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2020-10-17, 05:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
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2020-10-17, 05:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
You keep walking around the same circles. We've answered your questions. You demand citations while not providing any of your own (or explaining how they support your claims).
The sole point of disagreement right now is whether yours is the only interpretation of the RAW that fits the RAW, or not. You have not provided any evidence that it does. The rules citations you have provided support the ruling and interpretation you keep claiming are "house rules," and you have not provided citation to support it. When challenged on this, you try to discuss the definition of "wield." When your definition is shown to be inaccurate with how "wield" is commonly used, you say your argument doesn't center around the definition of "wield." I expect your next step, if the pattern holds, will be to try to walk us through the argument for why you feel that a thrown weapon is no longer wielded by the time damage is dealt.
We've discussed that to death. We agree: you can interpret the rules that way, if you wish. We disagree that it is the only way to interpret them, and you've still yet to provide citations from the RAW which specify that only your interpretation applies.
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2020-10-17, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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- Montevarchi, Italy
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
"Returning Weapon
Prerequisites: A simple or martial weapon with the thrown property
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it, and it returns to the wielder's hand immediately after it is used to make a ranged attack."
From Eberron Rising From The Last War, was quoted twice. It specifically calls somebody that threw a weapon as its wielder. If you go back through the posts you'll find the quote from JNA and Zhorn.
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2020-10-17, 05:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-17 at 05:59 PM.
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2020-10-17, 05:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
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2020-10-17, 06:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
We have not agreed that it has changed how many hands are wielding it when it strikes the target.
“How many hands does it take to wield a shuriken?” “Well, that ninja wielded one in each hand.”
At no point does it make semantic or colloquial sense to claim the ninja was wielding the shuriken in zero hands.
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2020-10-17, 06:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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- Montevarchi, Italy
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
...am I missing a point? Haven't you asked the same thing six times now?
On a general language level, yes.
On a RAI level, yes and is also still considered in one hand until both attack and damage are resolved.
On a RAW level, yes and there is no explicit section that says it stops being in one hand until the attack and damage are resolved. At least none has been found. Obviously the opposite is true also, there is no section that says it stays in-hand until fully resolved. Which is what Segev is saying, both rulings are RAW.
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2020-10-17, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-17, 06:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-17, 06:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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- Montevarchi, Italy
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2020-10-17, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2020-10-17, 06:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-17, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2014
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- Avatar By Astral Seal!
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
But they do indicate the RAI.
You can claim they’re not RAW and be accurate.
But you can’t claim that the developers saying something doesn’t indicate RAI.
Moreover, you’ve yet to prove that your reading is the only possible correct one. It is a technically correct reading, but not the ONLY one.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2020-10-17, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
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2020-10-17, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
You can use the JC Tweet if that meets your standard. The tweets however do not meet the official standard
JC Tweets have been officially declared as unofficial house rules. The official FAQ is the contents of the current Sage Advice Compendium. The JC Tweet is not in the current Sage Advice Compendium.Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-17 at 06:22 PM.
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2020-10-17, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
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- Maine
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2020-10-17, 06:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
That is not what I said. I said that it makes no semantic sense to claim that it ceases to be wielded mid-throw. I also said that there is nothing in the RAW that says that the number of hands wielding it changes between the attack roll and the damage roll. You've yet to provide citations from the RAW which prove me wrong, here. Since I am asserting a negative ("There is nothing in the RAW that...") I cannot cite rules that call it out. However, proving my negative assertion incorrect is as simple as citing rules that do, in fact, say what I claim the rules are silent on.
Neither JNAProductions nor I (nor any other poster in here) has asserted that your interpretation of the RAW - that it can change the number of hands in which it is wielded between the attack roll and damage roll - is a house rule. It is a valid, if questionable to us, way to rule the RAW work.
We are also claiming that a valid interpretation of the RAW - and therefore non-house-rule-ruling - is that the weapon is wielded in the number of hands it is wielded in from start to finish of the attack, changing state only when the attack is resolved.
You have asserted that that is a house rule. In order to justify that assertion, it is you who must provide a citation that supports your claim. Please show me in the RAW where it says that the number of hands in which a thrown weapon is wielded changes specifically between the attack roll and the damage roll.
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2020-10-17, 06:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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- Montevarchi, Italy
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
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2020-10-17, 07:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2018
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- Space Australia
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Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Essentially if TO thinks they can use it to support their specific view then they'll treat it as acceptable... up until it is shown to support a counter argument or demonstrate an intended interpretation that goes against their very specific definition, in which case it would no longer be valid for any reason.
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2020-10-17, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
I have made neither assertion.
I have agreed that it is "wielded" when it is thrown and it hits the target and deals damage even though it is not in one hand when it hits the target and deals damage.
Also, I have made no claim that the number of hands wielding it changes between the attack roll and the damage roll. We are talking about a thrown weapon so the weapon is wielded when it hits the target and deals damage and it is not in one hand (or any hand) when it hits the target and deals damage.
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2020-10-17, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-17, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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- Montevarchi, Italy
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2020-10-17, 08:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-17, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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2020-10-17, 08:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
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2020-10-17, 08:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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2020-10-17, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
I am saying that when a thrown weapon hits the target and deals damage it is not in one hand (or any hand).
As long as the character has permission to make a ranged attack (the Thrown weapon property gives them that permission) they can throw the weapon and roll to hit.
"Thrown: If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged Attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that Attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee Attack with the weapon. For example, if you throw a Handaxe, you use your Strength, but if you throw a Dagger, you can use either your Strength or your Dexterity, since the Dagger has the finesse property."Last edited by ThorOdinson; 2020-10-17 at 08:56 PM.
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2020-10-17, 08:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2017
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- Montevarchi, Italy
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2020-10-17, 09:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
But you are still not answering what I am asking.
Here I will break it down into simple yes/no questions about each step.
1. Can a character attack with a weapon that is not in their hand?
2. Can a character do damage with a weapon that in sot in their hand?
I am not asking about any "hit" or such. I am asking about two mechanical resolution steps in the game. Can you answer the simple questions please?
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2020-10-17, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2020
Re: Quick questions: javelins with dueling style and natural weapon proficiency
Where do the rules say this? Where are these rule mechanics you speak of? Citation please.
The rules explicitly allow a draw to be made as part of the action used to make an attack. Draws involve a change in hands (from zero hands to two hands)
"You can also interact with one object or feature of The Environment for free, during either your move or your action. For example, you could open a door during your move as you stride toward a foe, or you could draw your weapon as part of the same action you use to Attack."
So the rules don't agree with you.