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2023-01-25, 10:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Better alternative than stat-less races
Like many, I don't like the way D&D 5e moved away from racial bonusses. I understand why: from a game-mechanicaly point, as long as there's a train of thought you should max out your main ability score ... then races not boosting said score simply won't be an option. And that's a bad thing.
Imagine you want to make Auroth, a brutal Orc Sorcerer.
Orcs don't get the sorcerer casting stat? too bad for you.
But I like to look at things from a narative point of view.
From a narative point, there's no problem with a half orc fighter and an eladrin fighter being equally capable - but it doesn't make sense they'd be equally strong. After all, while the half orc's mighty swings might cleave through armor, the elf's graceful strikes draws blood between the plates.
high elf fighter, orc fighter, gnome fighter ... STR20 the lot of them
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That's why I suggest something else
combat style scores
Auroth, Orc, Acolyte Sorcerer 1
Str 14 (+2) Dex 12 (+1) Con 16 (+3) Int 13 (+1) Wis 10 (+0) Cha 11 (+0)
Weapon 12(+1) Defense 13(+1) Toughness 16(+3) Mysticism 16 (+3)
Athletics (+3), Arcana (+3) Religion (+2) Insight Skill (+2) Intimidation (+2) Persuasion(+2)
AC: 11, hp: 9
Quarterstaff. +3 to hit, 1d6+1 damage.
Spells +5 to hit, DC 13
There are four combat style scores:
- (WPN) weapon (attack & damage)
- (DEF) defense (AC, initiative)
- (THG) toughness (hit point)
- (MYS) mysticism (magic, innate abilities, ...)
At character creation, you put 15, 14, 13, 12 in them. Then add a +2 to one and a +1 to another. Every time your ability scores increase, you may likewise pick these scores to boost.
(Dirty little secret : mechanically, combat style scores are just what your standard array abilty scores would be if optimized them. )
Your combat statistics are caclulated from those.- Your sword doesn't use PROF+STR, but PROF+WPN, and the damage is 1d8+WPN.
- Your AC is not 10+DEX but 10+DEF
- ...
Auroth Might be strong, he's not quite melee focussed, so isn't that good with his quarterstaff.
Quarterstaff. +[proficiency+weapon] to hit, 1d6+[weapon] damage. (instead of strength)
in Auroth's flavor he uses bloodmagic, he's ability to manifest powerful spells despite not being that charismatic.
spells use mysticism instead of charisma to cast spells
Most things are common sense, but it's important to note that sometimes classes fuse two fighting styles.- barbarians mix toughness & mysticism (their abilities work on CON)
- monks & rogues & rangers mix weapon and defense (they attack and defend on DEX)
- hexblades fuse weapon & mysticism (they attack on CHA)
while SAD classes might virtually not use certain abilities (ex. melee for wizards)
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Or would you rather have a halfling swashbuckler-style fighter who uses taunts and feints as defense? A sword wielding elf fighter (a slashing sword, not a rapier)? A strong smithy dwarf artificier, ... These, and much more options are now viable options - without having to trade in flavor for game mechanics.Yes, tabaxi grappler. It's a thing
RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.
Alucard (TFS): I do things. I take very enthusiastic walks through the woods
Math Rule of thumb: 1/X chance : There's about a 2/3 of it happening at least once in X tries
Actually, "(e-1)/e for a limit to infinitiy", but, it's a good rule of thumb
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2023-01-25, 10:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
I certainly like this more than the idea that races are just skins with no choice/consequence. I think races should have certain tendencies that differentiate them from each other. Using point buy for ability scores alleviates some of the impact (especially for SAD classes), but it comes down to choices. I believe playing an elf barbarian who's a little bit weaker but noticeably smarter than the typical barbarian is better than all barbarians being exactly the same. This isn't a competition among the players. Dare to be different.
However, I think you're going down a difficult road for little gain because there are systems out there that support the "build whatever you want" concept. GURPS and Rolemaster come to mind. They're certainly not as popular as D&D, but going with a system that does what you're looking for is much easier than building a new system on top of one that doesn't do what you're looking for.
It's one of the reasons Rolemaster is my favorite system (with MERPS being my favorite setting). The crit tables and absolutely insane spell list are two others. It's lack of popularity is why I haven't played it since 2003, so... yeah.
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2023-01-25, 11:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
And this is TSR and later WOTC should have thought up weapons and ballistic skills like WHFRP should have been to prevent such an issue with racial ASI's, or at least Dwarves who aren't good (more so with bad Dex) with Crossbows despite being associated with them in fantasies.
