Prediction Page, (bring your quatloos, gps, and internets, you'll need them.)

[Peelee]

A hundred gold that Kraagor isn't dead, and as the one Scribbler who wasn't involved in the breakup will be able to shed the least biased light on what exactly went down during that final battle, s will as changing our perception of the Snarl.

[Ruck]

A hundred gold that Kraagor isn't dead, and as the one Scribbler who wasn't involved in the breakup will be able to shed the least biased light on what exactly went down during that final battle, s will as changing our perception of the Snarl.

I don't know if it's a favorite, but I think it's not impossible. "Kraagor was drawn into the rift before it was sealed and we don't actually know what happened after that" seems like the most likely scenario, and then it's not an unrealistic conclusion that what happened isn't what we were led to believe happened.

[brian 333]

A hundred gold that Kraagor isn't dead, and as the one Scribbler who wasn't involved in the breakup will be able to shed the least biased light on what exactly went down during that final battle, s will as changing our perception of the Snarl.

I'll take that bet! I think we will see Dorukon and Lirian before we see Kraagor. I think everyone before Laurin got unraveled.

[Jasdoif]

A hundred gold that Kraagor isn't dead, and as the one Scribbler who wasn't involved in the breakup will be able to shed the least biased light on what exactly went down during that final battle, s will as changing our perception of the Snarl.

Pretty bold, what with the likelihood that Kraagor wasn't present/alive for the entirety of that battle. I'll call your bet with this mahogany chaise longue, upholstered with black velvet and warded against acid.

[Peelee]

Pretty bold, what with the likelihood that Kraagor wasn't present/alive for the entirety of that battle. I'll call your bet with this mahogany chaise longue, upholstered with black velvet and warded against acid.

I think we might be talking about different battles. I mean against the Snarl, not against each other.

Also, i deal in gold. Y'all can toss random junk at each other, i only accept cash.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't know if it's a favorite, but I think it's not impossible. "Kraagor was drawn into the rift before it was sealed and we don't actually know what happened after that" seems like the most likely scenario, and then it's not an unrealistic conclusion that what happened isn't what we were led to believe happened.

Two centavos that Kraagor is sitting on a beach in the rift-snarl-world, sipping margaritas (when he isn't hunting or fishing - he's a barbarian, eh?) and wondering where the rest of the Scribblers are.

[Metastachydium]

Also, i deal in gold.

How about rhodium? Goes well with those scales. Worth a lot.

Y'all can toss random junk at each other

Also, mahogany is murder!

Two centavos that Kraagor is sitting on a beach in the rift-snarl-world, sipping margaritas (when he isn't hunting or fishing - he's a barbarian, eh?) and wondering where the rest of the Scribblers are.

You're on, chief.

[Jasdoif]

I think we might be talking about different battles. I mean against the Snarl, not against each other.

I am indeed talking about the battle against the Snarl, the one that ended up with a statue of him.

Also, mahogany is murder!

It's currently outliving the black dragon who commissioned it, does that count for anything?

[Metastachydium]

It's currently outliving the black dragon who commissioned it

…insofar as a chaise longue is, like living.

[brian 333]

Pretty bold, what with the likelihood that Kraagor wasn't present/alive for the entirety of that battle. I'll call your bet with this mahogany chaise longue, upholstered with black velvet and warded against acid.

I think we might be talking about different battles. I mean against the Snarl, not against each other.

Also, i deal in gold. Y'all can toss random junk at each other, i only accept cash.

Can I buy the lounge from you for 100 gp? You can win the bet and get rid of a commissioned piece for which payment was not tendered. And I'll pay extra to have it warded against pet hair. I don't have a pet, but some of my friends are hippies.

[Ruck]

Pretty bold, what with the likelihood that Kraagor wasn't present/alive for the entirety of that battle.

You think that's likely? From what we know, Kraagor was alive while the rift-sealing spell was cast, and I can't imagine there was much of a battle after the rift was sealed.

[Peelee]

You think that's likely? From what we know, Kraagor was alive while the rift-sealing spell was cast, and I can't imagine there was much of a battle after the rift was sealed.

Exactly. Sure, he wasn't around for the aftermath, but that was just the others bickering.

[Jasdoif]

…insofar as a chaise longue is, like living.

Better than the dragon....I'm not sure how exactly one pisses off a lord of the abyss this badly, but apparently her bones were unraveled into threads that are still a sieve in some sort of sewage plant on some demiplane or other? (And that's the story of why I started paying insurance premiums on manifestations of object reading.)

Can I buy the lounge from you for 100 gp?

Tell ya what: you can just have it. If Peelee isn't even interested in black velvet, with that slow Southern style, finding another dragon who'll trade for it seems like a lost cause.

Pretty bold, what with the likelihood that Kraagor wasn't present/alive for the entirety of that battle.

You think that's likely? From what we know, Kraagor was alive while the rift-sealing spell was cast, and I can't imagine there was much of a battle after the rift was sealed.

