MitD 007: GoldenEyes (Please Read the First Post)

[Hecuba]

Neither teleport nor greater teleport have that limitation.

The wizard did manage to carry far more people than one would expect (it is seriously unlikely he was the level 18 required to teleport 6 people at once, but then, he might have done it in two trips, and Rich just saved space by showing it as one).

Grey Wolf

They could simply have a modified caster level (from feat, PRC, items, or what have you).
Or they have taken a level or 3 in Wayfarer Guide.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They could simply have a modified caster level (from feat, PRC, items, or what have you).
Or they have taken a level or 3 in Wayfarer Guide.

Oh, nice. Thanks!

GW

[DaggerPen]

This is what feels just completely off. MitD being aware of what other people can do? He can't even say what he himself can do! Not to mention that if the darkness isn't blocking his vision, I don't understand how he would even be aware he was standing in the middle of it. To MitD, other people do sweird things for no apparent reason. Internalising that RC can't see through his, and I'm struggling for words here, "patch of dense air" that is perfectly transparent to him would be chalked to RC being strange, not to "oh, he cannot see through the patch of dense air, but I can". How would he even know the meaning of the word "dark", anyway? Have you ever tried to explain colours to a blind man? This would be the same thing.

He knows that the whole point of Xykon keeping him in the dark is for people not to be able to see him, though. And it seems like he knows that being in the darkness = no warm lovely sunbeams on his skin.

I'm not saying he definitely can see through the magical darkness. I just think that being able to see through magical darkness shouldn't be a "con" for any candidates who can, because there's a plausible explanation for either scenario. Like how the paper cut on his tongue might mean that his armor is external, or that it counted as an epic weapon for the purposes of his DR because he was wielding it, but also might just be rule of funny.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He knows that the whole point of Xykon keeping him in the dark is for people not to be able to see him, though.

Not disputing that - and not sure how that would suggest he himself can see through them, given how much he whines about them. The alternative explanation that he wants to feel the sun on his skin flies in the face of the evidence that he wants out even in the deep of the dungeon.

Bottom line, I can't see his excuse making it past Xykon's and RC's sarcasm. If MitD had claimed that he couldn't see the gate because of the darkness, when RC, Xykon (and MitD) all knew he could, one of those two would have said something, just like they did when he asked to carry the phylactery, or indeed when he attempted to help with the undead (also present, although not quite as equivalent, when RC complained about MitD being able to escape without help).(I think there was another example too, but seems to have slipped my mind).

This argument works at two levels. In character, it doesn't fit that RC and Xykon would let pass the occasion to snark at MitD. At literary level, I can't see Rich missing the opportunity to use the phrase "you can see through magical darkness, you dolt!" if that were the case.

Grey Wolf

[DaggerPen]

Not disputing that - and not sure how that would suggest he himself can see through them, given how much he whines about them. The absurd alternative explanation that he wants to feel the sun on his skin flies in the face of the evidence that he wants out even in the deep of the dungeon.

In fairness, the jokes about him wanting out of the darkness were established before Rich knew what the MitD was. Stuff from before that doesn't contradict what MitD is, but I doubt Rich went and thought "This creature can see through magical darkness, so it wouldn't even know what darkness is" for the purposes of his gags, especially since this was just when the plot was starting to fill in.

Heck, dark vision in this strip is typically portrayed in black and white. Darkness might still look different to the MitD without hampering his vision.

Bottom line, I can't see his excuse making it past Xykon's and RC's sarcasm. If MitD had claimed that he couldn't see the gate because of the darkness, when RC, Xykon (and MitD) all knew he could, one of those two would have said something, just like they did when he asked to carry the phylactery, or indeed when he attempted to help with the undead (also present, although not quite as equivalent, when RC complained about MitD being able to escape without help).(I think there was another example too, but seems to have slipped my mind).

This argument works at two levels. In character, it doesn't fit that RC and Xykon would let pass the occasion to snark at MitD. At literary level, I can't see Rich missing the opportunity to use the phrase "you can see through magical darkness, you dolt!" if that were the case.

Grey Wolf

Yeah, but they also weren't really paying attention to him. MitD does a lot of - sotto voce, I guess? - lines that the others don't really react to for the purposes of cheap gags.

