at this news. Aule is not because he's certain that the earth will experience great damage and tumult in the upcoming war, and he is absolutely correct in this. Even so, he provides at least one article for the war and I suspect he's also the one who forged the weapons, armour, and other gear used by the Valar in this contest.

Melkor ever after holds a grudge against the elves about this war since it was made for their sake, but I think he's being unfair. If the Valar are attacking because of the Elves they had also held back for eons because of those same elves; if the Elves had not been predicted Melkor would have been slapped down back when he first overthrew the lamps. So all things considered the Elves have kept him around for far longer than he would have otherwise; he owes them thanks rather than hatred, but I fear Melkor, like the later Saruman, has been all but devoured by envy and spite.

The Valar assault across the sea and curbstomp Angband, breaking the land in the process. Their next objective is to proceed to Cuivenien, where they post a strong guard to protect the elves from Melkor and from damage in the war. Thus having secured a primary objective, they pass onto Utumno, which they besiege for several years.

And we see the reason for Manwe's earlier reluctance and have to give him for some credit. How do you destroy a god-made underground fortress? Well, you have to rip open the land the fortress is in to expose it to the light. Which they do.

The forces they are bringing to bear are even stronger than atomic weapons; atomic weapons will destroy cities on the surface but it would take, many, MANY tsunga-class bombs to do what the Vala now do. The sea itself opens up and becomes wide and deep, plunging at least part of the battleground underwater. Where there are battles and targeted strikes there are only bays left behind, such as the Bay of Balar. This is as bad as multiple asteroid strikes; small wonder the Valar were reluctant and Aule was concerned.

This is why the Istari were sent in an advisory capacity without authority to challenge Sauron directly. If Gandalf had used his true power at Minas Tirith, the most likely outcome would be an expanded Bay of Belfalas where the city now stands. It's also the reason the question whether Gandalf or Dumbledore could win a fight is absurd. If Gandalf called on his true power as a Maia there isn't anything mortal who can stand up to him, and the collateral damage would probably destroy everything for many kilometers around the battle site.

Even so, they blow open the ground , exposing Utumno to the sky. They breach its fortifications to find Melkor has taken refuge in the absolute bottom pit. Tulkas takes charge and personally heads down, to challenge Melkor to personal combat. He wrestles him, subdues him, and cuffs him with a chain named Angainor, specially created by Aule for the purpose. Then Melkor is taken back captive to Valinor to answer for his crimes.

Wait a minute .. if Melkor was the mightiest Valar, how could Tulkas defeat him? I believe the answer is that Melkor isn't what he was when he first entered Ea. That's an artifact of magic in Ea in that when you take some of your own life force to put it into something else, you never get it back . That part of you is just gone, permanently and forever. It happened to Sauron when he took part of himself and put it in the one ring. It happened to Yavanna (as we will see) when she created the Two Trees. And it happened to Melkor as well.

Melkor has been profligate with his own life force polluting the land, creating monsters and orcs and (presumably) trolls. So he's not quite what he was at the beginning. Besides, he is a king with many calls on his duties while Tulkas does nothing else besides fight. And so Tulkas slaps him around , chains him, and takes him away captive.

Even so, in their haste the Valar make some mistakes; while Utumno is permanently unuseable Angband is left in a repairable state, nor do they explore all the deeps and vaults of either Angband or Utumno, with the result the world will be haunted by some pretty awful creatures who might otherwise have been destroyed.

Melkor is brought before Manwe and, being utterly without any virtue at this point, pleads most piteously for pardon. Manwe's having none of it, and Melkor is put in Mando's halls in prison for three ages, at which point he'll be eligible for parole.

So now what?

The Valar have a new council. Ulmo argues they should be allowed to run free in Arda to heal the damage caused by Melkor and the war, but the bulk of the Valar feel protective of the new children and decide to call them to their new garden-spot of Valimar to live forever. After the decision is made, Mandos says , "so it is doomed (ordained)". Which is not exactly a ringing endorsement, and the Valar will have much cause to rue this mistake afterwards.

The elves are reluctant to accompany these shining beings to Valimar -- the Valar are pretty terrifying! Orome goes to the elves as ambassador and selects three of their number to visit and bring back report to their people -- Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe, who will also be kings of the elves in time. They come, they saw, they are enamoured, they return to bring a good report of the new land to the elves back at the lake.