(Though WHFRP is a lot different than DnD in terms of gameplay and idea, namely it had a literal lawyer and ratcatcher as character classes along with its origin as miniature war game.)Badly drawn helmet avatar drawn by me.
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2023-01-25, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
What's wrong with an elf having 20 strength? Even in Tolkien, just because they weren't walking around looking like Charles Atlas on creatine powder, they were still smithing plate and going toe-to-toe with things like trolls. Finrod literally wrestled a werewolf with his bare hands and won. The notion that X race should always cap your capabilities below Y race is silly, and doubly so when we're talking about PC adventurers/heroes from those races.
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2023-01-25, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
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2023-01-25, 01:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Personally, I wouldn't leave those out either. It may be less likely to find a very strong hobbit but is it impossible?
When discussing fantasy species there are two aspects that seem to get confused. There are the strengths and weaknesses of a specific species on average and then there are the abilities of a specific individual within that species.
The baseline bonuses for specific species (which are being phased out for player character creation) represent the averages for that species not the capabilities of any one individual.
Allowing player characters to choose which abilities to enhance is just allowing for individual variation within each species based on nature and the choices of the characters. Depending on the world building involved, each fantasy race could easily have the same potential as any other.
I don't see any issue with an individual kobold with a strength of 20 even if the average for the species might be a bit less.Last edited by Keravath; 2023-01-25 at 01:09 PM.
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2023-01-25, 01:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Not to mention, small races already have less ability to utilize their strength (see grapple limits and the Heavy property.) You don't need a strength penalty to make them feel different. PF2 dumped stat penalties too and I haven't seen pitchforks and torches anywhere.
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2023-01-25, 02:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
I'm not a big fan of race penalties, but at my table there will always be race bonuses. That said, of all the abilities, the only ability score that ever comes up as "unrealistic" is Strength. No one gawks at a genius goblin or a charismatic dwarf.
I've also never liked caps for most abilities for PCs, monsters certainly don't have them. But it seems sensible to cap Strength based on size, not race.
So, my house rule is a cap of 20 for medium, and a cap of 13 for small (originally, I had it at 12, but multiclassing requires 13), and a cap of 26 for large or medium with powerful build.
I suppose a small race with powerful build would have to be higher, say 19. I don't know of one, but there could be.
I have no caps for any of the other scores based on race or size.
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2023-01-25, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
That's... That's REALLY harsh.
If you want to be a strength-based class on a small PC, you're looking at being down one or two points of bonus at level one, and four points of bonus by late Tier Two or early Tier Three.
And it makes playing a Goliath, Firbolg, or other Powerful Build race unneededly strong when playing the same-the equivalent of a Belt Of Cloud Giant Strength (a Legendary Item) if you max it out.I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2023-01-25, 03:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Because it's easier to link appearance with physical attributes, while mental capabilities are set entirely arbitrarily. Warcraft goblins are geniuses, Golarion goblins... not so much. But it's pretty unintuitive if 3'6" tall, 35 lb halfling can be just as strong as 7', 350 lb musclebound hulk of an orc (or whatever).
It's Eberron, not ebberon.
It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals break loose.
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2023-01-25, 04:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
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2023-01-25, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
It also makes Strength-based classes (arguably the most simple classes-run to enemy, hit with weapon, repeat) have even less incentive to branch out.
Normally, it takes two ASIs to max your main stat. You can start at 16 easily, so +2 at levels four and eight (six for Fighter) nets you a 20.
With this rule, it'd take five ASIs to max Strength. Start at 16, then +2 at levels four, eight, twelve, sixteen, and nineteen nets you a 26. A Fighter has room for two feats besides that, but a Barbarian doesn't.
Even if you roll for stats, get an 18, and have +2 Strength from race choice, you still need three ASIs to max it-more than starting with a 16 needs. You wouldn't be encouraged to look at picking up a fun flavor feat, or shoring up defenses, till level sixteen (twelve for Fighter).I have a LOT of Homebrew!
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2023-01-25, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
If the Orc has Powerful build then the halfling isn't as strong as them. They can make use of their strength to a similar effectiveness but a 10str orc can lift as much as a 20str halfing.
This is why I really like the Giff's Hippo Build. It makes them strong in every way except in combat. So a 10str Giff is equal to a 20str halfling in pretty much any way that matters. Honestly more races should have things like that. Like, if you want elves to be naturally dexterous giving them advantage or +1d4 or something to dex checks does way more for them than +2 dex.