I just think that "rule of funny" is a plausible enough explanation for "Why did MitD mumble about the darkness in a strip where his creature type may or may not have been decided on?" when it comes to a candidate being able to see through magical darkness. If we had a candidate who was otherwise a good fit, I wouldn't even blink at it, and if we had a candidate who wasn't a good fit, it wouldn't even occur to me to use that as a "con" in the list of arguments.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In fairness, the jokes about him wanting out of the darkness were established before Rich knew what the MitD was. Stuff from before that doesn't contradict what MitD is, but I doubt Rich went and thought "This creature can see through magical darkness, so it wouldn't even know what darkness is" for the purposes of his gags, especially since this was just when the plot was starting to fill in.

But those jokes would contradict what MitD is. Around strip 100, when Rich sat down to figure out the plot (which probably happen around 95, come to think of it, when Xykon explained the master plan), he needed a creature that would fit what little he had used until then. I.e. he needed a creature that would be uncomfortable in the darkness. He also needed one capable of getting V out of trouble when V tried "Magic is Might" approach, and one that was a challenge to the Order. I don't think he had many constraints beyond that. I can't picture Rich picking a creature used to living in complete darkness that sees through even magical darkness as the poor bastard trapped in the shadows, not when he had a near-infinite number of choices before him.

If we had a candidate who was otherwise a good fit, I wouldn't even blink at it, and if we had a candidate who wasn't a good fit, it wouldn't even occur to me to use that as a "con" in the list of arguments.

Well, it would to me. Sorry. The evidence, sketchy as it is, points to the fact that he can't see though magical darkness. I'm not suggesting adding it to the FBS list, but it's there.
Edit: I suppose I feel about it like I feel about eye colour. The creature has to be a very good fit before I even take it into account, but if the creature is explicitly described as having red eyes, even though it is a minor point, it is a con.

As to rule of funny, what can I say, I don't see what is so funny about a joke that requires you to know MitD can see through the darkness to really get it. No reader will see MitD complaining about not seeing the gates due to darkness and think "ho, ho, ho, great joke, since he can in fact see through magical darkness, because I know it is a <whatever>". It just doesn't work, not even as a brick joke.

Grey Wolf

[allenw]

By RAW, if you stand on the edge of magical darkness, you can see out of it, but no-one can see you.

Citation?

I'm not trying to be snarky; I actually looked for a rule for this circumstance, and didn't find it. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm implies that you can see out of "shadowy illumination," but: "In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded."

Unfortunately, just to confuse things, the Darkness spell and its relatives were significantly changed from 3.0 to 3.5. In 3.0, they all created areas of actual pitch-blackness; in 3.5, they all create "shadowy illumination." But, it doesn't look like MitD is just shadowy-illuminated; and the Young Adult Black Dragon (which has "Darkness" as a spell-like ability) definitely creates an area of pitch-blackness. So, it appears that in OotS, that particular 3.5 change (which many DMs disliked) was houseruled away.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Citation?

I'll try to find one for you, but since it has never been challenged before, it might take me a while. My own knowledge of it comes from the only 3.5 game I ever played, years ago, so allow me some time. I believe that the reason why is that line of sight is measured from the corner of the square, and that corner is by definition the end of the darkness - but as I say, this is based on my own recollection.

Grey Wolf

[ChristianSt]

To add my opinion:

I don't think we that can say for sure whether MitD can see through darkness or not. There are possible benefits and drawbacks to both options, and I don't think we can solve this without having more information.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

To add my opinion:

I don't think we that can say for sure whether MitD can see through darkness or not. There are possible benefits and drawbacks to both options, and I don't think we can solve this without having more information.

Once more, I am not asking for opinions, I'm asking for counters to my arguments. Why would he complain about not being able to see, if he can? How, if he can see, would he know he could complain? Why would he think the darkness is dark if he can see while in it? Why are you all so convinced that he was lying? If you claim Rule of Funny, why would Rich do a joke about MitD that depends on you knowing a characteristic of his species that has not been mentioned?

I've been through this dance before. No amount of people absolutely convinced that MitD is Tarrasque modified the evidence, and no amount of people claiming that the evidence doesn't lean to "he can't see through magical darkness" helps either. This thread can't run on popular opinion outside of how to structure the first post.