Even so , many of the elves refuse the summons and remain in middle earth, which was probably the correct decision, since they are fulfilling the purpose Ulmo had suggested. These are called the Avari, the Unwilling, who will be called the Dark Elves. Legolas's people in Mirkwood are from this group.

Three kindreds of Elves make the journey to Valinor, which is long and slow, not least because there are no roads or even paths in the wilderness at this time, not to mention the still-extant creatures of Melkor who will kill stray travellers. These three kindreds are :

1) The Fair Elves, led by Ingwe. These are the goody-two-shoes people; Ingwe leads his people to Valinor, sits at the feet of the Valar, and stays there happily ever after. Very few humans have ever spoken with fair elves; except for a brief time during the War of Wrath, when they fight alongside the Valar, you'd have to go to Valinor to meet the Fair Elves. They get along best with Manwe and Varda.

2) The Deep Elves, led by Olwe and Elwe. These are called the Noldor, and are the close friends of Aule. They will later return to Middle-Earth as colonists, so almost all the story of the high-elves you read in the Silmarillion are about the Noldor.

3) The Sea-Elves, the Teleri. The last and largest group. They have an extremely slow journey to Middle-Earth and for many years they are on the shores of the sea, and on the isle of Tol Eressea, where they are content. One of their number, one Lenwe, has had enough of the march and leads a portion of them back into Middle-Earth. These are called the Nandor, and were also considered Dark Elves, living by water, dwelling by falls and running streams. At the end of this chapter the Teleri are still in Middle-Earth on the shores of the sea, though that will change soon.

We also have first mention of the Misty Mountains, which had their origins as a terrain hazard created by Melkor to slow down Orome. These are extremely tall and the Teleri find them daunting, though they eventually make it through. Elwe returns to urge them onward.

And that's where our chapter ends -- with Melkor in chains and the elves either in Valinor or in transit there.

Of Thingol And Melian
Love at first sight!

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We hear tell of Melian, a Maiar in the service of Yavanna, to whom she is akin. Nightingales travel with her, whom she taught to sing, and she loves the trees. Small wonder, then, that she encounters elves in these tree-ish places, and one of them is Elwe, ambassador to Valinor for the elves.

Elwe hears her singing in the woods and goes to investigate. He looks at her. She looks at him. They are so totally in love they just stay like that for .. centuries? His own people can't find him, and eventually leave for Valinor without him.

When he comes to himself he and Melian settle in Middle-Earth together as husband and wife. Elves gather to him, and they form a kingdom. He takes a new name, Elu Thingol, and his people are called the Sindarin, the grey-elves or elves of the twilight, because their leader had been to Valinor even if the rest of them had not, and because they have this and the guidance of Melian they're a step above the Moriquendi ("Dark elves") of the rest of Middle-Earth. It is also written Melian "lent" Thingol a great deal of power, "and of the love of Thingol and Melian there came into the world the fairest of all the children of Iluvatar that was or shall ever be."

Quick note but in this Tolkien is following Greek tradition , in which the offspring of gods and mortals are the 'heroes' of renown. In Babylon, these are where the stories of the Giants come from, although in other better-known mythologies these are considered utterly evil. Even so, the offspring of this union of Maiar and mortal works out well for the world.

I'd like to say Melian and Thingol lived happily ever after , but that's not strictly true. They DID have many thousands of years of "happy ever after" , which is more than any mortal has a right to ask for, in my view.

And that's it! See you next week of "Eldamar and the princes of the Eldalie"!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

Yeah, the theme of putting power into objects draining that of the creator is quite common in Tolkien's works, I guess because he felt it better to rely on your own resources than to make a prop to help you? Although there are also different kinds of power. When Melkor is referred to as the mightiest of the Valar, that isn't necessarily talking about his martial prowess, while Tulkas puts pretty much all his power into fighting, so it's maybe not so surprising that he could beat down Melkor in a one-on-one fight. I would say Melkor hasn't really weakened himself all that much at this point--there are many points later in the tale where he loses some of his power, which we'll get to when we get to them!

[Fyraltari]

Last she creates Valacirca, the constellation of a sickle of doom, a sign of Valar and a challenge to Melkor. It is a constellation of Seven Stars apparently corresponding to what we know as the Big Dipper. I note that the palantiri were also seven -- perhaps one for each star, with astronomical correspondences?

Possibly. The Palatntiri were brought from Numenor by Elendil after the Downfall, presumably they were the property of his House. In which case there might have been more, belonging to other nobles. Also, the flag of Gondor portrays seven stars, one for each Palantir but I like to think they are organized like the Great Sickle.