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2023-01-25, 07:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-25, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Personally enjoy the lack of stats tied to races so that races can instead impart other things onto a character. Would be more into balancing individual race abilities instead of just having them have fixed stats.
Especially since, when it comes to fixed stats, you'll inevitably have races that get flexible stat distribution + good additional bonuses.
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2023-01-25, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
It is pretty much the reason we aren't elephant-sized gorillas - there is a tradeoff for adding more biomass such as energy consumption and gestations period. If you can have the biomass of a gerbil yet be as strong and durable as an hippo, why bother with the extra biomass negatives? Thats the part that comes off as unintuitive. Its not just pure biomass either - complexity requires the same tradeoffs too, like intelligence factor.
Essentially, what it comes down to is, does the extra capability provided outweigh the extra cost when it comes to survivability as a species? Usually, specialising offers greater returns than trying to do everything, hence why we are not elephant-sized gorillas with high intelligence, shark like jaws, and venomous claws. Hence, the previous stat bonuses for different races/species/ancestry showing what their evolution specialised in for survivibility.
The only way I can think to justify this is that until recently (in evolutionary timescales) there was no magic, so things progressed as normal. Then magic comes along and basically says nope. It feels like a cop-out.
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2023-01-25, 09:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
You'll notice when people get all up on "certain lineages should just have higher stats than others!" it's always Strength they fall back on. I think this is due to a massive fundamental misunderstanding of the Strength stat, how it's used, and what it means.
People like to whine that a Gnome and a Goliath can both get a 20 in their Strength stat as though that makes them identical, when it absolutely does not. Goliaths, Firbolgs, Orcs, etc. all have Powerful Build. Almost anything you can think of that is a display of raw strength, lifting an iron gate, pushing a boulder aside, carrying the unconscious bodies of all of your allies back to town, are affected by this ability, and they are much better at it than lineages without. On the other hand, Small creatures have reduced capacity in these exact same areas as well as an inability to use the biggest, most damaging weapons.
The STR stat is a measure of application, how good you are at applying your physical strength to achieve an end. Any martial artist will tell you breaking boards/rocks/whatever with a chop is far more about technique than raw muscle power, this is why a lot more of them are built like Jackie Chan than Arnold Schwarzenegger. And the same goes for swinging swords effectively (I've seen a lot of good arguments that if we wanted realism, all weapon attacks should be made with Dexterity).
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2023-01-25, 11:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-26, 12:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
There was recent errata that lets every
raceancestry simply choose +2/+2. The results of this were predictable.Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2023-01-26, 01:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Personally im far more bothered that its so rare we can play something that isnt humanoid. Warforged arent constructs, dhampir arent undead, firbolg arent fey nor giant, tieflings arent fiends, genasi arent elementals, dragonborn arent dragons, goliath arent giants, and so on. Its only pretty recently we have branched out a bit to fairies and plasmoids such, and the system just isnt well geared to support PCs being types other than humanoid
Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2023-01-26, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
That's another great example.
<insert off topic tangent how one can't just compare D&D elves with Ńoldorin Elves elves>.
But I 100% agree with you - "What's wrong with an elf having 20 strength?".
- Findrod was also master of the bow ... but even with Tasha, how many STR 20 archers are out there? Not a whole darn lot of them.
- Finrod was also "fairest of all the princes of the Elves". How many fighters are there with 20 charisma? Close to zero unless they mutliclass into charisma classes.
I'll in fact step it up a notch: "What's wrong with anelfmonk having 20 strength?".
That's exactly what this sytem does.
- Like tolkien elves, elves are naturally graceful. Other races are naturally more inclined towards strength (half orcs, etc...). It perserves that
- but you aren't shoehorned into your abilities because of your class
It allows you to make "fairest of all the princes of the Elves", despite in combat you being a fighter and not a bard or sorcerer.
Powerful build
- Not all strong races have powerful build
- Other races would also require simelar abilities
But ultimately, this doesn't solve the narative question.
People are different - and they all would use their strengths to beat their foe.
- A strong character - regardless of race - will use mighty blows
- A graceful character - ragerdless of race - will use precise strikes
- A charismatic character - ragerdless of race - will use taunts and feints
- ...
Top of my head I can recall 4 real life rapier styles - and that's one weapon for one race.
But in D&D a halfling and a goliath wouldn't haven't figured out different ways to use the same weapon???Yes, tabaxi grappler. It's a thing
RFC1925: With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea.
Alucard (TFS): I do things. I take very enthusiastic walks through the woods
Math Rule of thumb: 1/X chance : There's about a 2/3 of it happening at least once in X tries
Actually, "(e-1)/e for a limit to infinitiy", but, it's a good rule of thumb
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2023-01-26, 02:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
I would just half the bonuses from ability scores and double bonuses for proficiency.
