Charismatic? Him?

[Hyozo]

Charisma

Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is percieved by others in a social setting.

Okay, first, I'd like to point out that while the first sentence gives a clear list of five traits measured by the last of the six stats, the second sentence flat out negates it, claiming the first on that list is the only one with any effect. Also, let's think about the classes which depend on charisma, these include Sorcerer, Warlock, Binder, Dread Necromancer, and others whose fluff (and often their crunch) clearly go against most of the list, but can (not do, just can) keep to the "strength of personality" statement.

Was the list supposed to be removed. Does the list or the statement take precedence? Why does WotC keep giving charisma dependant classes "nobody likes you." fluff? Will it be worse in 4e (I can hear the (inaudible) posts of "yes" already)?

[Gralamin]

Okay, first, I'd like to point out that while the first sentence gives a clear list of five traits measured by the last of the six stats, the second sentence flat out negates it, claiming the first on that list is the only one with any effect.

Most of the other traits are part of Force of personality, though it is badly worded.

Also, let's think about the classes which depend on charisma, these include Sorcerer, Warlock, Binder, Dread Necromancer, and others whose fluff (and often their crunch) clearly go against most of the list, but can (not do, just can) keep to the "strength of personality" statement.

Was the list supposed to be removed. Does the list or the statement take precedence? Why does WotC keep giving charisma dependant classes "nobody likes you." fluff? Will it be worse in 4e (I can hear the (inaudible) posts of "yes" already)?

Classes that depend on Charisma:
Artificer (Depending on Build), Bard, Binder, Cleric, Crusader, Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, Dread Necromancer, Favored Soul, Hexblade, Knight, Marshal, Paladin, Samurai, Shadowcaster, Shugenja, Sorcerer, Soulborn, Spellthief, Spirit Shaman, Truenamer, Warlock, Warmage, Wilder
Out of those, Binder, Dread Necromancer, Hexblade, Shadowcaster and Warlock jump out as "nobody likes you."
Edit: Forgot Binder.

Don't know about the rest of it.

[horseboy]

Out of those, Dread Necromancer, Hexblade, Shadowcaster and Warlock jump out as "nobody likes you."

Don't know about the rest of it.

And given that DN is all about raising an army of undead, "ability to lead" is an asset.

[Hyozo]

Most of the other traits are part of Force of personality, though it is badly worded.


Classes that depend on Charisma:
Artificer (Depending on Build), Bard, Binder, Cleric, Crusader, Dragon Shaman, Dragonfire Adept, Dread Necromancer, Favored Soul, Hexblade, Knight, Marshal, Paladin, Samurai, Shadowcaster, Shugenja, Sorcerer, Soulborn, Spellthief, Spirit Shaman, Truenamer, Warlock, Warmage, Wilder
Out of those, Binder, Dread Necromancer, Hexblade, Shadowcaster and Warlock jump out as "nobody likes you."
Edit: Forgot Binder.

Don't know about the rest of it.

Sorcerer is fluffed as more of a "most people don't like you" than a "nobody likes you". Also, Truenamer and Samurai fall under the "nobody likes you" category, but not for any fluff reasons. In addition, most of those classes you mentioned aren't as much charisma dependant as they are charisma using, such as paladins or Dragon Shamans (the ones I mentioned are all SAD/DAD). While I admit that I certainly didn't post a full list of charisma dependant classes, just the relevant ones, the fact that about a quarter of the list is relevant helps to prove that WotC really didn't put much thought into the classes' charisma dependance.

[Lemur]

I'm not sure how the second sentence in the original quote negates the first. All it says to me is that your social status doesn't necessarily have a bearing on your charisma score.

In any case, you don't need to be likeable to have a high charisma. Most of the classes you use as examples, like the dread necro, binder, warlock, etc are disliked and mistrusted primarily because people fear them and their power. Being scary is based on charisma, and you can lead, persuade, and even attract people to you by being scary.

[skywalker]

Charisma measures a character's force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is percieved by others in a social setting.

Bold is mine. To me, this implies that force of personality is the main thing measured by the attribute. Not the only thing. They're making sure you understand that it's the most important, they're not trying to exclude or negate the list, nor do I think the list is negated by the second sentence.

[Rift_Wolf]

I always thought of Charisma as Confidence. The charisma-based skills (Perform, Bluff, Intimidate, etc) are about confidence, and it fits with class abilities with the classes such as turning undead or the bards music. Confident people aren't always liked.