As for the elves who flee or hide, some of them are captured by Melkor and brought to Utumno, where he works the same corruption on them that he's working on all the other creatures of creation which come within his grasp. "Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and mulitplied after the manner of the children of Illuvatar; and naught that had life of its own , nor the semblance of life, could ever Melkor make since his rebellion in the Ainulindale before the Beginning; so way the wise. And deep in their dark hearts the Orcs loathed the Master whom they served in fear, the maker only of their misery. This it may be was the most vile deed of Melkor, and the most hateful to Iluvatar."

Melkor[...]'s being unfair.

Shocker.

It's also the reason the question whether Gandalf or Dumbledore could win a fight is absurd. If Gandalf called on his true power as a Maia there isn't anything mortal who can stand up to him, and the collateral damage would probably destroy everything for many kilometers around the battle site.

Meh, Both Melkor and Sauron and several Balrogs would go on to fight humans and elves in physical combat without ever displaying this kind of power. And Gandalf is explicit that Third Age Sauron is mightier than he is, even as the White Wizard.

Wait a minute .. if Melkor was the mightiest Valar, how could Tulkas defeat him?

I think Melkor is mightiest but Tulkas is strongest. Melkor wins a wizard duel but Tulkas wins a wrestling match. Also Tulkas is probably the most skilled fighter of the two and raw stregnth isn't everything in a fight.

I believe the answer is that Melkor isn't what he was when he first entered Ea. That's an artifact of magic in Ea in that when you take some of your own life force to put it into something else, you never get it back . That part of you is just gone, permanently and forever. It happened to Sauron when he took part of himself and put it in the one ring. It happened to Yavanna (as we will see) when she created the Two Trees. And it happened to Melkor as well.

True as well, every being who gives themselves to evil ends up considerably diminished in this world. It's a consistent motif.

Even so, in their haste the Valar make some mistakes; while Utumno is permanently unuseable Angband is left in a repairable state, nor do they explore all the deeps and vaults of either Angband or Utumno, with the result the world will be haunted by some pretty awful creatures who might otherwise have been destroyed.

Honestly, this lack of thoroughness is the worst mistake of the Valar in my opinion. Nearly everything else happened because they didn't take the time to properly deal with Melkor's servants.

The Valar have a new council. Ulmo argues they should be allowed to run free in Arda to heal the damage caused by Melkor and the war, but the bulk of the Valar feel protective of the new children and decide to call them to their new garden-spot of Valimar to live forever. After the decision is made, Mandos says , "so it is doomed (ordained)". Which is not exactly a ringing endorsement, and the Valar will have much cause to rue this mistake afterwards.

Which is weird because the Undying Lands end up being the only place the Quendi can live in. I guess they were invited too early?

Even so , many of the elves refuse the summons and remain in middle earth, which was probably the correct decision, since they are fulfilling the purpose Ulmo had suggested. These are called the Avari, the Unwilling, who will be called the Dark Elves. Legolas's people in Mirkwood are from this group.

The origins of the Myrkwood Elves is rather obscure but I think they're supposed to be Nandor maybe with some Avari thrown in) with Sindarin (or part Sindarin) royalty. Note that they are the same people as the Galadrim (Galadriel and Celeborn's people, the name is a coincidence) but split in two different kingdoms.

[/quote]
2) The Deep Elves, led by Olwe and Elwe. These are called the Noldor, and are the close friends of Aule. They will later return to Middle-Earth as colonists, so almost all the story of the high-elves you read in the Silmarillion are about the Noldor.

3) The Sea-Elves, the Teleri. The last and largest group. They have an extremely slow journey to Middle-Earth and for many years they are on the shores of the sea, and on the isle of Tol Eressea, where they are content. One of their number, one Lenwe, has had enough of the march and leads a portion of them back into Middle-Earth. These are called the Nandor, and were also considered Dark Elves, living by water, dwelling by falls and running streams. At the end of this chapter the Teleri are still in Middle-Earth on the shores of the sea, though that will change soon.[/quote]
Finwë was king of the Noldor. Elwë and Olwë ruled over the Teleri whose name means "Late-comers", the Sea Elves are a subset of the Teleri, specifically the Falmari, those who made it to Valimar.

Elwe hears her singing in the woods and goes to investigate. He looks at her. She looks at him. They are so totally in love they just stay like that for .. centuries? His own people can't find him, and eventually leave for Valinor without him.

