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Thread: D&D Beyond Changes
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2023-01-18, 05:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
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2023-01-18, 05:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I posted it earlier but this is actually the sanctioned mod-created thread specifically for OGL talk.
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2023-01-18, 06:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
The only need for it to change is to accommodate things that v. 1.0(a) doesn't cover.
There's no need for it to change just because it's "old," if it still functions and does its job. And it does, except to those who want to end the OGL because they don't like the job it's doing.
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2023-01-18, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
Base Class: Warlord | Roguish Archetype: Inquisitor | Roguish Archetype: Thug | Primal Path: Rage Mage
Ongoing game & character:
Sajan Uttam, human Monk 6/Fist of Irori 3 (Legacy of Fire)
D&D/Pathfinder CV of sorts
3.0 since 2002
3.5 since 2003
4e since 2008
Pathfinder 1e since 2008
5e since 2014
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2023-01-18, 07:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I used Herolab for PF1 and enjoyed it well enough there, but did not try using it for 5e. For me at least, DDB is much simpler (I don't have to preload "packages" for instance, DDB has a mobile app, etc.)
That's more or less how it works now though. Sure you might have some groups where everyone has their own PHB, but I would guess groups where one person doesn't bring most of the books to share with everyone else are pretty rare. And even if it's a group where everybody has their own copy of the player books, WotC themselves have said that DM-focused things like the adventure paths are usually only bought by one person per table.
(Maybe I'm biased on this front by usually being the designated "whale" for my groups, but still.)
I think the idea behind the big sub is that one person is subsidizing the rest of the table anyway, so they can come up with extra value-add targeted at that individual for a premium price, and they will naturally cover the rest.
For example, DnDBeyond makes it so that the "whale" and the "DM" don't have to be the same person, and the DM, despite not being the owner of the content in question, can still restrict it from that player for that campaign.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2023-01-18, 08:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Related development, but DnD_Shorts had to retract a statement about a recent alleged leak. This may have been a different source, but we shall watch these developments with great interests.
EDIT: DDB posted to counter these claims.Last edited by Snowbluff; 2023-01-18 at 08:24 PM.
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2023-01-18, 09:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-18, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I'm sorry, but I'm not going to congratulate the guy farming rage clicks for doing the bare minimum and retracting after messing up. He wanted to be a pseudo-journalist, getting the opposing side before rushing to print is journalism. And yes, it was one thing to post only the damning stuff when there was nothing but radio silence from the other side, but they're being communicative now. Hopefully he learns from this and takes a breather.
Note that I'm not saying WotC's communication has been perfect either (far from it), but I'm not going to cheer when the guy who's been pouring gasoline on the fire kicks one log away.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2023-01-18, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
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2023-01-18, 10:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
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2023-01-18, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
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2023-01-18, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I mean, if you read the threads, there's a possibility that both of D&D Shorts's sources are accurate: the surveys WERE being read under the VP he trusts the word of, who is no longer there; the surveys are no longer treated with the same level of respect.
It is also possible people are just wrong.
Right now, it is less than safe to assume that "oh, this bad news about the surveys not being read is possibly just not true; I will wait and see and be quiet about it in the meantime," when, if the claims about them going unread are true, that is exactly the response that the malefactors want: "shut up and assume there's nothing malign happening."
So, the safe behavior is to act as if the surveys will not be read, and continue to be noisy and keep up the pressure. Sure, fill out the surveys, in case they are, in fact, read, but do not use the assumption that the surveys will be read as a reason why you should quiet down and let WotC assume the public firestorm has and will pass without them having to actually do anything substantive, and with them still planning to go through with what upset people.
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2023-01-18, 11:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Something something by the time truth gets up in the morning a lie has gone around the globe.
There's multiple points of failure here, but I will point out that at the very least he failed to properly vet a source before posting this information, and at the worst he did it for clicks. I want to give him the benefit of the doubt but I'm not seeing anything that makes these "leaks" have any veracity, and at the very least he could have asked one of the many publicly facing former and current WotC Employees for their opinion on the survey process first.
Worse still, misinformation is gonna make it more difficult for people to get meaningful feedback to WotC and will just kludge up the discussion with nonsense. As noted earlier, this was a top post on r/dndnext, it had a legs and everyone was acting like it was entirely confirmed.
If you do not know of which August based hoax I've been speaking of, here it is. I brought it up earlier because this confirmed fake has similarities to what we saw here.Avatar of Rudisplork Avatar of PC-dom and Slayer of the Internet. Extended sig
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2023-01-18, 11:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
WotC themselves specifically addressed that rumor. They read the surveys.
No, sorry but no, "yell just in case" cannot be the default answer to Every. Single. Rumor. Putting aside that that makes the entire community a very toxic and unwelcoming place to be, it will also just drown out every bit of actually legitimate concern and criticism that is being surfaced now and in the future.