----------------

Found it: Concealment: "To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment. "

If your square is at the edge of magical darkness, the corner is the starting point for the line of sight. The rule then says that it has to pass a a square or border that gives concealment, which if you start from the corner and move away from the square, you won't do (unless you move sideways into the adjacent square also in darkness, which would count as "passing through a border").

If you are trying to reach a creature that is in a square in darkness, though, you have to pass its border, which grants concealment.

Grey Wolf

[rweird]

The MitD wanted the lantern archons to shoot him so he could see what he looked like because he can't see into the darkness (which I think is pretty conclusive, though the light rays wouldn't illuminate the magical darkness anyways). Him seeing out is kind of a problem, though I think that Grey Wolf is right about the corners of a square part (thats the normal rule for line of sight).

EDIT: Yes, he did find it. Perhaps we should add a summarized version of that argument about seeing through darkness to the Darkness section of 2c.

I don't think we should discount things that can see in magical darkness because they can see in magical darkness, sure it'd be a Con, though other creatures have had bigger Cons.

***

Correction to the Aboleth Mage entry: "Effective caster level 16th would allow him to have greater teleport"

This is misleading and incorrect. The caster level 16 for for the Aboleth's psi-like abilities.

Psionics (Sp)
At will—hypnotic pattern (DC 15), illusory wall (DC 17), mirage arcana (DC 18), persistent image (DC 18), programmed image (DC 19), project image (DC 20), veil (DC 19). Effective caster level 16th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

The Aboleth Mage has 10 levels in Wizard. Greater Teleport is a 7th level spell, requiring 13.

It only could have normal teleport, though it would have to cast it, and lacking silent spell (and not having a 6th level spell slot to prepare it it), would have to say "Teleport" to transport them.

Personally I think that with the Aboleth already not having the requisite strength, should be removed from the FBS for inadequate strength, no real defense against Milko's attacks (AC 18, no DR or anything) [fails both accounts for Tower Scene), and needing to actually say "Teleport" (though teleport isn't a very good explanation of the escape itself) (Escape). I agree it almost fits some things, but it doesn't.

[allenw]

On an unrelated note: For me, the "Earthquake" scene has always been harder to match than the "Escape" scene.
"Escape" is nicely covered by "Wish" (a surprisingly-common-for-it's-power ability) and it's variants, or can be covered with some stretching by various flavors of "Teleport".
"Earthquake" is a really uncommon ability, and nothing I've found that has it (e.g., a Planetar) makes any sense as MitD. True, "Wish" could duplicate it, but stomping on the ground to activate "Wish" seems odd to me. Though both the stomp and the "Escape" do make MitD really tired, so they probably come from the same kind of source (psionics?).

I know the half-Earth-Elemental template has been proposed. That would supply "Earthquake" as a spell-like ability; but it would also give lots of other abilities that we've seen no sign of (I don't think "Plane Shift" explains the "Escape" at all), plus a generally "stony" nature that hasn't been mentioned (see this PDF, p. 2).

The only other explanation for the Earthquake that I've seen is that the MitD is Just That Strong. Considering his encounter with Miko, this is a real possibility. I have two observations on that:

1: When MitD hits Miko lightly (and Windstrider), it doesn't seem to tire him out at all. But his tentative, lower-case "stomp" does.

2: Given the effects he creates with (literally) minimal effort, if MitD *is* Just That Strong, then his strength is literally legendary. We're talking angry-Hulk, Silver-Age-Superman, "Strongest One There Is" strong. Knocking Miko through a wall? Could be Rule of Funny. Also creating a literal Earthquake with a light stomp? If it's all done with physical Strength, then it seems to me that MitD needs to be the physically strongest thing in whatever environment he comes from (or in a class of such things, e.g. Kryptonians. Unfortunately, Krypton never seems to have invented teleportation).
Does anyone have suggestions for D&D creatures that are legendarily strong? All I can think of are 1st-Edition-AD&D-Thor-with-his-magic-gauntlets, and perhaps Hercules (both from the 1st-edition Deities and Demigods, and neither a good candidate).