[Kurald Galain]

Okay, first, I'd like to point out that while the first sentence gives a clear list of five traits measured by the last of the six stats, the second sentence flat out negates it, claiming the first on that list is the only one with any effect.

Yep. That was added because, unlike most other RPGs, D&D apparently does not deal with a social stat all that well. Indeed, charisma was pretty much entirely useless in earlier editions, except for bard characters and as a prerequisite for becoming a paladin, because the only game effect it had was the seldom-used rule for henchmen.

So because 3E could not call itself "dungeons and dragons" if they changed the six core ability scores, charisma was retconned as some kind of mystical potential, and hence, every single class that has arcane-ish powers that don't come from a lot of studying, uses it.

Likewise, wisdom (in the past, mostly useless except for divine casters) had the perception skills added. Not that perception has anything to do with wisdom per se, but those skills had to go somewhere, no?

[bugsysservant]

Well the problem stems from the fact that WoTC linked charisma with the old "comeliness" score of 2ed. Charisma is primarily confidence and personal power, which attracts many people. Wasn't it Kissinger who said that power is the ultimate aphrodisiac? People who have the highest charisma are frequently the most frightening, but they are also the ones who can make others do their bidding. Emperor Palpatine could hardly be called sexy, but he had loads of Charisma. Likewise the Dread Necro who is steadily turning into a walking grave may be repugnant, but she is also overflowing with personal power and influence.

[Kurald Galain]

Well the problem stems from the fact that WoTC linked charisma with the old "comeliness" score of 2ed.

I'm pretty sure that isn't 2nd ed. Wasn't it unearthed arcana or some similer 1E expansion?

I'm not so sure that "join me or I'll kill you" qualifies as high charisma - and the Dread Necro may be powerful, but is hardly an aphrodisiac to anyone other than Tsuki The best example of a charismatic villain I can think of is actually Melkor.

[Mewtarthio]

I'm not so sure that "join me or I'll kill you" qualifies as high charisma - and the Dread Necro may be powerful, but is hardly an aphrodisiac to anyone other than Tsuki

Charisma is more like how people notice you and do what you want. A Tarrasque and a Dread Necromancer who has become a Lich are both CR 20. If the Tarrasque could speak, however, nobody would listen. They'd simply do whatever they could do to avoid getting killed. If a Dread Necromancer Lich King speaks, people obey, because he instills in them a fear that they cannot overcome.

Think about it this way: The Talking Tarrasque and the Lich King both send some poor shmuck on a quest to find the Profane MacGuffin. The TT's guy agrees to go to avoid being killed, and spends the entire quest planning out how he's going to keep TT from getting the MacGuffin while at the same time avoiding a fate as a tasty snack. The LK's guy is thoroughly broken, concentrates on his task single-mindedly, probably starts a cult that worships LK, and does nothing but babble incoherently about the incarnation of death and the end of days when questioned.

[LibraryOgre]

1st: Comeliness was 1st edition. 2.5 edition (Skills and Powers) introduced "Subabilities", where you could split your stats into their component parts, allowing the break between Appearance and Leadership in Charisma, but I personally always hated that.

2nd: The henchmen rules were very popular and often used in 1st edition, especially; most adventures assumed you would have a number of henchmen and hirelings along to help absorb the damage. When you look at old adventures and see the ton of magic items, don't think of them as Monty Haul... realize that many of these would be given to henchmen to make them more effective (and loyal... nothing says "I'm with you, boss" like a magic sword as a hiring bonus).

3rd: 2nd edition, especially, used wisdom extensively for intuition and sense-based NWPs.

[bugsysservant]

I'm pretty sure that isn't 2nd ed. Wasn't it unearthed arcana or some similer 1E expansion?

I'm not so sure that "join me or I'll kill you" qualifies as high charisma - and the Dread Necro may be powerful, but is hardly an aphrodisiac to anyone other than Tsuki The best example of a charismatic villain I can think of is actually Melkor.

Really? Huh, guess that was a 2ed house rule (surprise, surprise)

And as for Melkor, he never really struck me as that charismatic. Look at his conduct when Fingolfin challenges him, and tell me he has great internal power and confidence. Now Sauron, there is a confident villain. His manipulation of the Numenoreans pretty much speaks for itself in terms of charisma.

[mockingbyrd7]

Trying to think of how to put this...

