Who the Heck makes this stuff?

[mostlyharmful]

Given that it takes a high level caster months to create a powerful magic item, your time and resources (XP) gets ever more valuable, even with apprentices, acolytes and assistants it still takes up time and effort and combined with the unreliablity of people with that amount of cash to throw around and the inability for the creator to ensure that said item wont be used against them or their allies I've got something of a problem with some of the standerd ideas of what's expected to be available to combat based PCs.

The general theme of my point, were I to be said to have one, is that there are very significant drawbacks to making the sort of high level toys adventurers rely on. Now, I can well believe mages or clerics working on things to improve their own casting, maybe even some of the more versatile pieces of equipment but not the high end weapons or armour. This isn't to say that I can't envision the creation of magic weapons and such, it's a very lucrative market that casters have sewn up. Temples and churches obviously have armed wings that'd use this kind of stuff and mages may have some bodyguards that need a higher than average level of equipment but investing time and power into items that might be used against them in the future. There are potential safeguards that can be put in place using the guidelines in the DMG for ensuring that only those of a particular race/alignment/skill-set/?? but that can only be used if the DM is agreeable and even so UMD can be used to get around them. Taking the (potentially contentious use of FR here) example of the Thayan dealers in magic, they make a huge profit on the magic item trade but dot sell anything over +1 or +2 to long term, reliable customers not superweapons that become a liability the moment they're out of eyeline. There is statistically far more low level people running around the place, with far fewer able to create their own gear so the money angle becomes less and less reliable if not less profitable at higher enchantments.

Now the ruleset takes the existance of powerful equipment for granted but it seems unbeleivably dumb for anyone to create it without taking measures to keep track of it, to take a real world example while small arms might be sold in some countries or by some international companies no-one likes the thought of atomic weaponry and governments take a fairly dim view of trying to get hold of the damn stuff. So when the fighter gets his hand on the +4 Vorpal scimitar or the uber-armour of Dread it just jars something for me. for Arcane casters the reduction in high calibre ordinance makes them even stronger, for clerics you've got Greater Magic Weapon so they don't really need the huge bonuses and Druids don't need weapons at all.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, that's precisely why I've never used the "magical item market" principle in my campaign worlds.

[mostlyharmful]

Well, that's precisely why I've never used the "magical item market" principle in my campaign worlds.

even that doesn't cover it, given that your can pick up this stuff out of dragon hoardes, NPC equipment, crypts, whatever...

[KIDS]

I quite agree with you; most of those items are quite useless for a caster and one has to wonder why they'd make it, provided they even take the appropriate feat. Then one resorts to gifts of the gods, dragon hoards and ancient times, but that can be pulled out only so many times.

In the end, what I also hope to see in 4E, is a way to craft exceptional (like MW Rank 5, which gives +5 on attack rolls) or magical items for noncasters. Without it, your legendary swordsmith can only be a high level wiz/clr today, which is kind of depressing.

One method I do like and use to bypass the (for me) dumb magic market is Ancestral Relic feat from Book of Exalted Deeds. It's a general, not exalted feat, and lets anyone who takes it "disenchant" magical items to add to the power of the Relic he has chosen, i.e. enchant it. It in some ways resembles World of Warcraft's nicely made magic item crafting system (at least its' "enchanting") and makes sense for most characters.

[Fenix_of_Doom]

Well, the world has been around for a while, magic items are pretty strong, so they could have all survived for quite a while, also there are duskblades and eldrich knights around who would like to have weaponry too.

[Reinboom]

I always figured that most of the items were created over hundreds of years.
Your +4 Vorpal scimitar could've been made 456 years ago by a desert bounty hunter on the eastern continent. 390 years after his death, and after a lot of exchanges, it has fallen into your hands.
Your Armor was crafted 320 years ago.
Etc.

I figure that only a couple pieces of high powered equipment was crafted by any given individual. Over time, however, a lot of equipment overall has been crafted...

[Rowanomicon]

Well step one is to take Ye Olde Magic Shope out of every town. Buying and selling magical items should be constricted to very low power level items. Even then it's a pretty risky business dealing with people who have that kind of money to throw around.