All of which is why I think that, *if* MitD is actually a D&D creature, he is very likely to have either an actual Earthquake ability, or something like Wish (and not just "grant a Wish to another being," since that wouldn't explain the Earthquake). If Wish-not-Earthquake, then he would have to be able to use it frequently enough to explain both the Earthquake and the Escape. We know that several months passed between the Earthquake (during the fall of Azure City) and the Escape (shortly before Sandsedge); but could a year have passed (to allow for creatures, such as the Pit Fiend, with once-a-year Wishes)?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't think we should discount things that can see in magical darkness because they can see in magical darkness, sure it'd be a Con, though other creatures have had bigger Cons.

This is precisely my position, except for the part about discarding. As curator of this thread, I don't discard anything that has been minimally defended (i.e. more than a name): I listed centaurs, for Thor's sake!

Also, please don't misunderstand my position in the argument as some die-hard knee-jerk dislike of creatures that can see through magical darkness. As I explained recently, I am here to sharpen arguments. "Can't see through magical darkness" has weak and circumstantial evidence in its corner, but it is evidence nonetheless. The opposite hypothesis has nothing in its corner that I can buy. Thus, between the two of them, I have to follow the first, argumentatively speaking.

This is misleading and incorrect. The caster level 16 for for the Aboleth's psi-like abilities.

I'll take your word for it, and update it come next refresh (got a bit lost in your explanation, sorry).

It only could have normal teleport, though it would have to cast it, and lacking silent spell (and not having a 6th level spell slot to prepare it it), would have to say "Teleport" to transport them.

We have had spells cast without saying their name (and without having "silent slay living" sounds effects) before, though. Xykon's mind control, for example. Rule of Drama could be in effect: it is more dramatic if he shouts "Escape" than if he shouts "teleport".

Personally I think that with the Aboleth already not having the requisite strength, should be removed from the FBS for inadequate strength, no real defense against Milko's attacks (AC 18, no DR or anything) [fails both accounts for Tower Scene), and needing to actually say "Teleport" (though teleport isn't a very good explanation of the escape itself) (Escape). I agree it almost fits some things, but it doesn't.

Yes, it is on the list to get moved to the general proposal list come the refresh, not to worry. Hopefully we won't thin out the FBS too much...

Edit:

On an unrelated note: For me, the "Earthquake" scene has always been harder to match than the "Escape" scene.

Yep. It is. The reason why the tower is in the FBS and not the earthquake is because nothing ever proposed fits the earthquake*. If we want to have an FBS list, we need to use "Just That Strong" (in which case, the tower is a better showcase of it). That said, I find that the protean's 50+ strength would be Superman-level strength, so he could do it.

Grey Wolf

*that is, except standalone "this proposal fits the earthquake, and not much else" proposals

[ChristianSt]

To add my opinion:

I don't think we that can say for sure whether MitD can see through darkness or not. There are possible benefits and drawbacks to both options, and I don't think we can solve this without having more information.

I should perhaps stop posting from my smartphone (It just isn't great for opening multiple tabs, and so my "research" isn't that great).

In Short: I somehow missed to look at 97 with : "It's not my fault I can't see anything in all this darkness..." - the other comics I looked at didn't feature a clear-cut line.

So with that being said: Yeah, seeing in darkness is a drawback for any candidate.

[allenw]

Found it: Concealment: "To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment. "

If your square is at the edge of magical darkness, the corner is the starting point for the line of sight. The rule then says that it has to pass a a square or border that gives concealment, which if you start from the corner and move away from the square, you won't do (unless you move sideways into the adjacent square also in darkness, which would count as "passing through a border").

If you are trying to reach a creature that is in a square in darkness, though, you have to pass its border, which grants concealment.

Grey Wolf

Good find! And since you can choose which corner of *your* square to draw a line from, but have to draw one to every corner of your target's square, then even if only the target's square is in darkness, they still get Concealment.

That said, I find that the protean's 50+ strength would be Superman-level strength, so he could do it.

I just re-read the Protean's entry; my, that's nasty. Okay, *maybe* 50+ strength plus Rule of Funny would do it. But that still doesn't explain why a minimal effort tires out MitD for the Earthquake, but not for Miko in the Tower.
It also seems that the Protean only gets to copy "extraordinary abilities," not magical ones (except incorporeality), so explaining the Escape is still hard (unless it gets re-written to use other Psionic abilities).