I feel like we'd have gotten a different reaction from Girard if the sealing spell was fast enough that that was what killed Kraagor (as in, Girard would compare Soon's blame to Dorukan's or Lirian's for actually killing him), and if it took longer then who knows what happened between the start of the spell and its completion? Other than, as you say, Kraagor's presumed death.

[Peelee]

How about rhodium?

Depends. Is it gold? Cause i take gold.

Can I buy the lounge from you for 100 gp?

You can buy the chaise longue from Jasdoif. That way they have the gold if i win and you have the chaise. And, most importantly, that way i only take gold.

[Ruck]

I feel like we'd have gotten a different reaction from Girard if the sealing spell was fast enough that that was what killed Kraagor (as in, Girard would compare Soon's blame to Dorukan's or Lirian's for actually killing him), and if it took longer then who knows what happened between the start of the spell and its completion? Other than, as you say, Kraagor's presumed death.

I mean, here's the strip in question.

Soon: Cast the spell! Seal the rift!
Lirian: No! Not until you're both clear!
Soon: DO IT!!

Kraagor is standing closer to the rift and the Snarl than Soon, and Soon still isn't clear of its range. Then in the next strip, Soon is alive and Kraagor is not.

I think it's heavily implied that the spell to seal the rift caught Kraagor somehow, probably sealing him in with the Snarl.

[Jasdoif]

I think it's heavily implied that the spell to seal the rift caught Kraagor somehow, probably sealing him in with the Snarl.

Oh it's definitely implied, it wouldn't be a good subject for a bet if it wasn't.

[Ruck]

Oh it's definitely implied, it wouldn't be a good subject for a bet if it wasn't.

Well, you said "the likelihood that Kraagor wasn't present/alive for the entirety of that battle," so I'm wondering when you think he died before the battle ended, or if you don't think the battle ended when the rift was sealed, or what.

[brian 333]

In that case, it is equally likely that Soon's wife, the forest creatures, and anyone else who happened to disappear in proximity to a rift may still be alive.

Out of the billion+ worlds so far, the gods have not seen any examples of this, or they might have said something. Instead, they clearly state that the people, including their souls, are unmade by The Snarl.

The gods appear to be unaware of the world in the rift, so this time may be unique. I'm not betting on it, though. I'm holding out for Laurin to be the first sentient being to communicate with The Snarl.

[Ruck]

In that case, it is equally likely that Soon's wife, the forest creatures, and anyone else who happened to disappear in proximity to a rift may still be alive.

First panel of the comic I already linked. Soon's wife didn't disappear.

[Jasdoif]

Well, you said "the likelihood that Kraagor wasn't present/alive for the entirety of that battle," so I'm wondering when you think he died before the battle ended, or if you don't think the battle ended when the rift was sealed, or what.

While it's possible the rift sealing spell petrified Kraagor and made him unable to be affected by e.g. stone to flesh and the statue was made in that image...why is his posture so different from suddenly-mid-battle, and why would Girard describe it as "died in that rift"? And if the panels are cutting directly from mid-battle to a post-battle ceremony with a statue already completed, what's the basis for estimating the timeline?

Peelee did the rest of the work with the bet: If Kraagor can't provide an account of enough of the battle for it to be the least biased, if Kraagor's account is at least as biased as the others', if Kraagor's account doesn't recontextualize expectations of the Snarl, if Kraagor's account doesn't mean he isn't dead, or if Kraagor doesn't provide an account; he loses. The first part just has the least shallow level of "I dunno maybe", hence my focus on it as the most potentially interesting area for discussion. Also gave me an excuse to recycle a reference to the Alannah Myles song that I couldn't fit in a different thread, so I already made progress in some form o_o

[Ruck]

While it's possible the rift sealing spell petrified Kraagor and made him unable to be affected by e.g. stone to flesh and the statue was made in that image...why is his posture so different from suddenly-mid-battle, and why would Girard describe it as "died in that rift"? And if the panels are cutting directly from mid-battle to a post-battle ceremony with a statue already completed, what's the basis for estimating the timeline?

I'm even more confused by your position now, because it sounds to me like you're agreeing with me, or at least offering evidence that supports my position.

I see the facts as:
-Lirian and Dorukan cast the spell to seal the rift while Soon and Kraagor are still in danger.
-Soon remains safe, but Kraagor, per Girard, "die[s] in that rift."
-The rift is sealed, ending the battle.

So, again, I'm wondering how much time you think passes between #2 and #3. Because I think this is a relatively quick process, as opposed to something where the spell took an extended length of time, and Kraagor and Soon kept fighting valiantly but ultimately the former succumbed. (Among other things, if the spell took a long time, Kraagor and Soon would have a long time to get away from the rift before it closed, so the urgency of "Not until you're both clear!" doesn't make much sense to me.)

[brian 333]

One possible scenario if the Geas on MitD does work:

For as yet unknown reasons Redcloak directly opposes Xykon.

Before Xykon can do more than fire off a contingency or two the Geas activates and MitD swallows Redcloak whole.

Facing the entire Order alone, Xykon chooses the better part of valor and retreats to his fortress.

Following the final provision of the Geas, MitD spits out the necklace with Redcloak still inside it.

O'Chul and MitD enjoy a game of Go.