And besides - even if "yell just in case" were the right attitude to have, then shouldn't filling out all the surveys anyway on the off-chance they do get read be the most correct course of action? Seriously, what's the alternative here?
Of course it was. I'd expect no less.Last edited by Psyren; 2023-01-18 at 11:49 PM.
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2023-01-19, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Actually, the truth appears to be that the leaker was referring to the text field boxes, which aren't read and apparently dumped into cyberspace. And at this point, DnD Shorts has attempted to clarify across multiple platforms, so I'm willing to cut them some slack. They're not a journalist by training or profession, they were right on the OGL, right on the internal culture at WotC, and right on several of the statements WotC released. That guy's trying to do due diligence without a safety net, and without getting people fired. I'm willing to cut him some slack.
Also, WotC is still lying about the OGL 1.1's being "drafts," so at this point I'm putting more credibility in "angry Australian YouTuber" than "billion dollar enterprise." Weird times all 'round.
I don't think that's the point - the point is not to get loud and toxic, the point is be forewarned that this company isn't your friend and will screw you given half a chance and a leaky condom. We should be cognizant of that.
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2023-01-19, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I wasn't gonna say anything, since it is off topic, but this has been refuted (by people saying they literally read it) to the point the tweet alleging they weren't being read has been deleted and an apology was issued. I don't need to say the thing about truth in the morning again, right? Just this heads up will work?
Furthermore, this is a shot taken at a group of people not necessarily responsible for spearheading OGL changes, the game design team. I think the animosity may be misplaced in this case.Last edited by Snowbluff; 2023-01-19 at 12:53 AM.
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2023-01-19, 12:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Again, he retracted that rumor, deleted the tweet and apologized for it. It's not true. And further we have not only official confirmation from WotC themselves that this is not the case, but also direct responses from WotC insiders whose very job it was to read those text fields, even under the current design regime (Tasha's, Fizban's etc.) So no, I stand by how I characterized his behavior - irresponsible, reckless even.
I'm not responding to the OGL part of your post, as we're not allowed to do that here - there is only one mod-approved place on the forum for that topic (over in General Roleplaying.)
Putting that... charming... visual aside, I can be cognizant and cautious without leaping at every shadow. Hey, I heard a rumor that WotC is making their own game console called the DnDBox 6e and all the new sourcebooks will only be released there going forward. Anyone can make up anything that sounds even slightly negative, and the chances it gets heeded are higher when everyone is upset, but we still have the power to be judicious with what we choose to believe.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2023-01-19, 01:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I had a whole response for this and I just about hit "Submit" when I realized I just don't care anymore. Christ, I'm so tired. All the lies, all the yelling.
I just want my game back. I want to be able to screw around with the exploration mechanics. I want to give my players double feats, 'cuz it makes them look like kids at Christmas. And it feels like I can't do that anymore.
So, screw it. I'm done. Bye.
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2023-01-19, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
If you stay at home and play with your friends nothing changes, there's nothing wrong with sticking your head in the sand and ignoring all of this.
It's worth it to be vocal for the benefit of the community but that doesn't mean you can't carry on as usual in private, just because WotC is making terrible choices doesn't mean you have to stop playing DND if you still enjoy it.
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2023-01-19, 02:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I'm not sure what to think about it. Your point is reasonable. It makes sense for D&D Beyond to just focus on the virtual tabletop and character sheet and 5e info aspects. But if they want D&D Beyond to be the one stop shop for all things D&D, it's hard for me to imagine that they wouldn't try to integrate voice and video. Roll20 and Foundry do, and they seem to be competing for the same sort of thing.
D&D Beyond probably won't supply any kind of automated captioning, though. It's a lot of work and it doesn't seem to be their expertise.
Oh, dang, that sucks about your group. Hope you can find new ones.
That's funny. Meet used to cram profanity when there wasn't any, too. I can't recall any funny stories, though.Last edited by TaiLiu; 2023-01-19 at 02:07 AM.
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2023-01-19, 04:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I genuinely don't see what's stopping you, but okay.
I mean, they might. Personally I don't know anyone who uses Roll20's integrated voice, it's awful and Discord exists. (Similarly, I don't know anyone who uses World of Warcraft's integrated voice, it's awful and Discord exists.) But I'm sure there are folks out there who do.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2023-01-19, 08:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I believe the fear is that the lockdown to "you MUST play this using D&D Beyond" (at any subscription level) makes it a lot harder to have homebrew like adding extra feats.
Now, of course, one of the reasons WotC's plans seem so asinine to me, as we currently have them portrayed to us, is the fact that I don't see how they compel people to use D&D Beyond to play D&D. They're pricing themselves out of most of their market, competing with people who buy the physical books.