[rweird]

This is precisely my position, except for the part about discarding. As curator of this thread, I don't discard anything that has been minimally defended (i.e. more than a name): I listed centaurs, for Thor's sake!

I thought as much, I wanted to clarify my position about not discarding things for clarity. I didn't really direct that comment at you, but in general.

Also, please don't misunderstand my position in the argument as some die-hard knee-jerk dislike of creatures that can see through magical darkness. As I explained recently, I am here to sharpen arguments. "Can't see through magical darkness" has weak and circumstantial evidence in its corner, but it is evidence nonetheless. The opposite hypothesis has nothing in its corner that I can buy. Thus, between the two of them, I have to follow the first, argumentatively speaking.

I think I understand your position. I meant "The MitD doesn't need to see through magical darkness. In D&D, rules of line of sight allow him to see out from the edge without being able to see through it." (link to the rule included) added to the Darkness. Not "MitD needs to/cannot see through magical darkness." Sorry for not making that clear.

I'll take your word for it, and update it come next refresh (got a bit lost in your explanation, sorry).

Pretty much, the Aboleth has a caster level of 16 for Psi-like abilities. This is separate than the 10 levels of wizard the Aboleth mage has. For wizard casting it would only have a Caster Level of 10, and being a 10th level wizard, would only have access to 5th level spells (like Teleport, but not greater). My problem is it roughly saying "has a caster level of 16, therefore it can have greater teleport" to explain the escape.

We have had spells cast without saying their name (and without having "silent slay living" sounds effects) before, though. Xykon's mind control, for example. Rule of Drama could be in effect: it is more dramatic if he shouts "Escape" than if he shouts "teleport".

Yeah, that is a possibility, though it also lacks any of the other common signs of casting. I still would understand, though I feel it is a rather weak explanation, especially because the listed version did not have Teleport as a spell prepared. Using teleport/greater is weak as is, considering the MitD didn't know where he sent O-Chul, and would need to have a destination in mind to teleport them.

Pretty much, it seems to require too much leeway, having that a spell known, happening to prepare it years and years ago, a mishap bringing them exactly were they need to go from blind luck, and him not saying "teleport" all combined.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Pretty much, the Aboleth has a caster level of 16 for Psi-like abilities.

And none of the listed Psi-like abilities explain the escape, gotcha.

Went to the aboleth's sheet, and finally remembered this one. It is a weird combination of regular monster with completely open to interpretation spell list. Weirdly, teleport is a better explanation for the escape than Greate Teleport, so that doesn't hurt it too much, but I agree that with the tightening of the FBS list, the aboleth, as much as I like the "tastes the memories of what he eats" detail, will have to go.

Using teleport/greater is weak as is, considering the MitD didn't know where he sent O-Chul, and would need to have a destination in mind to teleport them.

(To remind everyone, with regular teleport, if the destination doesn't exist, you have a chance at arriving at "someplace similar". If MitD concentrated on getting O-Chul to his friends, a plot-induced roll in the mishap table would cause him to end in the right place, even if MitD didn't know where that is.)

having that a spell known

Yeah, spell preparation is really a big issue. If MitD is any kind of caster, it has to be spontaneous.

Edit: I keep missing allenw's posts

It also seems that the Protean only gets to copy "extraordinary abilities," not magical ones (except incorporeality), so explaining the Escape is still hard (unless it gets re-written to use other Psionic abilities).

All it takes is one creature that has teleport as an extraordinary ability. Which is where the umbral blot steps in: the planar travel extraordinary ability includes greater teleport.

Grey Wolf

[Crusher]

Yeah, spell preparation is really a big issue. If MitD is any kind of caster, it has to be spontaneous.

Grey Wolf

Not quite completely true. Imo, the most likely explanation (I mean, mostly likely in this particular case, not most likely explanation for the Escape scene overall) is that MitD has levels in the appropriate class and prepared Teleport (or Wish or whatever) at some previous prior point, and then came down with some form of long-term amnesia making him forget not just the spells he prepared but also the fact that he had those levels at all. Then when the Escape scene rolls around, he suddenly realizes he can cast the appropriate spell and does so.