Step two is to add a backstory to every high power level magic item that you give to the PCs in dragon-hordes and stuff. Such things should be plot related and very important to the PCs. Good examples of this can be found in Tolkien:

1) Sting, it is a very important thing to Bilbo and Frodo and is not later cast aside for a new sword with a higher number.

2) The Ring (and all Rings), it is a powerful item and the creator is doing his best to keep track of it and get it back.

3) Merry's anti-Angmar blade from the barrow downs, it is an important plot-device that allowed The Witch King to be killed.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Let's not bring LoTR to the debtate. LoTR is a really low power setting, so it crashes with the D&D system.


If you want to make a point, try Greyhawk history. Or FR.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Well step one is to take Ye Olde Magic Shope out of every town. Buying and selling magical items should be constricted to very low power level items. Even then it's a pretty risky business dealing with people who have that kind of money to throw around.

Look, every item in the game has a use. The only ones that should never see use are expensive ones where a cheaper direct equivalent is available in high supply. This means that, since a caster can make quite a lot of money crafting items, that there's certainly an incentive to do so. Combine a good incentive with a couple thousand years of history and it's quite likely you'll find whatever you need, even if it takes a little looking first.

EDIT: In fact, there's even a better explanation for bad ones. Someone thought that what the world really, really needed was foo, and spent his whole life developing and making thousands of them. Finally, he released it... and no one wanted it.

A hundred years later, a hero was fighting a lich who Disjunctioned him. Stripped of his gear, the hero fought back with the only thing at hand -- a foo. When he told his story, the things came back into vogue... until everyone discovered just how utterly useless foos are. Which means that there are now tens of thousands of t he things lying around in magic shops and hordes, collecting dust and waiting for the hero that for some reason simply must have a foo.

The first person to say "I pity the foo" gets SLAPPED.

Step two is to add a backstory to every high power level magic item that you give to the PCs in dragon-hordes and stuff. Such things should be plot related and very important to the PCs.

If something isn't important to a player, it's not going to be important to a PC. This is impossible to beat without taking control of the character away from the player, because a player is able to control a character's likes, dislikes and wants. If the player wants something, he can always come up with an RP reason to want it.

1) Sting, it is a very important thing to Bilbo and Frodo and is not later cast aside for a new sword with a higher number.

...Because they never find one.

2) The Ring (and all Rings), it is a powerful item and the creator is doing his best to keep track of it and get it back.

Yeah, because it contains his soul. I'd be willing to bet that Sauron'd have let it go if it didn't and something more powerful had come his way.

[Rowanomicon]

I'm simply giving examples of magic items with stories.

I don't mean that people should turn their D&D games in LotRs and I certainly don't want this thread to turn into people personal opinion of LotRs.

Also, I wasn't really debating with anyone; I was giving suggestions on how to make magic items in D&D games more important/fun than shiny objects being thrown around willy nilly.

One example that I used (The One Ring) was setting specific, but I did not mean that all magic items should be capable of spelling doom for the entire world and hunted down by the most powerful entity in the world. Sorry, I could have been more clear.

I simply meant The Ring (and other rings) to be examples of items that the creator tried to keep tabs on after creating it.

I'm not quite sure why you would choose to reprimand my choice of reference material rather than address the ideas that I presented or contribute something else relevant to the discuss.

Speaking of contributing relevant things to the discussion...

Fenix_of_Doom and SweetRein are right about magic items being crafted throughout history and surviving to fall into the hands of present day adventurers. I definitely like to use this approach and it also allows plenty of opportunity to craft epic backstories to go with your epic items as well as to have items be important to plot; if your PCs or NPCs are even a fraction the age of the items then they may have encountered them before.

Also Gish characters are good candidates for crafting magical arms and armor. Casters may also have granted powerful items to those who they knew would serve to further their ambitions (whether good or evil). Items, through the years, would also be given to seduce individuals into service... ...or reward them for service and deeds.

EDIT: Oop, new post while I posted, will go read now.