I assign a very low probability to this exact scenario, but something like it might happen, such as Redcloak's contingency firing and he teleports away when MitD tries to eat him.

In any case, if anything similar happens I would consider it a win. So, if the Geas on MitD activates, I bet two seedling tung trees that the scenario plays out generally as described above.

[Jasdoif]

I'm even more confused by your position now, because it sounds to me like you're agreeing with me, or at least offering evidence that supports my position.

Basically: you're describing a viable possibility, but one I don't think is concrete enough to be confident in treating it as the answer.

I see the facts as:
-Lirian and Dorukan cast the spell to seal the rift while Soon and Kraagor are still in danger.
-Soon remains safe, but Kraagor, per Girard, "die[s] in that rift."
-The rift is sealed, ending the battle.

So, again, I'm wondering how much time you think passes between #2 and #3. Because I think this is a relatively quick process, as opposed to something where the spell took an extended length of time, and Kraagor and Soon kept fighting valiantly but ultimately the former succumbed. (Among other things, if the spell took a long time, Kraagor and Soon would have a long time to get away from the rift before it closed, so the urgency of "Not until you're both clear!" doesn't make much sense to me.)

Why is "Soon remains safe" on #2? Wouldn't Kraagor's death mean Soon was still in danger of dying the same way? I mean, if Kraagor died (or was otherwise incapacitated) by Soon pushing him into the rift while running away or something, I think Girard would opt for "murderous" over "cowardly". And if the spell could be cast from a safe distance, what the heck were Kraagor and Soon doing so close to the rift?

I doubt all three of Kraagor's "removal", Soon's (apparent?) cowardice, and the rift's sealing happened in the same instant by coincidence...nor by correlation, as I doubt even more that sealing the rift could be responsible for both Kraagor and Soon. The two panels feel strongly of hinting at a convergence and letting the audience accept that by not lingering on it...much like the times the comic's hidden details to allow for a surprise reveal to recontextualize our understanding of events in the comic. Where the likelihood that this is another such time falls on the spectrum between implausibility and certainty, I suppose we all can only decide for ourselves.

[Kish]

I think most likely, the spell gave both Soon and Kraagor a Reflex save to leap clear and avoid being trapped in the rift when the Gate formed. Soon's dice liked him better than Kraagor's liked him. Girard, paragon of moral reasoning that he was, looked at an outcome he didn't like and decided that Divine Grace was cheating. Kraagor's death, the Gate's creation, and the Snarl being trapped thus all happened at the same moment.

I'm not betting anything on it, that just strikes me as the most likely events.

[Ruck]

I think most likely, the spell gave both Soon and Kraagor a Reflex save to leap clear and avoid being trapped in the rift when the Gate formed. Soon's dice liked him better than Kraagor's liked him. Girard, paragon of moral reasoning that he was, looked at an outcome he didn't like and decided that Divine Grace was cheating. Kraagor's death, the Gate's creation, and the Snarl being trapped thus all happened at the same moment.

I'm not betting anything on it, that just strikes me as the most likely events.

Yeah, which is for all intents and purposes both instantaneous and correlated. I remain confused as to what Jasdoif thinks happened, how he thinks it happened, and the chronology of what he thinks happened.

[Tubercular Ox]

I'll bet a bag of Hanukkah Gelt that Redcloak gets swallowed whole, then retrieved, then everyone will be surprised he's not dead.

[Lord Torath]

I'll bet a bag of Hanukkah Gelt that Redcloak gets swallowed whole, then retrieved, then everyone will be surprised he's not dead.

I mean, it wouldn't be the first time.

As Elan said in one of the calendars, "'Chews food thoroughly before swallowing' is a much more powerful ability than 'Swallow whole'."

[Jasdoif]

I remain confused as to what Jasdoif thinks happened, how he thinks it happened, and the chronology of what he thinks happened.

Something other than what you describe. Like...I don't think saying "a d20 roll coming out even is more likely than a natural 1" requires me to choose which of 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, or 20 is the outcome; if I was confident in precisely what happened, I'd be better served betting on that.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think most likely, the spell gave both Soon and Kraagor a Reflex save to leap clear and avoid being trapped in the rift when the Gate formed. Soon's dice liked him better than Kraagor's liked him. Girard, paragon of moral reasoning that he was, looked at an outcome he didn't like and decided that Divine Grace was cheating. Kraagor's death, the Gate's creation, and the Snarl being trapped thus all happened at the same moment.

I'm not betting anything on it, that just strikes me as the most likely events.

Yes it does.
Girard's attitudes may not be further explained, but we may get a little more insight as to whether or not he was a bigger, or lesser, jerk than the on screen evidence to date indicates.

[Ruck]

Something other than what you describe. Like...I don't think saying "a d20 roll coming out even is more likely than a natural 1" requires me to choose which of 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, or 20 is the outcome; if I was confident in precisely what happened, I'd be better served betting on that.

I guess I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around your position because I'm having a hard time picturing how it happened in some way other than as I described. You seem to think it's more likely it happened some other way, but I don't even have a framework for what that other way would look like, so it's hard for me to picture.