The other fear I could see would be, "I had hoped forever for exploration rules, maybe by a third party. I don't see WotC ever making any, and now I see them trying to shut down anybody else doing so. I don't feel I have the time/chops to make them, myself."
In any event, the concern I have about WotC's strategy is that it seems to be, once again, "cut off all alternative choices to how we want you to pay to play the game." Which would have to include denying physical sales of books if they really want to have a "walled garden" where you must pay that $30/month subscription fee (even if it's a per-DM fee, rather than a per-player fee).
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2023-01-19, 09:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
I wonder how much of a benefit the community really sees, or could see, about the results of being vocal. Big publishers already showed they're willing to jump ship and come up with a new system, which gives us more options and is a win, and small content producers can always jump on board that wagon if they want. Smaller content producers frankly just don't get much attention so I doubt there's any great net loss (for those who don't want to jump ship). People who publish on DMGuild/DriveThru already have other agreements in place, and those are the two biggest venues for distribution for the small content producers. A lot of homebrew you find online is questionable. To your point, you can always do whatever you want in private. Sure D&D has name recognition and is generally a easy medium to get a game going with new people, but you can still do that.
People want to make their voices heard, power to them, I suppose I'm not convinced that keeping the status quo would have actually been a net benefit comparatively. I think I'm much happier with the direction this is headed since it provides me with more options.
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2023-01-19, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Where did they say you must use D&D Beyond for anything? What did I miss? Genuine question. Physical books will still be a thing in 1D&D as far as I know.
1) The $30/month was confirmed (just like it was in August) to be a hoax. And without sounding harsh, common sense should have shown it to be too; how could D&D of all things possibly get away with charging a higher sub fee than any MMO or streaming service known to man? I mean sure, corporations gonna corporation, but even they know when they're using a pricing model that even the most unsavvy consumer can easily compare to other services they pay for.
2) As previously noted, I'll reserve any OGL/third party publishing comments for the mod-blessed/monitored thread.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2023-01-19, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-19, 11:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
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2023-01-19, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
With the $30/month off the table, perhaps that's not going to be the case. But the "walled garden" that we're told/seeing evidence of is a problem for them if D&D Beyond is to be something enough people use at a high price point, if there exist things outside that walled garden, such as physical books, physical play, etc., without being on D&D Beyond.
It's not "corporations gonna corporation" so much as "they were dumb enough to think that this OGLrevocation'update' would be a good business decision, so I can buy them thinking $30/month is also a good business decision."
I can trace the logic chain that leads to thinking it's a good idea. It's based on the same kinds of awful, stupid, totally false premises that lead to things like the OGL 1.1. (I am not going to discuss its contents, here, I only am saying the same mindset behind that could easily lead to the $30/month price point.) After all, MMOs make $30/month at the high end. We (D&D) are The Most Popular RPG In The World; we are obviously high end. If we eliminate all possible other ways to play, obviously everyone will pay to play at MMO prices!
It makes all sorts of assumptions that don't understand their market, of course, but I can easily buy that the people making the top-level directives think their market is like "any other" (read: whatever market they think is the norm, possibly, if they're Microsoft executives like I've heard, the electronic/digital market), therefore they can do things that that market would (barely) permit to this market (which totally is the same and definitely won't simply abandon the product).
Now, hopefully, because I actually like 5e and would like to see more content made for it, all of this proves either wrong or at least to be something that gets walked back and changed to being an actual business model that understands its market.
I am all for monetizing the game. Let Hasbro and WotC make enormous scads of cash! That's great! But I want to see them doing it in ways that enhance the product, not just make the product harder to access if you don't cough up more cash. That latter path sounds a lot easier than making quality products, though, to guys with spreadsheets, and also tends to lead to diminishing quality and higher prices. There is a serious risk that these decision-makers think they can quell competition rather than recognizing that they'll simply destroy their own central position in the market doing this. I don't want WotC to lose its central position. (I am not going to say it's a bad thing if they do, but I am not unhappy with the status quo.) I think it sad that they're acting in a way that will damage them, damage the D&D brand, and possibly make gaming better in the long term but make it worse in the short and medium terms.
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2023-01-19, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
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2023-01-19, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
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2023-01-19, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: D&D Beyond Changes
Minor quibble I guess, I can't find any that cost that much - EVE is the highest I can find at $20/month if you pay monthly (discount if you buy multiple months at once), with most others hovering around the $15 mark (WoW: $15, FF14: $13-$15, ESO: $15, SWTOR: $15, Runescape: $11)
WoW is undoubtedly the most popular MMO, still, closely followed by FF14. They're half the price of the $30 point being proposed.