Charisma is a mixture of:

Physical beauty and desirability (self explanatory)
A desirable personality ("desirable" referring to relationships and attraction, specifically)
Force of personality (stage presence, leadership, persuasion)
Performance talent? (this one is iffy; people LOVE a singer or an actor, but this might be considered force of personality)


Example: A comedian with a great personality who is beloved by thousands for his sense of humor, but is not very physically attractive (maybe even as part of his look) would have a high but not super-high charisma (as in, 16 or so).

Or, a gorgeous girl who was vapid and lifeless personality-wise would have perhaps an above-average charisma, maybe 12 to 14.

Just my interpretation, I don't know what was intended by the original rules.

[Nowhere Girl]

Perfect example of a real-life person who had lots of charisma.

Always liked? No, not necessarily. But a master of "aggressive negotiation," yes indeedy.

[Sebastian]

Note that strength of personality and Charisma doesn't mean necessarily that people like you (it could but don't have to) it means that when you talk, people listen.

And to complicate things remember that person that are believed to have high charisma could be represented by an high Diplomacy, or even ranks in Perform (that IIRC can be used in place of diplomacy in some case)

[The Extinguisher]

I don't see how "not merely" negates the first sentence.

It's more of a helpful reminder that it isn't just "how one is percieved by others in a social setting."

[Emperor Demonking]

Yeah charisma is do they remember or listen to you. The things are just factors that affect you.

[Cuddly]

I've always thought someone who must have bushloads of charisma would be the guy who trains dog in a day on that one show about training misbehaving dogs in a day. He just walks into a room and the dogs sit down and shut up.



Of course, that could be skill focus: handle animal, animal empathy, and 4 ranks in handle animal. With 12 charisma, that'd be a +10.

[Kurald Galain]

Of course, that could be skill focus: handle animal, animal empathy, and 4 ranks in handle animal. With 12 charisma, that'd be a +10.

Unfortunately, it's not actually possible to learn animal empathy unless you practice hard at tracking and two-weapon fighting

[Brom]

I've always thought someone who must have bushloads of charisma would be the guy who trains dog in a day on that one show about training misbehaving dogs in a day. He just walks into a room and the dogs sit down and shut up.



Of course, that could be skill focus: handle animal, animal empathy, and 4 ranks in handle animal. With 12 charisma, that'd be a +10.

The guys name is Ceaser Milan. I can do some of that with my voice. When I use my voice a certain way and look in the dogs direction but not at the dog, it listens. I can make cats come to me, too, by looking at me.

Then again, I swordfight and do have two weapon fighting experiance XD

I have Charisma based on four things. You can have one of the things but lack noticably in the others, but still be charasmatic:

1) Great physical appearance, one that makes people think/sends a message. This doesn't even have to necessarily be 'sexy' simply knowing what clothes to wear or having certain items in certain places. Anything you've done to change your appearance that makes others think is an act of a charasmatic personage.
2) Strong Vibe: This is what people like Ceaser Milan have. Ceaser, totally unassuming. He looks like a short, dumply looking Mexican guy. Yet he's SOLID; he just kind of radiates. I think this is the hardest to clarify. Solid people can make others shut up by walking in the room, although they can have this and have it be mistaken for a Great Physical Appearance. Often a person can't say he has a strong vibe unless he can get the same effects as a person with a Great Physical Appearance while not actually having one.
3) Interaction: A Charasmatic person can respond and move in correlation to people in ways that are evocative. This includes, but of course is not limited to: Eye contact, solid handshakes, squaring ones shoulders, waving when someone looks at you, etc.
4) Speech: Choosing what words you say, and far more importantly, TONING them. Choosing the right vowels and syllabels to elongate, etc, will have this effect. People who can do this hit just the right octave when they make a demand, or have a steady, solid tone that can enthrall others.

[Cuddly]

The guys name is Ceaser Milan. I can do some of that with my voice. When I use my voice a certain way and look in the dogs direction but not at the dog, it listens. I can make cats come to me, too, by looking at me.

But he can send the dogs to other rooms, stand in the corner, practically anything he wants, just by being there. It's pretty freakin' incredible. Animals usually just flee from me .

[Talya]

Someone once explained that the mental abilities are all analogs of the physical ones, and suddenly Charisma made sense to me.

Intelligence = Mental Dexterity. It represents your ability to skillfully manipulate information, it's mental finesse.

Wisdom = Mental Constitution. Wisdom is your ability to withstand assaults on your mind, it's toughness.

Charisma = Mental Strength. Charisma is not finesse, it's force -- "force of personality." Through Charisma, one can bend the mystical elements of the universe to your will by your will alone, through charisma you can make people like you or fear you, simply by the sheer force of your personality.