Kind of raises the question of just how far from the camp he had wandered off.

[Talakeal]

This is why the Istari were sent in an advisory capacity without authority to challenge Sauron directly. If Gandalf had used his true power at Minas Tirith, the most likely outcome would be an expanded Bay of Belfalas where the city now stands. It's also the reason the question whether Gandalf or Dumbledore could win a fight is absurd. If Gandalf called on his true power as a Maia there isn't anything mortal who can stand up to him, and the collateral damage would probably destroy everything for many kilometers around the battle site.

And here we get to my LoTR pet peeve, the inevitable Gandalf fan-wank.

Spoiler: Rant

Show

Gandalf is a Maiar, not a Valar, and even among Maiar, though he is the wisest of them, he is not among the most powerful.

There are many times were Gandalf is stymied or threatened by mortals, and there are many times when Maiar are bested or even killed by exceptional mortals, and some exceptional elves even trick or stand their ground against the Valar.

Gandalf the grey is threatened by orcs and wargs several times, killed by a balrog, and captured by Sarumon. We are told both in and put of character he is far weaker than Sauron, and the Witch King thinks he has a shot at taking down the white wizard.

Likewise, the balrog fights Gandalf to a double death, and other Balrogs were killed by elves in the first age. Sarumon was defeated by ents. And Sauron was captured by the numenoreans and then slain by gil galad and erendil.

In short, I think the power of Maiar, and Gandalf in particular, is greatly overstated by the fanbase.

[Caledonian]

Now this I KNOW I remember:

It's not strictly true that, when you put power into something, it's gone forever. But reclaiming the power is an exercise of power. Put enough of yourself into something, you can't get it back, because what's left of you isn't strong enough to retrieve the power.

Sauron was vulnerable because he committed almost all his remaining power to the Ring. He couldn't come back from doing so.

[factotum]

In short, I think the power of Maiar, and Gandalf in particular, is greatly overstated by the fanbase.

Counterpoint: Melian in the First Age was able to completely protect Doriath from attack from without via the Girdle of Melian she cast around the woods. That indicates a pretty hefty level of power when she was directly facing Morgoth and his minions, especially considering the large area she had to cover.

We simply don't know just how potent Maiar are generally. All your examples apply to Gandalf as a member of the Istari, who are forbidden from using their innate power and must instead rely on the power that is available to all in Middle-earth. Him being less powerful than Sauron does not make him powerless in any way, shape or form. I'm not arguing that Gandalf, free of restraints, could single-handedly nuke Mordor, but the idea that he really couldn't do much at all is way too far in the other direction.

[Fyraltari]

Counterpoint: Melian in the First Age was able to completely protect Doriath from attack from without via the Girdle of Melian she cast around the woods. That indicates a pretty hefty level of power when she was directly facing Morgoth and his minions

She faces Sauron but never Morgoth.

We simply don't know just how potent Maiar are generally. All your examples apply to Gandalf as a member of the Istari, who are forbidden from using their innate power and must instead rely on the power that is available to all in Middle-earth. Him being less powerful than Sauron does not make him powerless in any way, shape or form. I'm not arguing that Gandalf, free of restraints, could single-handedly nuke Mordor, but the idea that he really couldn't do much at all is way too far in the other direction.

That does not explain the Balrogs and Sauron falling to Elves and Men or Gandalf when they don't share those same restrictions.

I think you could partly explain it by saying the most potent magics moght require some kind of ritual to work and so aren't suited for combat, but ultimately I think the only sane way is to admit the stories aren't very consistent and make our peace with it.

[Caledonian]

When told he is being sent to Middle-Earth, Gandalf demurs, saying that he fears the power of Sauron. He is then told that is precisely why he is being chosen to go. "Nolo episcopari."

He doesn't fear Sauron because Sauron can punch him in the face really hard. He fears Sauron because Sauron's power is corruptive to the degree that learning too much about it seduces the learner into becoming its agent. Huan the Hound physically beat up Sauron, that's not the problem. If Gandalf began using the same methods Sauron has, redirecting the power Morgoth infused into Middle-Earth in the same way, it wouldn't be too difficult for his sheer power to defeat him. But then who would defeat Gandalf?

[Talakeal]

When told he is being sent to Middle-Earth, Gandalf demurs, saying that he fears the power of Sauron. He is then told that is precisely why he is being chosen to go. "Nolo episcopari."