On the one hand, while I think this is the most likely explanation, it is still wildly unlikely. On the other hand, its really no more wildly unlikely than a Protean momentarily transforming itself into an Umbral Blot at the right moment to do the teleport.

Additionally, its kind of a neat answer for why the MitD seems to think he can make various things happen sometimes simply by wishing for them to happen (not literally meaning wish spells, in this case). Perhaps he was once a powerful spellcaster of some sort and has a whole long list of prepared spells he's forgotten about. Every once in a while he's able to cast one of those spells and something nifty happens but its not at all reliable (because the spell is gone, unless it happens to be something he'd prepared more than once) and he can't really explain it happening.

For being a pretty bad answer I like it more than I expected to.

Edit - Lots of little edits for clarity.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not quite completely true. Imo, the most likely explanation (I mean, mostly likely in this particular case, not most likely explanation for the Escape scene overall) is that MitD has levels in the appropriate class and prepared Teleport (or Wish or whatever) at some previous prior point, and then came down with some form of long-term amnesia making him forget not just the spells he prepared but also the fact that he had those levels at all.

True enough, but I'd be more likely to buy into this explanation if Amnesia wasn't such a overused cliche at this point. Like templates, I would like some kind of positive evidence before throwing my hat in its corner.

GW

[DaggerPen]

All it takes is one creature that has teleport as an extraordinary ability. Which is where the umbral blot steps in: the planar travel extraordinary ability includes greater teleport.

Grey Wolf

Speaking of extraordinary abilities, is there one that could explain the earthquake? Though the convenient shapeshift for that, even if MitD did that one before, is still pushing it.

[Throknor]

Good find! And since you can choose which corner of *your* square to draw a line from, but have to draw one to every corner of your target's square, then even if only the target's square is in darkness, they still get Concealment.

Part of me wonders if there's some kind of misunderstanding here. Per the rules, anything in exactly one square of darkness sees out of it - however it is logically, whether by going to the extreme edge or by 'magic'. But it is a different issue to look down and see one's own feet, for example.

So after following the back and forth where I'm at is that the MITD is in darkness such that he can see anything outside the darkness but not himself. We see his eyes for artistic purposes, but the other characters don't necessarily see them. They know something is there mainly by it speaking* and some of its interactions. Using the flashlight and wanting to get hit by the archons' light both can indicate he is aware of this and is tired of it. His use of it as an excuse for not seeing the first gate could just be that - an excuse.

* I partly want to point out here that Miko didn't notice MITD until he spoke, but that could be a Spot issue and don't want to cloud the issue. I can't think of any other instances where he was without the umbrella (or box) and started talking without being noticed first.

[Savannah]

1: When MitD hits Miko lightly (and Windstrider), it doesn't seem to tire him out at all. But his tentative, lower-case "stomp" does.

Huh. I had not noticed that before, and I think it's a really interesting point. I don't really have anything to add, but I wanted to say thanks for bringing it to my attention.

[Kittenwolf]

Once more, I am not asking for opinions, I'm asking for counters to my arguments. Why would he complain about not being able to see, if he can? How, if he can see, would he know he could complain? Why would he think the darkness is dark if he can see while in it? Why are you all so convinced that he was lying? If you claim Rule of Funny, why would Rich do a joke about MitD that depends on you knowing a characteristic of his species that has not been mentioned?

GW, I just want to confirm something here since I'm coming into the conversation a tad late, but are you saying that if a creature can see through darkness/magical darkness, they can't distinguish darkness from light? Or am I misreading things?

Huh. I had not noticed that before, and I think it's a really interesting point. I don't really have anything to add, but I wanted to say thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Personally I'd read that as an "Earthquake X times per day" ability, and MitD has just used up his use(s).

[Crusher]

GW, I just want to confirm something here since I'm coming into the conversation a tad late, but are you saying that if a creature can see through darkness/magical darkness, they can't distinguish darkness from light? Or am I misreading things?




Personally I'd read that as an "Earthquake X times per day" ability, and MitD has just used up his use(s).

That could indeed be the case. The problem is that Earthquake is a really rare ability for monsters to have, particularly non-Elementals. Any suggestions?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

GW, I just want to confirm something here since I'm coming into the conversation a tad late, but are you saying that if a creature can see through darkness/magical darkness, they can't distinguish darkness from light? Or am I misreading things?