[TheLogman]

Two theories:

1. There is a Genesis Plane of Archivists where everyone is happy and there is pie. The Archivists make stuff.

2. The spirits of all TN wizards are whisked to a boring plane where they spent all the power they've amassed in life, spending all their XP (The Plane is special in that you can de-level via said loss) and gold until they get to level 1 Wizard, where they return to life, reincarnated as a Sorcerer.

[Rowanomicon]

Tsu, your explanation of how there are many foos starts out with someone thinking it's a good idea to make thousands of useless items.
Feel free to use whatever you like in your games, but that explanation seems like a bit of a cop-out to me.

No they didn't find a more powerful sword (besides ones that other characters owned/got), but the important point is that the magical item was important to them and not simply a number.
If the way you hand out magic items promises constantly improving equipment to the PCs at very reliable intervals then they will not care about the fluff of your items and only the mechanics.
I'm not saying you shouldn't give PCs better equipment as they level up.
I'm only saying that I enjoy games where magical items mean something more than the number attributed to them.

The bit The Ring was addressed already.

EDIT:

The spirits of all TN wizards are whisked to a boring plane where they spent all the power they've amassed in life, spending all their XP (The Plane is special in that you can de-level via said loss) and gold until they get to level 1 Wizard, where they return to life, reincarnated as a Sorcerer.

Mind if I use this in some comedy/high-magic game I run in the future? I love it.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Two theories:

1. There is a Genesis Plane of Archivists where everyone is happy and there is pie. The Archivists make stuff.

Midgard Dwarves, actually. Crack Frostburn to page 124 and read about 'em.

2. The spirits of all TN wizards are whisked to a boring plane where they spent all the power they've amassed in life, spending all their XP (The Plane is special in that you can de-level via said loss) and gold until they get to level 1 Wizard, where they return to life, reincarnated as a Sorcerer.

Bweheheh. I like that.

Tsu, your explanation of how there are many foos starts out with someone thinking it's a good idea to make thousands of useless items.
Feel free to use whatever you like in your games, but that explanation seems like a bit of a cop-out to me.

It happens in real life all the time, man. Just Google useless inventions.

I'm only saying that I enjoy games where magical items mean something more than the number attributed to them.

Hey, that's fine -- my point is that you can't make your players (and, by extension, their characters) feel that way if they disagree no matter what you do.

The bit The Ring was addressed already.

Not really. My point is that Sauron would have gone after it if it were a broken beer bottle that happened to contain his soul. The One Ring is probably the most famous MacGuffin in literary history besides the Holy Grail.

[Rowanomicon]

OK, I accept your point about The Ring holding a portion of Sauron "soul" so to speak.
The point of using it as an example was simply for the fact that the creator was keeping tabs on the creation (people kept tabs on the other rings as well even though no "souls" were contained in them).
If the original creator of the Uber-Sword 2000 is still around there's a good chance they want it back and will therefore get involved with the PCs in come way, shape, or form.

Yes, sometime people do less than advisable things, but a Wizard (who has a higher than average intelligence if he's casting spells higher than 1st level) dedicating his life to flooding the market with useless items is not going to be a very common occurrence in any world I create (unless it's the aforementioned high-magic/comedy setting).

Also, I acknowledge that you cannot force players to have their characters become emotionally attached to items, but you can't really expect it to happen if you never give your items any fluff. Fluff is the important point here. Whether it's the fact that it glows under certain conditions (which may have some practical benefit as well) or the past great owners (or deeds) of the item fluff simply makes items more interesting (just like every other aspect of the game) and when things are interesting then players are more likely to get interested and possibly even attached to them.

I don't care about a +1 short sword, but I do care about the sword that my father used to protect his family against the rampaging kobolds thereby allowing me to come into this world.

[FlyMolo]

Personally, my opinion on magic items is make 'em unique. Like the spoon that turns granite into soup( it was on the boards here a while back.) Now that's cool. I also favor slightly cursed items that are about 10000000x more useful if you can work out how they work. Like a Wand of 2/day finger of death that's activated by singing a certain tune. Love to see the PCs play with that one until they get it right.