He doesn't fear Sauron because Sauron can punch him in the face really hard. He fears Sauron because Sauron's power is corruptive to the degree that learning too much about it seduces the learner into becoming its agent. Huan the Hound physically beat up Sauron, that's not the problem. If Gandalf began using the same methods Sauron has, redirecting the power Morgoth infused into Middle-Earth in the same way, it wouldn't be too difficult for his sheer power to defeat him. But then who would defeat Gandalf?

Counterpoint: Melian in the First Age was able to completely protect Doriath from attack from without via the Girdle of Melian she cast around the woods. That indicates a pretty hefty level of power when she was directly facing Morgoth and his minions, especially considering the large area she had to cover.

We simply don't know just how potent Maiar are generally. All your examples apply to Gandalf as a member of the Istari, who are forbidden from using their innate power and must instead rely on the power that is available to all in Middle-earth. Him being less powerful than Sauron does not make him powerless in any way, shape or form. I'm not arguing that Gandalf, free of restraints, could single-handedly nuke Mordor, but the idea that he really couldn't do much at all is way too far in the other direction.

So why don’t Sarumon or the Balrogs do exactly that?

[Sapphire Guard]

'Maiar' is not a power level. They vary and have different specialties. 'They're both Maiar' is not the same thing as 'they have the same amount of magic points'

One thing Tolkien is very good at is understanding how tough a long journey on foot is.

[factotum]

I think you could partly explain it by saying the most potent magics moght require some kind of ritual to work and so aren't suited for combat, but ultimately I think the only sane way is to admit the stories aren't very consistent and make our peace with it.

Part of the issue is that the power level of Men and Elves varies wildly throughout the series. In the First Age we have men single-handedly killing dozens of orcs in a fight, whereas later men are not as good--Boromir, when attempting to rescue the hobbits, is supposed to have killed more than twenty, and he was one of the mightiest warriors of his age. I doubt a Third Age dwarf could wound a dragon so severely with a single stroke that they run from the field of battle, either, but that totally happened in the First Age.

[pendell]

So why don’t Sarumon or the Balrogs do exactly that?

I'm willing to concede at this point that Saruman and Gandalf both had greatly de-powered as Istari and Saruman could not return to his Final Form when Parlaying with Gandalf at Orthanc. However, even if he could, it would have been unwise of him to do so, since the battle site would have been his own tower of Orthanc. Who sets off a grenade in his own parlor?

As to the balrogs, we only encounter one in the story itself. When Gandalf and Balrog DO fight they break a mountain pretty badly in the process. All we saw of the fight was the standoff on the bridge in Khazad-Dum. Given that they were in close quarters, any use of power beyond what the Balrog displayed would have meant bringing the cavern down on all their heads. The balrog probably didn't care greatly about the lives of the orcs, but being buried under tons of rock would still be awfully inconvenient.

As towards the First Age, those times we see Balrogs in combat with elves and men is many centuries after the war of the Powers we just witnessed, and some of those elves were pretty powerful in their own right. In the books Glorfindel shows up to fight the Nine at the Fords of Bruinen and his power, seen from the other side of the shadow world, is downright terrifying.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

In the books Glorfindel shows up to fight the Nine at the Fords of Bruinen and his power, seen from the other side of the shadow world, is downright terrifying.

IIRC Glorfindel is a Noldor who returned from the Blessed Realm in the First Age, so part of the reason he has such power is because he saw the light of the Trees. The average Elf who never went to Aman and is just hanging on in Middle-earth because it's their home and they don't want to leave it would not be so terrifying. (See also: Galadriel when she and Frodo spoke in Lothlorien).

[Divayth Fyr]

IIRC Glorfindel is a Noldor who returned from the Blessed Realm in the First Age, so part of the reason he has such power is because he saw the light of the Trees. The average Elf who never went to Aman and is just hanging on in Middle-earth because it's their home and they don't want to leave it would not be so terrifying. (See also: Galadriel when she and Frodo spoke in Lothlorien).

It goes even beyond that - he was born in the Blessed realm and saw the Trees, which would put him above almost all elves we could meet in LotR, but (long) after he went to Middle-Earth during the Flight of the Ñoldor, he sacrificed his life to kill a Balrog, protecting the elves fleeing Gondolin. His reward was not only a shortened stay in the Halls of Mandos, but also Manwë deciding to send him back to Middle-Earth (something that basically never happens) with a further power boost, supposedly elevating him to be more like a Maia than a "mere" elf.