No, I did not say that. A creature that can see through what you (human, I presume) calls darkness wouldn't call what you (can't) see "darkness". There are other things that will block his vision, that he might call darkness, but the patches of absence of light that you would call darkness are invisible to him - see my example about a snake/you surrounded by CO2. If you were surrounded by a thick layer of CO2, other than breathing issues, you would have no problem seeing through it. You are standing in the light. But to a (hypothetical heat-vision only) snake, you are completely surrounded by impenetrable darkness. You can still tell darkness from light, but the definition is in the eye of the beholder, because "darkness" just means that whatever process you use to see the world around you is not working. Notice that other than the lack of breathing, you would not even be able to tell you were surrounded by CO2.

Edit: For your viewing pleasure, the exact situation I am talking about.

Are there things that can block the vision of a creature that can see through magical darkness? No idea, but if they are, that creature will have a concept of darkness, which he can distinguish from light - but magical darkness will never be it, since it is not blocking his vision.

Grey Wolf

[Kittenwolf]

No, I did not say that. A creature that can see through what you (human, I presume) calls darkness wouldn't call what you (can't) see "darkness". There are other things that will block his vision, that he might call darkness, but the patches of absence of light that you would call darkness are invisible to him - see my example about a snake/you surrounded by CO2. If you were surrounded by a thick layer of CO2, other than breathing issues, you would have no problem seeing through it. You are standing in the light. But to a (hypothetical heat-vision only) snake, you are completely surrounded by impenetrable darkness. You can still tell darkness from light, but the definition is in the eye of the beholder, because "darkness" just means that whatever process you use to see the world around you is not working. Notice that other than the lack of breathing, you would not even be able to tell you were surrounded by CO2.

Edit: For your viewing pleasure, the exact situation I am talking about.

Are there things that can block the vision of a creature that can see through magical darkness? No idea, but if they are, that creature will have a concept of darkness, which he can distinguish from light - but magical darkness will never be it, since it is not blocking his vision.

Grey Wolf

I'd disagree with that actually. "Darkness" is (by definition) "Absense of light" not "the thing that blocks me from seeing".
I can see through red/blue/green light just like I can see through white light, but it certainly changes *how* I see in that area.

Plus, RAW states that Darkness in D&D *does* affect creatures with Darkvision, ie, they can only see 60/90/120ft rather than "Until something gets in the way" like normal vision, and Darkvision is black and white only.

Darkness, magical darkness etc is always, at the bare minimum, going to be "That area where my vision goes black and white and goes away after a short distance"

That could indeed be the case. The problem is that Earthquake is a really rare ability for monsters to have, particularly non-Elementals. Any suggestions?

Unfortunately not at this point. Plus it also gets muddled when you start to consider it being an Earthquake Spell from Sorcerer levels, or an ability that lets them mimic spells of others, or various other things. I'll do some thinking though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd disagree with that actually. "Darkness" is (by definition) "Absense of light" not "the thing that blocks me from seeing".

In this context, those are one and the same. A creature that can see through darkness detects, for the sake of the example, the thaum particles reflected off the environment into the creature's eyes. Thus, if you only can see regular photons, and there are no photons bouncing around in a room, you would say "it is dark", but a creature that can see thaums, if the room is full of them, will not say the room is dark.

The darkness spell blocks photons and thaums both, so it fits the definition of "that which blocks my ability to see". It is not just absence of light, it is an active enchantment that blocks light.

I can see through red/blue/green light just like I can see through white light, but it certainly changes *how* I see in that area.

And yet if I block blue light, you don't call the resulting yellowish environment dark. You call it yellowish.

Plus, RAW states that Darkness in D&D *does* affect creatures with Darkvision, ie, they can only see 60/90/120ft rather than "Until something gets in the way" like normal vision, and Darkvision is black and white only.

Darkness, magical darkness etc is always, at the bare minimum, going to be "That area where my vision goes black and white and goes away after a short distance"

No. For one thing, we are talking about creatures that can see through magical darkness, so you talking about creatures that can see only through non-magical darkness ("darkvision") is irrelevant. For another, you conflate regular darkness and magical darkness. Since magical darkness blocks darkvision, you cannot do that. Third, unless you tie this to MitD, I am done talking about it. I've gone through this exact conversation three times now and, frankly, I'm sick of it.