Edit: Don't tell them it's a +1 short sword. Just say it looks supernaturally shiny. Give it some obscure effect, like a burst quality, but only if wielded by somebody wearing white gloves. Or something.

But, to answer the OP, magic items get made by high-level wizards to finance epic spell researching. Also, WBL guidelines aren't some arbitrary number generated out of thin air. Presumably wizards make this stuff for a living, going on easy adventures to get some exp so they can make more stuff.

So: Wizards make the stuff. Because researching epic-level spells is EXPENSIVE! Also, making magic items is safer than going out and killing dragons.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I don't care about a +1 short sword, but I do care about the sword that my father used to protect his family against the rampaging kobolds thereby allowing me to come into this world.

And I will care about it a lot less if I'm built to use lances and I need to hock it to afford a +1 valorous one.

[tyckspoon]

I don't care about a +1 short sword, but I do care about the sword that my father used to protect his family against the rampaging kobolds thereby allowing me to come into this world.

If you want the player to keep *using* his father's sword of defending against marauding draconic chihuahuas, however, you have to provide some means for it to become a more useful weapon. No matter how attached the character is to it, if it stays as a plain ol' +1 shortsword while the character levels up he's going to leave it stored in the Handysack and actually fight with something more appropriate to the enemies he faces. Fluffing up the weapons is nice, but it doesn't change the core design expectations of every character somehow acquiring an ever-improving array of gear.

[Arbitrarity]

Now, if only weapons of legacy had decent mechanics

[Rowanomicon]

And I will care about it a lot less if I'm built to use lances and I need to hock it to afford a +1 valorous one.

OK, replace "short sword" with "lance" and don't come back to me saying "what if I built my character to use tridents?"

Heck, I might keep the magical family heirloom sword even if I have neither the training nor the inclination to use it.

Now if I want it to be my main weapon then yes, I do require a certain power level from it (and yes weapons of legacy could have been so much better).

If one assumes that players and DMs are working independently and don't work off each other at all (let alone try to work together) then yeah, you're probably in for a mediocre gaming experience at best.

[Azerian Kelimon]

Actually, magical weapons can be upgraded. Jeeze, seems like the people's DMG-fu has weakened.

[Starsinger]

Actually, magical weapons can be upgraded.

Shh! That's a secret!

[tyckspoon]

Actually, magical weapons can be upgraded. Jeeze, seems like the people's DMG-fu has weakened.

Yeah, I know, but in the context of this discussion.. letting your players take their weapons to some wizard and have them custom enchanted isn't very much different from having the Magic Mart with ten different varieties of magic sword hanging on the wall. It changes the weapon from something unique back to a purchased tool, albeit one the character probably has a little more sentimality about.

[Kaelik]

Yeah, I know, but in the context of this discussion.. letting your players take their weapons to some wizard and have them custom enchanted isn't very much different from having the Magic Mart with ten different varieties of magic sword hanging on the wall. It changes the weapon from something unique back to a purchased tool, albeit one the character probably has a little more sentimality about.

That's the point. Magic items are purchased tools. They aren't sentimental. For balance reasons you have WBL. For that you need several magic items. You have a party of four people. If every one of those items has a backstory then you are looking at 30 independent stories per adventuring group.

But the point is that magic items are tools. That's all. And you pay a Wizard/Cleric/Artificer to make you a tool. Then you use it.

[Xuincherguixe]

Maybe they just appear from out of nothing. Being all creepy like.

Or, it's part of a vast farplane born conspiracy. When the stars are right all the magic items will suddenly turn into horrible monsters that will eat our brains.

And also sell us insurance.

[Leicontis]

What is all this talk that the people capable of crafting high-level weapons and armor wouldn't make them for themselves?

Ever hear of a Cleric? I had a PC Cleric of Tempus (FR CN god of War) who enchanted his (and the rest of the party's) weapons and armor when he got the chance. By end game, the party was nicely equipped, and a lot of this came from the party Cleric.