So like say a 5th level char with 16 strength, would get a +7 to attack rolls, +1 from strength, +6 from prof.
It solves this probem real quick of classes working but not needing ability score to ride.
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I like powerful build and heavy weapon thinking, a small sized creature can still be very athletic, which is the prime concern of the strength score, so good at climbing, swimming, fighting, etc. But that doesn't have to translate to dead lift. I saw a homebrew version of kobold that traded the -2 strength for slim build (strength halved for carrying capacity), I much prefer that way of thinking, as str in dead lift terms doesn’t usually mean much in combat.My sig is something witty.
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2023-01-26, 06:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
I think it would be simpler to just say: "You can pick which stat you use for combat and magic", so a fighter could choose int for attacks, a sorcerer could use str for magic, etc, and the players would need to fluff it accordingly.
An average halfling could have a strength score of 6, but without it forcing players to have a -4 to strength; after all, the players aren't meant to play average members of their race. Similarly, the normal strength cap for halflings could be 14, but there could be circumstances in which halflings could get stronger than that - like worshippers of a god of strength, or halflings blessed by such a god, or some other explanation. So a very strong halfling could be as strong as a very strong goliath, but it just won't happen naturally.
There could be two types of limits regarding stats: "soft" limits, which require special circumstances to overcome, but not exceedingly difficult, and "hard" limits, maybe like having more than 20 in a stat, which requires a being to be truly above mortal limits.Last edited by akma; 2023-01-26 at 06:01 AM.
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2023-01-26, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Correct. There needs to be - unequivocally - something player-facing that says that having a stat higher than a 14 (+2) is kind of unnecessary, due to bounded accuracy. And what you should want is a more-rounded character with 14s in everything, rather than a 20 in one stat, and 10s in the rest (and at least a 12 in Dex and/or Con). And you need to design the entire game around having a 14 in every stat, which basically means re-writing all of the classes - and nope, not even 1DD hit the mark.
D&D lends itself to min-maxing. Some species aren't good for min-maxing. Therefore, some species aren't good, full stop.
You need to to remove the cause - not the symptom. You need to tell players that they don't want to min-max.
Imagine you want to make Auroth, a brutal Orc Sorcerer.
Orcs don't get the sorcerer casting stat? too bad for you.
You get Relentless Endurance! As a backline caster, I don't really need that.
You get Savage Attacks! I said, as a backline caster, I don't really need that.
Yes, you can trade Intimidation for Persuasion or Deception, maybe. Sure. Fine. But the latter two abilities simply don't make sense for most Sorcerers, and so, there are simply other non-stat bonuses from other races that are just better for a Sorcerer. Not even counting the ASIs, Tieflings get Fire Resistance. Fire Resistance is incredibly helpful for most of Tier 2, and then some. Unless your DM is specifically removing fire-damaging creatures from their bestiary.
TL;DR
I don't want Half-Orcs to lose +2 Str, +1 Con.
I want Str and Con to matter for a Sorcerer. Or a Wizard. Or a Rogue...Or anything.
You have a Fighter with 8 (-1) Cha? Cool. You can't Taunt/Provoke. (In this case, all Fighters can Taunt/Provoke based on their CHA score...Fighters with a very high Cha score can Rally.)
Your Barbarian has an 8 in Int? Well that sucks. Now you can't do the thing that Barbarians with at least a 12 in Int, can do.
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2023-01-26, 06:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2015
Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
If you need to basically duplicate most attributes, then something isn't working correctly, under a paradigm like this you should eliminate the 6 attributes.
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2023-01-26, 09:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Worksa. Malifice (paraphrased):
Rulings are not 'House Rules.' Rulings are a DM doing what DMs are supposed to do.
b. greenstone (paraphrased):
Agency means that they {players} control their character's actions; you control the world's reactions to the character's actions.
Second known member of the Greyview Appreciation Society
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2023-01-26, 10:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
I am confused… so far I have seen several examples and with their new UA system all of them work. It gives everyone the options to do what they want.
You want a smart Elven barbarian or tough half orc sorcerer … move your stats to accommodate. You want to your elven barbarian to be cookie cutter stat wise … well the new UA system lets you do that too.
No one should be forced to play their character to fit someone else’s RP.Last edited by Melil12; 2023-01-26 at 10:26 AM.
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2023-01-26, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Better alternative than stat-less races
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2023-01-26, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2023-01-26, 12:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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