Grey Wolf

[Steven]

Just to clarify: A creature having the ability to see through magical darkness would, based on the current evidence we have, cause Greywolf to want it listed as a con. If the creature was a good fit in every other way, which a pit fiend is not, it would be added to the general list and if it could do the things required by the big 3 then it would get into the FBS list.

Most of the arguments people have with Greywolf are NOT about things that would bar a creature getting on the list. They are about thoroughly examining the given issue to make sure it's been covered from every side. Issues arise when people insist that their particular idea is somehow special and should not be examined to the same level as everything else that is submitted.

Once again noone is saying that a creature who can see through magical darkness like a devil does would be dropped on that alone but it IS a con because the ONLY evidence we have in the comic, weak though it is, suggests that the MitD cannot see through it.

(Hopefully I've not gotten Greywolf's position wrong but this is what I get from what he's said and if I've got it wrong let me know and I'll make a note of it in this post.)

[Belfex]

Hello all! Long time reader (started when comic was at #37), first time poster. I lurked a LOOOOONG time.

I have read through several iterations of this thread, and I have come up with a theory about MiTD that appears never to have been posted and I can't get out of my head. I appreciate any and all debunking.

Hivemind (BoVD) fine insect swarm (roaches in my head, but others possible).

Pros for:

Hivemind creature would gain astronomically high Intelligence and Charisma (around 200 for both stats), but would have -Belkarishly- low wisdom and thus able to be dominated.

A Hivemind creature would easily have 20 levels of sorcerer, allowing for Wish. (It could, per the math, have up to 182 levels of sorcerer, but I am not sure how Giant would handle epic levels here). Wish could produce both the teleport scene and the earthquake scene, if only because Wish can do anything.

Being a fellow high-level sorcerer might also explain the Lich's fondness for him.

A swarm would resist damage as we have seen from Miko and others.

Hiveminds are somewhat rare per the description in BoVD, hence the comment by the explorers.

Both the diminutive swarm rules and the BoVD existed at the start of the comic, so the timetable fits.

If the swarm is indeed roaches, it would explain why MiTD:
1) Is called disgusting at the circus.
2) Why the red demon roaches are always hanging around him.
3) Likes Belkar's bad stew, goes out for tacos instead of finishing the mission, exc.

Lastly, a monster that is so wrongly, stupidly broken like this seems exactly like the sort of rules-based silliness that Giant is so fond of putting in the comic.

Cons:

No clear explanation of where MiTD got such high strength, but if he has 182 sorcerer levels, (and the feats & stat adjustments that come along with it per BoVD), he could maybe use Power Attack to produce the results we see. Alternatively, Wish or some other epic spell he knows could do anything.

Criticism? Thoughts? Elements I have ignorantly overlooked?

[Tryfan]

No. For one thing, we are talking about creatures that can see through magical darkness, so you talking about creatures that can see only through non-magical darkness ("darkvision") is irrelevant. For another, you conflate regular darkness and magical darkness. Since magical darkness blocks darkvision, you cannot do that. Third, unless you tie this to MitD, I am done talking about it. I've gone through this exact conversation three times now and, frankly, I'm sick of it.

Grey Wolf

Appreciate you're sick of this but bear with me.

I was looking through for other evidence and came accross 147 where the MitD describes them as impenetrable shadows. This is well after #100, is not a being lit up thing and isn't childish.

It's pretty good evidence that he can't see through magical darkness.

It also makes it fairly unlikely he comes from a subterreanean background, or anywhere else that doesn't have sunlight, cool breezes and fresh air if he's so happy about going out into them.

I'd still like to know why he craves to be lit up when he can see, putting sunlight with cool breezes and fresh air means it is probably a tactile thing. For someone that dislikes being looked at it's odd.

On the Hivemind

Other cons could be:

Why only one set of eyes?

Not unrecognisable in the circus scene, and some insects swarm (bees for example) so probably not enough for 'I've never seen anything like it'.

High strength seems to be required for the tower scene, he initiated a competition on the basis of being hit physically.

How would a swarm be able to eat redcloak and spit out the amulet, I suppose they could eat his flesh and then release the amulet from the centre of the swarm.