As a side note:

Yes, sometime people do less than advisable things, but a Wizard (who has a higher than average intelligence if he's casting spells higher than 1st level) dedicating his life to flooding the market with useless items is not going to be a very common occurrence in any world I create (unless it's the aforementioned high-magic/comedy setting).

How about a wizard with a high Int but a low Wis? He could easily percieve a need that wasn't really there, and dedicate considerable effort to fulfilling that need, only to find that nobody actually has such a need. Again, look at a lot of the crazy patents out there.

[horseboy]

How about a wizard with a high Int but a low Wis? He could easily percieve a need that wasn't really there, and dedicate considerable effort to fulfilling that need, only to find that nobody actually has such a need. Again, look at a lot of the crazy patents out there.

To support, even if a player doesn't see it as useful, someone in the world will. After all, look at how much money Cousteau made off of SCUBA, compare that to an Apparatus of Kulwalsh. Shipping companies would pay big for a fan token to keep from being becalmed.

As to the stupidly powerful weapons and armour, I always considered them not made but empowered. Your average 15+ level adventurer is always off battling reality shattering enemies, fighting the gods themselves, hanging out on other planes of existence and all manner of other weird environments. Since weapons last longer than people (Usually) after a while they've absorbed so much "magical radiation" that they've got all kinds of crazy powers. It might start out as a +3 or +4, then grow in power as it passes through more hands and does the same things.

[dyslexicfaser]

How about a wizard with a high Int but a low Wis? He could easily percieve a need that wasn't really there, and dedicate considerable effort to fulfilling that need, only to find that nobody actually has such a need. Again, look at a lot of the crazy patents out there.

Or perhaps those with less int just cannot fathom the point of such items.

Wizard: "What do you mean a spoon that creates non-sustaining gruel is useless? I love the taste of gruel!"

Or maybe some wizards are just crazy.

As to the stupidly powerful weapons and armour, I always considered them not made but empowered. Your average 15+ level adventurer is always off battling reality shattering enemies, fighting the gods themselves, hanging out on other planes of existence and all manner of other weird environments. Since weapons last longer than people (Usually) after a while they've absorbed so much "magical radiation" that they've got all kinds of crazy powers. It might start out as a +3 or +4, then grow in power as it passes through more hands and does the same things.

Now that's a pretty neat idea.

[Rowanomicon]

Interesting idea. That in itself would allow DMs to upgrade players items for them sometimes.

For instance: if the players go to the elemental plane of fire don't let them find a +2 flaming-burst sword to replace their +2 sword simply tell them that through contact with the plane the sword has absorbed the flaming-burst quality.
Or: if the players fight lots of Orcs make their weapon turn into an Orc-bane weapon
This technique will also make your sessions more memorable as every time the power is activated the players will remember the adventure on the elemental plane of fire.
Not to mention that this makes the item more customised to the character's personal experiences which, I think, makes them more likely to become attached to it.

[Kaelik]

Not to mention that this makes the item more customised to the character's personal experiences which, I think, makes them more likely to become attached to it.

Not to mention this means that no one can get the magical effects they want. So they keep selling their +8 equivalent weapons to buy things they actually want like Str enhancers and teleportation boots.

[Sir Giacomo]

Well, that's precisely why I've never used the "magical item market" principle in my campaign worlds.

Well, that explains a lot...

Truth to tell, that's what I also usually prefer.

Magic items in the standard rules with prices given assume there are liquid enough markets for those items, even for the most powerful ones (short of artefacts). This in turn means there are enough casters with creation feats around. Since the items are permanent and rarely get destroyed, already thousands of years of item creation apparently have resulted in the widespread availability of magic items in the standard game.

This can be altered in both directions - either make those items even more common (say, by halving the price to create items and giving item creation feat also to mere craftsmen with high skills). This would result in world where magic leads to some sort of industrial revolution and "modern" world. Quite fantastic, but highly different to DM.
The other direction is the magic-poor campaign where items are more difficult to make. This is what a lot of people prefer to create more "realistic" medieval-like campaigns.
(Of course, both profound changes also have consequences for class balance, but that's for a different thread... )

- Giacomo